DonLee Wilson Beating players with Link against top tier characters is no easy feat. you need to quickly maxamize damage nomatter how weak the attack. Frame traps with projectiles and controlling distance and against fast characters like Falcon. Speaking of that T vs Fatality was one of the most baddass matches I've ever seen!
linkuzumaki0071 HELL NAH! Izaw was waisting his time doing fancy bomb combos. I've been a Link main from the begining and very little of what Izaw taught is practical. T is in a class of his own. He is one of the only Link's to effectively utilize ALL of Link's tools and options. The only other Link that's even close is Sova Unknown imo.
linkuzumaki0071, I'd say this: Izaw makes *entertaining* videos that look smart as he "analyzes" the roster; but he has no results and has shown that he has bad character and can be a pretty shitty person to others. Izaw's Link is nothing compared to T.
I'VE BEEN SAYING IT FOR YEARS! LINK. IS. GOOD! No one believed me! They said I was crazy! They'd say, "Why don't you just play Toon Link?" I've mained this character since before the first patch, I've been an fan of T's for a year or two, and now I'm SO HAPPY that T is finally getting the success he deserves and that Link is fonally getting some recognition!
John Hurley I don't know how I feel about all this hype with people saying Link is a high tier monster. I feel like Civil War was just a good catalyst in a point in the Meta for a Link main to shine. Remember in 2015 when most people had a Sheik and Rosalina? Back in that meta, Link had very little room to shine. But in Civil War, with so many great players coming out using their favorite characters like Samus and Little Mac. There's no getting around things like Link's low speed and ending lag on some attacks, *but* with a great player like T that has studied and developed his character to the teeth, that were we get a Top 3 Link amongst one of the most stacked tournaments in Smash
Dark Knight Did I say Link was a high tier monster? All I'm saying is that I've been grinding out this character since the begining and after all the patches, he is much better than anyone gives him credit for. He definitely still has issues, but he has a ton of tools to help him deal with matchups most people thought were unwinable. T is also a very under apreciated player. He did an amazing job playing to Link's strenths and fully utilizing all of Link's options. In a world full of for glory Links and over complicated and impractical bomb combos, T is setting the standard for what high level Link play should look like.
+John Hurley How can anybody argue against that statement after what we just witness?! Link, a character who was considered to be low tier, took out Mewtwo, character who's obviously high tier, in a grand major tournament! Not to mention that this Link was against the best Mewtwo player in this match.
JohnKnight416 Mewtwo is not the greatest example. Mewtwo is the second lightest character in thr game, where as Link is very heavy and deals a considerable amounr of knock back from most of his attacks. Meaning Link can kill Mewtwo far earlier than Mewtwo can him. There are more nuances to thr matchup than just that, but I would say that's the main advantage Link has over Mewtwo. Link has a suprising host of atributes that let him even the odds in a lot of matchups. Also, my point is, prior to this tournement, nobody would give Link thr time of day. No one except nuts like myself and other Link mains. A lot of people are attracted to Link at first because he is great at punishing poor defensive play, making him great for stomping for glory players. But few ever stick with him long enough to see the hidden potential Link has.
+JohnKnight416 Not saying Link is bad or anything, but keep in mind: a) being a low tier doesn't mean you automatically have bad MUs against high/top tiers. b) People don't really have alot of experience against Link, because there are barely any. I'm super happy about Link placing this well, and T is an amazing player, but it's really hard to say how much of a factor MU-inexperience is.
Collin Huggins I would argue that in Link's case, he should probably be higher up than he is. He has a lot of hidden tech that make especially good Link players terrifying. Not saying he's anywhere near the top, but bottom 10 or 15 seems a bit unfair. Mikael Fernandes It hasn't been three years, yet, and even then, three years is still new in terms of competitive fighting meta, especially when the most recent patch is less than a year old. There will be low tier warriors making upsets like this and causing us to rethink a lot of things about the meta. And at the end of the day, tiers tend to be rather subjective, based on how much emphasis you put on player skill (meaning that characters getting punished hard has less of an effect, if you don't expect the player to get punished), how much you understand about the character (Game & Watch tends to be thrown into tier lists haphazardly, from what I've seen, as very few people know enough about him to make a reasonable decision), how much OTHER players understand the character (because a character like Olimar is uncommon and weird enough that the unlikelihood of coming across an average player that knows the matchup gives him some serious points), and a large assortment of other things. Sure, we can agree on a few values that are almost always good. Having more options is never bad for a character to have, which is why Sheik is so high on the list despite the relatively limited killing power. Mobility is good. Kill power is good. Combos and follow ups are good. The question is how much to you rely on each of these factors to set your tier lists?
Ganon can and DOES kick ass, in the hands of someone that excels at reading and predicting patterns. He is a character that can do a LOT of damage with very few reads and can kill absurdly early. This means that once you get tilted, it's probably going to cost you the game. Don't get me wrong, he's clearly not as strong a character as Cloud or Sheik, who seem to always have options in almost every single situation. He struggles to get in on characters with a heavy zoning game, and in high level play, most players are practiced enough to avoid the majority of the mistakes that Ganon loves to capitalize on, but at the end of the day, you still can't sleep on a Ganon, so yes, the game IS, in fact, more balanced than we thought. Just a suggestion, Ganon isn't even a bottom 5 character. If you are gonna try making this argument again, at least use Jigglypuff. I still feel Jiggs isn't as outclassed as Kirby was in Melee, but you'll still have a much easier time trying to claim the game isn't very balanced by using the worst character in the game. #buffthepuff
It's absolutely amazing to see Link make it into the Top 8's, not to mention the Top 3's! T definitely knows what it means to bring out the legendary Hero of Time himself.
Zero hasn't even mention Link yet in his 2017 Tier List videos. I first thought that he was going to include Link in the Mid Tiers video since he didn't mentioned in the Low Tiers video. But since he didn't, I'm starting to get a feeling that he may actually include Link in his 2017 High Tier List video! Which would be crazy if that actually comes true!
He was going to, he had to reupload his original Mid Tier video because he accidently included the wrong end slate, which listed Link at the very bottom of high tier. He might change it though, because the video was before civil war.
T inspired me to make Link my secondary. Ironically with the spike at 8:20 the D-air would've resulted in an SD had it not hit Abadango. The bounce from the hit put T back on stage. Super risky but that's top-level play.
I'm not amazing at Smash 4, but I'm a decent online player with Mewtwo (main). I always feel I struggle against Link mains who are equally skilled as me when online. Is it a tough matchup for Mewtwo generally, or no?
Why is Link's Fast Fall Speed so freaking fast? Like, most characters fast fall speed line up with the fall speed: Fox has the fastest fall speed, and the fastest fast fall speed. Link? 24th fall speed, but 3rd fast fall speed. Why?
I used to main Link until I realized how hard he is to use in competitive tournaments. I felt like a clunky old man trying to chase around a bunch of youngsters.
+H20 Aquarius True, but I was just showing that this match , rather tournament, isnt a fluke... the wins show that Link does have the potential and tools to deal with the high tiers previously thought the bane of his existance.
+H20 Aquarius IzAw has won a tournament, granted it is wasnt a major, with Link. He also has several other top 8 winnings. All im saying is any Link who goes to tournament and wins a game against a notable top player demonstrates his character's potential. T, IzAw, Cat, Sill, and the other notable Links show his potential, in and out of tournaments.
I would argue very few characters are actually bad, in this game. Many with limited or questionable use and a few that are overshadowed by characters that do a similar thing, but better. Still, very few characters are actually legitimately just bad.
"I would argue VERY FEW characters..." Puff is one. You can make this argument for Miis, too, as long as customs are still banned and even then only Brawler gets all that much better. The argument also could be appied to Zelda and Ganondorf, but you're gonna have trouble making that argument after that. Even with Zelda and Dorf, they have some extremely clear upsides, and even Jiggs can get results in the regional scene.
Agreed, I feel like every character in this game is good when it comes to certain MU's. For example, Puff can actually do decent against character like Falcon and Sheik. Just look at how Fatality was struggling against a good Puff at one tournament, it was like game 3, last stock. And Puff v Sheik can actually be scary for Sheik because she can die super early to Puff and can't be using needles all that much. Puff actually has good aerials to contest with Sheik being her Nair, Fair, and sometimes Bair. Her Nair is super strong and comes out very fast making it useful as a combo breaker if Sheik is to late on a fallow up and is a decent kill move. Fair has a long lasting hit box like Nair but is better as an approach option since it sticks out. And even thou its slow, Bair can kill Sheik super early if she's not careful. Another thing is that, since Puff is floaty, Sheik can't get heavy combos on her, and can live long to get rage since Sheik has trouble killing.and can go for rest reads unlkess your at kill %. And Ganon himself can do decent against all the heavies, and he can pretty much strike fear into any lightweight.
As a Link main, no. Link does not have a good match up with Mewtwo. Link has a LOT of trouble returning to stage in this MU. It's not necessarily all bad, though, since Link can get some really scary early kills off of a good read. Similarly, most Links consider Lucario to be an even match up. I don't have any data on that one.
I'd assume it's because Link seems to have a fairly good chance to take Lucario's stocks before they get to very high percent which minimizes how much of the match Lucario gets to play with rage, xP & by good match up I kinda meant not bad as opposed to positive.
I would figure if Link had trouble killing Lucario at all, that would make it a rough matchup, since Lucario can get incredibly hard to punish or really do much of anything to. But yeah, I'd probably argue that in that sense, Link has very few truly bad matchups. Certainly plenty that are a little tougher, but few that really make life all that difficult.
Am I the only one who's always considered Link a better character than Toon Link? Both are good, but Link's frame data and zoning are just straight-up better.
Not a mewtwo main, but mewtwo gets some pretty cool movement tech off of double jump cancel shadow ball (i.e. instand ledge get up to shield with double jump cancel from ledge -> shadow ball -> shield)
Icarus he uses shadow ball differently trying for Jab locks and things... fully charged shadow ball can actually hinder performance in some areas for mewtwo and combos do much more damage than the full shadow Ball plus bait
I wish they'd stop talking about tiers and start appreciating T showing that this character, like many others, can be used regardless of the most popular picks.
