Sansa Stark Is Tragically Misunderstood 

Yeah, it's a bit hard to feel sympathy for someone who makes no active attempt to escape, or send word out to her brother. I know in old stories, you have the knight who saves the princess, while she waits in her tower to be saved. The thing is, those stories usually just focus on the hero. Nobody wants to read chapters of a girl patiently waiting to be rescued, while she tries to keep from being tormented more than she has to. Unless I'm forgetting something, Sansa doesn't plot against Cersei or Joffrey. she doesn't try to weaken the Lannisters from within, or get word out to Robb about their plans. Nor does she even try to embrace the Lannisters in the hopes that she'll be tormented less. She doesn't try to play the Game. She just exists.

@@chadnorris8257she doesn’t plot against them because she was only 12 years old and completely alone. Everyone in her party has either been killed or is gone. She becomes hardened against the Lannisters, but she’s still young and naive. What was she supposed to do?

@@livcaitbff Idk. Arya was younger than her, I believe, and she would have tried something.

@@chadnorris8257 Arya would have gotten herself killed if held captive in King's Landing. She only escaped the city because of Yoren. Never mind the staggering amount of help and aid she receives throughout the many books. And besides, Sansa does act against the Lannisters by buddying up the to the Tyrells.

@@MarieCurtis92 I imagine they'd have to keep the knives away from Arya any time she sat next to Joffrey at the dinner table.

Absolutely. She's an inexperienced little girl in a harsh world, not unlike our own in some ways

Also, imagine growing up in the north, having THE Ned Stark as a father and no other reference for nobility and honor than him...

I mean she’s literally 11 at the start of the series and no older than 15 by the last book. Ofc she’s naive, she was a sheltered child brought to a dangerous place and thrown into a situation she wasn’t ready for in any way.

Very naive , but also a bit stupid ( tbh , all early teens are kinda stupid) .

Except it was not her idea. The king and her father ordered her to marry Joffrey. Sansa making the best of that situation and trying to make Joffrey love her is just doing her job. There is no destiny here. Sansa would be a great queen, as Tyrion points out. Joffrey was the problem there. She did not fail through any lack or fault of her own, but because her family got very unlucky and people who should not have been able to succeed got lucky with their treachery. Robb was not cosplaying at anything. He had the responsibility for his family's survival dumped on his head at far too young an age and responded to the challenge in spectacular fashion, doing far better than anyone had any right to expect of him. He was destroyed by bad luck, by treachery that he had no way of reasonably anticipating and by the failure of several other parties to follow his orders or act in their own best interest. Robb never shows any sign of a hero complex or letting it get to his head. His marriage was over an issue of honor, after he was, in all probability, roofied during a moment of emotional vulnerability. He did the morally right thing and the Freys' response was not at all warranted or justifiable. Anyone who thinks Robb marrying a Frey would have saved his life is not thinking at all. Walder Frey is the lord of a double castle called The Crossing. He is Lord of a DOUBLE-CROSSING. GRRM basically slapped the label "traitor character" on him the moment he appeared. If you pay attention to the timing of the books, Roose Bolton has his plan ready to go as soon as word comes to Harrenhal about Robb's wedding. Tywin Lannister does not give rewards for things you do without a promise of rewards. He would not have rewarded the Boltons with the wardenship of the North and a Stark bride if Roose had sent Tallhart and Glover into the ambush all on his own, because then Roose is hooked as a traitor and if he doesn't follow through with the plan, Tywin can always disown him. So Roose Bolton had ALREADY AGREED to betray Robb when the news came of his marriage. He was married to a Frey long before Robb's marriage, too. He was also offered his choice of bride, and why would he get that choice, when Robb already had dibs? Why offend your king by giving your most desirable daughter to one of his vassals, or by swiping the most desirable bride for yourself? The answer is, the Freys & Boltons were already plotting against Robb. Their decision was based entirely on the success of the Lannisters, which they saw as an opportunity to gain more profit from their betrayal than they would get for fulfilling their obligations to Robb, so they made their own deal together and then made a deal with Tywin to send Robb's troops into an ambush and murder him. If Robb had refused to marry Jeyne Westerling, and upheld his bargain with the Freys, the only way the Red Wedding would have been different, would be that Robb would have been the groom, instead of a guest. It's also not clear that taking the Black is the best option Jon has, that is the preferred option a self-absorbed emo 15 year old sees. All Jon can see is what Robb gets that he can't have and is rather sour-grapesy about it. He is being dramatic when he thinks he has no option but to run away to the Wall, bastards, especially ones who are beloved of their powerful noble fathers, have many options in Westeros. What constrained Jon was Catelyn's (valid) concern about him being competition for her own kids, and his secret parentage. Because Ned has to hide that he is Rhaegar's son, he cannot take Jon to court with him, he can't put him in front of the visiting royals with Ned's bio-children, for fear someone might notice a resemblance. All Jon had to do if he did not want to take the Black was wait a bit and opportunities would have opened up for him. Most noble families in the North would have been happy to take Jon as a ward or a squire or give him a job, because it gives them a connection to their overlords, it gives them a close kinsman of the next generation of Starks who owes them a debt of gratitude. If he was a little older, Ned could have given him lands of his own. There just was not time to arrange any of this because of Robert's offers to Ned and the mounting evidence of a Lannister conspiracy that forced Ned to accept.

That's not necessarily a Sansa thing. A lot of old-timey dresses and gowns did not permit running. Long skirts trip you and so forth. That being said, Sarah Michelle Gellar started playing a combat-oriented action hero role at age 18. Seven or so years later, she was playing an ordinary woman in a horror movie and when she tried to run from the monster, the director had to coach her to run like a scared normal woman, instead of like a superhero. Hardcore running, that looks serious on screen, does not come naturally to people.

Society, as a whole, has such a disdain for teenage girls. A character who exemplifies femininity, naiveté, and girlhood innocence denied is like kryptonite to most people (even other teenage girls, hence the "I'm not like other girls" trope!) It's fascinating to me how much people hate Sansa because she's a little girl who is struggling with being tortured and terrorized throughout book one, then growing into a young woman playing by the rules of the game to survive for the rest.

What mistakes did she make in aGoT? The only real ones I can think of are going riding with Joffrey unsupervised and going to Cersei to ask her to let Sansa stay at court, and Sansa is the one who suffered most, in the long term from both incidents, and they were both very understandable mistakes to make for an ELEVEN YEAR OLD GIRL, who has not been given much information (because she's 11 and should not need that much information). There are a million people you can blame for the death of Sansa's wolf before her. Arya for playing with commoners. Ned for allowing it. Cersei for wanting the wolf dead. Robert for allowing it. All Sansa did was try to cope with a situation where she was asked to choose between loyalty to her birth family, and the demands of the family who were going to control the rest of her life, going forward. Sansa did not pick Joffrey, she was ordered to marry him, by her parents and the king. She was raised to believe that if she was good, people would take care of and protect her, and that the best kind of husband was one who was wealthy and powerful and could do things for her. With everything she knew, she had every reason to be thrilled about their betrothal, and making Joffrey like her was her JOB. That's the POINT of marrying her to Joffrey, to parlay his affection for her into benefits for her family. And she does her best to make him like her, which is the benefit of House Stark, and also, quite sensible, considering he will be in total control of her life until one of them dies. So temporized in front of the king and queen, because her options were to humiliate their eldest son & heir in public, or lie or hurt her family. So she said she did not remember. ELEVEN. WTF else was she supposed to do? A nd then, when it came time to leave court, she went to Cersei, which was actually rather sensible, because Cersei is the one who got her way in the wolf incident, despite the anger and disgust of the King and the Hand of the King. When you want to override your father's inexplicable wishes, going to the person who wins when she butts heads with dad makes sense. But she just did not know the stakes, and so she ended up being captured by the Lannisters. Aside from that, she had nothing to do with her father's downfall. Ned already told Cersei what he intended to do. Cersei had the same information about the timing of Robert's death and Littlefinger was going to sell out Ned no matter what. I cannot see how Sansa going to Cersei affected the events in the coup much at all.

@@Gunleaver The only thing I didn't like about Sansa was when she continued to "love" Joffrey, even when he could have seriously hurt or killed her sister. Sansa was given the chance to escape Joffrey when Ned said he was breaking her betrothal to him and sending her and Arya back to Winterfell, even offering to marry her to someone else-one who had a better character-but Sansa didn't accept it as she desperately wanted to live a fairytale life. Not that I blame her for wanting that. She, like most, was blinded by the glamour of royalty. And just like many other girls in both Westeros and the real world, she wanted to be a princess and live happily ever after with her husband and children. Also, Sansa reminds me of women who found themselves abusive situation. I agree with everything else you said, though. Sansa was an 11-year-old child (13 in the show) so I never expected her to act like an adult when she wasn't one and I can't believe that the fandom hates her more than grown ass men who knowingly did far worse things than she did.

@@AQ_456 Even with her insistence on marrying Joffrey over someone else her father intended to pick, there is the point that she, like every noble girl in Westeros, was raised to view status, power and position as desirable traits in a husband. Anyone else her father might find would not be a potential king. In any event, her affection did not last long, and she was the only one to suffer for it, since her going to Cersei like was what ensured she would be taken captive without a chance to escape OTOH, her chances of getting to safety if she had been out of pocket don't seem all that impressive either. Up until the moment Ned died, it seemed like a really good move on her part, since to her eyes, it was a major factor in Ned's life being spared. She certainly had no love or desire for Joffrey after he showed his true colors.

@@Gunleaver Oh, that's true, especially in regards to status and power being more important than a person's character. Even Ned, who most people consider to be good, wouldn't marry his daughter to a common man, even if he had the best qualities that a person could possess. Hell even if Jon Arryn still lived and never found out about Cersei's bastards, Ned will definitely use his daughters to further the power of House Stark via marriage alliances like most men of his rank did, including his father.

All fair except one area. The Trident incident she did deliberately lie. In Eddard’s chapter, he knew the truth from Sansa because he questioned her the very night it happened. Then a few days later she claimed differently to Robert that she couldn’t remember etc. but later Sansa recalls the incident when she begins romanticizing Joff again.

I'm pretty sure she 'recalls' the incident only after the Battle of the Blackwater, when she already knows that Joff is an asshole and therefore Arya's recounting of events is more likely to be true. Just because Sansa remembered what happened right after the incident doesn't mean she still remembered at the trial. If i'm wrong I'd be interested to know when she recalls it.

@@leahpanya57 the incident occurs from Sansa’s chapter/pov. She absolutely remembers. Her next chapter when she sees Joff for the feast she thinks to herself how she can’t hate him, and essentially blames Arya for everything. Martin likes to play with the reader, but we get the incident from Sansa’s pov, the next chapter Ned knows he questioned her and prepared her to speak with Robert about what happened. So before the questioning and after the questioning, she remembers. The real thing to wonder, is if she blames Arya, did she think she was lying to protect Arya, or does she know Joff was wrong and lied for him? I don’t think whether she actually remembered the incident has ever been emphasized because it’s assumed she did because we only get the incident from her perspective. We only know about it because we see it from her account.

​@@DCharles I don't think the incident being in Sansa's POV proves that she remembers. For example '' 'Send a dog to kill a dog!' [Joffrey] exlaimed.'' Is in Tyrion 1 in aGoT, but in Tyrion 8 aSoS Tyrion rememberes ''Send a dog to kill a wolf, [Joffrey] said''. There is bound to be other examples of people not remembering what happened in their POV, this is just one I remembered because of the 'who sent the cat's paw to kill Bran' theories. Her decision not to blame Joffrey could be because Cersei ordered Lady killed for Joffrey's injuries. And after thinking about it she concluded that it wasn't Joffrey who wanted Lady dead. If Sansa thinks Joffrey's version of events is true then it would make some sense to decide that Joffrey is an innocent victim and only hate Cersei and Arya for Lady's death, since Micah is already dead. I don't think there is much evidence for Ned preparing Sansa for trial. 'He had led searches himself for the first three days, and had scarcely slept an hour since Arya disappeared. This morning he had been so heartsick and weary he could scarcely stand,' Seems like he was busy with the search. She had told him what happened but that was days ago and likely right after she got back to camp. 'Ned had heard [Sansa's] version of the story the *night* Arya had vanished.'- Eddard 7 aGoT 'They *dined* on trout [...] ''Shouldn't we be starting back?'' She asked.' - Sansa 1 aGoT (According to Google's/Oxford's dictionary dine means to eat dinner and night can mean anywhere from afternoon to sunrise) Sansa likely rode back to camp to get help for Joffrey and told her dad what happened, but after she had a night's sleep and got sober she could no longer recall what happened. The only instance I can remember from the books where Sansa thinks/talks of what actually happened during the Micah incident is before the Battle of Blackwater when Joffrey makes her kiss his sword. ' ''My new blade, Hearteater.'' He'd owned a sword named Lion's Tooth once, Sansa remembered. Arya had taken it from him and thrown it in a river. I hope Stannis does the same with this one. ' (Sansa 5 aCoK) But Arya throwing the sword in the river is the only thing we know both Joffrey and Arya admitted to during the trial. I think most people think she remembers because Ned and Arya think she lied in their POV. But I think that is where G.R.R. Martin plays with the reader because nothing in Sansa's chapters or the books definitively proves that she remembers the incident and lied. That being said nothing in the books proves that she doesn't remember either. So I would say it is currently 50/50 if she remembers or not. The reasons I lean towards Sansa not remembering is because I think her actions in the aGoT book are wildly out of character for a normal person and I haven't seen her act crazy in later books. Except maybe 'the unkiss' which is also an incident she doesn't remember correctly after she gets drunk and scared. And the author has said 'the unkiss' will eventually mean something.

@@DCharles I guess 'the unkiss' would be another incident we see someone not remember what happened in their POV and from Sansa no less.

She survived because she was a leverage later claim to the North it has nothing to do with her non existing smartness. Give up ✊🏻☺️

When Sansa swears her fealty to Geoffrey, after he abused her, Tyrion remarks "You might survive us yet, Lady Stark." Tyrion said this with a combination of surprise and admiration, for he knew she hated Geoffrey.

@@sdzielinski yey! I loved it when I thought that they were going to prove that "courtesy is a lady's shield" had actually a point, and vindicate, or at least explain and rationalise, that way of survival and resistance that is so common in real world women when in bad situations...but nop

Why the hell you have to put Arya down to say Sansa is better?? Besides the books contradict your opinion i know Arya was wild in the beginning but later she learned self control how she handles suitation in the Harrenhal later with Roose Bolton. Bold of you to assume that she wouldn't survived in Sansa's suitation meanwhile guards were guarding her, had royals meals, i know Sansa was beaten, so was Arya even more than her. Imagine being in a place where you could be r*ped anytime, got beaten, saw people being tortured on a daily basis and killed too, starved only option left is to eat worms. So yeah i think she would've survived Sansa's suitation easily. Margery married Ranley who wanted to be the king instead of Joeffery but Margery handles the suitation very nicely even manipulated Joeffery what else do i have to say ??🤷🏻‍♀️

Thank you for checking it out

I think he was an excellent father with some glaring flaws, there is a difference. Look at how strong and empathetic all of his kids are, even after going through terrible things with all the odds stacked against them. That is a testament to his parenting. Ned's biggest flaw as a father was trying to preserve their childhoods for as long as possible. He wanted to shelter his kids to have an idealized upbringing. His gut instinct is to protect children, no matter their last name. He, like the audience, sees children as children. The biggest issue with that is apparent: the rest of their world see's them ready for very adult things. It isn't fair, but it is reality. He needed to prepare them better, yes. But he was an excellent father who maybe should have refused Robert's request with more gusto.

@jessjess23brooks89 Arya is a vengeful murderous child, and Bran is currently struggling with the idea of consent when it comes to Hodor and Meera. I don't think anyone in ASOIAF is the stereo type you're talking about... and protecting his kids goes out the window when we think of Sansa's engagement and his willful ignorance towards giving Jon any guiding advice besides "we'll talk next time" it's avoiding the same way he literally thought in his POV chapters how he's going to avoid Sansa... you might call is persevering innocence, and while I can see that view, I see a man riddled with PTSD and copes by disassociating, and yes, he is fond of kids or just hates anything bad happening to them we can see that plainly

That's a good point.

I’m glad you watched and appreciate your perspective as well. Thank you

Yes, it's misogyny. There's a lot of misogyny from women in this series, which isn't too surprising given their relative lack of power, but it's rarely acknowledged as such.

@@JC-gn7lq sometimes people don't wanna call it what it is, because it will expose their own moral gaps. It is misogyny whether they're real or not, but it's easier to deny misogyny exists rather than accept that their own disdain of a character reflects their own and real life sexism. I think misogyny is a heavy word that people don't want to use, because it's such a large societal issue, and it is real and it really is heavy to even know about let alone experience. This is why I love ASOIF so much, despite it being a fantasy series I have managed to learn about and unlearn about my own personal moral failings or parts of my beliefs that I believe could be improved. I think it really takes a great book series to get people discussing such topics and encourage self-examinations.

I don’t know what you’re referencing that I misunderstand here specifically. Your recollection of Sansa in season 5 is inaccurate in a few areas. Did you mean Winterfell? Sansa doesn’t go to the dreadfort. Her & Theon both know the castle. But my focus is on the 11yr old version of Sansa establishing the story’s baseline for femininity, and how that evolves during the first book.

@@DCharles I did misremember, thank you for pointing that out. I suppose I would say that Sansa is naive in a very specific way. It's not that she doesn't know evil exists: all the Starks are much more aware of evil's presence in the world than the people in King's Landing are. It's that Sansa believes evil only comes from north of the Wall. But I think she believes that because allowing the possibility for Westerosi society to include it's own form of evil makes it necessary to imagine the evil from beyond the Wall could win. It means the Seven either don't care or don't exist (the books heavily suggest the latter: we see evidence of the Red God and the Old Gods, but the Seven are curiously absent). Sansa's dream is to be Queen and fight Winter. I don't think that ambition died when her father was killed. Rather, what died was her faith. She was the only Stark who believed in the Seven, the others only payed lip service to these gods: regarding them as foreign and of little use. The propriety Sansa believes in so strongly is inextricably connected to the Faith of the Seven. She believes so strongly in this propriety and the Faith because she believes it will defend Westeros against Winter. When the King not only has her father beheaded but also doesn't wield the sword himself, she understands that her faith was misplaced and the horror which she refused to contemplate is actually a possibility. But I think that she is still determined to be Queen and fight Winter. She just knows now that she needs different tactics. She won't become Queen by marrying a King, and she won't fight Winter by championing the Seven.

Isn't Sansa dreaming of being queen a show only thing? I never noticed that in the books.

Arya displays a lot of internalized misogyny

To be fair to the fandom, for every misogynistic take, there are four more positive rebuttals from more enlightened men. This is one of the least toxic fandoms I've ever been a part of and it is why I've stuck around. And it's a testament to the author himself. Sansa chapters have literally made my own brother realize some unhappy truths about women in history. Now I'm speaking strictly from the book fandom. The show fandom is actual toxic sludge.

Absolutely! While she's not my favourite character, I much prefer her to Arya. Yes her chapters before Ned is killed are hard to read through mostly because it's so painfully clear how much she lives in daydreams and believes in the ideals of stories, confusing them for reality. I also think people have a hard time with those chapters because we've all been like that at some point; innocent children. You maybe didn't want to be a princess, maybe you wanted to be an astronaut, but you had a fantasy and you believed in a kinder world when you were a kid, at what point and at what age that world shattered differs wildly, but we all hold that pain, and reading Sansa's chapters is a harsh reminder of what we've lost. Also she has a lot fo self doubt which probably triggers people too, and maybe there's a jealousy too as she is beautiful and unlike most people, she is the oldest daughter of a lord, was promised to a prince, meaning her fantasy was actually _reality_ for her. For a short while, but still, she wasn't delusional to think her fairytale would come true. No matter how "silly" we think her fantasy was, we get to see her almost reach her dreams only to watch those dreams turn out to be a nightmare. Identifying with her means you need to go through that pain. Most people also don't understand how much gall it takes to persevere in a hostile environment without turning to violence yourself, something that Arya gives into gladly the minute things go south for her. Considering how damn quickly Sansa does adjust to her situation, she's incredibly smart, her greatest weakness is her lack of self-confidence which is something that has been drilled into her (a lady needing to wait for resque). Wether she turns into a manipulative monster because of her trauma or a benevolent and fair ruler precisely because of all she's been through, is gonna be great if we ever get to read that. I'd like to see her be the character that shows what feminine empowerment actually means instead of her becoming cynical and misanthropic like Arya, but either is plausible.

Exactly, people hate Sansa even though realistically most of us would act like her if we were living in this world.

Such a dumb ass and lazy comment. To blame it on misogyny when characters like Cersei, Lady Olenna, Lady Margaery, Brienne, Arya, Catlin Stark, Misandre, Lady Mormont, Princess Shireen, the sand snakes and even early Dany actually shined in and around their innocence and or vulnerability Sansas character was trash because she was slow to grow, naive asf and dumb as hell. Saying she was manipulated when her younger sister wasn't dumb enough to go for it is a wild concept. The life she idolizes isn't even remotely close to her upbringing, her mother wasn't a "high-born princess" and neither were any of her aunts, they came from humble lands and houses. The North bred rugged women. In her particular case she sided with everything the viewing audience would perceive as "bad" it doesn't help that the most juvenile characters seemed to be the most annoying. Jon's ENTIRE arc pre-beyond the wall, was boring AF I used to dread seeing him on screen because his tale was so dry and he seemed so young. Dany pre-dragons was annoying asf because she felt super pampered, naive and young asf. Thank God Rickon didnt get much screen time because I dont think he did a single memorable thing but die. Brand was only interesting because there was an active hit out on his life, and he was chasing the 3 eyed raven very early. ^I say all of this to say it's a mature tale that absolutely shines in character development. It's the one single great thing they hit on, and her character without a doubt was the slowest to develop and that's what warrants all the hate for her. PS: While I LOVED 95% of the female characters in GoT, all the women empowerment RUINED the show. 5 queens in Westeros without near King in sight is WILD. Cersei, Olenna, Dany, Sansa, Ellaria disgusting!! The one TRUE king running around behind a foreign ruler swearing of his lineage because she makes his heart beat fast? Let us NOT forget hes supposed to be "The Prince That's Promised" you know the guy that honed a sword for 80 days on 2 failed attempts to temper, ONLY to come to the realization that he had to drive his sword through his wife's heart in order to temper the sword that would save humanity. Yea Jon never saw such a heroic moment in such a grim and gruesome tale. But let's blame Sansa hate on misogyny.... good grief.

@@dontatme__ character development is supposed to be slow, rarely people make a full 180 after one traumatic experience, and if they do that’s a trauma response (like with Arya) that propels a character to a different path and they grow into something else. Arya was wild, but she wasn’t bloodthirsty before her trauma. Also to note her trauma response if to fight (flee at first) and Sansa’s is to freeze and fawn. Character development can’t change the baseline of how you react. You can learn to cope in a different way and hide the initial reaction, but it’s still there. Most people hate Sansa for the same reason they hate women who stay in abusive relationships. Which is funny since Sansa constantly does think of escaping but she’s not dumb, she knows it wouldn’t end well. If characters are actually what you care about, I don’t understand how you place emphasis on the lack of actions as the problem? Character development often happens quietly in the background, and then maybe a burst of emotional climax in an argument reveals it. From your comment I think you like to think you love characterdevelopment, but you’re actually more intrested in plot, you know, things happening, the opposite of ”boring”. Then again, you seem to be only talking about the show, so it’s understandable if you haven’t read the books you miss all the internal dialogue and character motivations. Same goes to your gripes about ”women empowerment” (the term is female empowerment) which well, the show is very misogynist and doesn’t really understand women. ”A strong female character” does not equal a feminist character, and the show especially ruins Sansa through making Littlefinger dumb, and what the show does to Dorne and the sandsnakes is unforgivable. If you want better writing, read the books. The show looka good, but after season4 lacks character, depth and logic.

@@dontatme__ you can go on an angry and incorrect rant longer than your dick all you want but that doesn’t make you right. I doubt you have the intellectual ability to read a book but you should try reading ASOIF before opening your pathetic woman hating trap. You’ve clearly missed the entire point of Sansa’s character because you’re so blinded by your own stupid ignorance. Maybe one day you’ll develop past the emotional maturity of a 12 year old boy but till then you’re hopeless and a waste of time to try and speak to like an adult.

Sansa/Alayne chapters are my favorite to read in the entire series. They’ll have to throw stones at me too!

I think you’d really enjoy her chapters then if you give the main series a read.

I assume you’re only referencing the show, but how did Jon refuse her help?

@@DCharles She counseled Jon to build a larger Army. Jon refused her advice, believing it to be unrealistic under the circumstances, and went on with his plan. The main point of that scene was Jon didn't consult her or ask her advice. Sansa responded by contacting Littlefinger. My interpretation was based on the show. I should have said Jon refused her advice and counsel instead of help. Advice and counsel are kind of help. But calling it help was imprecise.

@@sdzielinski that may very well be what the show is trying to communicate, but Sansa insists that they take back Winterfell, and Jon is reluctant, but he agrees. They try to get more northmen, but only get a couple houses to join. When he asks her what he should do she say she doesn’t know other than not to do what Ramsay wants them to do. When he states that’s obvious, she says he should have waited until they had more men, but he says they tried and they have as many men as possible. She says she won’t go back to Ramsay alive if Jon’s army loses. All the while she withholds the information about the Vale army. Her council was redundant at best in my opinion, and withholding the Vale army information cost their army countless lives needlessly. I just think this part of the story is grossly mishandled if they’re trying to communicate Sansa’s brilliance or Jon’s defiance.

@@DCharles That's how the show depicted it. Jon and Sansa had one last exchange. After arguing, Jon made up his mind to f I ght with the army he had and Sansa sent a raven to Littlefinger to get him the army he needed. She should have told Jon about her action, but didn't. Her motive for keeping Littlefinger's armed intervention a secret were not made clear. It's easy to attribute it to the spite women can feel when they believe a man or men do not take them seriously. Re: Cersi. Her withholding of that information did result in unneeded deaths. It is not a mark on the plus side of her ledger. Young Sansa could be spiteful and mean and older Sansa envied Dany with her dragons and armies. "Why her?", she asked. I'm listening to the books now -- to save my eyes. I find the differences between and the show interesting. And I appreciate access to the inner dialogues the POV characters have with themselves. These make Young Sansa more sympathetic than the show, Arya more childish, Bran more childish, Lady Catelyn more reckless, Theon more ridiculous, Ned too befuddled by his honor to survive the snake pit he lived in.

See I think Sansa ultimately will be a “girlboss” of sorts, but there’s a subtlety that she has in AFFC and TWOW samples, that the show abandoned along with her book plot. I wish more people gave her Alayne chapters more attention. They’re some of my favorite.

​@DCharles it was the Alyane PoV chapters that sort of changed my opinion of Sansa. I'm not a huge Sansa fan, mainly because of the incident that led to Ladys death, then ratting Ned out. I agree with OP on Catlyn grooming Sansa to be just like her, right down to distain she feels for Jon. I saw her as an insufferable, spoit brat. I'm on ADWD now and I still see her as annoying but she's learning.

​@@S.D._777_you saw this 11 year old child as a insufferable brat?

No she did not! Ned got himself killed, they only say it about 1000 times during the show lol

I'd say Joffrey did it. As far as Sansa, Ned, Cersei and everyone else was concerned, they were all on the same page that Ned would be spared and he'd go to the Wall. It says something about Ned's honour, that Cersei trusted him to go to the Wall and stay quiet about what he knew. His word was good enough for her. It was Joffrey's random mood swing that killed him. And I don't even think Joffrey himself knew he wanted to kill Ned beforehand. The idea just came to him in the moment and he acted on it, impulsively, recklessly, without considering consequences. He just did it because he felt like it, in the moment, he thought it would be cool or funny. Cersei herself didn't want Ned to die. If you watch the scene, she's protesting against the decision.

In the first book I think this is true of all of the POV characters with the exception of Tyrion.

@@DCharles The first book had the Jon Arryn murder mystery to carry it. Even in the later books, Sansa is still playing second fiddle to all the secondary characters of her chapters.

Instead of what?

She’s 11-15 how smart and worldly were you at that age? Your misogyny is showing

@@triciacarey2288 so stating the obvious is misogyny? Lol I'll bet your fun at parties

@@triciacarey2288 or do we need to lie and praise everything she does because she has a uterus? Not allowed to criticize a female without being a misogynistic? I'm a woman and I happen to agree... though I'd add annoying to the descriptors. Guess my misogyny is showing too

@@ljb8157 it’s misogynistic to expect an 11-15 year old CHILD to make the same kind of smart decisions you’re expecting of her. It’s sexist to say she hasn’t grown and changed since book 1 despite all the obvious evidence that she has. It’s misogyny to blame her for the actions of Joffery, Cersi, Little Finger and her father. It’s really not hard to understand if you’re not a raging piece of shit who hates women

Wasn't this the same Ned who couldn't keep his mouth shut about the incest babies the moment he found out which eventually led to his death?

@@river6666.Yes, not to mention, I think she made the right call on Jon’s secret. She did the strategically smart thing to do to protect the North from Daenerys’ rule. Any one who gets mad at her for “not being able to keep a secret” is only mad at her because her actions didn’t benefit Dany. Sansa’s actions make sense for what Sansa wants, she doesn’t want Dany to have the North, she is a threat, so she will do anything to protect the North. And if the reason people are mad is because she betrayed Jon because she promised she wouldn’t tell, well Jon betrayed her and the North too. At least with her betrayal, it makes them even.

How does she miss treat them? More times then not Arya is mocking or even attacking Sansa and Jon refuses to listen to Sansa. I see them more cruel towards Sansa due to Sansa having a different personality and interests then her other siblings. Arya had a stronger bond to her father and brothers because she had more masculine traits and interests. Ned provides Ayra with training in water dancing while getting Sansa a doll, something she has not played with in years. This shows the Ned didn't really know Sansa unlike the rest of his kids and didn't have time for her growing up. Sansa was left with her mother and septa to lean on. That isn't even mentioning that the North viewed Sansa as a southern more then one of their own. She was an outsider in her own home and because of this she ended up dreaming of a fantasy life where she would fit in and have a family of her own.