This is a perfect analysis of her. There is NO comparison between she & Daenerys and up until “burning Vatican City” she was not a cruel person. Even her punishments of the slavers is not viewed as bad because they themselves have done worse.
This all makes a lot of sense. I could've potentially gotten on board with "Mad Daenerys" story arc if it weren't rushed. As it was, the show didn't "earn" Daeny's "Mad Queen" turn, it felt shoehorned in and out of place, and as pointed out in this very video, ignores her character arc that came before that point. They needed to give her more reasons to "go" mad and they failed spectacularly.
The argument for the realm being held together by her and Robert's marriage would be that Robert is essentially a usurper. Although he does have a claim to the thone (technically) on his mother's side, it's a tenuous one. His legitimacy as King is basically based on the fact that he took it through force of arms. But by marrying Cersei, he created an alliance with the most powerful and influential House in the realm. It's not strictly about Robert and Cersei. It's about House Baratheon and House Lannister. If the Lannisters are acknowledging Robert as King by marrying their daughter to him and installing a Lannister King, is essentially unites all the various political factions in Westeros behind the pairing, irrespective of which side they took in the civil war.
I remember reading in an interview how Emilia Clarke called her family after reading the last script and asking her family what they thought of Dany and if they thought Dany was a good woman and if there was anything Dany could do to make them hate her 😭 DANY THEY COULD NEVER MAKE ME HATE YOU
Cersei over the course of the show has had her power diminished, her lover is now handicapped, she has lost all interest for him in every way shape and form, her father is dead, her dwarf brother killed her eldest son as well as murdered her father, her eldest daughter was assassinated, and her brother younger dwarf brother has now decided with the dragon Queen. All while she has been trying to keep the Lannister name alive finally comes to her breaking point when the High Sparrow charges her which causes her to effectively kill the pope, drive her son to suicide, torturing a nun and declare herself as the queen she deserves better than to be drinking wine in silence and being paid a million dollars an episode
I totally agree with you! Even from the beginning, Daenerys showed signs of being a good ruler and care for the "smallfolk" unlike Cersei or anyone else, she was a morally gray character in the way that she had to make tough decisions to establish her power. It could've been more realistic and intriguing to see her navigating her struggle to power amidst the grief of losing one of her dragons and some of her most loyal companions but still having that compassion that she always had towards the innocents. Heck, Cersei was literally like the mad king and yet the showrunners decided to soften her character and flipped their entire personalities.
About this madness thing... The madness thing is as a whole very bad idea for any character except for a very specific situations. In the books if there is mad queen that will be indeed Cersei and it could work but there is VERY significant feature that makes it plausible. The thing is that madness should NEVER be used as a plot device, especially for a major character. And in Daenerys's case it is exactly a plot device. Without going mad Daenerys is just wining so you invent this pathetic plot device so Daenerys fail only because of this ... bulshit. While in Cercei's case in the books it is exactly the opposite. Cersei is failing and the final result could be eventual descent into madness. So her madness will not be a plot device. It is just a final moment for Cersei. It doesn't even matter very much whether Cersei will be mad or not because her ending will be basycally the same. While with Daenerys it is completely the opposite in a very dumb way. She must still has a dragon and an army so she is in the game. She is not loosing, she is wining ... until we introduce this pathetic bulshit. The eqivalent of that would be something like Tywin to die as a result of a ... heartatack. And then trying to justify it with ""but it was foreshadowed" or another similar trash. Or like having Stannis winning the battle of ice but in the end of the battle some dumb random arrow out of nowhere killing him in an one in a milions kind of accident. And then saying "But it was foreshadowed in the house of the undying scene". So? This somehow changes the fact that this is pathetic way to develop a story? Heart attacks and random arrows happen in real life. But you should never develope the plot using such techniques. So madness, as an ending of character arc which doesn't influence the story but only how we will percieve a character's ending - ok. Madness as a plot twist that will change completely the world in the end of the story - absolutely not. With that said imagine just to replace Cersei's story in Feast with "suddenly Cercei's genes exploded so because of her insanity the lannister rule start to fail". Not because of her bad decisions, not because she alienated everyone around her, nor because her understanding of ruling is totally wrong, not because she surrounded herself with useless yesmen. No, it was because her genes exploded because she was secretly Aerys's daughter or some similar crap! What a pathetic joke it would be. Like season 7 and 8.
You are right. Now I do like Daenerys turning evil but not the way they did it. In my rewrite I thought that Dany should have kept the 2 dragons and then after the bells are rung, Cersei gives the order to kill the dragons with the Scorpions. All Scorpions fire, Dany almost escapes but the other dragon dies, and now she is mad at Cersei because she just lost a dragon, and only becausr she stopped and listened to the bells. Now we are talking on a good reason to destroy kings Landing.
This ties up everything: Cersei being evil and not respecting rules of combat, Tyrion giving terrible advice, Cersei getting Tyrion killed (executed by Dani later on because he cost her one dragon this way) and as the apex of Cersei villainy her turning Khaleesi evill is perfect. Chef's kiss.
You guys remember the scene where Cersei opened the door the servant and Jaime was lying there in her quarters? If that servant grabbed her by the throat and then led to and thrown her out the window to a waiting mob below. I think that would’ve been a better ending to her character than the one she got.
I will NEVER get over the fact that Queen Mother Cersei got off Scott free. It's literally the day of her and Loras' trials and she conveniently isn't present when the majority of the royal court and clergy are in attendance 🤦🏾♂️ And oh yeah, whoopsy daisy, King Tommen mysteriously fell from his royal apartments that same day 🤔 And now you say his mother, the former regent who was sacked and paraded through the streets naked and miraculously survived the explosion of the Great Sept, is now the second woman to claim the title Queen of the Seven Kingdoms, though she has no claims on the throne 😮🤔 But instead we get the citizens of KL CHEERING for her ally in the streets as Euron Greyjoy marches Elaeria Sand and her daughter to the Red Keep 🤦🏾♂️🤦🏾♂️ Rip Good Queen Margaery, I'll always love you 😢
Cersei needn´t to care about the people of King´s Landing. Is like general McArthur fearing the japanese after the atomic bomb. Anyways, the series makes the point many times that commoners are just NPCs with no care at all about whoever rules.
Hey, hey, hey! I will not stand here and listen to you disrespect yourself like this. "my miserable dry sarcasm" Sarcastic? Sure. Dry? I guess. But it's not *miserable*.
It failed because of the writing… especially in the later seasons. They failed to build her arc to the moment… they simply threw in a few scenes showing some tempers, they said “see! mAdNeSs!”
The peasants should have ripped Cersei to pieces. Her actions are what causes revolutions in the real world. If the pesants are capable of storming the dragon pit and killing the dragons then they are more than capable of storming The Red Keep and killing Cercei and her guards, including Gregor.
The peasants arent stupid they would know who blew up the sept, it wasnt the Tyrells and they know that it wouldnt be the will of the Seven, they arent that kind of religious so that only leaves one culprit. This act should have destroyed Cerseis powerbase and pushed people to accept Dany if they werent already. However this is D&Ds GoT and they hated Dany for some reason so logic means nothing.
I always just thought the show should have ended at the end of season 6. You set up all the potential plot points and players for the future. While ending on a high note.
The burning down of kings landing should have been accidental. She swoops in to take out wall top defenders with dragon fire, and the heat cooks off some of the wildfire pots underground. This can cause a chain reaction that would level large sections of the city. Doing it this way, you can still have a lot of people blaming her for destroying the city without her character doing a total 180 to reach that point.
This. Or Jon Connington is actively bringing Greyscale to Westeros and spreading it to every city him and fAegon are taking. Another theory is that he will spread it all over Kingslanding, making everyone in the city crazed and murderous. She might mercy kill the city to stop it spreading to the rest of Westeros. Or she tries to take out contagion in part of the city and activates all the wildfire. All very tragic and it will break Dany's heart. All the more reason to sacrifice herself fighting the others.
Or cercis could just do it herself like she's set up to do in the books, punishing Dany for something that wasn't her fault would be dumb and not how gourge writes consequences.
@@thatoneblackdude3333 Nah, Jon Connington is set to do it in the books. He's traumatized by bells and being driven insane by greyscale. D/D removed the entire Griff plotline so someone else had to take the fall.
@@alex52043 I think it's going to be a combination of Jon con and cerci she's compared to areys twice and has the same obsession with wildfire I don't think gourge is going to not do anything with that .
Thematically, both Cersi and Daenerys going mad makes sense. If one reads backwards from the endpoint to the steps leading to that endpoint, one must explain the following; 1. All the Houses that played the game of thrones were destroyed or nearly so (Houses Lannister and Baratheon were led by a Dwarf and a Bastard respectively). 2. The King (Bran) did not want to be King. 3. The Hand of the King (Tyrion) did not want to be Hand of The King. 4. Jon Snow forfeited his life and his claim to the throne when he assassinated Daenerys, doing so for the good of the realm. 5. The dominant military power at the end of the conflict abandoned Westros and agreed to let Tyrion and Jon Snow Live. 6. The only Lord on the Council of Lord's who sought the throne was Edmire Tully. His neice told him to shut up. 7. The final Small Council was: Tyrion (a freak despised by all), Davos (lowborn, smuggler), Sam (disinherited because a fat coward), Brienne (a freak) and Bronn (a lowborn sellsword with a dubious character). 8. Gone were Tywin, Littlefinger, Varys, Pycell and riffraff like Slynt. 9. Brienne led the King's Guard. The low were made high. Those who sought absolute power died. Democracy replaced the principles "Might Makes Right" and "Right by Succession." Bran and a chastised Tyrion can be expected to rule honorably if not wisely. Dany would not have broken the wheel. The election of Bran did. The narrative that ended with this solution of the conflicts that plagued Westros made sense and conformed to GRRM's sensibilities. The problem with the resolution provided by the show was that it was poorly executed. Dany and Cersi were both mad Queens. The reason: They dedicated their lives to gaining absolute power.
Like every season 8 defender you wrote complete nonsense there's no thematically sense to make both Dany and cerci mad queens , " the low were made hight " ???wtf are you talking about all the people who were elevated were already people of high status rich noble just got richer and more powerful, yea accept Sansa who got a whole kingdom just cause she asked for it , last time I checked you can't have a democracy when a king exists , might makes right still exists , right by succession still exists none of these things were removed with bran being king , you have no basis for that at all bran has never ruled anything and Tyrion post season 4 is a idiot westaros won't last a week with them in charge, no it didn't bran being king doesn't break anything it's no different then when Robert became king , no nothing in season 8 made sense or was in line with gourges work why do you think he literally said multiple times that the book ending will be different? The conclusion doesn't fix any of westaros problems if anything it makes them worse because there's no way brans rule will be sustainable. Dany didn't seek power for the sake of it and someone isn't a villain just because they seek power context matters.
@@sdzielinski if that was true why did you even comment? Also how did I fail to respond I debunked all your nonsense statements suggesting anything in season 8 was coherent and thematic.
Feudalism still exists. Just. because the great houses are gone, doesnt mean others wont rise to take place. Post conquest, the Tyrells swooped on to be elevated to a position of power from stewards to paramount. Its literally the same wheel, but with a different driver. The smallfolk weren't given a say in who rules them, just a select few. Who were also, conveinelty ennobled. The sellsword became a Lord, Davos also became a Lord, Brienne was a noble Lady already, as is Tyrion, who has spent his life playing the game, and wanting power, especially the position of hand (a position he should have in no way been given, considering how utterly INEPT he was). The King is a sentient tree god, the smallfolk didn't choose and cant choose to depose if they dislike because he is a sentient tree god who knows all, can see into their homes, their lives, control their animals and even warg into them in case they decide that hey, his rule is not really to their liking. Real freedom there, a nice Westerosi 1984. Also, Bran didn't want to be King? Then what the fuck was the 'why do you think I came all this way' line? This psycho could see the future. He knew what was going to happen, but didn't stop it. Milluons burned to death and this fucker did nothing to stop it. If that is a 'good King' then I think the White Walkers were better wiping everyone out. The ending was a nonsensical web of bullshit that was rushed beyond reason so the writers could do a star wars movie. If you mean to tell me that George intends to make a 13 yo sexually abused child bride who devoted her life to ending the institution of slavery a tyrant because war bad, and you shouldnt do violence, ever, or you'll become a Mad Hysterical Bitch that needs to be put down like old yeller when her crazy genes inevitably kick in, then I'll happily call him the worst writer in existence. Till then, I'll treat the show as what it is. D&Ds poorly written fanfiction they unabashedly changed against George's advice and wishes.
Вот, кстати, было бы довольно интересно. То есть, Безумие Таргариенов в итоге частично бы объяснялось властью, которую они держали в руках. Серсея бы сошла с ума точно так же, не имея с Таргариенами прямого кровного родства, что показало бы, насколько власть сама по себе губительна, без магии и прочих штук.
Seriously, she killed all her foes in the Sept of Bealor, who TF is going to take her on in Kings Landing, who is her foe in Kings Landing. There simply isn't anyone who can unless you go with the D & D transport thing ... it's not happening.
During the Dance of Dragons, Rhaenyra Targaryen also had an army in the city. An army and dragons. The smallfolk rose up, killed her dragons and drove her from the city for the crime of, wait for it... raising taxes. Cersei killed the pope and the beloved Queen, wiped out a house and a religious symbol. The smallfolk should have burned the Red Keep down. That's not even mentioning all the other, minor Lords that exist in universe. Or would exist if D&D didn't shrink the continent and reduce it to just Lannisters, Starks and the onw Targaryen
Oof, remembering all the bizarre choices made in those last two seasons is like reliving a traumatic event. I remember thinking when the first trailer for season 7 came out (which heavily featured Cersei) that Cersei was going to be the central conflict/antagonist of that season, and that by the finale she’d ultimately be dealt with and the show would move onto the white walkers for season 8. I was SO confused when she was still alive and a problem at the end of season 7, wondering if there was some justification for keeping her around for the long night invasion. Low and behold, it was simply to motivate Dany’s mad queen heel-turn. Prioritizing Daenerys becoming the show’s Big Bad not only ruined her own character arc, but ruined the rest of the show as well.
Realistically, there is NO WAY Cersei could've become queen after blowing up the Sept, Westeros' equivalent to the VATICAN. In real life, she would've had every commoner and noble alike after her.
Henry the II Plantagenet's knights the Archbishop of Canterbury Thomas Becket (not blowing up the whole church just killed the Archbishop) and this caused him huge problems until he made his own walk of penance and many concessions to the Pope , Henry VIII broke with Rome and also had to face numerus issues and rebellions because of that , Elizabeth I re-did the break with Rome and was considered holy duty for every Catholic to rebel against her and mind you by then Lutherans had already a big following while in South Westeros is more of a Henry II period than Elizabethan . Also don't forget that the faith was so pro-Lannister because Stannis was following another religion. After Cersei blew the sept it would be normally the sept in Oldtown that would get the authorities of sept of baelor and Olenna Tyrel would be there to organise things which should have become very grim for Cersei very fast but seriously I don't think the last seasons of GoT were even watchable and that's a pity cause the actors and the whole team were amazing but if the script is stupid everything is futile.
You're assuming: 1) That people weren't sick and tired of the religious cult terrorizing and killing everyone in sight and 2) That they would attribute the destruction of the Sept to Cersei. Two extremely tall orders.
@@SerbAtheist there's no reason for them not to blame cerci for it no one in westsros would have any reason to blow up the sept other then cerci sense it had all her enemies in one place.
Thank you for this video as I've listened to all of Danny's chapters an was shocked how much they left out or completely changed they made her look arrogant an crazy in the show , i luv all Danny's chapters an I've watched stream with re readings of some of Cersies chapters an OMG shes an absolute Tyrant things she did as a child an all you spoke of in this video as un the book's Jaime has already abandoned Cersie
Instead of having Rhaegal stupidly killed out of the blue the way they did. They should have kept him alive for the King's Landing fight and kill him there to actually trigger a more believable unhinged response from Daenerys than would make more sense. To take it even a step further, you can even kill Drogon who was the most important of her dragons, and then she can ride Rhaegal and burn the damn city down. But even then, she should be aiming for soldiers and scorpions but throwing caution to the wind and killing thousands in the crossfire, but never actually purposefully killing the innocent. It would have kept in line with her personality but would have created a massive rift between her allies after they see her do that. They had so many chances to give us something better but were lazy af and wrote the dumbest shit ever.
I always said it would have made more sense to have rhaegal shot by one of the scorpion arrows after the kingdom had surrendered, even that would have been an idea to explain why she went and burned the place down , I dunno but what I do know is , I can't bring myself to watch it again, I've seen it once and it disgusted me 😂
What, you've never seen someone stew in their anger, only to lash out even worse subsequently? Dany chose evil. Burning those people was a conscious choice, not a spur of the moment reaction. You only think it's the 'dumbest sh*t ever' because few shows were ever brave enough to show a beloved character go down this path.
@@SerbAtheist Are you tired of riding for poor writing yet? Dany could have had a mad queen arc. It could have been made sense. But they didn't supply the material, framing, or scripting for it. Instead, they dropped an interesting character and shoehorned in another in a way that broke multiple arcs. The writers literally said "oh she snapped" at the bells for...zero reason.
Make Cersei give the order to kill the dragons after the bells are rung and the dragons stopped moving. It is perfect because it ties to Teyrion giving terrible advice, Cersei being simply evil and not respecting the rules of combat, and a reason for the Scorpions to be useful in Kongs Landing.
Great video. People (quite rightly) go on about there being next to no build up to the Daenerys Mad Queen arc, but this right here is the clearest example of poor storytelling by the writers/showrunners. The fact that there are absolutely NO consequences to Cersei's actions makes no sense whatsoever.
'The fact that there are absolutely NO consequences to Cersei's actions makes no sense whatsoever.' She's literally taken out all her rivals to the throne. Who is gonna challenge her? Meanwhile, the plebs are simply glad that the time of power struggles is over.
@@SerbAtheist consequences sir. The death of thousands of plebs would have been unknowing and unprepared for. Tywin would have checked himself before he’d done something like this, if only to have covered himself. Are you saying that the small folk would just sit back and let a terrorist attack up one themselves that is clearly signalled to happen?
@@trainsurfer7593 You're assuming that the story is about petty politicking. But it's not. It's about the wider struggle for power. The end of S6 signals the arrival of a foreign invader. Whatever the hell anyone is planning against the current ruler is usually put on hold when a foreign invasion is involved and I've got personal experience to attest to this. Trust me, when you're being bombed, it could be the devil himself at the helm of your country and you'd support him. Just look at GWB's popularity post 9/11.
@@SerbAtheist " who's going to challenge her " oh idk all the other lords that exist ??? , imagine thinking a heavily religious society would be totally fine with the queen blowing up a church killing hundreds of there own in the process.
@@thatoneblackdude3333 Imagine thinking Westeros is a heavily religious society. The Targ dynasty and their uneasy relationship with the Faith of the Seven due to their whole incest thing (Baelor the Blessed notwithstanding) have made the Faith a hollow shell of its former self.
I would love to know George could finish the supposed last two books, but by the state of the story I doubt that two books are enough, even two massive books. George is an amazing writer, but unfortunately he is doing other things and his attention doesn’t seems to be in the main story. I’m glad that he was able to write some amazing works and that he is happy doing it, but AsoiaF unfortunately will not have its deserved conclusion. I’m trying to not resent GRRM for his flaws, but this doesn’t change the fact that he will not finish the books…
Millions of GOT fans started viewing the show as a traditional Hollywood film - where the good guy fights the bad guy and good wins with the power of friendship. The problem is that GOT was never supposed to be about classic good vs evil stories. Its about broken and selfish characters making human decisions with problems occurring from their choices. Everyone being shocked that Daenyris attacks innocents in a war... While not realizing thats exactly what happens in every single war since the dawn of humanity. Also millions fans angry, saying Jon deserved the Night King kill against white walkers... They completely misunderstood the point of GOT and started viewing it as a classic Hollywood action show with good vs evil... Was season 8 rushed? Yes. Was the storyline and plotpoints bad? No. It wasn't.
Daenerys, in the books and show, is a selfish and entitled brat. She knows nothing but acts like she knows everything. She doesn’t heed council from more learned advisors.
When considering the word Brienne spoke while in the noose I think an interesting one would be "Oathbreaker" (because of Catelyn's oath to Brienne): "...and I pledge to ask no service of you that might bring you into dishonor....". Ironically, it's also one of the things that Jaime has been called. I haven't quite worked out why that would cause Lady Stoneheart to release her. Lol. I just think it could be a compelling arc for this situation she finds herself in.
If anybody is worthy to be called the Mad Queen is Cersi look at the atrocities she has committed you can't kill the Queen's best friend in front of and not expect her to retaliate or burn alive the high sparrow and the rest of those innocents including Queen Magarey whom her son Tomon loved dearly . Dany was wrong to burn a whole city but she was pushed by Cersi who in my opinion is the mad queen
The GoT show has aged like piss.. And it just proved that the stag-meister Bobby B was right and should have staied on the throne. Better a stable realm with an uninterested king than the whole thing going down in dragonflame.. Thanks Dany.. Also they totally fucked it up when they (the writers) say that "Roberts rebelion was builded on a lie". Thats simply bullshit, Neds father and brother wasnt burned alive by Aerys II because Lyanna didnt love Robert back. Besides there was already a Arryn-Stark-Tully-Baratheon alliance in the making before the whole thing kicked off. And not to mention that Prince Rheagar was likely planing to overthrow his father "There will be changes when I come back" he told a young Jamie before he left for the Trident if Im not misremembering. Robert seems more like depressed and tired of it all. Its like if you are really good at one thing but you dont get to do it, you will likely lose focus and feeling of pourpose. An argument for this is the Greyjoy rebellion a few years after Robert become king. Its said that he immidiatly woke up and kicked into high-gear, war was his thing, what he was good at, when he feels the most at peace with himself mentally. "Killing things clears my head" he says before going hunting. I think its the simplicity and clearity he needs, the problem with creating a power-vaccum is that it needs to be filled.. He has no interest in ruling, hence he left it to Jon Arryn. Also, he married Cersei on Jon Arryns recommendation, she was "supposed" to marry Rheagar. Also Im still waiting for the next Blackfyre rebellion they set-up in season 1 but didnt include any of the characters in it, like young Griff and Jon Connington..
HOTD has an advantage over GOT where the story is really focused down to a single plot line that all the characters push forward. GOT can be overwhelming for new ppl to understand what is going on because there are so many plot lines happening all at once. And sometimes they split and sometimes the combine and it can be hard to keep track of everything
I can see the books going this way, but in the show it came out of left field. In general though, Daenerys’s goal of ruling the seven kingdoms was always going to necessitate a lot of violence against characters and factions that we’ve liked. That alone would’ve made her a bit unlikable towards the end. Not a mad queen though.
The mad queen arc wasn't always unreasonable, but as it stood in season 7, we at least needed another full season to arrive there. Like instead of her reaching that at the end of a very short season 8, it would be more possible if it was at the end of a normal season 9, yanno? I think D&D just did not have the foresight of planning these things out. Reminds me of when you are writing something on a poster to run out of space for the last letters and they becoming squashed and small lol
I think the execution of Mossador could have served as the right moment. He did *not* know any better, Daenerys had just crucified a lot of masters in a summary execution, without having the personal guilt of them investigated, and he did *exactly* the same thing, and was executed for this.
Nah. Robert was to be married to Lyanna by duty AND by the love he had for Eddard. Robert was gonna have both the cake and eat it. Duty and Love. Nothing delusional to married the person you were betrothed to. You make a similar statement, "Girls of noble birth just married whomever their father bethrothe them to" Lyanna was the Sansa(as she was on the first season) of her generation, as she went for "love", rather than duty, sparking that whole war, the death of her brother and father. Just cuz she fell in love with a married man. Roberts whole identity got destroyed once Lyanna got abducted and died He ain't delusional, he is in grief and in pain.
