Women and Ministry, Part I: Seven Minute Seminary 

NT Wright has one the best discussions on women in ministry from the context of first century thinking. Its on RU-vid or on his website. It will help you!

@@DWHalse Ah, NT Wright, I must admit, I've found him to 'fudge' issues somewhat, never quite comes off the fence. This video did a similar thing by 'cherry picking' verses. The debate goes on, eh

Oh, those Anglicans🤣🤣 we all fudge a bit don’t we? Thanks for reply!! Blessings

@@DWHalse 😃😃

@@hartleyhare251 You hit the nail on the head, "cherry picking verses" Isn't it funny how they pick and choose what to follow, (as long as it goes with their agenda) to include double standards. One is saved by grace, we are equipped for every good work, not saved by keeping the commandments but if we love God we will keep them, but yet so many will argue over keeping them, but not one of those 10 oppresses, does it? For example, Sabbath is one of those commands, but arguments galore on not keeping it, but the same person that argues not to keep it says to keep the commandments...

don't "blame" the denomination, you can read can't you? besides that you likely had a sorry pastor.

Not sure where you were taught or who you been listening to, but everything you just stated is absolutely false. Anna did not work in the temple nor did she save people and laboring in the gospel does not mean your doing the work of an evangelist. Your reading into scripture what is simply not there nor implied.

you have prophecy confused with teaching huldah did not teach these men, rather she told them a prophecy , deborah was a prophetess also, these women loved and feared the Lord, they feared to be the source of His sorrow

you are onto something there

In Acts women also held ministry

@@jenex5608 Also in Acts they raised the dead, spoke in other languages, we’re transported through distance, etc. now occasionally, God used women to speak for Him. In the New Testament, it was the daughters of Philip, who on one occasion were used by the Lord to speak, not in a church service, but to speak for God. We just cannot find any woman as a priest, any woman as a spiritual leader, any woman as a prophet anywhere in the Old Testament. In the Epistles we have very clear and specific instructions on how men lead the church.

Wussup my man, not to be rude, I'm not to sure on the subject, but I just wanted to say that prophesying and being a pastor are two different things. Pastors teach the word of God and prophecy is getting a revalation from God, both different. God bless brother.

+GeonBeen Park Women Ordination is an ASSAULT on the foundation of the Godhead (as God is the head of Christ in an ecclesiastical setting - so too was the man placed as the head of the woman in an ecclesiastical setting -- outside this setting they are equal as Christ is with the Father)

women are to be silent in the church. your feminism is full of itself. what the Bible says is absolutely correct, and feminism doesn't change a thing.

+Jane20121985 amen

+bryan furr how can women be silent when she has to prophesy in the church? I am not being a feminist, pls do not misrepresent me. I am trying to see what God is doing in Christ, in Christ, no women nor men, no gentiles nor jews, no masters nor slaves. we are all same in Christ in his spiritual blessings. I was not trying to ask that first question of my comment as a rude man, but I was sincerely asking the reason why do you think women had to prophesy in the church in given context of women's silence in the church. sorry I want to apologize if my previous question seemed rude and offended you.

Anna Dominique prophet and pastor are different things

@@bibleblessingsbypastoratha4230 A prophet spoke God's words..."Thus sayeth the Lord" The prophets taught. Many commentaries as well as dictionaries to the Bible state this. What does a pastor do? They are 'supposed' to preach/teach God's words that have already been written. The titles may be different, but the jobs were nearly the same, including the warnings that were given.

yes, but not a teacher

Gospel does say that Mary sat at the feet of Jesus and it was needed and would not be taken from her even to serve Him. Bible use same words about how Paul sat at the feet of Gamaliel. Also, Jesus says that all who refrain from aggression and even feed His people, when others fall away saying "He is delayed" - that is the wise and faithful servant who HE will put over all His people. So, this is my take on a deacon, which is a humble and good servant . "literally scurrying through the dust to serve" This is the one He repeatedly calls the leader. Paul describes himself and the Apostles as being treated as the scum of the earth and still scurrying to serve. That is how the bible describes the first of all of the appointed. So, todays idea of male or female paster and disciple is full of our own ideas. Your comment is has some truth and you are in-tilted to it. It made me think so, thanks.

Although I agree with your sentiments with the speaker, nowhere in the N.T does it say or imply women can teach publicly from the Word of God if men are not present.

@@heymichaelc OR , if men are present

@@bmurp1201 Tim 2:11-15 many will imply this passage means that as long as men are present women can not teach, no, Paul is clear, women are not permitted to teach, nor have authority over men. It is not saying women can teach when men are not present, it does not matter who is in attendance, women are not permitted to teach. The older may teach the younger in home rearing as Titus states. Other than that, spiritual teaching is not permitted.

that is what i see , i guess the wording thru me off, thankyou for clarifying this for me@@heymichaelc

Jesus made it clear he came to serve - anyone who wants to be great in the kingdom needs to serve, not rule over as the pagan gentiles do. The word for help meet is ezer, and God refers to himself in this way - a rescue. Unless you are implying that God is subordinate to men because he helps them, you may want to give this a rethink. Titus indicates there were elder women and elder men - Paul was not interested in age but spiritual maturity. Women supported Jesus out of their own means and He, in his grace, allowed them to help his mission. If this was true then, you will not separate women from the love of God now.

@@elibennett6168 Dear Eli, there is no one I am aware of who holds the complementarian position, including myself, who disputes servant leadership, or disputes God's incredible service to the elect, nor would we be confused that his service to his elect no longer means he is our Master. So I do not think the first part of your reply is moot. The last part, "you will not separate women from the love of God," needs rethinking. I, nor any complementarian I have ever known, has ever taught that women are not partakers of God's grace and love. However, if by that you mean to imply that God's love removes restrictions on service or behavior, then you are using the same type of argument homosexuals make, i.e. "God loves us therefore you can't restrict us or you are opposed to God's love . . ." If God's love removes gender qualifications, then does it remove the other qualifications as well? That would nullify the very point of the text of Titus! On the contrary, the qualification set forth in Titus for the appointment begins with being male (word aner 1:6 is male specific). Chapter 2 is not about the appointment, the conjunction in 2:1 is a response to the false teaching of the rebellious men - a positive affirmation of what should be taught. Notice 2:3-5 is all one sentence. The subject "elder women" - this does not mean these are Elders (an office holder), but are elders - older people. And notice the scope of the teaching the elder women are to stick to: domestic issues including being subject to their husbands. This scope is supportive of other texts limiting women from teaching men and therefore being precluded from the office of Elder. I will pose my question from above again, what old or new testament book was written by a woman? With such committed female disciples who followed Jesus, why were none listed among the Apostles? Why was not even one listed in the book of Acts in the councils? Or among the church fathers as being an Elder in the apostolic church? Do you not find it curious there is a glaring absence of women in the capacities I just mentioned? And that this absence is universally held by virtually all strains of the church from the time of Christ up until the birth of modern feminism in the past century?

@@dougdoesit3013 I won't address everything in a very long note back, but just two points. First, you are creating a false equivalence between sexual immorality and gender. It is not a sin to be a woman, yet it really does seem like men imply that it is and thus justify a hierarchical relationship placing a husband (and some say all men) as a mediator between a woman and God. The slippery slope argument you and many others are using shows that there is a belief that being female is spiritually inferior and akin to an abomination given the false equivalence to a sinful state. In fact, Paul states there is no male or female for all are one in Christ Jesus. I have literally seen men write that man is a woman's god, and that God gives him direction and then he directs the woman, and then she directs the children in one long hierarchical chain. For this reason, no woman can minister since she is not able to hear from God directly. That goes along with the interpretive frame that a woman is spiritually inferior and needs a male "covering" because she cannot properly handle doctrine ever without a male in authority to supervise. Yet we know the Holy Spirit teaches us, counsels us, lives in all born again believers. Additionally, we know that men who do not treat their wives as equal partners/co-heirs may have their prayers hindered. What's that about if he is the mediator between God and woman? The answer is he is not. There is a mutual ethic of collaboration and yielding characterized by Ephesians 5:21. This is not to say that God has made male and female identical, clearly he has not. Second point, stepping away from husband and wife relationships to Christian community: Paul wanted all Christians, brothers and sisters to become spiritually mature. That IS eldership. What argument can you make to say that a person is qualified to teach simply based on age? In each of the qualifications sections, women are mentioned with the "likewise" or "in the same way" construction. While you say no woman can have any authority or leadership role, the scripture says otherwise. It is clear they are qualified to be deacons and we have Phebe as an example. You need to explain away Deborah as if her work was a lesser thing than other judges and prophets - and your completely unreflective as you go about it. I do find it astounding that you are unreflective about Titus' inclusion of elder women, explaining it away as just old age. Paul is clear elsewhere in scripture that teaching is for those who are qualified. Specifically, in 2 Timothy 2 "2 And the things you have heard me say in the presence of many witnesses entrust to reliable people who will also be qualified to teach others.". The Greek indicates not men alone but people, brothers and sisters. If you keep going down the line of reasoning you expressed in your comment, you will convince yourself no woman can be a teacher of anything ever. But we do have examples, such as Apollos submitting to the teaching of Priscilla who explained the gospel more accurately, and he went on to become a very strong apologist in the early church. The word for elder female in Titus is presbytidas. Why is it that it means old age with women and spiritual maturity with men? I'd be happy to hear your defense from the Greek.

@@elibennett6168 Point 1: I am not liking gender to sexual immorality. I was pointing out that your statement ending the previous post implied a line of reasoning consistent with the arguments used by others who wish to remove that restriction as well. Point 2: Titus 2 is not addressing elder women and men directly. The letter is written to Titus. Paul is telling Titus, teach elder men and elder women to behave this way. Those teachings are for all men and women in the church aspiring to approved character. Chapter one addresses specific appointments. Priscilla/Deborah: No dispute that women may teach in a non-Eldership Office role. Priscillia was not preaching to the assembly. She was talking with Apollos and explaining the gospel to him in her home. People were coming to Deborah privately for her counsel. She was not seated in the tabernacle as a priest. There are Godly women that, when they speak, I listen. But they may not be appointed to the office of Elder or Pastor-Teacher.

@@dougdoesit3013 You having to explain away the presence of women leaders is a sign of illness in the modern church. Women are taught to be passive and unengaged, that does not mean they don't have capacity or gifting. In fact, it is the engaged women that have made notable missionaries. The assemblies of the early church WERE in homes. That Priscilla took Apollos aside was a sign of mentorship and protecting his dignity as many elders do. You turn a kindness into a disqualification. He was not embarrassed in public by his misunderstandings, but gently corrected. We know he accepted the correction because he became a great evangelist. It is also true that the church had a teach-the-teacher approach described by Paul: teach people sound doctrine, they learn in quietude and without anger, and show themselves approved to teach by holding firm to Christ and having strong moral character. We all have to walk the talk. This is true of men and women alike. Do you not understand this is how the gospel spread so quickly? They were on fire for Christ.

It's interesting that you don't recognize the scripture he is referring to. Take a look at Ephesians 5:21. The word submit is not even in verse 22 in the original language - feel free to check interlinear on this. Also, please refer to Jesus' own words in Luke 22. LIkewise, refer to Philippians 2:7. The word used for Christ's servant status is essentially the same as for Phoebe, a deacon.

@@elibennett6168 It's interesting that you don't know what Scripture he's referring to. did you hear what he said? do you know 5:22-24 (the very next verses?) you remind me of some who when they encounter passages that teach what they don't wish is true they just try to overlook it and/or turn the attention to some other verse or do some real twisting and turning gymnastics. (as if that's going to get rid of verses in the Bible) don't do that. it's not going to do anything to those verses/truth from God that you don't like (verses .22-24) And the word submit not being in that verse? yeah i know so what? that word is not implied there? is that what you want to argue? Wives ______ to your husbands as to the Lord. (what's implied there? read the next verses) For the husband is THE HEAD OF THE WIFE JUST AS CHRIST IS THE HEAD OF THE CHURCH .... Therefore JUST AS THE CHURCH IS SUBJECT TO CHRIST, SO LET THE WIVES BE TO THEIR OWN HUSBANDS IN EVERYTHING. uh oh.. verse 24 is still there. you going to look for a way to get rid of that verse you seem to not like? Or look for a way to do some twisting and turning? don't do that. don't pick and choose what you like vs. don't like. submit to the whole of Scripture friend.

@@kpballa1009 You are the one reacting badly to something you don't like in the scriptures, and now becoming accusatory. Ephesians 5:21 states mutual submission out of reverence to Christ. Husbands yield their lives for their wives. You reject that Jesus came to serve; he stated this in his own words that he was yielding his life, and the husband is to do so too. But it goes further since service is how one becomes great in the kingdom. Does that offend you? Seems to. A husband must respect his wife as co-heir and equal partner (1 Peter 3:7). There is a universal ethic of yielding to one another. I've given you proof texts.

@@elibennett6168 yeah. and remain consistent with the whole mutual submission - apply it to children and parents also. 6:1-4 (remain consistent) since they can also be brothers and sisters in Christ. Good luck with that.

@@kpballa1009 Where children or learning are concerned there is a different Greek word for submit. Did you know that? if not, I would suggest you start there in understanding the difference. Additionally, yes, we at times yield ourselves and serve our children, care for them. When a parent doesn't serve a child, we call it neglect.

In Biblical hermeneutics an overarching principle is to let the clear interpret the unclear. Passages dealing with male leadership in Christian homes and in churches are quite clear. When using "cultural context" as an interpretive tool, in this case to promote that Paul may have simply been dealing with the church at Ephesus or Corinth regarding the roles of men and women, something would have to be very compelling or clearly justifiable in order to dismiss a clear teaching of Scripture, which isn't the case regarding gender roles. Here are a few other items to consider: 1. Paul based his teaching of gender roles and functions not on culture, but on , thus establishing that there is a deeper principle at work in God's design. 2. In Ephesians 5:32 we also see that God's design isn't simply based on Creation, but also on . Male and female roles reflect Christ and the Church. This most certainly transcends the vast array of cultures spanning the eras of history. You even see Trinitarian connections in the created hierarchical order of things (1 Cor 11:3). 3. If wives aren't called to respect and submit to their own husbands, then are husbands no longer expected to love their wives as Christ loved the church? There must be hermeneutical consistency, otherwise it reveals cultural bias as the underlying motive. 4. Lastly, the array of verses on the topic of gender roles don't contradict one another, nor what is good and healthy. In other words, Christ-like leadership in men loves, protects, and serves those under his care. Abuse and chauvinism is sin and doesn't reflect Christ or God's Word at all. Many of the passages in question affirm that women are dignified, equal in Christ, and co-heirs of the Kingdom.. This is important in the fight against male authoritarian abuse. That said, none of the passages teach, or even imply, that women should be the spiritual leaders of their homes or elders in the Church. This does not make them lesser. Each person, gender, and calling is full of its own "peculiar glory" in Christ. The complementary partnerships, when functioning biblically, are holy, healthy, and good.

But I do not allow a woman to teach or to exercise authority over a man, but to remain quiet. For it was Adam who was first created, and then Eve. And it was not Adam who was deceived, but the woman was deceived and became a wrongdoer. -1 Timothy 2:12-14 I recently wrote an essay on Deborah the judge, which I can post here if requested. According to Deuteronomy 17, even the act of not accepting a judge's decision, would result in execution. Also, Deborah was over Barak, the commander of the army.

Already done. There is a lot of recent scholarship that harmonizes Pauline theology to iron out the so-called conflicts in his writings.

@@elibennett6168 I am not aware of any conflicts in his writings.

@@Bibleguy89-uu3nr Essay on Deborah, the Judge and prophetess. (Revised May 2023) Before Paul we have her story. We don't know what Paul would have said about her. We have to read about her first and then try to understand Paul (if possible). This is what the people at the beginning of Christianity had to do. They knew the story of Deborah already. Deborah is either a meaningless exception or an important precedent, in the debate of whether men and women are spiritually equal. Before beginning, it should be noted that there is no scripture stating clearly or even hinting at, that Deborah was God's second choice. There was no man that rejected the call to be Judge, requiring a woman to take that place. ************************************************************* INTRODUCTION: Before God was rejected by Israel for the rulership of men, that is, kings, there were different 'seasons' so to speak. One of those seasons was the time of the Judges. ...but they have rejected Me from being King over them. Then all the elders of Israel gathered together and came to Samuel at Ramah; and they said to him, “Behold, you have grown old, and your sons do not walk in your ways. Now appoint us a king to judge us like all the nations.” But the matter was displeasing in the sight of Samuel when they said, “Give us a king to judge us.” And Samuel prayed to the Lord. And the Lord said to Samuel, “Listen to the voice of the people regarding all that they say to you, because they have not rejected you, but they have rejected Me from being King over them. Like all the deeds which they have done since the day that I brought them up from Egypt even to this day-in that they have abandoned Me and served other gods-so they are doing to you as well. -excerpt 1 Samuel 8 A Judge at this time, was VERY different from a judge in our time. The Judge was over the nation of Israel. But not as a man, as King, or as a woman, as Queen, because God was not rejected as King as yet. God ruled Israel through the Judges. Wheresoever I have walked with all Israel, spake I a word to any of the judges of Israel, whom I commanded to feed my people, saying, Why have ye not built me an house of cedars? Also: Also I will ordain a place for my people Israel, and will plant them, and they shall dwell in their place, and shall be moved no more; neither shall the children of wickedness waste them any more, as at the beginning, and since the time that I commanded judges to be over my people Israel. excerpts 1 Chronicles 17 KJV -God speaking to Nathan the prophet Finally: All the Judges were men, except one. Deborah. She was married, but her husband was not a Judge. HER JUDGING AUTHORITY here: Now Deborah, a prophetess, the wife of Lappidoth, was judging Israel at that time. She used to sit under the palm tree of Deborah between Ramah and Bethel in the hill country of Ephraim; and the sons of Israel went up to her for judgment. -excerpt Judges 4 Deborah judged men and had the authority to execute, as some sins in the Old Covenant, such as murder, demanded the death penalty as the punishment. There was no appeal to Deborah's (a Judge's) verdict: ... you shall not turn aside from the word which they declare to you, to the right or the left. If a man rejected Deborah's decision, the penalty was execution: But the person who acts insolently by not listening to the priest who stands there to serve the Lord your God, nor to the judge, that person shall die;... She used the Law, therefore scripture, when judging and instructing: In accordance with the terms of the law about which they instruct you... She had the same authority as a Levitical priest: So you shall come to the Levitical priests or the judge... Also of note, she judged the hardest cases in the nation. “If a case is too difficult for you to decide, between one kind of homicide or another, between one kind of lawsuit or another, and between one kind of assault or another, that are cases of dispute in your courts, then you shall arise and go up to the place which the Lord your God chooses. So you shall come to the Levitical priests or the judge who is in office in those days, and you shall inquire of them and they will declare to you the verdict. Then you shall act in accordance with the terms of the verdict which they declare to you from that place which the Lord chooses; and you shall be careful to act in accordance with everything that they instruct you to do. In accordance with the terms of the law about which they instruct you, and in accordance with the verdict which they tell you, you shall act; you shall not turn aside from the word which they declare to you, to the right or the left. But the person who acts insolently by not listening to the priest who stands there to serve the Lord your God, nor to the judge, that person shall die; so you shall eliminate the evil from Israel. -excerpt Deuteronomy 17 ******************************** THE REASON GOD SENT HER here: ...the Lord was moved to pity... And when the Lord raised up judges for them, the Lord was with the judge and saved them from the hand of their enemies all the days of the judge; for the Lord was moved to pity by their groaning because of those who tormented and oppressed them. -excerpt Judges 2 The sending of a Judge meant God was showing mercy to His people. It wasn't a judgment against them. Since Deborah was a woman, this scripture is sometimes used in error to describe her, in our time: My people! Their oppressors treat them violently, And women rule over them. My people! Those who guide you lead you astray And confuse the direction of your paths. -excerpt Isaiah 3 They are taking the prophetess Deborah and comparing her to Jezebel who murdered prophets. Has it not been reported to my master what I did when Jezebel killed the prophets of the Lord, that I hid a hundred prophets of the Lord... -excerpt 1 Kings 18 When a Judge died, THEN people were led astray. But it came about, when the judge died, that they would turn back and act more corruptly than their fathers, in following other gods to serve them and bow down to them; they did not abandon their practices or their obstinate ways. -excerpt Judges 2 THE AUTHORITY SHE HAD OVER THE COMMANDER OF THE ARMY here: Now she sent word and summoned Barak... She gave the order for the battle to begin that Israel won. Then Deborah said to Barak, “Arise! For this is the day on which the Lord has handed Sisera over to you... Before the battle began she prophesied that a woman would kill Sisera (the enemy commander). This happened, as Jael, a woman not part of the battle, killed Sisera. She said, “I will certainly go with you; however, the fame shall not be yours on the journey that you are about to take, for the Lord will sell Sisera into the hand of a woman.” And: But Jael, Heber’s wife, took a tent peg and a hammer in her hand, and went secretly to him and drove the peg into his temple, and it went through into the ground; for he was sound asleep and exhausted. So he died. And behold, while Barak was pursuing Sisera, Jael came out to meet him and said to him, “Come, and I will show you the man whom you are seeking.” So he entered with her, and behold, Sisera was lying dead with the tent peg in his temple. So what were the results of this battle? And the Lord routed Sisera and all his chariots and all his army with the edge of the sword before Barak; and Sisera got down from his chariot and fled on foot. But Barak pursued the chariots and the army as far as Harosheth-hagoyim, and all the army of Sisera fell by the edge of the sword; not even one was left. Also: So God subdued Jabin the king of Canaan on that day before the sons of Israel. And the hand of the sons of Israel pressed harder and harder upon Jabin the king of Canaan, until they had eliminated Jabin the king of Canaan. -excerpts Judges 4 In Judges 5, most of the chapter is Deborah and Barak singing praises to God. The song lyrics are there. Final sentence of Judges 5: And the land was at rest for forty years. Obviously a great outcome. EXPLANATION OF GOD USING DEBORAH here: Now Deborah, a prophetess, the wife of Lappidoth... Prophets and prophetesses are anointed with the Holy Spirit as we know. The explanation of God using Deborah to judge men and being over the army is here: An anointing of the Holy Spirit is the anointing of a powerful masculine being. That anointing eclipses gender. FINAL THOUGHTS here: A woman anointed with the Holy Spirit can serve in any capacity in our time. Whatever valid title/position there is. To oppose this, is to oppose the Holy Spirit. The same Holy Spirit that was upon Deborah the prophetess and Judge. Deborah, the woman that "saved them from the hand of their enemies" by God's will.

@@Bibleguy89-uu3nr Technically there should be none since scripture must have internal consistency. If there is a conflict, then it means we don't have full understanding and must reconcile it. An example of a conflict in Paul's writing is 1 Corinthians 14 where he states women must be silent or make no vocal utterance versus 1 Corinthians 11. A number of churches have interpreted 14 as proving women cannot be leaders and cannot lead worship in any way, this includes leading song, offering a prayer, making an announcement, witnessing, or teaching etc. while believers are "in assembly". Women cannot lead or be the public face of anything (she can do the work but needs to have a man to "cover" her and to receive the public acknowledgement so no one is confused as to men leading). But this is in conflict with Paul giving instructions for women praying and prophesying, so we know Paul cannot have meant absolute silence all the time. A more pragmatic understanding is that the whole section tells men and women to have self-control and be quiet when others are talking. There are other "conflicts" but we don't need to delve into all of them. Those that hold absolutists positions simply ignore them or weave in speculation. It sounds like you lean toward absolutist and don't see conflicts.

He provided a survey of the "changes" from OT to NT in outlook and perspective on the roles of women and suggested that these changes demonstrate a trajectory of positive change towards equalizing men and women. So, as a survey of the first-century view on women, this video pays very little attention to theology. He did not touch any of the prohibitory passages on leadership that one might expect based on the title of this video. And the information presented in this video is such that people from both sides will run every which way they want with it.

Bro watch it it’s 7 minutes 😂

if you had read thru these verses You,quoted you would not have posted this drivel

your attitude ,toward the men of God, is what promted the feminism remark i see that spirit in almost all the women arguing for authority over men

Ma'am, the custom he said the church didn't have was arguing and contention.

He did though 😅

Please watch again and read the corresponding scriptures he mentions. Maybe you don’t have your volume up all the way?

@@hannahdennis3922 I must admit, he was selective. But then again, just look at what has happened to the Methodist church in the UK... strong word here, but it's defo. gone into apostasy. Oh my, what is happening to the church in the UK?

Actually, exactly the opposite is true. Artemis worship at the time taught that Eve was created first and Adam was deceived so Paul was literally reacting to a social situation. Otherwise - that statement is almost as bizarre as saying a woman shall be saved through childbirth.

You couldn’t be more wrong, Paul isn’t saying Eve is more prone to deception, he’s saying Adam misguided her, in other words she was unlearned. Stop reading into the scriptures.

Obviously, your interpretation is unsupported in scripture because no where does it even hint on anyone being unlearned. You are the one reading into a scripture on what is not there. Scripture does say that women are the weaker vessel and it was Eve who was deceived not man. Anyway you want to look at it, due to her being deceived, has caused her to be in subjection to man as a curse. Since this is true and taught by scripture, women can not lead men in a church setting nor anywhere else. Having women leading man today is an act of rebellion to her curse and against G-d. Regardless how hard it may sound, truth can not be changed.

@@trevino37 Making a bunch of assertions doesn’t make you right. You have no idea what you’re talking about and do not understand biblical human anthropology. Women being the “weaker vessel” has nothing to do with intellect or proneness to deception, you saying is hilariously incorrect, and again an example of eisegesis. Paul clearly blames Adam primarily for the fall, Eve as deceived bc he did not properly inform her about God’s command. And Paul literally made the point the unlearned by bringing up Eve who was ignorant hence deception. There is nothing in scripture about God making women subject to men as inferiors, and even if you’re right, that’s a result of the fall the very fall Jesus reversed on the cross. I’m Christ in he effects of the fall are are reversed so that argument simply doesn’t work for the church. It also contradicts the female prophets in the Bible they had as much authority as the male prophets and did in fact lead men the primary but no exclusive example is Deborah. You’re also furthering reading into scripture by trying to claim “women can’t lead men in secular matters” clearly you have woman issues and it shows no matter how hard you want to rule over women you have no right or authority in Christ there is no curse you trying to push for this idea is blatant heresy and is antichrist cry bout it all you want Jesus undid the fall and all genuine believers are one in Christ this is a truth that’s not going anywhere ✝️

Okay, then what do you do with women like Phoebe (a Deakon) or Junia (an apostle) or Nympha (head of a house church) ?

Is 'teacher' only to be understood as an 'official role'? Did not Christ present a new way? Isn't the church a 'priesthood of all believers', and therefore women also teach and minister? The confusing issue may be hierarchy.

Romans 16:1-2......I COMMEND (speak in favor, in this case) unto PHEBE our sister, which is a SERVANT (Definition of SERVANT: one that serves others a public servant; especially : one that performs duties about the person or home of a master or personal employer) at Cenchrea: 2). That ye receive her in the Lord, as becometh saints, and that ye assist her in whatsoever business she hath need of you: for she hath been a SUCCOURER (Helper) of many, and of myself also...............Romans 16:7 Salute (Greet) ANDRONICUS and JUNIA, my KINSMEN, (one related by blood) and my fellowprisoners, who are OF NOTE (well known) among the Apostles, who also were in Christ Before Me..............Once Again (((((Paul's Greetings))) 1 Corinthians 16:19 The churches of Asia salute (Greet) you. AQUILA and PRISCILLA salute (Greet) you much (heartily) in the Lord, with the church that is IN THEIR Houses...........Philippians 4:2-3..............I beseech ( implore/ask) EUODIAS, and beseech (implore/ask) SYNTYCHE that they be of the SAME MIND in the Lord.................................3). And I intreat thee also, true YOKEFELLOW, (companion/comrade) help those women which laboured with me in the gospel, with Clement (merciful/kind) Also, and with other my fellow lowlabourers, whose names are in the book of life. (These two verses deal with Paul Imploring/asking Euodias and Syntyche to live in harmony, because they were at odds with one another over some matters)....1 Corinthians 1:11 For it hath been declared (reported) unto me of you, my brethren, by them which are of the house of CHLOE, That There Are CONTENTIONS (quarrels) among you....(Here the church is divided in Chloe's house, and Paul appeals for unity)..........Colossians 4:15 Salute (Greet) the brethren which are in Laodicea and NYMPHAS and the church which is in HIS House.....(Self-explanatory)

@@keiththomas4031 the word "servant" in this verse is actually the word Diakonos, it is where we get our word "deacon." If you search it in the strongs you will find in the Kjv it is most often translated "minister," but I guess in this case maybe the translator was male and was translating material about a woman so he chose the word "servant." This controversy has been orchestrated by satan since God spoke Genesis 3:15, men were just obliged to assist. Women traditionally have been oppressed by men. Only 99 years ago the woman gained the right to vote, and that is just one example. The traditions of men make the word of God of none effect....... Jesus said this. I understand that you would prefer for woman to not go around speaking of God's goodness and grace, but we don't hear from you how you feel about the serpent slandering God in the garden to Eve. Rather than trying to stifle the woman's voice maybe it would be better to stifle the voice of evil. Jesus said "a house divided falls!"

@@Cuvoastoh6321 Men & Women are both called to speak of God's goodness and grace. No argument there at all. Women in pastoral ministry is however a clear contradiction to the Word of God. I have read your comment and you have twisted a number of ideas unfortunately. Perhaps this is one of the reasons why (your twisting of scripture) women are excluded from the office of Pastor.

God ruled Israel through Deborah, and the other Judges. ...I commanded judges to be over my people Israel. Also I will ordain a place for my people Israel, and will plant them, and they shall dwell in their place, and shall be moved no more; neither shall the children of wickedness waste them any more, as at the beginning, and since the time that I commanded judges to be over my people Israel. excerpt 1 Chronicles 17 verses 9 and 10 KJV -God speaking to Nathan the prophet

@@jvlp2046 you wrote: But ask yourself honestly, why was Deborah (sole female Judge) chosen by God to be one of the 12 Judges of Israel... could it be perhaps God did not find any righteous man in Israel at that time? No scripture stating clearly or even hinting at, that Deborah was God's second choice. There was no man that rejected the call to be Judge, requiring a woman to take that place. God wanted to make a point with Deborah, (and Jael for that matter). He wanted, and did, settle the gender matter early on. At about 1100 B.C. He wanted His people under the Old Covenant to be taught her story for about 1000 years. He wanted women to know that they were not spiritually inferior to men. Deborah as a Judge, according to scripture, could judge a man of the sin of premeditated murder and order his execution. Since she was a Judge, God moved through her to save Israel. And when the Lord raised up judges for them, the Lord was with the judge and saved them from the hand of their enemies all the days of the judge; for the Lord was moved to pity by their groaning because of those who tormented and oppressed them. -excerpt Judges 2 A Judge was the most important spiritual leader at that time. But it came about, when the judge died, that they would turn back and act more corruptly than their fathers, in following other gods to serve them and bow down to them; they did not abandon their practices or their obstinate ways. -excerpt Judges 2 Wheresoever I have walked with all Israel, spake I a word to any of the judges of Israel, whom I commanded to feed my people, saying, Why have ye not built me an house of cedars? -excerpt 1 Chronicles 17 verse 6 KJV Major modern English translations like the NASB use the phrasing ...whom I commanded to shepherd My people... In all places where I have walked with all Israel, have I spoken a word with any of the judges of Israel, whom I commanded to shepherd My people, saying, ‘Why have you not built Me a house of cedar?’ -excerpt 1 Chronicles 17 verse 6 NASB translation And obviously she was over the army of Israel as is clearly seen in Judges 4. I wrote a short essay on Deborah. I am very familiar with her story.

Women cannot assume the office of a Pastor. It is very plainly and definitively taught in the Word of God. Have a good day Darlene, but don't believe the lies. Remember that is was the woman who was deceived and not the man and for that reason she cannot assume the office exclusively reserved for men. "Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection. 12 But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence. 13 For Adam was first formed, then Eve. 14 And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression" 1 Timothy 2:11-14 (KJV) God bless

@@Truth537 In case you missed a reply to you above I wrote "Seems to be a world of men pastors doing a fine job of that already, don't you think? Not saying that women don't twist scripture, I am sure there are, but to state that as a reason why women are excluded is hogwash, whitewash, etc. BOTH sexes twist scripture. The twisting is nonsense. Follow the "new" way except what someone picks out follows their preferences - one reason there are so many different denominations. Funny thing about Genesis 3? It was a male - Satan/serpent that deceived Eve the wo-man. Eve repeated what the serpent said to Adam, and Adam listened to his wife and disobeyed God. Genesis 3:17 follows. The blame game, it was the serpent, it was the woman which you gave me. One thing that never appears to change much, people do not accept responsibility for their decisions/actions." "you state above it was the woman who was deceived and not the man" umm, last I looked, Adam bit that fruit and disobeyed God as well!

@@walkbyfaith1258 1 Timothy 2:14 "And it was not Adam who was deceived by Satan. The woman was deceived, and sin was the result" Nobody is playing the blame game here and is anyone suggesting that we ought not take responsibility for our actions? Perhaps you should take the time to read my comments with a little more care and precision...Take care...

@@Truth537 If Adam wasn't deceived by Eve (1 Timothy 2:14), then why did sin enter not by Eve but by Adam (Romans 5:12)? I didn't say anyone else said anything about not taking responsibility, I did. Maybe you need to read more carefully as well. Adam was supposed to be head of house, but Eve was deceived. Regardless of who was or wasn't deceived, they both disobeyed God. Have a good night and take care.

@@Truth537 ps can you give scripture that states your comment "Remember that is was the woman who was deceived and not the man and for that reason she cannot assume the office exclusively reserved for men."

You are incorrect. Adam was not deceived by Eve. It is quite clear that he sinned knowingly and in Romans Paul states that sin entered the world through one man. Fast forward to the last days, and we know there will be false teachers that deceive weak women. These are women in an unsaved state who fall for hollow false religion - a strange gospel - but the teachers of religion are misusing it for their own gain. The antidote now, as then, is learning and spiritual growth. Paul is very clear he wants all the saints to eat spiritual meat, not having to drink the infant milk of the basics again and again. Your theological stance infantilizes women as if they cannot become spiritually mature.

​@@elibennett6168 Thank you for the time to respond, but sorry I disagree with you... why?... the Biblical TRUTH comes in 1 Timothy 2:14... St. Paul clearly states, "It was not ADAM who was deceived but the woman (Eve) who is in transgression (sinned)."... Since Adam was the Head of the Woman, even if the woman made the transgression, it will always be in Adam's responsibility... why?... for Eve was taken from Adam's bone and flesh... Adam (man) was the Head of Eve (woman). Just like the Captain of the Ship, even if his crew/staff made mistakes/faults, the Captain will always be the one responsible for the Captain being the Head of His Ship... Just like any country, if the Economy collapse (recession), or enter into War, the President is still to be blamed and responsible, even if the President has nothing to do with it... the same analogy... why the Bible said, "thru one MAN (Adam), SIN enters this world," (generally, but not categorically)... although technically, God knew that was not the TRUTH... it was the Woman who was deceived by the serpent (Satan)... and Eve deceived Adam by giving him the fruit by showing Adam that the fruit did not harm her after she ate (she did not die), and Adam believed in her and ate also, and both of them lost their IMMORTALITY (almost all the Image and Likeness of God thru their sin)... that was the true story and the TRUTH of the matter... according to the Bible... God punished Adam for believing the word of his wife's (Eve), instead of believing in the "Word of God"... That is why, we need to Trust and believe FIRST in the Word of God, before the Word of Mankind... Jeremiah 17:5 /paraphrased... "Curse is the Man (person) who put his TRUST to Mankind and make his flesh/body his strength and whose hearts departed (turn away) from the Lord thy God."... Amen. That is why God sent His only Son (The Word/Christ) to the world to save mankind, that whoever believes in HIM (Word/Christ) will not die but have eternal life... Christ Jesus is the only one who could bring back our IMMORTALITY (the whole Image and Likeness of God) that was lost at the Garden of Even thru Adam/Eve's transgression... when?... at the 1st Resurrection of the Dead People of God at the last (7th) Trumpet Sound (Revelation 20:4 / 1 Thess. 4:13-18)... Glory, Praise, and Thanks be to God, in Christ Jesus' name... Amen

@@jvlp2046 I do understand you have a hierarchical view of creation order and you are unlikely to change from that, but the garden conditions were harmony and communion. Eve was deceived but Adam sinned knowingly. To say he was deceived by Eve is not correct and does not line up with scripture. He had been given the command directly by God before Eve existed. When he sinned their eyes were opened, not before, thus dominion fell to Satan who had the power of death (Hebrews 2:14). Adam was a pattern of Christ to come, but could not save Eve because he had broken the command. Christ is our perfect "head" or source of the church because he was sinless. God was the "source" of the incarnate Christ, the only begotten son. The rest of us are adopted sons. This is why the creation order is important, because salvation had to come through Christ and Christ alone. Christ was progenitor and able to save while man was helpless. There is much more to be said but I'll leave it here since this turned into a long post.

@@elibennett6168 When it comes to Spiritual Matters (Family and Church), That was God's WILL that if you love God, you will follow and obey God's WILL without question or disagreement... If God wants ADAM (Man) to be the Head of EVE (Woman) for Adam was created first, and from his bone and flesh Eve was taken, so be it... God has His reasons why, who are you to question our creator? God's WILL be done... Amen.

@@elibennett6168... With due respect... FYI, it is not about HIERARCHY, but it is all about God's WILL/DESIRE/WANT... The Bible said, "Christ Jesus' Head is God, every Man's Head is Christ Jesus, and every Woman's Head is Man"... 1 Corin. 11:3/paraphrased... Amen.

+Tom Siegel Feminism has no place in the church

+Christian Soldier amen.

+Christian Soldier or out of the church for that matter.

bryan furr amen

Perhaps there is no record of her teaching a mixed congregation (though this is rarely disclosed with male teachers either, just assumed). The Bible does clearly indicate that she took part in instructing Apollos, and at this time that was something radical.

Paul taught from the torah, Well versed in it

@@bmurp1201 Paul called Torah laws " a curse".. Are you crazy? Paul makes to many blatant errors in Jewish laws to even have been a Jew let alone a rabbi. Nonsense.

@@MitzvosGolem1 you had better read your bible before making a statement that dumb,easy to get in trouble with God speaking against His Apostles

@@bmurp1201 we don't accept the new testament or apostles. Thanks

@@bmurp1201 ps : which bible? You Christian s have hundreds of variant versions.

So again what curse? God cursed the devil. He cursed the ground.

Please provide the scriptural reference to the place in the Law that is reference in your first quote (verse 34).

There were women prophets in the Old Testament it is man that says women can't

Jesus also used yeast/leaven in a positive light to describe the expanse of the Kingdom of God. So I don't think you can see this guy has a warped view in using the phrase, "Yeast of the gospel."

Amber Gardner I don't think it is a good idea to start saying what is and isn't a good translation. Unless you are a Greek scholar. Are you? I am not but all translations read with the words, "woman" & "man". I checked: NKJV KJV ASV NASB ESV NIV NET WEB These are all good translations. I am not saying that the Greek word in the context is not genetic and can mean either woman or wife because it can. The word is: γυνή. It can mean married woman or an unmarried woman. The context is the ONLY way to tell. I do believe that you would be hard pressed to say that wives are the only women who must dress modestly. So, single women don't have to dress modestly? That verse is right before this so, you can't say that applies to all women and this verse applies only to wives. The context is clear that all women are the target of the command.

1 Timothy 2:15 shows us that 1 Timothy 2:12 refers to marriage. As Paul ties it with childbirth

your right ray

NT Wright will give you a clearer discussion on that text Ray. First century thinking and what life was like then had dimensions that Paul was addressing.

Well of course. Egalitarians need to avoid those passages just like pro-homosexuality "Christians" need to avoid passages like 1 Cor 6:9-10. Because those passages don't give any grands for what they prefer. and if those passages come up they need to bring in their gymnastic skills to start twisting and turning Scripture.

So what then is the repercussions for women who are senior pastors, preachers, etc?