3 minutes, 12 seconds: Duh! The Bren Ten and the Delta Elite were the only 10mm Autos in the 80's and Norma was the only ammunition manufacturer of 10mm Auto in the 80's. I remember. I am old.
I have owned an original Delta Elite for some 30 years now and I have experienced case head separation on two separate occasions. Both involved reloaded rounds and I believe that repeatedly firing the brass in an unsupported chamber and reusing it eventually weakened the cases and resulted in them blowing out in the case head area. Luckily there was no damage to the pistol but the gas escape did sting my hand and scare the crap out of me when it happened! So now I only either use factory ammo, or new brass for the Colt when shooting hand loaded ammunition.
This video reminded me of my inadvertent "proof load" I ran through my early '90's vintage Delta Elite Gold Cup. I was working up hand loads and running the rounds through my chronograph. I fired three or four and then BLAM the next one recoiled like a .500 S&W full power 440 gr bullet +P load or maybe a .50 BMG in a handgun. IT WAS AWESOME! The chronograph read over 4K FPS! After I calmed down I checked myself for damage and on initial inspection of the gun couldn't find anything wrong and still could not find anything amiss after it was field stripped. I quit that little project and moved onto shooting other guns the rest of the day. Quite obviously, I had double dropped powder in that case. When I got home I broke down the reloads and never shot hand loads in that gun again.
Unbelievable! I don't know that a double load would produce that velocity. I'm not saying that it didn't, but I'm scratching my head. Rifles with light projectiles, tons of powder and high chamber pressures only get close to 4k velocities
I had three Delta Elites in the 80s (I made some really good investments), a blued steel original, a stainless steel standard model and a special ordered stainless adjustable sighted model, gone over by Colt. I used the handguns for general shooting, pistol silhouette, and handgun hunting (I had to go out of state - my state at the time required a 5 1/2" barrel for handgun hunting. The Delta Elite shot and handled every load from Norma, whether the 200 gr. load and the 165 gr. load without a problem. In the case of silhouette shooting, it was the only semi-auto that could hang with a 44 mag or 41 mag on 100+ yard steel knockdown targets. It also dropped hogs and deer out to 75 yds. without a problem. As I listened to the magazines at the time, too went with the Wilson combat two-piece steel guide rod with the Wilson Shok Buffer. I don't know if I needed it, I just wanted to try. I also heard about the frame cracking and tried to find an example or even a photograph, and could never got to an example or photograph. I also had one of the S&W 1006 handgun that every gun rag loved to death, IMO is was an inaccurate, snappy dog. FWIW. From watching people try to shoot full-power 10mm loads, I think most were intimidated by the recoil. When Hornady and Winchester came out with full-power loads which were lighter than the Normas, most people thought they were too hot as well. Oddly enough, when Winchester came out with the Black Talon in 10mm everybody thought it was the 'hottest' ammo out there, but Chrono results showed it was equivalent to the 10mm FBI loads. But the press was full of all sorts of hysteria about how deadly and cruel the Black Talon was and had people convinced it was some sort of super bullet/round. Then again, I was shooting lots of heavy .41 Mag and .44 mag out of S&W 57's and 629's, and even heavier cartridges out of Thompson-Center Encores. Oddly enough most people were really intimidated by a comparative pussy cat, the XP-100 in .35 Remington.
I agree The full power stuff can have quite the snap to it while still being very manageable by a practiced shooter which I guess was one of the fatal flaws with the Norma 10mm was that most people don't practice enough with their handgun (including the FBI LOL) so they of course jumped on the 40 Cal bandwagon and the rest is history
Slim Cowboy ; in truth, the shooters in the FBI unit that were the ones evaluating the findings of the report and did the research to select the 10 mm were all experienced shooters, and I read that their choices were the 10 mm and the .357 Magnum. Fro pm reading about the reports findings and other articles, there may have been some political considerations to avoiding a cartridge with a ‘Magnum’ designation and just the limitations of the revolver itself. What’s missed is this was at the time when two things were happening; incorporation of women into the FBI field force, and the ‘conflict’ over the shooting technique. There were two competing handgun technique, one, the Weaver or modified Weaver and the Isosceles technique. The selection of the Isosceles technique won out, principally due to ease of training and some very vocal advocates, and some very successful and heavily promoted competitive shooters advocacy. The Isosceles won out and it’s almost universally taught as the “Modern Pistol Technique.” The Modern technique while easy to teach and allows relative newcomers to become fairly successful while shooting has a real problem with handguns that have recoil impulses greater than a 9mm handgun for the vast number of people. The reliance on have both arms locked or virtually locked while holding the pistol extended before the shooter, transfers the recoil impulse directly back to the shooter and disrupts the entire body with the recoil impulse. This is one reason why competitive shooters seem to have adopted an exaggerated forward lean with the shoulders brought up almost to ear level when viewed from the side. Contrast this with the Weaver, that uses the athletic stance and the unlocked but extended shooting arm, which is slightly bent to naturally absorb recoil. Or by watching handgun hunters firing heavy recoiling handguns, one can see a variation of the Weaver with an exaggerated bending of the shooting hand to allow for more use of the tendons and muscles of the arm and shoulders to once again absorb recoil. There is another interesting modification that may be seen in shooters of the more powerful handguns used in handgun hunting, this may be seen as almost unintentionally shooters seem to incorporate as semi-cheek weld on the shooting shoulder to assist in providing the increased accuracy needing with handgun hunting. All this means the incorporation of the arm, shoulders being in a position to absorb recoil. But to achieve this and the accuracy that it affords requires practice. Almost no practice in the ‘Modern pistol technique” occurs beyond say 25 yds, often much closer.
Everything you stated is true. I've had mine 29 years and shot NORMA and every other hot hunting load. Used for target, carry, and Whitetails. New spring guide and buffer is all. 🦌⚰😉👍
Hot ammo from Double Tap and Underwood can give you case bulges in the DE. Not as bad as Glock, but I have experienced the bulges. Glock is a drop in barrel swap fix, Colt is more involved and more costly. I agree with Starline brass for reloading. The DE is a nice pistol.
I too reload my 10s in statline brass (In italy one of the most available) and I feel real satisfied in how they old up with 200gn projectiles and hodgdon hs6 as powder...they have some kick but before bulging a brass usually I see signs of overpressure on the primer...
Just watched your video and subscribed. Thank you for making it. Question. Which brand 24lb spring did you use? That, and do you have any recommendations on magazines? Thanks again!
I use Wolf brand springs, as far as magazines the only ones I’ve had luck with working in the Delta elite are the factory Colt ones. Thanks for the sub.
1:13 200gr projectile going at 1200fps is not 100% "full power". From what I picked up on the internet, full power 10mm is: 135gr at 1600 fps, 155gr at 1500 fps, 165gr at 1400 fps, 180gr at 1300fps, *200gr at 1250fps*, and 220gr at 1200 fps. There are still ammo manufacturers such as Underwood, DoubleTap, etc., loading ammo at these velocities, though most of them are hunting/defense kind of specialty (expensive) rounds. For cheap FMJ range ammo, Underwood, SIG Sauer, and Fiocchi are three brands that offer 180gr FMJ at 1250fps, close to full power. There is one brand called Fenix, they sell 180gr FMJ at 1375fps, way above and beyond the level of that original Norma ammo, though I had no experience with them :)
The argument that it must be safe because it was developed back when full power 10mm was the norm is not really sound. It could be that it was an unforeseen issue. We've seen similar cases in certain other guns, where frequent issues were later discovered and had to be addressed in later revisions by the manufacturer. We've seen it with Beretta's M9 (slide cracks), S&W's original Model 66 (forcing cone cracks), the original Glock 22 ("Glocknades"), and various other firearms that were supposedly designed to handle firing their respective calibers. Manufacturers make mistakes.
If you compare a 10mm Kimber or Dan Wesson to a Colt Delta Elite the only differences that I can see are the Kimber & DW have a fully supported chamber and a full length metal guide rod. Minor differences only. The Kimber, DW & Colt can all handle full power ammo without problems. There are other quality 10mm 1911’s available, but those are the 3 that I can speak for from personal experience.
I bought two boxes of old Norma 10mm ammo, and none of the twenty rounds fired chronographed at much more 1000fps. Don't know if it had been improperly stored for 35 years, but pretty disappointing.
Powerfactorguy i’ve heard that from several people that the old normal stuff doesn’t have the punch it used to my guess is 35 years can do a lot to ammo
@@SlimCowboy The Norma ammo did not lose power. It never was as powerful as advertised. The only place the 200 grain load ever hit 1200 fps was in Norma's marketing materials. The 1200 fps ammo often used as a reference for "full power" 10mm loads is a myth that never existed. I bought a Springfield Omega back in the 80s when Norma and PMC were the only ammo choices. Like many of the early 10mm 1911s it was a modified 45 and not really up the the added pressure of the 10mm. After the locking mechanism broke I had the gun repaired and in 1991 traded it for a S&W 610 revolver. I shot quite a bit of the original Norma ammo through it without any signs of sticky extraction. But ever time I tried some of the modern loads by Underwood or Buffalo Bore that actually produce the velocities Norma advertised extraction was extremely sticky. So I know the modern ammo was loaded hotter than the old Norma ammo. If properly stored ammo will not lose power after 35 years. There are lots of RU-vid videos of people shooting older ammo and it works fine. But the all the videos I have seen of the original Norma ammo show it consistently producing about 200 fps less than advertised. Because that is what it was loaded to when new. When that ammo was made Norma did not have to worry about a bunch of RU-vidrs with chronographs testing their ammo. In the gun magazines of the day chronograph results were usually prefaced with some sort of "While I am sure the ammo reached its rated velocity in a test barrel in my gun . . ." qualifier because it was normal to see a lot less than the rated velocity. Right after I bought my first 10mm I remember reading in a magazine that when being developed the cartridge was loaded at much higher pressure than the current SAAMI limit of 37500. But it was too much pressure for a conventionally designed semi-auto pistol and SAAMI set the limit to 37500. Norma then produced ammo at SAAMI pressure levels but kept the velocity ratings from the higher pressure ammo that was never sold commercially. I wish I had held on to those old gun magazines but they were thrown out years ago. Some of the old gun magazines were less reliable than others and I cannot remember which one I read that in.
double tap blew my bullets out of the bottom of my mag.. spring flew somewhere. something hit my face after the shot.. I had an older Delta. found out the hard way
Yup, colt DE are hazardous.. I will Never buy an unsupported chamber again!...had a case blow up and case smiles" on factory hornady loads 155grs xtp's My Kimber stainless 2 is far safer with supported chamber ..
I will fire full power 10 mm through my cultivate.I don't care if it breaks the brakes.. I don't think so.This gun is pretty stout.It weighs over 4 pounds.I think that's what one of the gun channels says it's pretty heavy gun
The logic that Norma spec ammunition was all that was available, and therefore must be safe for use in the Delta Elite, is dangerous and logically fallacious, just from what we know about other firearms in the past. The .357 Magnum, for example, used to be loaded much hotter. In the early 90s, S&W got tired of their small frame revolvers torching their forcing cones and top straps, and asked SAAMI to lower the max average pressure of the .357 Magnum. SAAMI obliged and lowered the max average pressure of the .357 down to 35,000 PSI from somewhere in the neighborhood of 43,000 PSI. If you had applied this same faulty logic to the small frame revolvers, you could argue that the full power .357 Magnum was safe to fire in a small frame S&W revolvers, because that is the only ammunition that was available when the revolvers were developed and released to the public. However, the fact that S&W got so tired of repairing these revolvers that they requested the max average pressure be lowered rather than redesign their revolvers shows that the logic is faulty and it was not safe to shoot high volumes of full power .357 Magnum through these revolvers. Similarly, when the 10mm Auto came out, it was among the most powerful cartridges ever put in an automatic handgun. Because it was designed to fit in a .45 ACP sized grip and magazine, it was mostly .45 ACP guns that got put on the market in 10mm Auto. But the 10mm Auto is a completely different animal than the .45 ACP, and it is obvious that none of these companies did due diligence with long term durability testing with high round counts of this Norma ammo. Nearly all of the initial offerings in 10mm Auto developed some sort of a reputation for rattling themselves apart. Colt didn't make the necessary design modifications that you discussed to the Delta Elite because there wasn't a problem with it. Rather, it is more likely they learned some lessons the hard way because nothing like 10mm Auto had ever been done before. Putting 37,500 PSI behind a supersonic 200 gr projectile is a lot more force to contain than 23,000 PSI behind a subsonic 230 gr in .45 ACP +P or 35,000 PSI behind a supersonic 124 gr 9mm. The .38 Super could get pretty hot, but was not without its own issues, and was still not quite the beast that Norma spec 10mm Auto was. Companies did their best, and just fumbled their way through the teething stages resolving issues as they appeared. The newer Deltas are probably much more capable of handling full power 10mm Auto than their predecessors, but on some level, those of us who enjoy shooting 10mm Auto and insist on shooting only "real" 10mm Auto might just have to accept that few things are free and physics always gets the last word in. It will probably never be realistic to expect the same long term durability from a 10mm Auto as you do from a .45 ACP. With the cost of ammo, a modern 10mm from a reputable manufacture will probably take everything you can give it, but if shooting a half a million rounds through your handgun is an option for you, the 10mm might not ever be the best choice. The 10mm Auto, when loaded to its potential, is a high performance round. It isn't realistic to expect the same mileage from a 10mm as it is a 9mm or .45, in the same way that expecting the same miles from a 1000 horsepower racing engine as from a Toyota Camery.
I think an all steel centimeter can take true 10mm no problem. Aluminum and composite ones are where you'll see problems and need to go back to borderline 40 S&W.
the DEs were steel and fell apart, that's because colt still uses casts frames for them literally anyone else that makes one of quality makes a forged one
@@johnklatt3522 I feels, but if it's got any sandy or rough looking textures on the portions. that weren't machined it's cast, if not it's usually Forged, and if billet it's all machined
See the problem is, it's not that it's "Norma Spec" anymore we're well past Norma specs for quality ammo. much further afterwards. and the DE not having a fully supported chamber or a forged frame will shorten the life if you run spicy ammo. But luckily almost no one shoots their guns, and certainly even less run steady diets of pissing hot handloads out if them. And that shitty guide rod is a crutch for an improperly sprung gun.
