when reading Fire and Blood I didn't care much for Aegon character when he was introduced as this lazy, unambitious sot. But as the war progressed I couldn't help but notice his resilience, courage and intelligence and root for him. It's remarkable how quickly he grows into his role as king and how devoted to his cause he becomes by the end. He is determined to reclaim his father's throne, to restore order to kings landing by putting down the rebellion and punishing the insurgents, make peace with his enemies, he already plans to marry a Baratheon girl not for love but for duty to get an heir again. From the irresponsible, lazy drunk he supposedly was you would expect him to be vain, selfish and hedonistic, someone who only pursues his own pleasure and expects others to do the hard work, but no the hardships and responsibilities shaped him into someone who takes duty seriously. Even though prone to make rash, and imprudent decisions he also had the favourable quality to listen to the counsel of wiser and more experienced people around him and nearly always follows their advice. I think towards the end of the Dance it's painfully clear he is a better ruler than Rhaenyra.
That's exactly right.😩That's exactly who Aegon was in the books, and that's why I sided with him during the conflict. There was growth and development throughout his story in Fire and Blood. You could even say that he succeeded in the goal that his mother set out for him, because he was told that Rhaenyra was a usurper that would kill him if she were allowed to sit the throne, and that he needed to get rid of her first before she got to him and murdered him. In the end, though he had been reluctant to be a part of the ploy in the beginning, he ACTUALLY DID IT! It was a struggle for him as he had to fight, get hurt and learn to get back up even despite his injuries and disabilities, but HE DID DO IT! There's something admirable about that, and poignant even. He was given a huge responsibility and he stepped up to the plate; but I don't think that the writers of the show will handle his story with the same kind of care as it was given in the book. I think that (to a certain capacity) he'll be villainized 'til the end. 😤😤😤 On the show, they made Aegon into someone that the audience can scarcely root for: a drunken sot who r*pes women and watches children fight to the death in the pits of Flea Bottom. It's difficult to even empathize with him knowing all of that, and I doubt that the writers will give him a redeeming character arc like the one that you just described. They like Rhaenyra and believe that she is the rightful queen (and the true protagonist) of the entire story, so she'll continue to be whitewashed and her arc will be handled with care and poignancy 'til the end of the conflict. I doubt the same will be said of Aegon's arc in the end, but I hope that I can be proven wrong. 😔
@@thecriticalmaester9702 Rhaenyra (competence to laziness) and Aegon II (laziness to competence) literally switched roles. Aegon II fought in the war and his war scars likely gained more fealty and respect from his soldiers and loyalists. Rhaenyra is a coward who never fought in the war and did not bring her dragon into battle. Rhaenys did what Rhaenyra could not and actively fought in the war on her dragon Meelys and died a true warriors death.
I don't know if you'll ever read this comment, but I'm curious what you think of the second season of HotD? It's obvious the writers took away all of Aegon's traits that made him competent as King and ruler, and instead are making him into a joke character that, at best, you feel pity for, and at worst you feel hate towards. I still like him though, as much as they're trying to ruin him, he's my favorite character this season.
@@LeondmaDema well you know, in the book Aegon was a main character. In the show he's literally nothing. He's not a hero and he's not exactly a villain. And it's not like that people don't like him, actually he been fan favorite in reddit from the start of season 2. But what I can say about season 2 is that Aegon is a fresh air. Everyone are just so boring. He's the only complex and funny character. And almost everyone with a healthy mind can agree that he's the best written character in the show. But ofc some black fans have a mind of a teenager and can't think like an adult. Or are too stupid to admit and see that team black are so boring. One of the best thing about Aegon that I always admire was his bravely. They took it from him. He wanted to escape and he got drunk and go to fight. If you read the book you will understand that Aegon's core is love while Rhaenyra's core is hate. Aegon did everything because of love that he hold for these around him. Now from the leak they gonna take Aegon's motivation which was protecting his family and give it to Daemon. They always take everything good about greens and give it to blacks. But I saw Tom, the actor saying that Aegon gonna change from Richard II to Richard III. If you don't know, Richard III is a cunning, ruthless man who is discontented with the current atmosphere of peace in his country. When his nation was at war, he had a clear role to play, and people appreciated him. Richard wants to become King no matter who he has to kill to get there; he kills everyone who stands in his way. Jealous and crippled, Richard of Gloucester wants to be King of England and uses manipulation and deceit to achieve his goal. He murders his brothers, nephews, and any opposition to become King Richard III. In the end, Henry of Richmond raises an army, kills Richard in battle, and becomes King Henry VII.
@@thecriticalmaester9702 oh well he's now a fan favorite and I think it's a good new that Tom, his actor, said that Aegon gonna change from Richard II to Richard III. Richard III was a cunning, ruthless man. He was also crippled and he killed everyone in his way of becoming king. Richard III, Ivar the boneless and now Aegon are very much alike if you can see it.
I think Rhaenyra's reign is doomed to end with civil war. She gave birth to bastards and legitimate children, married Daemon and didn't have a great relationship with her siblings, basically leaving them feeling unsafe. The war would happen either way during her life or in the next generation. And even though I think she wasn't a bad person, she also wasn't a great politician. Like, the way she handled Vaemond's situation in the book was a sign that she had tyrannical tendencies. So, what's the point of supporting team black if they can't provide stability or make good political decisions? Aegon is not so much a worse politician than her, but at least he has better advisers and legitimate children as heirs
Exactly. But the show doesn't show her tyrannical tendencies because they want her to appear to be the hero of the story - the girlboss. I don't think that they understand that neither side has clean hands in this war.
@@thecriticalmaester9702 But they do show her demanding the torture of a child who has just been mutilated, and destroying the honour of a man then shrugging it off like it was no big deal or was not supposed to have any consequences. And she's even worse in the book? Ouch!
@@Ares99999Its a loss for everyone. Having half of your family line lead to future betrayals and rebellions and eventually off the Ironthrone itself is not a win
exactly! how the narrative continuously whitewash the black faction and tries to shove them down our throats made me dislike them so much. the fandom (mainly team black) being insufferable and delusional also makes in deep analysis and constructive criticism harder to make, since grand portion of the fandom seems to enjoy being the worst possible rendition of a character cult. how the show uses of the audiences' modern political lenses to promote itself as some kind of "revolutionary show" also doesn't sit well with me.
A Song of Ice and Fire has always criticized the social norms of its world. Monarchy, War, patriarchy and prejudice have always been shown as something bad in books. And the faction that received the most doses of whitewash was the Greens.
@@pedrolevipereiracarvalho5832 I think you misunderstood my comment. I am quite aware that ASoIaF criticizes the setting of its world, everybody is miserable for a reason. What I'm trying to say is that HotD's writing is not on par with that of ASoIaF regarding the moral greyness of its characters. The show has a very clear bias and is not shy to make it evident. Sure, let's give Rhaenyra a white hart to symbolise her as the "rightful heir". While we are at it, let's make up a prophecy of the threat from the North and have that as her main motivation for getting on the Iron Throne. Let's also make Aegon II a rapist who watches his own bastards fight to the death for entertainment. I don't know about you but I don't like when the writers of a show tries to make a character seem better in comparison to the other in a very personal conflict moved by self interest that it is and is adapted from. I want to make my own conclusions and not have the narrative doing it for me. By making it a Good Vs Evil conflict the themes and setting the show is trying to criticize rings hollow. The only characters who were whitewashed from the green faction were Alicent and Aemond and even by far it doesn't compare to the characters from the rival faction, mainly Rhaenyra, who in contrast to her book counterpart is portrayed as the protagonist of the show.
You have pretty nicely summed up my distaste for the blacks(show). It is very clear who the show runners want us to be rooting for and that is kind of annoying. To be clear I think most of the people on both sides of the conflict are scumbags in some way or another but yea it rubs me the wrong way the show trying to dictate to me how I should feel about it.
ASOIAF is better when the writers don't show their hands and treat the characters as flawed people rather than a fanfic about their political goals. The Dance was never about female rule, about how Rhaenyra should've ruled because she had the "calm temperance" of a woman. GRRM never pulled any punches to show that women could be just as bad as men. I'd rather they just laid everything out neutrally and let the audience decide what to take from it.
My biggest problem woth the show is that they're clearly trying to make the black faction out to be the good guys, when in the book its very clear neither side is truly good. Martin wrote the civil war to be realistic, but I saw this coming with how society is now, thst regardless of how they wrote it people would still favor the black faction because its woman fighting for her thrown against a sexist world. But in reality they're all power hungry monsters.
No they are not. They won't just make Rhaenyra bad in season 1 because her progression or decline will come as the story progresses. They have shown her flaws, they have shown her as a savior for women lol.
Greens are the best option for the realm. Their rule would also be more stable. Aegon has two legitimate sons as heirs, which secures a peaceful transition. In contrast, Rhaenyra's heir is a bastard, whose ascension would likely lead to war, either between Jace and Alicent son's (their descendants) or between Jace and Daemon's sons.
That's very true. Because the Green faction's members are actually politically astute, Aegon's situation would actually result in more peace and political harmony. People overlook these things because they don't like the Green faction in the first place.
Even if Rhaenyra had become queen without issue, there would still be a Dance of Dragons. Rhaenyra's sons are divided between the "Strong Bastards" (her sons with Harwin) and "Trueborn Targaryens" (her sons with Daemon), sooner or later the realm would divide in two factions anyway. Rhaenyra is the cataclyst of the dance, not Aegon II
I never thought about that, but it is 100% correct. The questions of the legitimacy of her children by Harwin, allegedly by Laenor, would not end because Rhaenyra gets the crown. Her children by Daemon have stronger claims AND they have Daemon there to help them. Someone, probably Daemon, would challenge or undermine Rhaenyra's bastards.
@@darriuscole8544not really,why risk his position as king consort in case rhaenyra find out when his daughter is already marrying jace and his blood will inherit the throne anyway
Viserys should have taken a more active role in raising and disciplining Aegon to be a more decent person and named him heir to spare the realm and his dynasty irreparable damage.
Yes...but he did not. Sadly, that is the tragedy of Viserys 1, and the House of the Dragon as a whole. That's what makes it so engaging and complicated.
@Yumiiyumi- No bc the only reason Rhaenyra even has a semi legitimate claim is because Viserys declared her his heir. If he declared Aegon his heir nobody would support Rhaenyra besides maybe the Velaryons bc of her marriage to Laenor.
It's always odd how Team Black, despite knowing Otto being the Hand for 2 Kings, and how the 7 Kingdoms haven't burned under his years of rule when the King wasn't able, never gives Otto and even Alicent and other Greens credit for the ruling of the Realm. Even Rhaenyra, albeit in a quick manner, had to say to Daemon "what do we know about ruling a Kingdom", and while it was meant as a slight (saying Otto rules instead of Viserys, to see how they'd react to this) it was also very true. Otto actually had Political tact/acumen, and was just speaking the facts whenever speaking of the manner regarding succession and laws, etc.
Maybe because he threw it all out of the window out of greed. Reminds me of that "great" university professor who was 75 and refused to retire and the university wouldn't say a thing about his pure incomoetence because he had been a great teacher in his youth. Sure, no one is denying he had a brilliant mind and was a great teacher when he was 50, but as it is now, he is the WORST teacher I've ever had. For starters, because he didn't even teach at all. Everybody failed his subject unless they were in private classes and he made everybody who entered his bureau cry because he was a cruel bastard who enjoyed humiliating the students he otherwise didn't give a damn about. All he did in his classes was writing unintelligible numbers in the blackboard for 15 minutes, we copied them, and the rest of the time he talked about his family like a mad man (who he surely was). Otto may have been competent, but his later actions led the kingdom to war. He was competent then, he is not now, just a manipulative power hungry bastard who is willing to sacrifice everything to gain its goal. There's no worst leadership for a kingdom who wants peace than a power hungry one who doesn't give a fuck about anything but his own personal goals.
I think thats because Rhaenyra is so deadset on her and her sons ruling that she doesnt think ahead to the consequences of what she is doing. Even if she has the entire green line killed, we know from Maegors reign that rebellion is will always be there if you go against the system that has kept the peace. So Rhaenyra is willing too risk the entire Targaryen line for her selfish actions
@@goodaimshield1115umm this story is fiction, don't spew half passed ideas dumbass, I'm trying to have fun. All I Hear is 75 blabla and blabla and blabla.
The Hightowers are like the Tyrells in GoT. They are skilled politicians and aren't problematic. Margaery Tyrell is similar to Alicent in some ways. Both of them are dutiful and law-abidding women. Their sense of duty comes from the fact that they respect customs and traditions which Rhaenyra does not. Both the Hightowers and Tyrells possesses soft power. Their ability to pull the public to rally beside their back is impressive compared to the Targaryens whose power comes from the ability to threaten anyone with their dragons and soldiers. Also, Rhaenyra has no regard for the public or her subjects as if their support are of no consequence. Rhaenyra is a tyrant just like Cersei and to see her as a "feminist leader" is absolutely crazy. Rhaenyra's has the name and the blood to claim that she has every right to rule but Alicent and the Greens also have that and more. They have the blood, name and skills to rule if I were a Westerosi person I would definitely rally behind King Aegon and the Greens.
There are a couple of subtle scenes to show how Otto is a great administrator. He sits down and talks about taxes on textile products. This is something Daemon would never sit down to talk about, he doesn't have the patience, Otto does tho.
At first glance, Otto seems like a terrible person, but when you think about it carefully enough, you realise that he is actually a great politician and is absolutely right about most things. He is actually quite a descent guy. All that he does, he does for his family. Everyone else is like that on this show, so why should he be villainised for it? He is actually just trying to protect and secure high positions for his own kin - and he is great at it. He made his daughter the queen of the Seven Kingdoms (the most powerful woman in that world), and now he is trying to secure the Iron Throne for his grandson. He actually succeeds at this, too.
@@thecriticalmaester9702because his choice are very disruptive to the crown lmao. If he didn't sold allicent to the living corpse that is Viserys, The worst that would happen is Rhanyera marrying Daemon and have him be her king consort.
@@nebunezz_r Viserys was hardly a corpse back then. The only thing Otto did was to push Alicent to become close to him. After that it was king's decision to marry Alicent, Otto could have only hoped for it to happen.
Honestly that’s what am saying the only reason Viserys is king is because the realm choosers a man instead of a woman. And she somehow expect to place her bastard children in the line of succession after her thus stealing the birthright of not only her own younger children whit Deamon but her siblings and their children’s birthright
Lets just say Rhaenyra sits the throne and she dies after. Do people genuinly believe Daemon would allow bastards to sit on the Targerean throne? Lets say he doesnt mind. Its unlikely his legitimate sons and their descendants would agree for bastards to sit the throne. So either way. Rhaenyra fucked up. What most people dont get is, aside from her manipulating people and circumstances, what her main problem is, having bastards. Had she not had bastards, I think her cause would be tolerable. And even then, by Viserys naming her heir, he invalidates his own claim which he won by being a man. So there is no legitimate reason Rhaenyra sits the throne.
Lets just say it was not possible for laenor to sire children( they barely even tried because rhae gave birth to jace barely one year after their marriage) rhae should have tried to sire children with another velaryon( coryls or vaemond) so no one would even guess her children are not leanors. It was simply stupid to sire children witha brown haired dude
One has to remember that Daemon is far from being father of the year. So, who's to say he won't play favouritism again. That is once Rhaenyra becomes queen of the iron throne. I mean, he already does with his twin daughters. I'm certain once she begins her reign, Daemon might start to prioritise his children over hers. He will do everything to assure that his line remains on the throne.
@@veraanastasiaramirezrozas1633 he does show that he favors his own children over Rhaenyra's. When Jace is upset with Baela for playing "kissing games" with other boys; Daemon doesnt care. Also if Nettles was really Daemon's kid then he proved that he would put his own dragonseed above even her.
@@kentroberts2545 no it isn’t. All that it proves is that Rhaenyra is a bad choice for a queen. And so is Jace for an heir. At least from a traditionalist point of view.
Ya know, Rhaenyra's whole situation regarding not actually caring about Tradition and Duty was amplified with this; Birthing not just one, but three Bastards to placed in line for the Throne above the King's trueborn male heirs was incredibly stupid. Her position as heir is already a precarious one. Even Ser Lyonel was very upset and scared about the situation, and for solid reason. Harwin is VERY lucky Viserys is a pacifist king, particularly to a fault. Also, for those who say otherwise; no, the Strong boys don't have more Valyrian blood than than their Uncles/Aunt. We can discuss that more if you guys want...
The issue for bastards like Joffrey, Myrcella and Tommen is that their legal claim comes from their father Robert, who as we know wasn’t actually their father. If you say, legitimised Joffrey, he would literally have no claim to the Iron Throne. The three ‘Strong’ boys get their claim from their mother, so the father matters much less. Legitimise Jace, he has a legal right to the Throne. Also, I’m not sure the purity of Targaryen blood matters all that much. The Strong’s and Alicent’s kids are both half Targ and dragonriders. If dragons only liked purple eyes and silver hair then Jace wouldn’t have one, and Nettles later on definitely wouldn’t tame one.
@@realdaggerman105 being a bastard is a issue even if jace is legitimised he would have no claim because even legitimised bastards can't inherent anything before a trueborn child if after legitimization jacees claim would have been weak against other claims even his claim on harrenhall would have been weak because house strong also have many trueborn heirs bastards can becomes heirs if there is no other trueborn children alive just like jon Snow can't inherent winterfell after legitimization because bran and rickon are still alive and just like that joffery can't inherent casterlyrock because there are to many trueborn lannisters
@@amelancholybear1534 What have I misunderstood? Legitimise Joffrey and he has no claim to the Iron Throne. Legitimise Jace and he is legal heir over any younger true-born children?
@@amelancholybear1534 Why this attitude? No need to be rude. Bastards or illegitimate children ( I don't like the word bastards very much ) have 2 biological parents who are not married. Jace, Luce and Joffreys parents are Rhaenyra and Harwin. They are not married. Technically they need to be announced as bastards first to be legitimised. So it would be Jace Waters ( born in the crownlands ), who then becomes Jace Strong after legitimization. Which is why the 3 are called Lord Strong. Because that is their actual title. With that they would be in line of succession of Harrenhal, the seat of house Strong. You could argue that Rhaenyra is heir to the iron throne and that they would be in line of succession there as well. But legitimate children come before illegitimate. So the line of succession if we take Rhaenyra as Viserys named heir and ignore precedent and the council of 101 and pretend she never lied about them and never comitted treason is: Rhaenyra, Aegon the younger, Viserys, Jace, Luce, Joffrey. They are not actually in line of succession of Driftmark. Baela, Rhaena and Vaemond are in that order in line. Because sons before daughters before uncles. Now with illegitimate children like Jace it really is a problem. Dies an illegitimate child have more claim than a legitimate uncle? I'm not actually sure. Could be equal. This would be the situation, if! Rhaenyra would have been honest. Because she lied, she comitted high treason, which technically throws her out of line of succession. So having bastards is not the problem, lying about them is. Without Rhaenyra the line of succession is this: Aegon the elder, Jahaerys, Maelor, Aemond, Daeron, Aegon the younger, Viserys, Jace, Luce, Joffrey. I know it is complicated, but that kind of is just how it is.
The delusion of black fandom is based on the fact that they believe that Rhaenyra's progressive attitude of doing whatever she wants and breaking the status quo, they have the childish belief that everything would be a peaceful transition towards equality between men and women. . Totally wrong, there would have been fights between the heirs and the older sisters for all the 10,000 lordships of Westeros, none of the black lords had their eldest daughter as heir no matter how much they supported Rhaenyra and this would only have made these daughters or not their descendants will be alive. They would claim the lordships with fire and blood, the reign of Rhaenyra and Daemon was a guaranteed cataclysm.
Exactly. The Greens might be framed as the villains, but their cause is more plausible and would lead to peace and stability. Aegon's claim, as I said in the video, is strengthened by several things: male primogeniture, historical precedent, and the symbols of legitimacy. His claim is certainly the least troublesome one. It's interesting that the show presents them as the villains, because his claim is the same as Stannis’s one in Game of Thrones. Rhaenyra's claim is not in accordance with cultural customs, and her son's claims are as legitimate as Joffrey, Tommen and Myrcella's were - which is not at all. Even if Rhaenyra makes it clear that Jace is her heir, you're right, some lords might be uncomfortable being subject to a bastard king. They might feel more comfortable championing Aegon or Viserys's claim. Conflict is inevitable with the Black cause.
@@thecriticalmaester9702 That’s completely wrong, Raenyra’s bastards are more legitimate than Cersei sons for one reason: Raenyra is the Heir and future Queen, and not a queen consort like Cersei. This puts Raenyra in the same circumstance as Robert. Tecnically, the tens of bastards of Robert Baratheon are more legit than Joffrey, Tommen and Myrcella.
Remember when Rhaenyra was questioned by her dad if she fu**ed Daemon and she just said "None of these would matter if I were a man"? It was never about women's rights for her but the right to be as messy as any man
Not to mention that she doesn’t realize men who whore around and sire bastards are looked down upon too, maybe not as much due to being men not women but they’re still reviled. One of the many things people hated about Aegon was his siring of bastards and whoring just like Aegon the Unworthy and Robert Baratheon. Does she not know men who whore around and sire bastards aren’t exactly praised? They’re seen as dishonorable. Not to mention those men also are not expected to claim those bastards are legitimate and try to get them titles and honors and wealth they are not entitled too nor do they deserve or elevate their bastards ahead of their own legitimate children
Simplest argument for the Greens: If Aegon was King, he'd just get drunk while Otto, Alicent and later Aemond ruled the realm for him. If Rhaenyra was Queen, she would sit back and let Daemon turn the realm into a bloodbath on her behalf. Seriously, if the phrase "King Daemon Targaryen" doesn't terrify you, you weren't paying attention.
There is also the fact that the populace supports Team Green. We even know from the books that a riot which kills many of the dragons is what defeats Rhaenyra's regime in the end. Some nobles do support Team Black, in fact, if we count them all, more nobles supported Team Black than Team Green, but the commonfolk want strong male leaders and admire gentle, loving female figures-which Team Green gives them in the form of Aegon II and Queen Helaena. The commoners are repulsed by Team Black which consists of Rhaenyra, a lustful princess who had bastard kids, and Daemon, a rogue prince who is literally one part Homelander (he justifies rule through power) and one part Judge Dredd. (LOL Police Brutality) So of course the people will prefer Team Green. If Westeros was a federal republic, Team Green would win the election hands-down. If we factor in the modern media culture and how it works, Rhaenyra would get hounded by the paparazzi and slammed for her many scandals, and Daemon would get condemned for police brutality, whereas Queen Alicent's piety and Queen Helaena's sweetness would win over the crowds to Aegon II.
THANK YOU!!!! YES!!! I have always been behind Greens. Like if Rheanyra didn't have bastards i would still say Greens have better claim. LIke I rly dont understand how ppl get diasly manipulated by the show to root for Blacks. Yes I love Daemon as any other guy but that doesn't matter. Viserys was a bad king. I will always stand by that. Rheanyra is driven by selfishness, Viserys by inaction and Daemon by being blinded by his own might.
People that support the Blacks are way too willing to overlook the fact that Rhaenerya did not earn the respect of her kingdom. They will scream and shout about how the deck was stacked against her because she was a woman, but then they just expect that to change that viewpoint she should have actually built relationships, been at court and show her political skills. She needed to sway public perception in her favour and at every turn she disrespects everyone and spends her time hiding at Dragonstone... instead of doing literally anything to make her seem legitimate.
@@archmaester6594 from men in her close personal circle. She only cared about herself and those she was close with. She inspired no such loyalty from anyone else. And people being willing to die for you doesn't make you a good leader either... She did not take the steps to prove herself when she was already at a clear disadvantage. She needed to sit in on councils and show that she could rule. She should have stayed the course with Laenor and or married someone else when she was given the option to choose to gain political advantage and have legitimate children. Because I'm sorry , in a patriarchal feudalist society, where blood-right and gender are the core of the power structure, who is going to support the woman who shamelessly had an affair and tried to pass her bastards off as her husbands children then killed said husband so she could run off with her crazy uncle who everyone views as violent and unhinged. No to mention she ran away from the political side of kings landing because her son took his uncles eye out. She looks really bad when you don't view it from her perspective, heck she looks bad even if you don't look at it from the greens perspective and just from the position of a standard Lord. She did nothing to earn her rule, she was always going to be at a disadvantage but the greens were the only ones who meaningfully prepared for the dance which indicates they would be better rulers. Then her rule and then Jace being heir allows for questioning of succession, and all the high Lords, must be cautions because if a Woman or a Bastard can sit on the highest seat of power in the realm, whats to stop their sisters and bastard children or half siblings from taking their seat from them. I mean that is a serious topic and it's why Cat doesn't like that Jon has been raised true born, because it makes him a threat to her children and grandchildren's rule. These power structures are the only thing that keeps the people in power in their position of power, they hence want and need the system to remain in tact, and these are the same people Rhaenerya needs to support her and all her actions have actively worked against them. She can be a better person than Aegon but she failed to do the groundwork for herself and her family.
In a medieval setting, being crowned and anointed are the most important symbols of legitimacy. They give you the regnal numbers. Even if Aegon was entirely deposed and all his legislation was burned he would still go down as Aegon II. The crowned and anointed ruler who is actually sitting on the country's throne and controlling the state is the true ruler by definition even if there is someone with a theoretically better claimant out there. Being the official ruler and being the rightful ruler are not always the same thing, though here half the realm would argue that he is in fact the rightful ruler and not just a usurper king. His ascendsion in precedence in the Targaryen dynasty upheld thrice over. The whole point of monarchy is so there is no fighting over power because of a clear succession. By definition this type of succession is determined by rules that are consistently applied so that there are no competing claimants. Precedent therefore is one of the most important factors, especially if its the only reference point to go on and there is no succession law. Medieval kings couldn't really choose their heirs. The only times they even tried to name heirs was usually when their families were gone, and even then it was usually ignored. Hereditary offices do not work this way. Your claim comes from pedigree and its relation to the inheritance rules of the time, not being chosen. Medieval kings couldn't do whatever or kill whoever without justification either, least of all high lords. Team Black on the whole is the complete antithesis of this idea because they are all about doing whatever the hell they want because they have dragons. That's their real claim to power. Everything about them is a rejection of Westerosi society so they have to take power with Fire and Blood. The Greens have everything else.
That was the ideal. But in reality peaceful succession was incredible feat. Many were settled in house via infanticide, assassinations e.t.c. Like the Ottomans did. But others poured out into the rest of the realm in the form of civil and continental wars. To me, neither of these two, that is, Rhaeneyra and Aegon, would have made good rulers. It was lucky that neither ruled for long. Rhaenys was always the best choice out of all candidates in the timeline.
There has always been fighting over succession. A monarchy never guaranteed who would succeed. At most it was a strong suggestion backed by who had the more powerful military. A cousin didn't automatically inherit because he had himself annointed before a nephew. We know that GRRM drew heavily on actual events in English history for this story. The War of the Roses was a result of a succession crisis. Both Matilda and Elizabeth I were named heirs before living male relatives despite the laws.
@@LPno.9 There wasn't always fighting. Elizabeth's ascension was fine. Matilda was challenged because of the unpopularity of her Angevin husband with the Anglo-Normans and because she was a woman. All the usurpations during the Wars of the Roses happened because of political and economic instability. There are always some political, social, or economic reasons behind every usurpation beyond just claim disputes. If you as an heir are in that situation it usually means your father or predecessor screwed up bad.
@@user-ti5cw1ug6l There were wars and other crises of succession throughput English hisory. Elizabeth's succession was not fine. She was disinherited by her father and brother, and imprisoned by her sister. Her mother was killed for not providing a son. She had challenges by cousins male and female who considered her illegitimate. The Anarchy was a succession crisis regardless of the reasons you choose to give for it. And that's just England. The point is that there's nothing strange or unusual about the story in HOTD.
6:16 Not to mention the small folk although they don’t show it on the show which sucks, LOVE Helaena. She was much beloved by the commoners as an exemplary consort. She wasn’t a great beauty but her kindness and fertility served well. She had two legitimate sons (even if one had a birth defect) and a sweet daughter. When she committed suicide the people really really stepped up in their hatred of Rhaenyra calling for justice for Helaena. Having a consort that loved really helps garner support for Aegon because not only do the people get Aegon as king but they get a really wonderful consort as well. It really gives them the edge over Rhaenyra whose consort Daemon isn’t nearly as beloved but rather feared and/or reviled.
Actually he is, he made the proud Valarians his servents, dunking them into service, Robert forgave Targ. supporters, only reason lowly Valarians sirvived. @@Ares99999
@@Ares99999 he really is. he acknowledges rhaenyra as a traitor in the book. "Traitors have always paid with their lives... even Rhaenyra Targaryen. She was daughter to one king and mother to two more yet she died a traitor's death for trying to usurp her brother's crown."
@@hazeinheaven Yeah. Thing is, Rhaenyra was a girl, sto Stannis is hardly going to say the girl should have been queen. Westeros, aside from Dorne, is a patriarchy.
As it’s written in fire and blood, Princess Rhaenrya had grown stoat and never lost the baby weight and was deemed as less attractive after aging out of her youth whereas queen alicent had remained rather slim and physically attractive, I do think people would be less likely to favour Rhaenyra if she were book accurate, just an idea though. I am definitely on team black but it’s important to note both parties are flawed and imperfect.
True but you can’t deny there is a biased in the show and most people hate aegon and can’t see they have a claim to also blacks out number greens and they use that to justify there right and use hateful rhetoric
I draw into question if the character descriptions are accurate when the events may not be written by a maester especially considering that fire and blood seems to slander Rhaenyra way more as a person I say thisbin particularly becase Daemon is portrayed more favorably than Rhaenyra so far e.g... The books say he loves his daughters and was jn live with Laena but this is something we don't really see He seems more found of her but always wanted Rhaenyra but not the great lve described in Fire and blood D also comes across like a terrible dad to both daughters All this tk day the Rhaenyra hate seems to be inorder to justify that women should not rule ( sexism ) Alicent didn't really rule so she would be looked at favorably The women who is all about serving the men in her life whether its her father , husband or son I even question if Rhaenyra was even ugly at all Rhaenyra' s gosport al physical appearance is at question as much as anything else in Fire and Blood E.g... Was she sabotaged leading to the sack g of the dragon pit Did sexusm come into play with her getting blamed for stuff Aegon and her father allowed From season 1 it's clear the common people get treated terribly anyway It's u likely Rhaenyra did much different from the man who were thre but was criticised harder She might have become a scape goat for a already damaged system which is very George RR Martin
@@shippendales8543blaming sexism as the reason to her being seen as incapable is not very grrm, things are much more complex than that in the game of thrones. women ruled too in the game of thrones although not in the same way tht men do, the literal acting lord of the reach is a woman alicent held so much power for years in kings landing and her father's influence only increased it. before that we had queen alyssa and her daughter, they don't all care that much about the difference in men and women as you might believe, they understand politics and war and all that brings with it. arguing that the sole reason maesters wrote anything bad she did was false propaganda is very biased in favor of her, think about it she never really got good tutelage for ruling her father didn't either nor did deamon or her mother how would she be an incredible ruler when she didn't care to learn how to go about playing the game of thrones. she never in the show or book showed promise except for that one moment she considered giving the crown for peace.
Which *_"SIDE"_* would have been chosen by: House Stark under Ned? *_Team Green_* House Baratheon under Rob, Stannis or Renly? *_Team Green_* House Tyrell? *_Team Green_* House Lannister under Tywin, Joffrey, Tommen? *_Team Green_* House Lannister under Cersei? *_doesn't matter; she's lying anyway_* House Martell under the men? *_Team Green_* House Martell under the women? *_team black_* House Greyjoy? *_Team Green_* House Targaryen under Viserys, Daenerys? *_Team Green_* House Mormont under the men? *_Team Green_* House Mormont under Lyanna? *_"...knows but one king whose name is Stark."_* House White under the Night King? *_Team Green_* House White under the wights? *_team black_* House Baelish? *_team black_* then *_Team Green_* then *_team black_* then *_Team Green_* *_team black_* then *_Team Green_* then *_team black_* then *_Team Green_* *_team black_* then *_Team Green_* then *_team black_* then *_Team Green_* *_team black_* then *_Team Green_* then *_team black_* then *_Team Green_* *_team black_* then *_Team Green_* then *_team black_* then *_Team Green. . . . . ._*
Thank you! I hated when it is set up as the blacks vs greens is a "good vs evil". In George rr martin books shouldnt be base on fictional "good vs evil". But in real life of "the heart vs heart"
@@thecriticalmaester9702 The Greens are much more likable in the show than in Fire and Blood. Aemond kills Lucerys in an unintentional accident and Alicent usurps the throne because she misunderstood her dying husband's words. In the books, they are worse.
@@pedrolevipereiracarvalho5832I agree but i just wanted more of a "realistic base" show that tangle between human nature/behaviors that don't show a good vs evil. But real humans vs real humans.
The whole point of Martins books is there is no simple black and white good v evil, it's a grey world of competing interests, no mortality involved. The real world, in other words.
I never viewed the Dance as the side that's trying to maintain law and order vs the side that's changing the status quo. Most of the Blacks don't truely care about changing male premogeniture. At least in the books, Rhaenyra doesn't care about women or bastards having equal rights, just that she's the exception to the rules.
Team black fans are wishful thinkers. Like Rhaenyra, they believe shes destined, just because her dad believed it? And us as fans know ....shes not, its not her right, and its a big misunderstanding, she WANTS it to be her but its not, and the entire war ia in vain. Both sides are just crabs in a bucket now, no one is the good guy.
The show had Daemon kill his wife, something not found in the books, and Rhaenyra and Daemon murder a poor servant to supply a body for the Leanor caper. There are no real protagonists in this saga. They're all antagonists; difficult to root for.
But does the narrative dwell on those acts? Does it condemn Rhaenyra or Daemon for doing those things, and paint them out to be villains? Do they suffer repercussions for those actions? No to all of the above. But it does for all of the Green faction' characters.
@@thecriticalmaester9702 Sure. Since we know that in the end, it is the Blacks who win, might as well see them as the better party. When the dust settles over this war, it will be Aegon III, sone of Rhaenyra and Daemon, who will sit the throne.
@@Ares99999 Blacks don't win, Aegon iii was the last remaining trueborn Targ left after everything, and he didn't give a toss about the civil war, he remained traumatized all throughout his rule and was disgusted by the sight of Dragons, the civil war merely weakened the Targs overall, neither faction really "won" because Aegon and everyone after him completely and ubiquitously accepted male primogeniture anyways, thereby delegitimizing Rhaenyra's claim lol
Given the recent episode, you're more right. Aegon is trying to prove himself a competent ruler and he even wanted to mentor his son as well. He's the better choice. Rhaenyra is called maegor with tits for a reason. Daemon also is evil and its scary that people still support this psychopath given that he ordered a kids death and crippled and killed his wife among other things.
I remember having an argument on Instagram with someone why Greens are legitimate. But she couldn't understand. She was thinking it through her feminist mind.
"Hold up, let me just superimpose my 21th century progressive sensibilities onto a medieval feudal society in order to make sense of it" - her, probably
I think it's a bit tricky to say the least. While the Blacks are hardly ideal, nor are the Greens. Let's look at the facts. Viserys rule was largely peacefull and relatively uneventfull. But was that truely because Otto was such a great Hand and Administrator? Or was it because the realm was doing 'just fine' and he didnt rock the boat? Was it because Viserys was cautious and didnt act on a whim, to the point that people decried his inaction? What substantial crisises did the realm face at the time? The only thing that comes to mind are the Crabking and his Pirates at the Stepstones. However Otto didnt take care of this, Daemon did and with personal risk and bravery - albeit it had taken him longer than expected. It is also irrefutably true that Otto was scheming behind the King's back... supposedly to his benefit, BUT without his knowledge... and without his knowledge that he 'didnt have to know the details'. I can understand how a wise and reliable advisor might do this in order to insulate the ruler, especially if it involves more nefarious and unsavoury deeds that Realpolitik so often requires... but that wasnt the case. While it isnt a fact, it DOES appear that Otto did enrich himself and his 'allies', not nessecarily to the detrement of the realm, but intentionally, frequently and with little restraint. There is a reason why Otto Hightower was despised by many. Eventually the King himself grew tired of his scheming, conniving and manipulation and replaced him. A man who according to our sources provided plenty of good council and was every bit as good as Otto as an administrator... that is until he met his fatal end... under mysterious circumstances. Much to Otto's gain. It WOULD seem suspicious, dont you think? So I wouldnt nessecarily say that Otto was that great. I dont think he was incompetent, but other than clinging to power for the sake of power, there was no greater Agenda, while Viserys was always pre-occupied with the legacy and prophecy of the Song of Ice and Fire and the Prince that was promised. Who wanted to keep the realm relatively strong and unified no matter what. Ultimately I think it's hard to say who's truely in the wrong or in the right. I personally would tend to the Blacks, afterall Rhenyra was the chosen and named successor by her Father and he NEVER disinherited her. All the influential and powerfull Lords were there and swore their fealty. This alone should be reason enough to ACCEPT it. However I cant deny that Rhenyra in her youth was utterly careless, disinteressted, directionless and... abrasive to say the least. Her bastards make things complicated for the succession and unless they willingly step aside for her true-born children with Daemon would most likely lead to another succession crisis. That said. While Aegon and Aemond are sons of their father Viserys and if we are simply going by the andal custom of agnatic-cognatic primogeniture, they would stand to inherit the throne before Rhenyra, Viserys DID appoint her as his chosen successor. Aegon is every bit as careless and slovenly as his older Sister, only paired with the fact that he is also quick to anger, short of patience and has not received ANY formal training on how to rule. If we are talking about competency then Aemond FAR outshines his older brother in MANY ways. Ultimately no matter wheter you wish to give Aliscent the benefit of the doubt, the whole thing was a power grab by the greens and a blatant one at that. Truth died alongside the Counciler and the Captain of the King's Guard in the very same night. For Otto this was all nothing more than to put the supposedly easy to manipulate and controllable son of his equally timid and obedient daughter onto the throne in order to ensure that he could rule even longer and do as he wished unopposed. But this massively backfired and Otto underestimated how many people despised him and his House and how many Nobles remembered the oath they swore to Viserys. Otto and the Greens KNOW how their legitimacy solely relies on customs (which throughout history always had exceptions to the rule) and ALL the symbols of power and legitimacy that they could grab and hold on. How stable do you think would be his claim without these symbols and if he wouldnt sit right in King's Landing? While I say that the Greens have a few exceptional and arguably competent individuals on their side, they also have a number of abhorrent and terrible, selfish people on their side and in their closest circles. Anyone who denies that Daemon is a hothead and a wildcard is a fool. Anyone who claims that Otto isnt a conniving manipulator who is only out for his own advantage regardless of the cost is blind. Of course I cant tell which is truely worse, but while I see the issues of the Blacks, I cant unsee the crimes of the Greens and therefore my sympathies have to lie with the Blacks.
I feel that similarly to the realm being ruled by Bloodraven under Aerys I, Otto would be ruling even with Aegon on the throne. It's a different scenario for someone like Aegon IV and Aerys II who want the power of being king to enact their cruelty, but Aegon's entire schtick is to be free from having to rule. Though he's an unequivocally bad person, the realm would still ultimately be ruled by a responsible leader in the form of Otto
Rhaenyra sucks. She already faced legitimacy issues being the first female leader of the seven kingdoms, then she chose to drag her feet picking one of the suitable match’s fighting over her, then she had a brood of children who are obviously bastards. Like she has no sense of responsibility or duty, she just wants the throne because she wants it.
I feel "tourists" of the series to tend to equate alicent as the bitchy step mother like in Cinderella which gives everyone the wrong impression with hightowers as mischievous when they were the only other house besides velaryon to marry in to the royal family.And when aegon becomes king he pretty takes his destiny in his stride and does whats expected of him for a king at the time.
Great video as always! It's hard to find good videos about the Green faction, but you've consistently made great ones, thank you! I'm not particularly for one faction over another but it annoys me when people side with one and refuse to understand the other, and this happens a lot with Rhaenyra's fans unfortunately. The Dance of the Dragons is interesting because it pits two sets of compelling characters against each other, with an actual political dilemma at the center, not because there's a good side fighing over an evil one.
Thank you for the kind words.💚 I very much agree with you on this point. I think that many people (after watching my videos) might get the idea that I despise the Black faction, but I don't. I actually like some of those characters, and I even understand their motivations, but I hate the fact that the Green characters on the show are not handled with the same level of empathy or understanding as the Black characters. The Green faction actually makes a lot of good points for why they believe that Aegon should be king, and in the book those arguments are presented fairly and quite compellingly. So why did the show choose to omit those very valid perspectives? It's actually very frustrating to think about, especially as a big fan of the books - a fan who is very much familiar with George RR Martin's writing style. As you said, the Dance of the Dragons is particularly interesting because both sides come with interesting points and the result is an intriguing political dilemma. It's not a war of good versus evil. 🙄
@@thecriticalmaester9702 I feel exactly the same, the show is very one-sided, even when it tries not to be (taking out Alicent's agency was a big big mistake imo, your video on it was very good). I'm pretty sure everyone who knows me via twitter think I'm fully Team Green just by how I was defending them when the show aired, but in reality when I read Fire and Blood I'm very much in-between. GRRM is a master at creating characters that feel human and complex and understandable, and it unfortunately often gets lost with the adaptations :/
Omg! I feel the same way. Thank you so much. That's why I hated when one is painted as good vs evil. It should be based on "real world" for George rr Martin books
I think you guys aren’t aware of the attention span of the audience. The people producing the show want as many viewers as possible and many cannot follow complex politics. The same reason why they didn’t make Tyrion turn in the last series the way they let let others turn good like Jaime even though the trial and what followed clearly turned him
Stannis is not a kind man but he is a good man in a cruel world. He foes what he has to for the good of the realm because he believes westeros will be better off with him as king. And I agree with the mannis
I think your doing a amazing job keep makeing amazing videos love how you go into detail and as a person that supports aegons claim it’s very hard because there’s so many people that have a biased opinion and will say anything to get there point across team green all the way
i aggre with you green council members are better at ruling and rhaneyra keeps insulting the great houses of westros she insulted lady redwyne on aegons name day she and her father also insulted Jason lannister she also insulted lord dondarrion
I aint never rooted for Rhaenyra because she is the definition of an abuse of power. She is what today would be comparable to one of those nasty sorority girls who would lie and prosecute an innocent to cover up their own lies. Fans of her ignore all her faults because emma is attractive.
This!! THANK YOU! It drives me crazy that no one acknowledges that greens would likely be better rulers and that even if Rhaenyra peacefully ascended the iron throne a war would have broken out regardless. It’s crazy how many people just ignore the fact that Westeros is set in the Middle Ages, cause that IS an important factor when analyzing or even just following the story. Rhaenyra having illegitimate children DOES matter. Her not following traditions DOES matter. Her council having very little experience DOES matter. Having Daemon be king consort DOES matter!!!! Now Rhaenyra 100% has a strong claim and should be queen but her own decisions and choices throughout the series are why she isn’t. Rhaenyra is a women and as awful as it is, that is gonna make people fight her claim. However, I think if she made smarter decisions such as keeping with tradition, not naming Jace as her heir, staying in Kings Landing instead of Dragon Stone, having Viserys crown her before he died, building her relationships up with Lords who would eventually have to choose between backing her and Aegon. While it’s unfair she would have to do all these extra things just to claim what was promised to her, it would have helped her claim immensely. I think Rhaenyra could and would have been Queen if she had acted more like the greens cause like them or not, they are far more politically savvy which is what was needed.
I thought I was the only one who thought the greens were the better option. Otto is not so bad as everyone thinks. True Targaryen born children, male heirs. Alicient has pretty good morals. The blacks are so unstable I won’t even get started on them..
I just want to say that if Alicent Hightower and Cersei Lannister were switched, the neither the Dance of Dragons nor the War of 5 Kings would have happened.
Well I think with that is the the "show" wants to show us as the north should always remains as the good guys. That's why I hated it when the westernlands always treated as they're the evil guys. It should be based on "heart vs heart"
If I was a Westerosi lord I would definitely support Aegon. The oldest son is always the heir, he doesn't have three bastards as heirs, he has good advisors of noble, respected houses, Rhaenyra and Daemon are total wild cards in comparison. His claim just makes the most sense from the perspective of the typical Westerosi lord interested in upholding order and their laws and traditions.
Having listened to all of your "pros" on the side of the Greens, I'm honestly not surprised that the show hyped up the Blacks so much and tried to give the main members such positive leanings 😅 They kind of had to!
Even, Rhaneyra know she was going in ti war with the time, she even doesn't know all the dragons that has in power, was Damon who name the dragons even the eggs that the have, is an complete incompetente
Book readers route for the black faction because the green faction is anti-Targaryen and are believed to be working with the misters to destroy the Targaryen empire and kill all the dragons so the high towers can replace their own power as they pretty much ruled Westerosi culture until the Conqueror.
Eh no that's not canon, only some tinfoil fan theories and there is little to no evidence for that. It's hinted in the books that the maesters might have been working against the Targaryens and dragons but there is nothing to suggest the Hightowers or Greens were involved. Because that really makes no logical sense. Wether you like it or not the Greens are also Targaryen, they are silver haired Valyrian dragonriders with 6 healthy dragons. Why the hell would they want to kill all the dragons, why would they want to destroy the Targaryen empire when they descend of Aegon the Conqueror? It's a Targaryen civil war where one side has Hightower relatives and not a Hightower vs Targaryen war. Why would Otto want to kill off the dragons and Targaryens, when he can have Targaryen descendants with dragons himself and gain power through them? That was his whole plan. Two sides of a family warring over power, that's all it was about. If the maesters had some sinister scheme to kill the dragons then most certainly without Otto or the Hightowers knowledge. But it also doesn't make much sense that they could have predicted or influenced the events leading to the Dance.
It is difficult to make a case for Ser Otto Hightower placing his own bloodline on the throne out of a sense of duty without one's credibility going south. Duty to whom? His king? He schemes against his king's wishes out of sheer ambition. Duty to the realm? Aegon proves himself to be immature and ill prepared for rulership in season 1, and further compounds this by rashly and drunkenly riding Sunphyre into battle in season 2. The rulership of both Aegon nor Rhaenyra respectively is short and extremely problematic Fire & Blood. Ser Otto might have hoped to shape Aegon II into a strong ruler, or at least a handy puppet (the latter seems more likely), but his conniving strategy ends in complete disaster for his own house, the Targaryens, and the realm. The series obviously portrays Rhaenyra in a more sympathetic light, but that is not to say she will be a better ruler under the circumstances. She might have been a good ruler if she hadn't been thrown directly into a civil war.
Alicent seemed like a good queen her biggest problem was probably raising her eldest son Aegon. Rhanera seems like a below average queen but she seems like a good mother so her children would become good king's if she would win I still think I am team Alicent because I like the color green.
And in the Book They are even better. In the series the writters are doing the impossible to show them as the worst villains, its a crime. Never show Sunfire only in the battle, they ruined Aegon's coronation, Larys is a perv, Aemond pure rage. Its a mockery unforge. Even in that way Raenyra is unworthy because as heir she only cared about having sex and even make Corlys and Varys believe they lost a son. Terrible queen with a murderer husband
Yea he should have. Him and his dragon would have been very useful too the baratheon army at the battle at the king's road. He would have beaten the northern army then return too kings landing too claim the throne after Aegon died
I feel like the show did the greens dirty. They are by no means saints, but they have valid points that the show doesn't highlight at all. Missed opportunity in my book, because now the conflict feels very one sided . But we still have season 2 so you never know
I totally agree with you. I hope that they actually do highlight some of the Green's arguments in season 2, because so many people don't even understand the validity of the Green faction's arguments for supporting Aegon's claim. 🤦♂
@@thecriticalmaester9702yeah, even with the biased writing, if you sit and think about what is happening instead of who you are told to root for, then it's clear that the greens are the better choice.
I 100% agree with this. I hated how they glorified Rhaenyra while she lied about being a virgin and that those boys were legit Valeryons. She was spoiled and Viserys was a weak father and wouldn’t see how his daughter was. It made me angry watching her lie to everyone about her son’s legitimacy.
At first I didn't know which team it could be, but as I read about the two teams, the green one seems much more interesting; for starters, the only valid player in the black one is Daemon. Rhaenyra is not exactly ''an example of a queen'', basically she did NOTHING to inherit the throne, she simply kept her comforts to keep her seat warm; it's normal that they take it away from her and well deserved. Something that I realized is that the older people that support the black team is either because of Deamon(who deserved the support XD) or I get the impression that they watched the series wrong, they never justify anything of their side, they just support them because they are the ''good guys''.
Honestly I think if you don’t realize that the show is trying to trick you a little bit, to confuse who you should give your loyalty to, then you don’t understand GRRM’s or Condal’s writing style. They’re framing Rhaeneyra as some disruptive girlboss when she’s not even fighting for that, she’s fighting primarily to place her illegitimate children on the throne and also to supplant the Valaryon’s house seat at the same time. After the death of her second son, she should have leveraged the existence of crucial information, namely the prophecy, against Aegon and demanded terms that were favorable to her and prevented further bloodshed. But that’s kind of inhuman self control to demand of anyone after the opposing faction murdered your son, seemingly in cold blood, at a critical moment.
I'm certainly questioning some of the decisions the writers are doing with the characters. Argumentative we can say that both sides lost a lot. So, I don't understand as to why the writers of the show wants to side with one faction. Rather than being more balanced and nuanced. But I guess it's too difficult for them. I find it interesting how majority often asks for complex characters. And when they are presented on the screen, they are either likeable or unlikable. No where in between. I don't think the writers know to write complex characters. Hell, I don't claim I know.
I also believe that, the greens can not like you, but they are more competent, and when a society like that not function war come and normal people suffer, meanwhile noble people, in general, not suffer so much
Otto initially supported Rhaenyra but she gave too many red flags that she would destabilize the realm: Being Impulsive, Distant from Court, Mothering bastards, and Marrying Daemon. Alicent was the same but Rhaenyra constantly lied to her despite everything Alicent did for Rhaenyra: Similar to Viserys covering for Daemon. It took ten years for Rhaenyra to realize her mistake but the damage has already been sown and festered in the next six years to the beginning of the Dance of the Dragons. I don't think the Maesters hated the Targaryens because they had a lot of good things to say for Aegon the Conqueror, Jahaerys I Targaryen the Conciliator, Daeron Targaryen the Good, etc. However, the Maesters hating Rhaenyra shows the depth of her depravity. Also, even though Allun Caswell (the guy who Otto hanged) supported Rhaenyra, I don't think he genuinely was loyal was just another opportunist and a people pleaser. The reason is that when he was caught, he cowardly did not affirm his loyalty to Rhaenyra to Otto's face unlike the two nobles in court, and attempted to plead for his life in a way. Otto likely was disgusted with Caswell's lie and hanged him rather than temporarily locking him in the dungeons with other conflicted nobles. Regarding Viserys' reign, Otto credited Jahaerys and Viserys for the realm's peace and prosperity. Both those kings actually governed the realm with Otto's support and none of the Greens Council ever rebutted against this even in private. Viserys was a decent king but his love for Aemma clouded his judgment with it came to the matter of succession. Personally, I blame Daemon for being the one to start and instigate the war with his threats and the events of Blood & Cheese. He even ditched his daughters and Rhaenyra for Nettles which is horrible. There is a lot of evidence that Daemon was alive and ran away with Nettles since his body was never found (No body means no death). If Corlys of all people joined the Greens later on, it shows how messed up the Blacks faction is. Cregan Stark was also no saint because it took Rhaena and Baela as well as his future wife, Alysanne Blackwood, to not execute too many people for "honorable" reasons. Overall, the Hightowers are the complete opposite of the Lannisters: Dutiful, Competent, and Practical. Tywin is not an exception because he killed too many people to satiate his pride and took a huge risk of starting the Red Wedding which would've condemned his family further if more and more people found proof that Walder Frey took orders from Tywin. As Maester Aemon had told Jon, "Love is the death of duty." The Greens selflessly sacrificed love for duty while the Blacks selfishly sacrificed duty for love. Aside from that, I always consider Tyland Lannister to be a badass and a great father figure to Aegon III despite the latter's parents responsible for Tyland's mutilation and torture. It's funnier when you think that way since Tyland wanted Aegon III dead in the past but served as a loyal hand to him to the end.
Very true. People forget Otto even sat aside when Viserys pushed Rhaenyra as the heir but it was his older brother who strongarmed him back into arguing for Aegon.
The ideal successor to the throne would’ve been daemon. The rules ofc state that if the king as a son he takes over the role of successor and even further if he has more sons
Sure Rhaenyra was irresponsible but so are a lot of former Westerosi Kings. Yeah it would be more stable I suppose. But the greens did plot to put to steal the crown from the true heir. Rhaenyra had to fight or her family would die. I dont think Rhaenyra would have tried to kill her half brothers if the succession proceeded peacefully unless they tried some kind of coup after her coronation.
This argument really boils down to "the status quo must always be preserves at all costs" which for a story set in a feudelist monarchy i think is Not The Point.
Still here for my boy, Crispy Cole, who's been turned from the best AND worst of the Kingsguard, Jaime Lannister of this era, to a spiteful, ragemaxxing incel just to paint Rhaenyra as perfect despite her being the one who abused her power, seduced him after he said no, risked him being tortured, castrated and executed and threw away his honour yet threw her duty in his face when he suggested she do the very thing she whined about, to him, for years and escape the burdens of the crown which she said made her more downtrodden than the poverty stricken smallfolk (episode 3: 'because none of them has ever held my position').
It kind of defeats the point of GrrM's novels as this opinion is exactly what causes the dynastical turmoil. Whoever has the right to rule will always be questioned and lead to wars
@Mrprince4245 not really, Viserys II took the throne after Aegon III had lost all his heirs. Aemon the Dragonknight could've been a good ruler but Aegon IV ascended as he was first born. It's a shame since Viserys II was practically the 2nd Jaehaerys.
For sure the Greens in the throne would the most logical, but… I don’t remember clearly, explain me again… What were the terms of surrender that the Greens gave to Rhaenyra?
The series clearly makes the black faction look like the good guys because of the feminist narrative, ignoring all the arguments you mentioned. And that makes me angry. The production reduced and dumbed down the story in the name of a mere dispute between men VS women.
