The patience is unreal. By the end of the last match that JP was conditioned to not throw out spikes or ghosts in fear of eating lvl 2. So much so that he walked himself into the corner against a burnt out Zangief. Checked all the drive rushes and stopped a bunch of teleports too. JP was waiting for a whiff that never came. Snake eyes is a pro at standing there menacingly.
@josefernandez4423 To be fair, Reynald had it and let it go. All he had to do was press mp+mk after he landed cr.lp, and he would have won. Not that it takes anything away from Snake's W. But there is definitely a s**tload of timelines where Snake lost and the tier army decides Gief is the worst character in the game.
You don't form your own army to fight for diferent nations of the world and secretly control the United States without being a legend. We're talking about that Snake, right?
I'm so glad us grappler players can claim one CRACKED OUT player like Snake Eyez. He's such an inspiration for the grappler grindset. No matter how zoned out you get, you can still put the fear of God into a zoner once you make it in.
I remember seeing a Marisa series once and you could see the intimidation in the later matches as she could just walk up and punch. This really reminds me of that.
It makes me so happy to see Snake Eyez playing Zangief in SF6, after seeing him give up on him in SFV. This man was one of my biggest inspirations for playing Zangief, good to see this man cooking again!
One thing that all of the top giefs have in common that is really underrated: These are players with *incredible* endurance. They've been playing gief for decades in a place where the standard MO is "Just keep gief out and wear him down", which is fine... but when you're getting into set two, set three with multiple 60+ second rounds you just get tired... but this is the world these giefs have lived in since the dawn of time so they absolutely have the stamina for it, and when you make a mistake because you're 5+ minutes in of zoning they capitalize on it and run you into the dirt.
@@yomi_jeremy3964 Yep, and that's why the giefs who are successful manage to be so successful. (Admittedly, I wasn't very clear that I meant the opponent was being worn down in the original post. My bad) Any match with gief in it is an endurance match for both players, and the gief mains play a lot more games with gief in it so they've built up some endurance to work with.
I'd like to add that what separates a good grappler player from an amazing one is having the ability to gaslight your opponent into making bad decisions Getting into your opponents head is the biggest trademark of good grappler play
Nah, SE is just cracked. Gief is still awful. His anti airs barely work as anti airs now. Lariat can't handle crossup and his level 1 only hits when the moons of Jupiter line up to form a pentagram shaped eclipse on the surfaces of Neptune.
@@krampusthestoryteller1416 I mean he wasn't in SF 5, if you're trying to say the balance has nothing to do with Gief being viable in SF 6. SE couldn't even play Gief in SF 5
Can we get more tournament reactions from Max pls? I love the amount of insight and education he's provided with this and the other finals he reacted to.
Snake Eyez is definitely one of the greatest grappler players of all time. He is an absolute monster not just with Gief in Street Fighter, but is also currently the best Potemkin player in Guilty Gear Strive. I love watching him play no matter what game it is.
As a lifelong Grappler main and someone who has watched Snake Eyez since SF4 (When I was ironically maining Hakan, not Gief), I will say that while Grapplers have super low-lows where it feels like you can't do anything, the high-highs make up for it. It's all about methodically pacing that other person around the stage and punishing their normally minor mistakes with huge damage and making them doubt their own confidence. Either that, or going full caveman mode, throwing caution to the wind and completely dismantling your opponent's gameplan by showing no self preservation as long as you get a grapple which ALSO makes them doubt their approach to fighting you. The satisfaction comes from the struggle. Without it, Grapplers would just be big guys who deal big damage with nothing else spicing them up. The fact that they don't have huge combos, mobility or utility, however, makes them play like the "Survivalist" of fighting game archetypes and because of that you have to make due with what you have, and there is nothing better than wiping the grin off of a smug rushdown player's face when they realize their braindead pressure strategies are going to get them killed and they need to form another strategy. Grapplers make people doubt themselves and that's part of the fun. They're not a knowledge-check, but an integrity check; are you going to keep your cool and make the right decisions against me or are you going to panic once you see how little having a full health bar actually means? Your choice. "The fear of the command grab is often stronger than the command grab itself. Neutral is also for wussies. Let me grab you." -Zangief, probably
@@Sharkofspace In 6, grapplers don't get oki off command grabs. They literally cannot have braindead pressure since they have no pressure after fulfilling their main goal. Meanwhile all the rushdown characters either get perfect timed dash or drive rush into 50/50 strike throw off of what feels like just about everything they do.
@@Mosan13 Gief does the same thing. SPD for 50% > DR > 50/50 strike throw except if he wins he gets the other half of your life. Or he can just lv3 to get skip a round.
@@Sharkofspace SPD doesn't do 50% what are you talking about lol. It does 2500 for the light version up to 3300 for the heavy. And pretty sure you can just back jump if they drive rush in and you'll be insanely safe. You might even be able to jab out of it. Pretty sure it also only reaches if you literally sit there a block, Gief's rush goes literally nowhere.
The raw patience Snake exhibited in this match was utterly awe inspiring. I'm with Max on this one, Snake didn't win this because Gief just randomly has a good matchup against JP. Snake won this because raw patience, skill and conditioning was able to overcome a bad matchup. I'm not convinced it's a 7-3 matchup simply because I don't think those exist in SF6, but it sure af ain't better than 6-4 in JP's favor.
@@webbowser8834this is what people don’t understand though, if you pick Zangief, you have to be patient, you’re signing yourself up to be patient. Yet most Gief players start taking unnecessary risks 10 seconds into the game.
@@webbowser8834 from top 16-8 anything can happend but i think top 6-3 it's decided most of the time by adaptation/control/luck. Reynald beat Snake in winners finals very easy and i think that was his doom he didnt took the game fast enough to adapt like Snake was doing at the end. And Snake did not only came with a better defense and a plan but also came 100% ready to bet it all on it after the semifinals with Nephew wich in my opinion was the best match overall with that all in bet from both players at the end.
I really think to some degree this is what Capcom wanted with this game. Max is right that a lot of Snake Eyez winning is Snake Eyez himself, but the game also gave him the tools to do it and it seems to me that the difference between S tier and D tier in SF6 isn't as wide as it is in a lot of other fighting games. It makes it a more fun game to watch when even a bottom tier character can realistically win.
I main Zangief, Guile, and do a tiny bit of Chun-Li. Let me tell you........Zangief is ALL about "patience" and taking as much punishment as possible, while you scare the shit out of your opponent and position yourself to begin the slaughter once you catch them slipping! It's just a lot of hits to get there lol.
I remember seeing Snake Eyes do these kinda things back in SF4. He's always had that patience and the spacing to make something as simple as walking forward look like the most terrifying move on the planet. I always felt it was a shame that he really didn't get much in SF5. Sure, he still had Gief, but that Gief was different, somehow, and it looked like he really couldn't play his style with that Gief. (I often wondered if he wouldn't have done better with Birdie.) Nevertheless, SF6 has brought back the classic spacing in a way that clearly has allowed Snake Eyes to run his gameplan again, and I have to say, it looks amazing. And Max is absolutely right about his experience. Snake Eyes won because he was Snake Eyes, not because Gief is secretly OP. Glad to see him return as the grappling master, there to keep the top tier players nervous. 😆
Couldn't agree more. Snake eyes is always a treat to watch and every match is a learning session. I shamelessly play Modern Zangief (I'm an MK gamer myself and SF6 is my first SF). I almost master with my modern gief and I love watching this man play. He is the pinnacle of the grappler archetype.
I never liked grapplers in FG, but for some reason I really connected with Zangief in this game, it's just really fun. I struggle a ton to know when to defend and when to attack and didn't get used to the mechanics yet, so I lose more than I win, but I just really enjoy when I do. I'll try to learn from Snake's matches and get better, it's always fun to learn more of a character you like.
Playing "bad" characters can sometimes teach you patience and emphasis on fundamentals (if that character just doesn't have any viable gimmicks or shenanigans).
indeed, the more powerful the system mechanics are the easier it is for low tiers to fight high tiers. because a character's total power is the system mechanics + it's own mechanics, and with more system power the character's individual power has less weight on the matchup.
You saw it live? I watch it here, full knowing that he won and still my heart was pounding and i was like "omg pls win" and i wanted to him to win so badly cause 1: i dont like JP and 2: i like being on the side of the underdog. I barely know anything about tournaments and pros players, i might watch some fights from time to time. This Snakeye guy is one of the few pro players i know something about them cause from the day SF6 came his name pop all the time for SF6 and i like him a lot cause i like people who play the underdog char. and make them look cool, i too always play with those fighters, like Dahslim. To this day i don't think i ever face one, i dont know if the game dont match u with mirror matches or people on Diamond and below dont play him. Same was on Tekken 7 with Yoshimitsu. The reason am rambling so much is because the reason i dont watch Tournaments is any time i try to watch a game i always see pros play the meta char. and i dislike that, like people play the same over and over (for example SF6: Ken, JP\ T7: Akuma, Geese) ik they play them cause they try to use any means nessesary to win but.....its boring matches but this...this one was beyond words, the way he blocked, he reads, he checks the opponent was phenomenal on a match up that was unfair for him. It was pure skill and years of experience. Are there many moments like this in tournaments or its just rare case? If yes, can you help me of where to watch them. I dont mind if i can't watch them Live and watch them the next day as long there is no spoilers on titles and thumbnails. and what Grand Final "Reset" means? Also sorry for this long comment, words pouring out of my mind after i watch this game set lol.
Snake eyez has gotten a lot better at managing his meter. I remember early in SF6 he would enter burnout like every round haha. But you kind of have to with Gief. So the fact he is able to function without going into burnout always is a huge evolution point.
Honestly, just make his Denjin Charges able to stack or perhaps turn his Denjin State into a Denjin Install Lvl 2 Super and Ryu would be a solid A tier, IMO. His high damage gameplans revolving around Denjin while having to give up oki and meaty opportunities just hurts his character.
I propose an alternate denjin charge (down, down+kick? different strengths? etc.) that can only be spent on hashogeki/shoryuken. This is great because Ryu can save it for big combos. And in addition he can charge it from fullscreen instead of dropping oki. Both while retaining the hadoken as an expendable pressure tool.
There's two changes I'd like to see for Denjin charge: First, let Ryu cancel directly from denjin charge into Hadoken/Hashogeki, kinda like Akuma's VS2 worked in Street Fighter 5. This would give him the same kind of mind-game that Guile gets with sonic blade, where Guile can throw sonic blade to bait you into thinking an enhanced sonic boom is coming, then flash kicking you as you jump. Second, make it so where only H and OD Hadoken can be Denjin Charged, so that Ryu players can still throw fireballs if they want to keep their Denjin charge, kinda like how let G use his level 2 specials while in level 3. I think these two changes would do a lot to make Denjin more usable, or at least give ryu players more options around Denjin to make it feel better to play with.
What I like about Snake is when you watch him stream, he’s always talking about different options he could’ve done and calculating the “mental stack” of his opponents. He’s also always watching old clips of himself and other Zangief players, so he’s constantly learning and adapting his play style.
I'm one of those players that enjoys the challenge of maining Gief in recent years. The tougher the match-up the better. It's made me improve both in patience and defensive play. Nothing is more satisfying the winning against another player, especially if they're higher ranked than myself, with him. That said, Snake-Eyez is a freaking monster and I will never be anywhere near his level but damn is he fun to watch.
FChamp talked about this tech when he did some pre-evo training with Chris T, but you can hold down a button in reaction to the flash of drive rush. This "stores' the input and makes it really easy check raw drive rush situations. The trick to it is knowing which button to hold at various ranges they might drive rush from.
I love his interview afterwards where he said there’s a placebo affect of people saying Zangief is weak. I know Gief players like to complain but I’ve never been blown up by Gief badly in previous games as I have been in blown up by Gief in SF6.
Never watched Snake until recently when I found him on Guilty Gear. This dude, even as Pot consistently closes the gap. His patience is crazy. That Drive Punch cancel into Command Grab gave me flashbacks to his Strive days. Lots of good Hammerfalls into Buster.
I do play other characters, but I’ve always been a huge fan of grappler/heavy characters in fighting games myself. No matter what their tier might be or how hard they are to play. It’s always great too see those characters shine and watch how the players show what they can do.
there was actually a geif in top 8 of the japan world warrior. but that tournament didn't have as varied a top 8 as this one. 2 kens, 3 JP's, a cammy, a kimberly and a geif. honestly, the low tiers are out in force recently. Ryu, Geif, Kimberly and Dhalsim getting results
I love when devs do enough testing pre release and during the beta that upon release they can wait a long time before making any balance patches. Let the metagame reach its maximum depth.
This Zangeif play. Reminds me so much of a good Reinhardt from Overwatch. Where you gotta be patient and bait out dangerous abilities. And once you see an opening to take space? You must seize and fight to keep it. And once you've closed the distance? Do big damage. Make them scared to fight back. Then momentum is on your side.
I think the thing about SF6 tier lists is they exist as in all fightnig games there will be always the top and the bottom tiers but the difference in SF6 is the distance between the top and bottom is way more narrowed than in previous SF games. Everybody is way more clumped up together.
on the point you were talking about with parries is also once you start parrying JP thats when they start teleporting in and getting PC grabs and they start throwing the fake ghost to get you to parry to waste your drive gauge thats why he blocks so much of the projectiles instead of holding parry
ive been playing gief in sf6 and seeing snake eyes show confidence in a burnout scenario against jp is so inspiring the threat his 2 bar held over reynald was enough
As someone who loves playing slow big bodies in fighting games (Goldlewis in GGST, Incineroar in Smash, also Zangief in SF6, etc.) I really get a lot of what Max talks about having to learn when playing these types. Patience is a big damn thing.
I’ve been accused of doing the “pick a bad character just to say you beat someone with said character” but in actuality I just pick characters for vibes they just end up being low tier a lot 😅
the best way to sum this up is Reynald was playing his Character while snake eyez was playing against Reynald's charcter. 1 person had a plan and the other person was just doing what normally works.
When Max was talking about how system mechanics for some games make it to where any character can at least compete Tekken is the best example I think easily. The extent of a “bad matchup” in that game is like you’re opponent has a 13 frame WS launcher for your good low but even then that isn’t enough to change the game entirely. Jeondding continues to prove that even the lowest of the low with Eddy can compete easily regardless of strength. And then if course there’s rangchu with panda in 2019
Now if you listen to max he's giving this game and it's player base alot of credit but if you listen to ltg he'd swear this game has one button inputs and easy mode combos ,these two players couldn't be more different because one person actually knows what he's talking about (max) and one is senile lol.
This was a treat! wow I could feel the experience snake eyez has in just the way he moves both players were amazing but that grief was like a wall stopping jp at every turn lol
Punk, Big Bird, Angry Bird, Kakeru n Snake Eyez have made such great protagonists for vanilla SF6, they r so captivatin as far as gamestyle, character choice n narratives surroundin their triumphs. I look forward to the further development of dis game’s competitive scene, n im happy everyone has enough firepower to stand their ground- at the HIGHEST lvl of gameplay, against the WORST possible matchups. Amazing to see Cammy, Gief, Ken, Marisa n JP all bein represented by the PEAK of competitive SF6 skill!! Edit: im not sure if dis version counts as vanilla, but there hasn’t really been any patches yet+Rashid is the only dlc added n he hasn’t really seen much pro play yet as far as im aware
The numerous defensive mechanics without being super-hard is part of what makes this game fun, like you have options and can actually do stuff. For a while, I thought that the MPK cancel was like the FADC where you input forward twice. Once I found out you don't, it was easy to learn stuff.
In that final set final game final round, I think Reynald thought if he went for a special cancel Snake Eyez would just level 2 him for the win so he wanted to block it? Extreme levels of patience from the man to get it done.
