RFM is truly a gem. I could listen to his musings all day. He adds such insightful meaning into the commentary of his life, not just a recounting of events. He also has such a great sense of humor. Great guy.
RFM - Darrell Bogar was my uncle, second father, bishop, and scoutmaster. Great to hear he was still wise in his latter years. He served in the navy in WW2 not Korea. Thank you for honoring his memory.
Wow, RFM, what you wrote about John is incredible, so well articulated, such an honest tribute! It’s also quite a serious and accurate picture of what’s happening in the church.
I remember when I was eight years old in Sunday school the teacher asked a question and I was always answering her questions but I remember pausing before putting my hand up to answer and thinking to myself, “I know what she wants for the answer, but what is the real answer.”
Yes. Often times I would give my true answer and would be shamed by the teacher for it. Everyone acted like I was so wicked for answering honestly. By the time I was an adult I had had enough negative responses to my answers to be adequately brainwashed to give the sundayschool answers.
This is Beautiful! It would be hard to imagine any 2 of the Q15 being capable of engaging in such an open yet deep and meaningful fashion! Thank You RFM nd John. From a Fellow Soul in Scotland! 🏴
Related to the subjects discussed in this podcast, Galileo Galilei said, "I do not feel obliged to believe that the same God who has endowed us with sense, reason, and intellect has intended us to forgo their use." It took the Roman Catholic church an unacceptably long time to appreciate the words and works of this great man.
Saw this episode on my feed, stopped and found Part 1 to watch first. Heard Bart Ehrman’s name (who I wholehearted respect), stopped and found Mormon Stories episode 904 and watched that, now five hours later finally back to where I started - and I’m a never Mormon!
I both laughed, & got a bit weepy during the telling of this Mormon story. I also re-watched most of part one, as I, too, had forgotten what was discussed & where it left off. Thanks RFM, for sharing your complete story. I like having all the bits together. Thanks also to Jen & John & everyone at MS.
Thank you for this episode - you are both doing such a fantastic work and have had such a hugely positive impact on my family’s post-Mormon journey. Please please don’t ever doubt the importance of your work- you are appreciated and loved and valued.
I also thought that it was so strange after being taught how to “bear your testimony”. We were taught to get up and say we know “the Church” is true and that Joseph Smith was a prophet of God. Well, I always wanted to be a good girl so I got up at that fast and testimony meeting and basically bore the teacher’s testimony and sat down and thought to myself how strange it was that people were happy that I had told a lie because I didn’t know that it was true and I didn’t know Joseph Smith was a prophet. But you get so much positive reinforcement in the Mormon church for “believing”.
I remember being taught that there’s 5 points of a testimony. (God is the father, Christ is the savior, Joseph Smith is a prophet, Lds church is true church, and current prophet is true) You’re not allowed to do “thank you-monies” and you’re supposed to use “I know” statements. That’s what makes a “good” testimony. Imagine if a member went up and talked about their current doubts and struggles with the church or contrary beliefs. The congregation would have a heart attack. Reiterating things the church has taught you as though it’s your own personal belief and having a formula you have to follow seems a lot like brainwashing in my opinion. Because humans are social creatures and we want to belong to a community so hearing others testimonies (friends, family members, people we want to feel connected with) will influence us.
@@opalskycanvas wow! those 5 points you lay out are what I would now call the layers of influence you are under as a Mormon. That’s fun I think I remember being taught the same thing.
This definitely fed the soul! Thank you for sharing your insight RFM. You are, along with John and many other brave post members, a beacon for those of us who find ourselves floundering.
I had a Sunday school teacher who threw an eraser at me for asking too many questions. When I was older I was kicked out of seminary. I eventually left and have never regretted my decision. 💜
Thank you all and Robert Rittner and getting all of those hours on the record! I bought his book. It was nice that he laughed with us as we laughed at ourselves, those of us that remember puzzling over those pictures in the book. Yes, he will be remembered.
Please PLEASE turn that blog post RFM read about John D into a short. I want to listen to that OVER and OVER. And share it everywhere. It is amazing. Revelatory. Thanks for this interveiw! So much good stuff. I love RFM's explanation that the LDS church and its teachings never really were intellectually stimulating and why.
I loved going back and watching this after binging mormonism live. I love rfm. But i just want to give Jen so much credit. She is so smart, and so well spoken. You can really feel the "spirit" when she speaks. I absolutely am so fortunate to have found the x mormon podcast groups. I am never mormon but was evangelical. I am so grateful for these wonderful stories. Everyone from yall to Shelise at Cults To Consciousness. Sending love to all yall!
Never Mormon, former Christian, but my god! The hidden books of scripture are there in the library in your town! That thought made my hair stand on end! I've been a reader all my life. Books, from pulp sci fi to Shakespear, have beem a constant source of inspiration and introspection my entire life. All through my life I was told variations on the theme of, "Books will fill your head with ideas," as if it was a bad thing. Looking back, I understand that for the people who said that to me, new ideas were uncomfortable, disruptive, dangerous. Those are things I'm good with.
John, I’m sad and sorry to hear you lost donors over the Rod Meldrum series. Having him on was very important. Two saying come to mind that reflect why I think it was so important to having him on. Sunlight is the best disinfectant and give somebody rope and let them hang themselves. You didn’t even have to deconstruct or be combative, you just had to simply let Rod talk and explain himself and the audience is smart enough to see why his positions don’t make sense, especially with his selective application of logic. And he is a very good representation of mainstream orthodox Mormonism so why wouldn’t you have him on? You’re doing great work. Keep it up. You are making great difference.
Whenever it was mentioned that we kept learning the same things over and over and it was boring, the blame was thrown back on the members. We kept getting the basics because we hadn't mastered them yet, and we would keep getting the basics until we finally got them right. The reality is, the church leaders wanted to keep everyone so focused on the basics so we didn't look back at all the kooky things they used to teach!
Less than two months ago I was a full fledged believer.. lifetime mormon .. Never ever questioned my faith or the church but there was this nagging feeling about polygamy that caused me to look into church history about this.. This has opened a can of worms that I cannot put the lid back on.. At first it was like a cold bucket of water has been thrown into my face and the things I began to see as one thing led to the next and the next.. then the anger towards the church for hiding these truths about its history came next.. now I’m in this place where I’m in the church not not into the church.. How can I now knowing what I know go back and see things the way I used to see them.. I cannot! But my husband is all in and yet my kids left the church years ago and all of these years I prayed that they would see the light.. and now here I am at 67 yrs old seeing things that i can’t unsee.. i don’t know yet what my future holds but i do know that I will continue to seek truth whatever that leads me.. No man gets to tell me how to think and feel and believe.. deception at its best is how I now view the church! 😊
(TL;DR I Love Moby Dick too, and thanks for teaching me to be a better person by speaking kindly about Rod Meldrum. ) RFM - I've listened to you talk about Moby Dick three or four times now, and I just have to comment. When I was 17 or so, I tried reading Moby Dick for the first time. It may come as no surprise to you that I got through about five chapters. I tried a few more times over the next few years, but I couldn't get through it until the year before I left the church. I'm not sure what happened, but somewhere before or during my experience reading the book I had a sudden realization, which was that most of the other books that I'd read before I'd read with the purpose of bringing my understanding of it into line with what other people think. I realized that what I think and feel is important and valuable simply because those feelings and experiences were mine. The last time I read Moby Dick, I started to see that I was reading it FOR ME, and it didn't matter if I couldn't defend or explain my reactions or experiences, or if I thought differently than everyone else that ever read it. I also realized that I would rather experience things and decide for myself what they mean and how to feel about them than be told what they mean and how to feel. Anyway, this realization came just a few months before my shelf broke (and no doubt contributed to my ability to consider the possibility that there might be more to the world than what I'd been told there was). I adore finding little things in common with those who share their stories. Thank you so much for sharing, I've learned so much from you. Also (sorry to lengthen this still more), but thank you also for your thoughts on the Rod Meldrum interview. I appreciated the reminder that it's worth listening to all perspectives and treating all people with respect regardless of differences in beliefs. It sounds that the kindness you were shown by post-mormons on message boards was important to your story, and you try to pay that forward by showing that same kindness, compassion and desire to understand to others. I just want you to know that your genuine compassion shows. I definitely appreciate a lot of things about you (the ridiculous amount of time and effort you put into preparation, your research skills, your background in law and your Shakespeare quotes among them), but it's these moments when I feel like I'm learning from you how to be a better human that are my absolute favorites.
I want to see Hamlet now. This was a lovely discussion. Thank you for the opportunity to listen and taking the time to create. I'm an atheist, raised with no religion. But some of these conversations you have, John, help me get closer to an idea of God than I ever have been. I appreciate Jenn's contributions to this show as well. You bring out so much good in others.
See Hamlet for sure! And if possible, read it a couple of times, too. It's amazing! Of course, "You have not experienced Shakespeare until you have read him in the original Klingon." - Chancellor Gorkon
It's fascinating that an atheist raised with no religion would find Mormon Stories...and then spend time here. People who claim to believe in God also struggle with how to define "God". The word "God" itself is a stumbling block, but I find "Source" as a good word instead. Everything has a source, including the universe. It isn't logical to believe that the universe just popped into being with no cause, no source.
@@azlizzie I'm sort of the same, but I did live in Utah for two years, so that's my excuse. I always reflect on how would I have turned out if I'd been born into a Mormon family instead of a family which wasn't interested in religion...at all.
Wild, I was thinking yesterday, gee I wish I knew the backgrounds of you both. I wish I had known about you all years ago. I can't begin to say thank you for the release of so much difficulties of my mormon past. Your both are spiritual giants. Praying for you both and all others that are saving us through your words and efforts. Because of you all I am capable of more fully to continue my role as the head of my home, be a better parent, provider, worker, friend and member of our humanity. God bless you all. Love always. ❤️ 😊
This interview part 1-2 with RFM has to be one of favorites. I love both you guys, and you too Bill Reel. I have to say John I wasn't sure how things would go with Carah gone, I like her. But John you seem so much more relaxed and there isn't any contention or competition. I think you and Carah just both have really strong personalities. Not a bad thing, just didn't seem to work with the type of job you are doing. The new girl seems like a real nice and friendly person. Good luck to everyone and will continue to watch and support !!! :)
I thought RFM's Easter podcast episode was GENIUS!!! He changes my perspective massively all the time! Love all his stories, love getting to know him slowly, and one sidedly lol. ❤️❤️❤️
RFM and John. I'm not a Mormon and never was. I'm a Catholic and a bad one at that. Thank you so very much for sharing. I can't help but think of what Jesus said; "Seek and you shall find. Knock, and it shall be opened unto you". I don't know why the Mormon faith is so intruiging to me, but it is. Thank you.
I appreciated the frank discussion about how dull and broken the sunday school curriculum was/is. The repetitive lessons, the leading questions. As an active mormon, I disliked them, and everyone I knew disliked them. Having a teacher who did additional research and taught outside of the manual was a god send. Unfortunately, those teachers often did not last long.
This is because the purpose of Mormon Sunday school is to indoctrinate and infantilize you. If Sunday school actually taught you the detailed history of Mormonism, no one would want to continue to be a Mormon.
You are genuine and have no guile that’s what put you on top.
2 года назад
How funny that I am watching this on Sunday morning - this truly is food for my soul. Also, today I am going to the used book store and buying a copy of Moby Dick! Maybe they’ll have a children’s version for my son as well.
At 2hr 50 min. RFM you are so wonderful for sharing this. So well written and thought out! This is amazing insight! Ever learning and never able to come to the truth. Thank you both for helping us find the truth and freeing our selves from this damaging cult, we can finally begin our real personal growth and spiritual journey in this life.
I find English speaking Mormons obsession with the King James version of the Bible to be a little silly. However, I was guilty of it too when I was a TBM. I was born in the U.S. and only spoke English until I went on my mission to Argentina. I remember feeling a little disturbed when I was told that I would be using the Reina-Valera version of the Bible as a Spanish speaking missionary in Argentina. I don't know (and, now, I don't care) if there are any significant differences between these two versions of the Bible.
Many years ago, in GD class, the story was, the good guys were fighting the bad guys and the good guys were losing. The captain of the good guys decided to retreat and build a fort, in order to protect themselves...I put my hand up and asked what kind of fort it could have been. The teacher said it would have been a regular type of fort. So my next question was, how long would it take to find the wood, hammers & nails in order to build a fort? The teacher could see where i was going with this, and tried to distract me. So, I continued. The bad guys were going to WAIT, whilst the good guys built a fort...then attack the fort? Trivial, I know, but these are the questions that are never answered.
RFM's blog post (about JD, but even moreso about the church's overall dishonor), should be made easily accessible to be read/heard in full, as well as having short clips for tiktok. It was a masterpiece, IMO.
Enjoying RFM tremendously! Not certain if it's just my eyes or not, but the streaming color seems more grainy to me. Maybe my eyes are just shot? No matter, loving this episode.
Hi, Refreshing to observe former TBM and defender of the faith using rational thought, humor and compassion when accessing religion in general and people of the worlds differing mystical experiences! Finally someone's attempting to viewing the bias box from the outside as opposed to fearing to seek beyond its warm fuzzy inside! I suspect this might be easier for a convert who sought something greater in life than for someone born into the Mormon religion and believed that he/she was born into the only true church and as a birthright for being a valient servant to God and Jesus in the spirit world! The challenge already behind them, and all they must do is pay, follow, may go on a mission and warm a church bench a few hours weekly!
Tough to awaken the troubled seeker in oneself! Tough to acknowledge one has been lied to and ones sacrifices have been without merit and will thus be unrewarded. Easier to keep one head in the sand and ones shoulder to the wheel and chant "move along!". Better to be going nowhere fast, than question ones reality! Or is it?
@ 1:44:35 "That wasn't a totally fruitless tangent" LMAO!! OMG that's hilarious!!! I LOVE this guy!! Really profound statement beforehand though. It starts @ 1:43:43 in case you want to watch it from the beginning.
Could you choose who is better between Simon & Garfunkel, Queen, and Whitney Houston? They're all incredible--in completely different styles. That's how I view Mormon Stories, RFM, etc. It's like being asked to choose a favorite child or being told you can only love one person. Our hearts are big enough to hold all of you. There's no need for competition. But I do believe it's very human to be insecure. One reason I'm always so impressed by your approach John, of "a rising tide lifts all boats". 💜
RFM's comments were pregnant with meaning for me. His awareness of his own evolution of capacity to understand deeper meanings....maturing, is rare, though we all go through this. What a mind blowing understanding that all people of all religions have deep spiritual experiences. Maybe this has something to do with our most profound questions? At the time of Joseph Smith, one of the most common questions in the hearts of Americans was which church is the true church? Joseph Smith wasn't the only Christian leader to claim to have established the "true church", but if you were living at that time, realizing that you had found that true church must have been a great spiritual experience. This question is not common today, but we all have our own questions which, if we suddenly find the answer for, will stir our spiritual juices. So our spiritual questions determine our spiritual experiences. RFM's puzzlement about where inspiration comes from is profound. Scientists, mathematicians and artists all have the experience of ideas and understandings just popping into their awareness, sometimes in dreams. It's almost like there is another level of reality which we occasionally touch and interact with. From our perspective it borders on the divine, but maybe it is similar to RFM's experience of only being able to understand a work of literature after maturing enough to have the capacity to grasp deeper meanings. Maybe the human race as a whole is also going through a maturing process. Maybe the teachings of the various religions of the world represent spiritual truths tailored to the conditions at the time of their origins, to the maturity level of the people, to the questions they were pondering. Maybe religion can be seen as a school with teachers presenting lessons to children who are at different grade levels. They all represent truth, but the truth presented in high school will be over the heads of the truth presented in 2nd grade. RFM mentions the dilemma of whether scripture is literal or mythic, or allegorical. I think we wrongly assume that scripture was intended to be read literally. It's more likely that its intended meaning is allegorical and metaphorical. Jesus taught in parables. Parables make you ponder, to grow spiritually. Parables can also lead to different understandings, depending upon our maturity and life experiences. Church leaders feel threatened by diverse understandings, so they tend towards the literal with its one meaning. I really like RFM's parable of the banquet table. Jesus has got into his head!
1:47:13 totally relate. We already have whatever knowledge/wisdom is thought to be had in yet to be revealed scripture. Through each person on earth who cares enough to bring something forth. This is a divine process.
RFM, trust me when I say, you kicked The Midnight Mormons Asses ! Period! It was three against one, and you made them all look like fools. They did nothing but hurt what they were trying to save ! Kwaku and Cardon are an absolute Joke! Thank You for all you do!
It never bothered me that the Bible was quoted in the Book of Mormon. It bothered me that the "Inspired Version" of the Bible did not appear in the Book of Mormon.
Times have changed. I've been teaching Sunday School for the past six years and regularly read bible verses from a variety of translations in class (typically NRSV, occasionally NIV). For part of my class prep I use Logos Bible software for verse comparisons and original language which is regularly shared in class. The lessons in today's manual are seldom more than three or four paragraphs (which I rarely even read) and certainly allow broad freedom for teaching lessons. I've discussed Bart Ehrman's work and recommend his books. I've also shared Michael Heiser's work as well. Teaching about JS and how he used his hat to translate is something I teach about each year we do the BoM. The idea that no one knows the history of the church is a relic of the past. Today, it's common knowledge among active Saints.
1:48:44 I recommend Vanessa Zultan’s “Praying with Jane Eyre” and the podcast she co-hosts, “Harry Potter and the Sacred Text” to anyone who resonates with what RFM is saying here
Mr Radio Mormon is a genius weather he see it himself or not. As his insight of real litterture and they are the true anserwe what questions about life, death, moral and so called truth Im a litterture-professor and anybody who can read thoughts behind words are truthteller All my best from Sweden to you
OOF! Rfm said something like, “Mormonism became insufficient to me” and that hit me in the gut. Nevermo personally but I have lost a different faith. The idea that Mormonism puts forward to people who leave is that they’re not enough for Mormonism. Mormonism is not enough for them, insufficient, as you say.
For a future topic, what happened when LDS missionaries encountered a black family prior to 1978? Are their stories of punishment for missionaries who gave the lessons to black individuals and families?
Not at all. Black people were baptized into the church regularly. They could pay tithing, after all. They "just" couldn't go to the temple to receive the promise of eternal life. But the church had no problem exploiting them for everything else--money, manpower, etc.
In the midst of the conversation regarding "What is the Spirit" or what is that "elevated emotion" that virtually all humans experience and which religions have named "The Spirit" or "Holy Ghost" that is testifying that their brand of religion is true, I wish to offer some perspective. As John referred to Mormonism doing such a good job at teaching (indoctrinating) its members from the cradle that no other church has the "real" Spirit, and that disaffected Mormons tend to deconstruct those feelings not wishing to be duped again -- I suppose that I fall within that range of people. However, I think the conversation moved too quickly away from the notion that this seemingly ubiquitous experience of this warmth, this awe, this elevated experience felt by most humans is a core part of being a human and therefore not necessarily of any supernatural origin. When Dawkins, Hitchens, and other prominent atheists, or Neil DeGrasse Tyson speak of this phenomenon, they readily acknowledge the attending senses of wonder, of awe, and of deepened feelings of love that even those of an anti-theist persuasion recognize. We simply do not have the language to fully engage in a discussion on the origin of these feelings, but can join in humanity of this shared experience which tends to lead people toward charitable treatment of one another. Therefore, in the discussions in this episode, the participants continue to call it "personal spiritual experience" which may be the best way to address it for now, since we lack understanding of "consciousness" and I would add these feelings that we call "the spirit." That they have been appropriated by all religions is demonstrable. That they are proof of any of them is more than doubtful. Anyway, I would hope that these other kinds of "spiritual experiences", those truly felt by those that have left deism and theism would not be discounted as still being genuine and a magnificent aspect of the human experience. (How many have "felt the spirit" in a place that Mormonism would say that it was the devil giving those feelings? I felt it in several hard rock concerts. Hmm. God loves to Rock and Roll -- that must be true because the Spirit testified of it.) Thanks for all the good work you do. I listen regularly to both RFM and MS and enjoy the deeper digging that each provides. For me, Truth is the most important thing for we weee humans to discover, and to adhere to as few falsehoods as possible. What a wondrous universe we experience for the time that we do spend here. Thank you for bringing interesting perspectives to light through your work and episodes.
As a never Mormon , the church ( all of them) expect blind faith, as an early teen I was labeled a heretic, because I said to my Sunday school teacher that "God is a Woman because man could not birth the world and all of creation".
I feel like what RFM said about the note on the flyleaf to his mom was beautiful. My dad passed in an accident last November and I’ve got a list of books he wanted me to read since I was in high school. I recently finished Dune and am making it through the whole series. I’m gonna have to write, “Thanks dad, I finally got through it” 🥹 Thanks for this… the most touching part of this interview for me. Absolutely not a stupid thing to write.
My grandson performed at an athletic meet in Pocatello recently. He noticed the Book of Mormon in a public space. I told him that is the Bible of the Latter Day Saints (a bit of discussion about the words “latter” and “former”). He then asked why were they called “Mormon”. Can you tell me…
Mormon is the name of an "ancient prophet" who was supposedly a sort of original compiler of the Book of Mormon (it's many different books, like the Bible). So, the book is named after him and it just became the common nickname. As an aside, Mormons also use the Bible, so it isn't the Mormon Bible (that would be the actual Bible, they use the KJV), the BoM is seen as a companion, like the Old and New Testaments are companions. It's called "Another Testament" to make it a companion to the other two. I love that you're having informative conversations with your grandson--sign of a great relationship! 💜
@@jaronhall If someone compared me to Christopher Hitchens or RFM, I would consider it to be a compliment. I believe RFM would consider a comparison to Christopher Hitchens to be a compliment as well. I am sure we could easily find plenty of people who would deny that Hitch was talented. We live in a world where many people refuse to acknowledge many aspects of reality for various reasons.
@@function0077 idk if I could take anybody seriously if they didn’t think hitch was talented. You can think he’s wrong about a lot of things (god, war in Iraq, etc.) but you can’t deny his talent
I had to read Moby Dick in college. It was a good read compared to other classics in that american lit class. Try The prairie from Hawthorne. I had no clue what was happening in that book.
