You mention Joseph’s involvement with the Mormon Missouri war and the Dannites, but Joseph indirectly condemned the Salt sermon (which instigated the Mormon Missouri war) and directly condemned the dannites in his epistle from liberty jail. Was this a change of heart or was his involvement and knowledge of these things less than we assume? He called Sampson Avard wicked and seemed to blame it on him in its ENTIRETY. “I would further suggest the impropriety of the organization of bands or companies by covenant or oaths by penalties or secrecies but let the time past of our experiance and sufferings by the wickedness of Doctor Sampson Avard suffise” (avard being the founder of the dannites) let the sufferings by HIS wickedness suffice. Do you believe Joseph was simply trying to underplay his involvement ? Or was he truly not involved
Joseph's modus operandi never seemed to be that of a prophet, rather a con man and wicked user of honest, ignorant people. That is my conclusion from what you have said and implied in this podcast. I cannot in any form of conscience agree with your own conclusion. I don't even believe in god, but your conclusion makes Him look like a fool. Joseph, all by himself, was clever enough to be the evil charlatan he chose to be; "Praise to the man" indeed!?
Maybe it should be role instead of bounds. However, God does give all of us specific roles or boundaries. Can I start speaking for God? Can I start creating churches? Can I start writing scriptures?
Joseph was wrong does not make god wrong. Christianity wrong does not make god wrong Islam wrong does not make god wrong Judaism wrong does not make god wrong A damNATION 🏛️ D C eived does not make god wrong
Joseph was told his name would be known for good and evil. Why do people assume that some people know his name for good and others for evil? Personally, I know him for good and I know him for evil.
That is an interesting way to look at it. In the LDS church I saw Joseph as an infallible prophet. However, I now see Joseph as a servant of God that made mistakes just like me. We are all doing our best and sometimes that causes problems for others. Very rarely do we mean to go against God. Ultimately, we all have to be humble, repent, and return to God with all of our might.
Thanks for putting all this together! And thanks for posting the text on your website, I’m usually better able to research and dissect a topic when it’s in text, rather than audio alone. o7
I find text better myself also. It is far easier to reference, and fact check text than a video. I think this is what a lot of other channels do as a disservice to their audience. Most people listen to a video and get an emotional reaction to the topic. However, it is very difficult to fact check afterwards. Even if the video has raw links in the description, it is still much harder to fact check and get context as to what the author was saying. I don't claim everything I say is true. However, I will claim that everything I say is backed by what I consider authoritative sources and these are easily available to anyone to verify.
42:23 - How can you hold Joseph Smith as a prophet of God when he has clearly lied and had numerous false prophecies? Show me in the scriptures where a prophet has lied and was still a prophet? None, ZERO, if they lie they are a false prophet. So what is your evidence that he is a true prophet of God? I see a ton of evidence to the opposite. True Prophets of God do not lie. True Prophets of God do not seek glory for themselves. True Prophets of God do not use people (Martin). True Prophets of God obey God's commands they do not do what they want. True Prophets of God to do not contradict other Prophets, or God Himself. All of this says that Smith is a false prophet, so how do you look at this list and say the opposite?
41:23 - "He stopped getting revelation" - No he never did, and since he was in control he only needed to pull out the revelation card when he need to change something.
40:45 - Again you are assuming that Joseph was a prophet of God and you want to ignore the scriptural evidence that he was not a prophet of God, but just a person who was trying to make money. Joseph changed "his revelation" when it was necessary to further his goals. Again take off the blinders and see the truth.
Either Joseph was a 100% false prophet from the start or he was a true prophet at some point and then fell. I believe the Book of Mormon is scripture so at time at some point Joseph was a true prophet.
@@uncorrelatedmormonism But that’s inconsistent with the Bible. The Bible and the BOM are at odds and and it clearly shows that it is not the same God. The question is which one is correct? The Bible clearly states that Smith is a false prophet and if he is a false prophet NOTHING he says is trustworthy. One doesn’t go from being a true prophet and becomes a false prophet, there’s no support in the scriptures for that conclusion. So what are you basing your conclusion on? It’s not the Bible. If Smith is a false prophet then it’s all false. Deuteronomy 13:1-2 ESV "If a prophet or a dreamer of dreams arises among you and gives you a sign or a wonder, 2] and the sign or wonder that he tells you comes to pass, and if he says, 'Let us go after other gods,' which you have not known, 'and let us serve them,' Smith says that the God in the Bible is a false God, this verse says he’s wrong. So why do you trust Smith when God says don’t trust him?
@@darinbracy8433 That very scripture shows that a prophet can give a sign or wonder that comes to pass, meaning they are a true prophet, then they can go after false gods and become a fallen prophet or a false prophet. Not everyone is always 100% good or bad. We are a mixture of true and false.
@@uncorrelatedmormonism Where does it say that? It doesn’t say anything like that. That just allows you to believe that he’s not lying when he did this but is lying later. I don’t believe people who lie and don’t repent of their lies. Smith lied repeatedly and he blames everyone except himself for his lies.
38:53 - Again you are assuming that these were actual revelations. Why are you unwilling to say that Smith just made it all up. The amount of false information makes it clear that Smith was lying, and to act like he was just getting bad intel from other sources is just laughable.
37:22 - How can someone individually canonize that which only he himself received? Again I draw you back to 2 Peter 1:20 2Pet. 1:20 knowing this first of all, that no prophecy of Scripture comes from someone’s own interpretation. The Bible clearly teaches that one cannot canonize their own interpretation.
36:09 - There is no such thing as a false revelation. Revelation only comes from God, and that has ended. Again refer back to 2 Peter 1 2Pet. 1:21 For no prophecy was ever produced by the will of man, but men spoke from God as they were carried along by the Holy Spirit. Do you see that, NO prophecy was EVER produced by the will of MAN. So there is no revelation from any other source than from God, and that source of revelation ended with the closing of the scriptures. Rev. 22:18 I warn everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book: if anyone adds to them, God will add to him the plagues described in this book, Rev. 22:19 and if anyone takes away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God will take away his share in the tree of life and in the holy city, which are described in this book. Closed over with.
35:44 - Ezekiel 14 is about idol worship. It has nothing to do with what you have said. I have no clue how you can see that here. The other half of Ezekiel 14 is about the destruction of Jerusalem, so where are you getting that interpretation? Ezek. 14:1Then certain of the elders of Israel came to me and sat before me. Ezek. 14:2 And the word of the LORD came to me: Ezek. 1 4:3 “Son of man, these men have taken their idols into their hearts, and set the stumbling block of their iniquity before their faces. Should I indeed let myself be consulted by them? Ezek. 14:4 Therefore speak to them and say to them, Thus says the Lord GOD: Any one of the house of Israel who takes his idols into his heart and sets the stumbling block of his iniquity before his face, and yet comes to the prophet, iI the LORD will answer him as he comes with the multitude of his idols, Ezek. 14:5 jthat I may lay hold of the hearts of the house of Israel, kwho are all estranged from me through their idols. Ezek. 14:6 “Therefore say to the house of Israel, Thus says the Lord GOD: lRepent and turn away from your idols, and turn away your faces from all your abominations. Ezek. 14:7 For any one of the house of Israel, or of the strangers who sojourn in Israel, kwho separates himself from me, taking his idols into his heart and putting the stumbling block of his iniquity before his face, and yet comes to a prophet to consult me through him, mI the LORD will answer him myself.
I think you misunderstand Ez 14. "Thus saith the Lord GOD: Every man of the house of Israel that setteth up his idols in his heart, and putteth the stumbling block of his iniquity before his face, and cometh to the prophet; I the LORD will answer him that cometh, according to the multitude of his idols" This is the same thing with the lost 116 pages. If we pray to God and only want one thing, then sometimes he will give it to us. However that doesn't mean it is the best thing for us.
@@uncorrelatedmormonism No sir you are completely wrong. You are looking at this from a man centric perspective rather than God centric. We don’t make interpretations of an entire chapter from a single verse but from the entire chapter. The chapter which I posted. Ezekiel 14:2-3 ESV And the word of the LORD came to me: [3] "Son of man, these men have taken their idols into their hearts, and set the stumbling block of their iniquity before their faces. Should I indeed let myself be consulted by them? Idol worship right there in verse 3, God speaking to Ezekiel about idol worship. It has nothing to do with giving man what he wants.
@@uncorrelatedmormonism And there’s no lost pages, because it was all a work of fiction. Everything points to Smith being a fraud from the start but you claim he was receiving revelation from God, but the Bible states clearly that no interpretation of the scriptures is from a single person. Why don’t you believe that?
@@darinbracy8433 Idol worship doesn't mean praying to a statue. Anything can be an idol. Ez 14:4 ESV - "Thus says the Lord GOD: Any one of the house of Israel who takes his idols into his heart and sets the stumbling block of his iniquity before his face, and yet comes to the prophet, I the LORD will answer him as he comes with the multitude of his idols," God is going to answer us according to our idols. Isaiah 66:4 - I also will choose their delusions, and will bring their fears upon them. 2 Thessalonians 2:11-12 - And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie; 1 Kings 22:23 - the LORD hath put a lying spirit in the mouth of all these thy prophets
@@uncorrelatedmormonism God doesn’t give revelation anymore to individuals. You seem to not to want to deal with 2 Peter 1:20-21. How does your interpretation of Ezekiel 14?
34:10 - "It is not clear" - Yes it is clear, if you would remove the blinders off you eyes and look at the facts you have laid out here in this video. Smith was a con man, he was a cheat, he used people. This statement alone from Hiram Page is clear evidence that Smith was not a man of God, but a man who was seeking material wealth. the BOM was never about anything other than making money.
32:47 - So the revelation just happens to take place so that it gives Smith permission to exclude Martin from profiting from the copyright of the BOM? Does this sound like something God would actually say, or is it that Smith made it up and told everyone that God told him to do this. It seems that God told Smith to do a lot of stuff that worked for Smith, and not so much for others.
@@uncorrelatedmormonism So 2 Peter says that revolution is only from God, no other source. Satan can’t give revelation, revelation by definition is information given by God, anything else is just false information. And if you believe that Satan who is not God, was influential in Smith’s life, then one could conclude that Satan inspired Smith to write the BOM. If Satan can give revelation then how do you know for sure that the BOM is not from Satan?
@@uncorrelatedmormonism but he’s not God. He doesn’t know everything, he can’t be everywhere at once. He’s created and limited, he’s not as powerful as you think. He can only deal with one person at a time. Now is it possible that Satan came to Joseph Smith passing himself off as an angel or Jesus? That’s possible because there was another guy who told a similar story, his name was Mohammad, and there are similar parallels to each of Smith’s and Mohammad’s narratives. Could have Satan possessed Mohammad and then Smith again 1200 years later? Don’t know but it is clear that the BOM is false it’s a fictional story, it completely contradicts the Biblical narrative. The God of the Bible is nothing like the God of the BOM. As we discussed before the story in Ether 2:16-3:1, is a clear example of how dumb this god is. There’s no way that the God of the Bible is the same God of the BOM. And that’s just the beginning. Look I get it. You have been a Mormon for your entire life and you feel like it’s your responsibility to stay Mormon even though you have produced enough evidence in your videos to show beyond a shadow of a doubt that Smith was a fraud and Mormonism is based on a fictional tale made up by Smith for the purposes of making money and later on to become powerful. There is a real God waiting for you who is eternal, not a man. A Christ who can actually save you because He is the eternal God. More than happy to walk you through the scriptures to introduce you to them, and help you shed those Mormon glasses that distort your view of the one true God.
30:58 - questions... 1. Why would God not have provided the means to print the BOM? It seems that Smith had to go to Martin to get the money. If it was truly the Word of God, then God would have provided the means by which the printing would take place without cost to Smith. In all other cases of the printing of the Bible, God has provided the means by which the printing took place it has never been a private enterprise by which people made a profit.
27:36 - You are assuming that.. 1. Smith was telling the truth at the beginning. 2. God was actually speaking at the beginning. The evidence clearly points to these both being false. Smith was making it all up and he never actually heard anything from God, what he heard was the voice of his selfish heart that wanted fame, power and glory for himself. He was a charismatic leader who said spiritual sounding stuff that fooled people who were desperate to have a connection to God. By the standards in Deuteronomy 13 he was a false prophet, and he was judged by God as such.
26:25 - God lied? No Joseph Smith made it up. I am not sure why you are not considering that. It is clear that most everything you have here is Jospeh Smith lying and then changing his story in order to do whatever it pleased him and then saying it was from God.
25:15 - So Joseph Smith took on a title that was only for Christ Himself. This is clearly a blasphemy. Only Jesus is Prophet, Priest and King, for any human to claim that set of titles together is to make himself as God.
13:59 - Look at this verse from 2 Peter, and what is on the screen. Do you not see the contradiction? 2Peter. 1:20 knowing this first of all, that no prophecy of Scripture comes from someone’s own interpretation. Joseph words contradict Peter. Why would God say to Peter no single person is able to interpret My Word, and then tell Joseph Smith that he (Joseph) would be the only one who would interpret God's word? This doesn't make sense.
@@uncorrelatedmormonism Ok so he lied. And if he lied then, how can you say he didn’t lie about everything about the BOM? Show me another prophet in the Bible that lied and was ever considered a true prophet?
@@darinbracy8433I feel like either you didn’t watch the video and just skipped to random points or the point he was making genuinely just lept over your head. The entire point he is making is that Joseph Smith was not excluded when the church was turned over to Satan
3:37 - But 2 Nephi 27:4-5 does not say that he is quoting from Isaiah 29:9-10, in fact it is only part of the scripture. So how is that you are assuming that Nephi is quoting, or is it that Joseph Smith just copied this position of scripture to make it look that way? In the Bible when the writer quotes a prophet, he gives credit to that prophet so that the reader knows the source of the information, that is not the case here.
"when the writer quotes a prophet, he gives credit" this actually is not true. Matt 1 quotes from Isaiah with attribution. Matt 2 quotes from Micah without attribution. Matt 3 quotes from Hosea with attribution. Matt 4 quotes from Deuteronomy and Psalms without attribution.
Matthew 1:22 ESV All this took place to fulfill what the Lord had spoken by the prophet: Matthew 2:5 ESV They told him, "In Bethlehem of Judea, for so it is written by the prophet: Matthew 4:4 ESV But he answered, "It is written, "'Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that comes from the mouth of God.'" Each place it notes that it was written by a prophet, and Jesus notes that it was “written in scripture”. Where is such a reference in 2 Nephi? It’s not you are assuming that Nephi took it from Isaiah but he doesn’t say, and the prophet said or it was written, it doesn’t say either of these, and that’s because Smith copied it from the KJV Bible as he did with a bunch of Isaiah scriptures.
@@darinbracy8433 This is dumb. If you actually read the book you will see what Nephi is saying Matt 9:13 quotes Hosea with no attribution. Matt 12:7 quotes Hosea with no attribution. Matt 21:9 quotes Psalms with no attribution Matt 22:37 quotes Deut with no attribution Matt 22:39 quotes Leviticus with no attribution Matt 22:44 quotes Psalms with no attribution Nephi: "And now I write some of the words of Isaiah" "Now I, Nephi, do speak somewhat concerning the words which I have written, which have been spoken by the mouth of Isaiah." "And now, behold, I say unto you, that ye ought to search these things. Yea, a commandment I give unto you that ye search these things diligently; for great are the words of Isaiah."
@@uncorrelatedmormonism Jesus has the right to quote Himself which are the first two. 21:9 is the crowd, not a direct quote, 22:37 Jesus quoting Himself, same for 38, and 44. You can’t accept that Smith copied from the KJV.
Thank you for making this video! It helped me iron-out many thoughts about Joseph that had been conflicting and/or confusing. I'm still not sure about a couple things, though. In what is now known as Doctrine and Covenants 124, the Lord says that He will reject the church with their dead if they did not complete the Nauvoo temple in the time He appointed to them. We know they didn't complete the temple in the appointed time, but that revelation, if it really was a true one, was received in January 1841, long after Joseph would have fallen to temporal temptations. So how could that be a true revelation? How could we give that section any weight, knowing that Joseph was a "fallen prophet" long before then? Or is there scriptural precedence for a fallen prophet that can still somehow receive revelation? I hope you can tell that I'm sincerely trying to figure things out, as well.
Yes, this is a bit of a problem. The D&C I believe contains some true revelations as well as some wishful thinking revelations. I believe it is consistent to think that Joseph going after what he thought was good could still receive revelations from God. In the Bible many times less that stellar individuals received revelations for various purposes. For instance King Neb with Daniel, Pharaoh with Joseph, and Balaam who wanted to curse Israel for money. If I was to guess I think part of 124 is real, but maybe not the whole thing. Even if they built the Temple then I don't think God would accept them fully. They would have to turn to him and become his people again. They had already been cast out.
The business Joseph Smith ran under the United Order or Firm funded the land purchases, Bishop Store in Kirtland, and the Lords Store house in Independence, Missouri. This was the land of Zion in Jackson County and the Stakes in Kirtland and then Farwest. People would receive land when they consecrated their property. Of course, most members were poor back then. Their tithing would service the loans. When the members were forced out of Jackson County, they lost over 2000 acres. Much more was lost up in the city of Far West. When they surrendered each man with property set bail secured by their land, and then they were threatened out of the country. That way, all their property was essentially stolen from them legally. No wonder the lost tithing from farming on those lands that would support the loans resulted in default. Also, Moroni's visit to the boy Joseph taught him the whole purpose for translating the Book of Mormon. Malachi chapters 3 and 4, as well as the other scriptures he taught, were all about establishing Zion. This began with missionary work and establishing the New Jerusalem. Within the first year of the church, Joseph Smith had located the Temple lot and future city in Missouri. I could go on and on. Up until D&C section 121 almost scripture is about establishing Zion. When you think of things this way, it all makes sense. 😊 The fact that we were driven out and have not kept these covenants is our fault, not Joseph's.
Yes I agree. The members are the ones who failed to live as they should. God said they could redeem Zion in 1836, however the members had no desire. I do think though that some of the problem is Joseph's. In the book "Joseph in the Gap", the author makes the claim that Joseph performed an intercessory atonement for the people like Moses. Joseph then took the sins of the people upon himself. If we look at the Kirtland Joseph vs the Nauvoo Joseph then they appear to be totally different people.
I want to preface this comment by saying I really like Denver. I have met him in person a couple of times and he was even kind enough to attend my baptism. But I have come to your same conclusion: that some of what he says is inspired, and other parts are not. He used to constantly preach against having a “strong man” but allows his followers to put him on that pedestal. I also wanted to believe the best in Joseph and that he did not practice polygamy. But I have come to the conclusion that Joseph only had a conduit to heaven while he had the seer stone. I don’t believe he was ever a prophet, and that he ultimately succumbed to pride causing the expulsion of the “saints” as well as his own destruction. Mosiah 2:22
It is really hard to come to a conclusion like this, because you have to reexamine things in your life. However, I think it ultimately is a very powerful place to be since you understand truth better. We can gain a lot of truth from people like Denver. However, ultimately being surrounded by people claiming you are a prophet and God's mouthpiece slowly corrupts even the best of us. Joseph and Denver both did great things. However at least in Joseph's life, the Nauvoo Joseph was a completely different person from the Kirtland or Palmyra Joseph.
It's strange how in the scriptures with prophets like Lehi, Abinadi, Isaiah, and on and on and on and on... or, in other words, there is a pattern In the scriptures, when the people don't listen to the prophets, the Lord doesn't take away the gifts and knowledge from the prophets. They remain prophets, despite the wicked people who choose not to listen to them. The knowledge of God is never taken away from the righteous. Think Ether, he didn't lose any gifts and knowledge, while his people destroyed themselves. I suggest reading Isaiah 29 and 30 more closely. The people are spiritually blind because they don't listen to the true prophets and because of idolatry. People who are spiritually blind follow prophets who are blind instead of true prophets. The people want false prophets like the ones on youtube to tell them lies and smooth things. Isaiah remains a true prophet throughout his entire book. They Lord doesn't take anything away from him because the people don't listen to him. The entire premise of the beginning of your video ignores almost every story about faithful prophets in the scriptures. In your attempts to slander Joseph Smith, all you're doing is showing us how you can't see basic patterns in the scriptures. (Isaiah 59:10) We grope for the wall like the blind, and we grope as if we had no eyes: we stumble at noonday as in the night; we are in desolate places as dead men. (D&C 52:14) And again, I will give unto you a pattern in all things, that ye may not be deceived; for Satan is abroad in the land, and he goeth forth deceiving the nations
If patterns is how God does things, care to explain not only why the BOM contradicts itself, But also why the LDS doctrine keeps changing? Joseph was not a prophet. I want you to explain why disobedience to God/sin is ever a good thing. If you can't, you need to reconsider whether mormonism is correct, as 2nd Nephi 2:25 proves that the LDS doctrine is not of God, but of Satan.
@@sertinduhm6378 there is a huge difference between the doctrine and early church of Christ Joesph Smith established and the church following his death and run by Brigham Young and his successors.
So basically you ignore the entire video and just focus on one thing. Got it. God absolutely takes gifts away from prophets. The entire Nephite civilization saw a decline in the people and the prophets. 2 Nephi 27:5 says God removed the prophets gifts. This also makes sense. Do you seriously think God is going to give the prophets "further light and truth" when the people won't accept the basics?
I think you are maybe not following your own formula that you expect from Joseph. Did he make mistakes, yes of course he did. The 116 pages is a good example. Even in the revelations he leaves the parts where he is chewed out. Like Sec 93. Few men would do that yet you accuse him of changing things to his own advantage. The feeling I got and yes I did watch to the end, The feeling I got was very dark and I mean very dark. I think you are trying to frame an opinion and pulling straws to do so. Why were the 116 pages lost, Satan trying to work his thing and Joseph was naive and needed Martin.. God foresaw that so the plates of Nephi were there to fill in and I am sure are much better than the original 116 pages. So God also saw that Joseph would try to set up Zion and it would fail as did the bank. 1Ne 21 "4 Then I said, I have labored in vain, I have spent my strength for naught and in vain; surely my judgment is with the Lord, and my work with my God." Yes that is Joseph. Where you go off base is not understanding Satan. You think the 116 pages are the final word. No he had a huge bunch of Mas0ns join the church in Heber, Brigham and the rest of the who's who of the church after the Book of Mormon came out. Fortunately Joseph had Marks in the center stake. Why did Joseph become mayor, and general, because he could not trust the men around him as they plotted against him and his family. The last mayor was a scoundrel bennett, another brigham pal and polygamist wannabe. Joseph was done in from Kirkland and he did not know it. Satan was working the whole time. I know how that being works. Yet all this is exactly what God wanted or at least foresaw. The work Joseph tried to do in building Zion was for a later time after the devil and his followers were removed. Was he perfect no. But the man you make him out to be is very false, I had a lot more written but removed it as would not be appropriate here. I will just say he took those positions in leadership temporally since his enemies like John C Bennett as mayor tried to ruin him when they held them. He could not trust anyone. Law was conspiring with 200 LDS Brother M to chop chop his family and him. I am sorry for the path you are on. I do not believe anything from Nauvoo unless in Joseph's hand or approved by him like the D&C 1844. The 6 who recorded Follett just happened to be polygamist club members. I think you do not know the depths of depravity of his enemies. I see his flaws but do not consider him fallen at all. It is the men like us around him who fell and dragged him down. We even added D&C 130 fake and removed Lectures on faith, changing God from two to three. We deserve what we got and few gentiles will remain. What a mess, Again this was very very dark and deceptive.
Thanks for your opinions. It is clear to me that Joseph was used as part of the fall. Everyone says there was some master conspiracy from Brigham, however this makes no logical sense. There are so many records we have from so many people that it is illogical to think that Brigham made them all up. We even have records from non-Mormons saying Joseph was teaching crazy things. Very few really want to admit the truth. The Expositor was 100% true. Saying you don't believe the King Follett discourse is from Joseph because it was recorded by polygamist is saying you don't believe something if it disagrees with you. Joseph was seeking after false gods, and you can either embrace that or blame Brigham for everything. Where you go off base is understanding that the church lost the fulness and was turned over to Satan. I don't trust anything from Nauvoo even if it came from Joseph.
You are free to send me an email if you have more aggressive thoughts. I personally like to stick with facts, and I would appreciate it if you did as well.
@@FleeingBabylon-Now I don't think he was a fraud. I certainly believe in the Book of Mormon. However, Kirtland Joseph is not the same person as Nauvoo Joseph. I really would encourage you to study more and not take everything personally.
@@uncorrelatedmormonism I know you don't see it. I have studied a ton on this as have you and my conclusions in no way align with yours and that is ok.
Also, has anyone ekae noticed that the Salt Lake Church speaks less about Joseph than they have inbthe past? They appear to be pushing Obedience to Living Prophets. Perhaps, history has become Problematic...
Yes, there is a sharp drop in speaking about the scriptures or anything in the past. Essentially we are only supposed to remember whatever we are told to remember. For instance, the temple Endowment was just changed and a lot of members are excited about it. However, it was just changed a year or two ago. Was God not capable of making a single change? We however, in the church, are not supposed to think like this. We are just supposed to do as we are told.
@uncorrelatedmormonism I stepped away from the SL Church 20 Yeats ago and have come to understand God in a much better and simpler way without the interference of the Brethren always placing the Church/Themselves between us. I'm a firm Believer in Personal Revelation. Thank you for your Time, Energy, and Knowledge in bringing these Presentations to us.
@@mr.hermit2433 That is good to hear. I have come to understand that the only thing that matters is Jesus. "I glory in plainness; I glory in truth; I glory in my Jesus, for he hath redeemed my soul from hell."
I really enjoy listening to your Presentations. They bring an interesting Perspective and I believe you are closer to the correct line than the Brighamites. The BOM condems Polygamy. I believe Joseph turned away from Gods Will and led the Church down Dark Paths when he used his Postion to pursue his own desires. Perhaps this was because he lost the Companionship of the Holy Ghost when he started to seek those things which we're never his to have...?
I'll add one more thing. Everyone, all peoples would do good to reject every 19th century American Restoration Movement. I mean reject them all. It was an error of total confusions, error, false thinking, false leaders, people grasping to 'restore' that which was *never* lost by people who where utterly lost themselves. Their errors are so great and many people today hold to the most kooky ideas. If your involved in a 'Christian' movement that traces its genesis to a restoration movement you would do best to join any other Christian movement that predates, existed in the 17th century back. It would take a life time to tackle all the restoration movements and their giant, massive lost thinking and error creating folly. I've said enough for now.
I am not sure if this is totally correct, but I do agree with the sentiment. One thing I have come to realize is that the only thing that matters is Jesus. We put so many things between us and God and then worship gods of our own making.
@@uncorrelatedmormonism What your saying sounds good. Yes it does. The counter is St. John says many antichrist have gone out. Many false Jesus. There are so many people calling on the name of Jesus yet the person they know as Jesus is *not* a real person. Not the historical, living, breathing man who healed the sick and himself rose from the dead. There is grave danger in saying only Jesus matters. Many worship and love a Jesus that never was and on that day he says he will say, "I never knew you." Most important is to the one Jesus Christ, Lord and Savior. The one who spoke with, ate and touch Abraham in Genesis 18-19. The LORD (YHWH) who took on flesh and bore the sins of his people. This Jesus who has the power to lay down his life and take it up again, he alone is the only Jesus. To bookend this the Jesus of Joseph Smith is *not* the true historical Jesus who spoke to Peter. To confess otherwise is grave danger that you 'never knew Jesus'.
@@neoturfmasterMVS I think I agree with you. In my opinion the Jesus that Joseph taught in Kirtland was the true Jesus. The Jesus Joseph taught in Nauvoo, was the false Jesus who was made in the image of men.
@@uncorrelatedmormonism Keep this in mind, you could have never heard of Joseph Smith and fully know Jesus. Joseph Smith is worthless, rubish, utterly *not* of value in knowing Jesus Christ. I say all this in love. One born in 1692 not knowing anything of the message of Joseph Smith is far better off as a Christian than one in 1910 who follows the Jesus of Joseph Smith. I know I'm hammering it home: You are far better off to have never known Joseph Smith. He perverts and draws people away from the true Jesus. He holds no value in knowing Jesus, none. To the opposite he is leading people away from Jesus, a grave error, the blind leading the blind, both worse off than having never met.
Joseph Smith definitely didn't get that temple built in Missouri that he prophesied. I could go on, a man of many failures and a life wasted over money and greed. He lived by the sword he died by the sword. Over printing fake money what a silly guy.
Yes, it is hard to know what is true and what is not surrounding Joseph. I do believe the Book of Mormon is of God. However, it seems a lot of what Mormonism is today is built on lies.
The church was condemned and then rejected, not gift wrapped and handed over to Satan. The Lord purposely had Joseph fall to help Satan? The Lord does not work in darkness or secret combinations.
You completely misunderstand so many things and then stand on a soap box proclaiming everyone else is wrong. To be rejected by God means to be in Satan's dominion does it not? Satan is the God of this world, is he not? God's purpose is to free us from Satan's grasp, is it not?
@@uncorrelatedmormonism you have demonstrated through many episodes that you want to diminish Joseph Smith. That is your agenda I do not care for the mental gymnastics that you use to convince yourself you are putting forth something good. People slide from discounting Joseph Smith to discounting the Book of Mormon and the. Try to convince you of a different God. You have already laid out that pattern in your previous videos.
@uncorrelatedmormonism God doesn't reject anyone, it's the other way around. Mankind rejects him and creates the separation. (Isaiah 59:1-2) Behold, the Lord’s hand is not shortened, that it cannot save; neither his ear heavy, that it cannot hear: 2 But your iniquities have separated between you and your God, and your sins have hid his face from you, that he will not hear.
@@MarkHigbee This is the same thing either way. We separate ourselves from God. However, this is the same thing as being rejected by God. This is purely semantics.
You waited to see if I was going to release the video today like I said. 😊 I can tell you didn't even watch it either. Thank you for showing me that you don't care to actually learn the truth. Everything I said was true and backed up with links to the sources. If you don't like the truth, that is not my fault.
The church was not turned over to Satan. The church was condemned, then rejected. Joseph Smith was taken out of the church’s midst, just like Moses was. So Moses was also a servant of Satan? I am beginning to wonder if you are on Satan’s payroll.
Truth is different from fact. Truth is something you believe. Fact is something that’s provable. There is no “proving” a belief so members claim it takes faith. But if a fact interrupts that faith, we as members explain it away until we have to face the fact. Then we decide we were wrong about that ONE item. We need to apply critical thinking for the real story and not just “celestial” thinking.
This is true. It is difficult to realize that religious belief does require a fair amount of rational thought. Most people are taught that whatever you believe is true if you really want it to be.
There is all kinds of evidence of tithing in the scriptures. It is an act of faith. The I cannot afford it is bull! Unplug your streaming services and you can pay your tithing. Do you see the principle? I've paid all my life and have always been a low income earner. I testify to the blessings that were of far more value than the ten percent of my meager income. Exercise faith, and free yourself of your your love of money.
I also struggle with the idea that the bad tree of Brighamism somehow preserved enough of the “priesthood” that flows into the Remnant movement to sustain their practices on some level. Bad tree -> good fruits?? I also don’t agree that entering into their covenant is THE way the gentiles repents and are numbered among the house of Israel. Many remnant members get “lost in the sauce” of doctrine and priesthood without simply turning to Jesus and working out their salvation on their own. They’d rather bicker about things like scripture translations before making sure they’re first right with God-full repentance, calling and election made sure, etc.
This is true. There is a lot to bicker about certainly. 😊 The more I study the more I understand that the whole thing is bad and we need a complete reset. A lot of times we are trimming our spiritual tree by cutting this or that, however we really need to take it down to the stump and let God guide us how we are supposed to go. I doubt God is going to condemn anyone for missing this or that if they really sought him diligently. The idea that Mormonism or any offshoot is a special 1%er club for the most faithful is very dangerous.
A lot of people have claimed that Denver is saying you can disagree all you want, but just don't "curse" him. However, that doesn't seem to be what the text is suggesting. People read what they want into it though. Basically, Denver is saying disagreeing is fine. However, don't disagree too much, whatever that means, otherwise you will get on God's bad side.
Great points in this video! I don’t think there is enough to say that Denver claims disagreeing with him means disagreeing with God, although what he said is close to that. The other points you make are valid and compelling. Great video!
I'm on a similar journey Patrick. I heard your story today and it simply broke my heart. What your local leaders did grieves me deeply. I've been watching "The Chosen" with my children and I cannot help but make parallels between the pharisaical Jewish order and our LDS church. I pray you are able to find a way to be a part of a Christian community that accepts and embraces you. Ideally that would be your own ward, but from what you have described, that sounds unlikely.
Thank you so much. I will say that the journey out of Mormonism can be hard and lonely, however it is completely worth it. God wants us all the abandon our idols and to seek him fully. We can't do this when we are stuck in an artificial box.
Can you make a video on the Adam-God doctrine? I received witness and know that Brigham Young's sermons are real revelations and I find it concerning that it seems like the church does not talks about it (and other things, like the current way the WoW is interpreted) to seem more „normal“ to „mainstream Christians“ or to have a „cleaner“ image. I don't have the perfect words to describe it. Thanks for your videos! I just found your channel recently.
This is insufferable. Mormonism is so obviously false. The Virgin of Guadalupe proves what any person trusting Christ would necessarily believe. His Only Bride is the Catholic Church.
This was my first next thing after leaving mormonism. Eventually too many things like this started adding up but especially the fighting over changing scriptures was a big turn off. And what i hear about his followers they have gotten wrapped up in silly things and ego which makes me glad i didnt stick around. For anyone worried about being fooled again after leaving Mormonism, well its going to happen. Its our ego that doesnt want to be fooled. Unfortunately if you were a Mormon you dont even have the tools to not be fooled. You have to learn them. In the meantime you're going to be fooled and its ok, its part of the process. Just do better when you know better.
I am glad to hear this. When I was kicked out of the church, I did gravitate towards someone some consider a prophet. It was a bit of a softer landing, however ultimately, I had to leave him and go my own way. We are all on our own journey. Many can help us on the way. However, many can hinder us also.
This is all childishly delusional. Even a shallow investigation into Joseph Smith and the BOM reveals a fraudulent con man and an obviously ham-handed attempt at a Biblical sounding holy book. There's MOUNTAINS of evidence to prove this. Open your eyes.
I think Joseph did some good things, however he also did some questionable things. You are correct. I do think the Book of Mormon is scripture though. It is far too reductive to say he made that up.
