#asoiaf #gameofthrones #windsofwinter Patreon 😸 patreon.com/us... Buy Me A Coffee ☕ www.buymeacoff... Damn, part 4 already...? Well who knows how much got left out...
I imagine the statue thing is that historically, poor folks were models for a lot of art works -- just look at all the paintings that were modeled off of prostitutes. I can easily imagine a young, hot, poor bravo being hired to model for a sculptor. Then, when he has a lot of money, he buys that sculpture of himself because why wouldn't he?
I was gonna post a disclaimer but yeah I think theres a different voice for him per episode 🤣 I forgot how I was doing it and I just was too lazy to check lol
I just KNOW Mad Mouse is working for Varys. He has been going in windows to rumage through Baelish's papers and stuff. That's why his window was open and his papers on the floor when Sansa entered his rooms while looking for him. He's called Mad Mouse, he's a small man. This is from the Sansa sample chapter.
With the Harkonnen thing of making one ruler a monster, so that your preferred ruler-candidate looks like an angel, I'm a big believer that Illyrio and Varys are going to implement this A LOT in the opening chunk of TWoW.... The Sparrows are completely uncontrollable, and Aegon cannot sit comfortable on his throne while they're as powerful as they are. History shows that there's one fool-proof way to get rid of Sparrows: have Maegor the Cruel massacre as many of them as possible, then be Jaehaerys the Conciliator and graciously pardon the few remaining sparrows. I think Illyrio and Varys will turn Tommen's government into a Maegor-esque regime. Between these two quotes: Illyrio called after them. "Tell the boy I am sorry that I will not be with him for his wedding. I will rejoin you in Westeros. That I swear, by my sweet Serra's hands." (Tyrion III ADwD) "The magisters of Pentos have been known to lend money as well," said Ser Kevan. "Try them." (Epilogue ADwD) I think there's an excellent chance that Illyrio will show up one day in King's Landing, and offer to bankroll Cersei's return to power. Replace most of the guards in the Red Keep with his own people; buy the gold cloaks; kill as many sparrows as possible in the name of Tommen and Cersei... Then when the time comes, its super easy to do a coup, take the entire court hostage and Aegon can win the Red Keep without shedding any blood. The entire city will cheer the return of their rightful king.. perhaps throw a parade... mayhaps with a mummer's dragon... but idk, that's what I would do if I were GRRM, at least.
Damn i thought of Aegon as winning the sparrows over 😳 but what if they side with cersei cuz she wins a big trail of 7 or some such and he has to fight them! That conflict would be crazy
@@randominternetguyoffical I don't really see the High Septon siding with anyone except the Faith. He seems highly principled, but also very strategic; we never see him leave the sept, and he doesn't let weapons into the sept, which means if the government wants a one-on-one chat with the High Septon, they have to come to him and make themselves vulnerable. I don't think the sparrows would work with Cersei, and she certainly would never form an alliance with them after what they've put her through. They might like Aegon... but then again, he's supporter by a lot of icky Essosiunbelievers, and his religious education was probably a bit too liberal for the sparrows' liking. Thematically, I think we've gotta have fundamental opposition between populous movements like the sparrows and the brotherhood, and monarchy? Aegon cultivating great PR but cynically crushing stuff that would actually benefit the peasantry is probably the way to go?
As a Dune afficianado who just read several Ilyrio chapters last night - Harkonnen comparison is very interesting because there are 4 (5?) big elements to the invasion of Arrakis - 1) mind bogglingly expensive overwhelming force (50 years of the entire profit of spice production) 2) soldiers in the wrong livery so the public sees a unified army 3) psyops to create internal division 4) a betrayer to "open the gates" (kind of like pycelle was for aerys) the fifth is using weapons which haven't been used in living memory (dragons? has ilyrio been funding weapons research which will give a technology edge?) you are 100% correct that the misdirection of the original plan (having visyrs terrorize the realm and then have aegon as the savior) is exactly the Baron's long term game (also sets Jon up well as the "people's hero" who no one considers in their plans until it's too late because he's been off the map hanging with the peripherals - but is also unknowingly related to the harks/targs, and atreides/stark morality is very similar) but the idea that Ilyrio has been generating unimaginable levels of wealth his whole life and is willing to put it all in the service of blackfrye restoration seems well supported by the text - simultaneously developed the largest trade network, best corporate espionage apparatus to help trade, set up a respectable public face to the whole operation, and also set up a famous city-state/nation level spy crafting org the final thing i will wrap up with - I noticed that at Khal Drogos manse, there were Summer Island lords and the brother of the archon of tyrosh. I'm wondering if the "mind boggling overwhelming force" might involve a collection of naval powers and other armies to have blackfryre reign over westeros and essos
Really interesting comment, I think The Order Of The Green Hand theory on Khal Drogo fits with what your're saying, also I wonder if the planned naval force has been substituted with Aurane Waters enormously overpowered and paid by the Crown fleet??? His loyalties are very shady but the plan might be have him help the war then legitimize him and make him the Velaryon master of ships to Aegon like the they have been to the Targaryens during hundreds of years.
Can't get enough of Varys and Illyrio theories. With your Illyrio voice, I was expecting him to say "Tyrion, you did this? On my daughter's wedding day?"
I have definitely kept the voice a moving target throughout the series 🤣 Glad you're enjoying the dive! I need to get on reading dune and do a more detailed video, ive already learned new things in the comments.
One note I would like to make about Illyrio that's not talked about alot; He's a Cheese Monger From the minimum I know of the cheese industry, a part of it is waiting for cheese to mature. To be a cheese monger is to be someone who's smart and daring enough to go for long term investments I think that is why Varys ultimately made his best plan buddy Illyrio, because he knew that he would have the patience to wait for it to come all together, and have the knowhow on how to change things up potentially if circumstances began to become less clear. (Yes, I'm basically saying "Varys chose someone who is reliable, because he is reliable", but atleast i go to mention the cheese monger part i guess!)
What a cheesy theory! Actually I like it a lot, it makes sense. But also he and Varys made their money not just by stealing secrets but selling them -telling the wealthy what they wanted to hear. Trade in luxury goods seems like the next step up, like the mobster who gets a legit business to launder the money.
You make a great point. People usually dont trust those who traffic in secrets. Cause they know you'll sell them out for the right price. Illyriio is an interesting character. He could just be lying his tail off. He and Varys are loaded and have been plotting for decades. I wouldnt put it pass them for being the reason why the Mad King went completely mad. Griff and Young Griff have blue hair...... maybe you're not too off with your conclusions....Another great video. Thank you.
Its crazy to think at the levels of wealth in the story. The Starks are rich. The Tyrells and Lannisters are probably an order of magnitude more wealthy. Yet their wealth is probably dwarfed by that of Illyrio. And if the size of his manse is anything to go by, Xaro is even wealthier: "Xaro Xhoan Daxos had offered Dany the hospitality of his home while she was in the city. She had expected something grand. She had not expected a palace larger than many a market town. It makes Magister Illyrio's manse in Pentos look like a swineherd's hovel, she thought." (Daenerys II ACoK) And though our sources on YiTi are probably unreliable, its supposed to be even wealthier. ...why is it again that everyone wants that stupid ugly pointy chair in King's Landing?
I think you’re understating the Lannister wealth a little. Theres passages that say even in the East the legendary gold of Casterly Rock is known and Tywin was able to lend to the Crown in amounts similar to the Iron Bank and it doesn’t seem to really affect him that much. I just think there’s a difference in the wealth that the city merchants already live within walled cities and don’t have to maintain their own armies and kingdoms like the westerosi lords do. The merchants’ wealth is theirs personally instead of tied to their position so they have less obligations with where they have to spend their money.
1) I heard an interessting thought/theory from a video (Can't rlly remember which one) that says that Gerold 'Darkstar' Dayne will claim Dawn and join YG as his Kingsguard in an Arthur Dayne sort of comparison (Darkstar being the fake Sword of the Morning and Aegon being Faegon aka Blackfyre Aegon) I think that is certainly an interessting thought and might be worth exploring a bit. 2) Do you think Illyrio will use his alliances in Pentos to support Young Griffs Invasion? Personally I think that he is going to go all in on this one due to the love he bears for Saera (and the possibility that YG is his son) Seeing as the Tattered Prince is keen to claim Pentos as his own in ADWD I think that a conflict in Pentos will be at least mentioned or outright stated in TWOW and it will be a keypoint for Young Griffs Invasion 3) On the point you mentioned earlier with the Mad King and Varys as a sidenote it's an interessting thought to think that Varys may have just been an opportunist like Littlefinger who was trying to get his rise in the royal court rather than working for factions he worked to enrich himself and illyrio.
I kinda wonder what the old d-star will be up to so thats an interesting thought 🤔 I do think Illyrio is putting all chips behind young G and i think its gonna blow up big time for him.. Have you seen Kevin Pendragons series on varys?? Theres an amazing parallel to a real world Chinese court servant who was a eunich, if you haven't seen it check it out
If YG is the son of Illyrio and Serra, where did he get his purple eyes? Serra has deep blue eyes, Illyrios eyes are not mentioned, but he is from Braavos not Lys. As well as this it was Tyrion who was the POV for Serras eye colour and we clearly see that he does not get blue and purple eyes confused, he could tell YG's eyes were purple despite the blue hair.
@@Lumistrocity“A maiden? I know the way of that.” Illyrio thrust his right hand up his left sleeve and drew out a silver locket. Inside was a painted likeness of a woman with big blue eyes and pale golden hair streaked by silver.
@@Lumistrocity I'm believing the man who loved his wife enough to preserve her stone hands would make sure the expertly commissioned painting in the locket he keeps with him at all times did look exactly like his dead wife.
Yeah, I find it hard to believe that Illyrio would fake the eye color in the locket painting... its presumably a somewhat private possession and not something he's showing to everyone all the time. Its also a weird thing to fake in the painting, as purple eyes are neither uncommon nor suspicious in Essos the way they are in Westeros. Are there examples of purple-eyed kids with two non-purple-eyed parents? Good Queen Alysanne had blue eyes, and most of her kids were probably purple-eyed... though her husband Jaehaerys presumably had purple eyes. There's also a few Targaryens (Egg and Rhaegar) whose eyes kinda sometimes look blue, but are actually purple... perhaps Serra was like that?
OK-so I get the feeling that Illirio giving Dany the dragons eggs was almost as...a kid of insult. At that time, those eggs were as valuable as Dany herself. Which is, not very in reality. The eggs were stone and Dany was a Princess of Nothing.
I think it coulda been a covert signal to onlookers at the wedding (unpublished drafts of affc show that the blackfyres had 3 stone eggs) that they serve house blackfyre... But I do agree that they were more or less trinkets in everyones eyes, which like, they might even actually be worth a lot, but illyrio is so rich its irrelevent.
I liiiiive for the RU-vid notification when these videos drop. The Dune comparison is 10/10, finally watched the film this year after reading the books years ago and I had honestly forgotten how mentally intensive the whole series was! Ps. If you want some Dune summaries, highly recommend altshift x videos (I think there’s two, one comparing the movie + book, and one explains the rest of the books)
I watched the asx and some of the quinn videos to prepare for this one! Really glad you've enjoyed the videos, hearing people get excited makes it extra worth making them!
This was really interesting. I think theres a lot that can be gleaned from Illyrio thematically as well as the lifestyle he lives. Its all hyper decadent indulgence and facade papering over all the overwhelming rot and decay, which plays into the point of comparison you were drawing with the Dune stuff
House Harkonnen according to the Dune prequels share the same maleline as the Imperial House of Corrino which is another parallel to the Blackfyres. Also, I think the reason Varys came to Illyrio for protection is because they have a family connection. Notice, this started long before Illyrio married Varys' sister. Bittersteel in addition to being Daemon Blackfyre's half-brother was also his son-in-law, meaning that any descendants of Bittersteel will carry the blood of Daemon Blackfyre. This could also explain why the non-Valyrian looking Illyrio and Valyrian looking Serra could produce the Valyrian looking Aegon. Bittersteel already had Valyrian blood from his father and Calla Blackfyre only added to the mix. The Bittersteels down the line could have intermarried with non-Valyrian looking people and lost the traits. Yes, I know Bittersteel didn't look Valyrian but his wife did. Now the question is why doesn't Illyrio have the Bittersteel surname. There could be three reasons. One, Illyrio likes to hide his origin so maybe he really does. Two, Aegor Bittersteel might not have made Bittersteel the name of the House he founded, though that's unlikely. Three, Illyrio could be a female-line descendant of Bittersteel. It's interesting to note that like Bittersteel, Illyrio acts as the one really in charge of the Blackfyre cause and controls the Golden Company. This means that Illyrio himself is also a female line Blackfyre.
Ive seen the idea Illyrio is a bittersteel decendant and i think its pretty fun, idk if theres any way to tell but it would go towards explaining why he initially supported varys. Thanks for bringing up the additional dune parallel also!
@@randominternetguyofficalDaenerys was inspired by Paul Atreides which becomes a problem for Vladimir Harkonnen and the Emperor. I think something similar will happen to Varys and Ilyrio.
@@randominternetguyoffical dude you have to make a video about how the plans of Varys and Ilyrio don't go the way they want and probably about the second dance of the dragons. I know the book isn't out yet but I'd like to hear your theories about the future of all the people involved in the Blackfyre plan.
Interesting that Dune didn't quite grip you personally. For me after ASOIAF. Dune was the only thing I found that scratched the same narrative itch that ASOIAF did for me. Have you read anything that for you is similar to George's style of writing? I love the endless speculation and dissection of plot and a world that no matter how sci fi or fantastical still keeps to a more realistic standard of what a human can do physically. (Ignoring the mind powers of both series)
I really need to just grind out dune, whats weird is it did grab me but i still just couldn't get past that part lol Ive watched the quinnsideas and altshiftx videos on bits of it and the lore of the universe is fuckin wild
yeah this seems like a good explaination for illyrio. 👍👍 My biggest contention with what illyrio is telling has always been, how he made such a big profit with secrets. With pentos beeing a city based on trade i would always say that there is more money to be made with directly stealing goods or money from merchants than ransoming them with some affairs or stuff like that. He/They probably made up this Backgroundstory to feed the varys the spymaster character. It also gives the shortest most simple answer of him just beeing a buisness man jumping from opportunity to the next. Not giving the suspected backstory with his wife. Your Point about him supposedly gaining respect for a not that hidden scam also plays into my weirdness about their profitiering from secrets. I would love to see whats your take on the secret profits is. Is it just different than how he explains it or did they something else instead. (Q&A/ if more to it than it might even make it to another video. I mean it not only involves him, but whats varys true Backstory is, too) On most of the points im completly agreeing with you. I'm seeing the Illyrios deflections too. Same with dialogue for hints about the Blackfyre connection. Im not agreeing on the gdp part, or to be more precise not on your scale of it. I know that gdp is based on income, but because most of the evidence for illyrio is based on wealth i would like to focus on that as argumentation. Illiyrio beeing a trader makes most of his wealth in coins, ships and those expensive items he buys for himself. I think he might be on a similar level of wealth as one of the higher nobels in westeros. Im agreeing that they might have less money/ ships than he. The differnce is that this is not their focus. Their wealth is derived from other stuff such as their political power over their subserviant nobels/ framland, etc. They are not able/ not effectively able to sell those to their someone else. But those are worth a lot especially if you take the labour power into consideration. But i think that mostly a smaller scale disagreement im not saying that illyrio is poor or something. The non consent theory soounds reasonable too. Didnt see that myself/ never heard that before. i never read the dune books and only watched the first movie. But that sounds like a interesting connection. The bit about the rings symbolising people that control him, that you disagree with. firstly i'm totaly on board with that one. Is that something someone else suggested or is it some theory reference im not getting?
Three reasons secrets could get him wealthy: 1. Political connections. Employment and eventually appointment to Magister based on the secrets of his patrons. The biggest hint is that he married waaay up the wealth hierarchy (as he tells it), so there was clearly blackmail involved. The best way to deal with that kind of blackmail is to cut them in, so they have a continuous reason not to leak the secret. Plus, a savvy and well-connected guy makes a good ally and business partner. 2. War profiteering. There's no way Illyrio didn't make a killing in Robert's Rebellion, probably through selling food that's calorie-dense, spoil-resistant, and easy to hoard. And he's certainly back in business for the War of the Five Kings; he'd be a fool not to, especially with his own contender to fund. 3. He has his own secret patron or inheritance. He wouldn't be the first magnate to claim humble beginnings, or to claim his riches come from his own work rather than his ancestors' investments, or to downplay unearned or ill-gotten wealth. Do all those add up to his current wealth? It's plausible, but unlikely.
@@simonholmes841 Sry, didn't saw your comment earlier. I would focus less on the first point, because like we see with tyrion he is not really a genius with secrets. This seems to be more vary's thing. But otherwise i think, im totally on board with your assesment. Those seem to be very possible ways in which he got incredibly wealthy, although not as wealthy as a country is. Because of the reasons above. But i also find the question how he got his wealth intriguing, too.
With Illyrio, the Baron Harkonnen and rings... (um, massive Dune spoiler) If I recall correctly, the Baron Harkonnen is killed by getting stabbed by granddaughter wielding a poison needle. Not sure if its specified in the book, but in at least one of the film adaptations, its a needle on a signet ring. So... perhaps GRRM will use that as further inspiration, and kill Illyrio via one of his business contacts represented by one of the rings and/or by one of his secret grandchildren that he doesn't know / doesn't care that he has?
Very good, very good. The V&I Conspiracy could well play out like Baron Harkonnen's plan for Arrakis. I disagree with Baron having a "Varys" side. No, if any single Dune character maps well to Varys it would be Count Fenring, an ally of the Emperor Shaddam, who is a master assassin with "the manners of a rabbit." He is much more the simpering eunuch type who will never raise a hand in anger while still being utterly ruthless. And yes, the Baron is Paul's grandfather but that's a secret that doesn't come into play until after the first novel, when it heavily impacts a creepy messed-up girl named Aria. Oops, I mean Alia. Total non-Fruedian slip of the tongue, honestly. No homage there, none. Move along.
That's very interesting about Count Finring and Alia, I really need to read the Dune series tbh. It would definitely be worth doing a comparison at some point.
The gold statue... being good enough to marry the Prince of Pentos' cousin... they're easiest to explain if Illyrio grew up rich. Yet he gives himself the backstory of a poor bravo... can we read into this that he values meritocracy and likes to pretend that he achieved everything on his own merit? That kinda seems to be something Varys values, when he sings Aegon's praises in the ADwD epilogue: "He has lived with fisherfolk, worked with his hands, swum in rivers and mended nets and learned to wash his own clothes at need. He can fish and cook and bind up a wound, he knows what it is like to be hungry, to be hunted, to be afraid. Tommen has been taught that kingship is his right. Aegon knows that kingship is his duty, that a king must put his people first, and live and rule for them."
That is an interesting thought, like hes trying to portray himself as more of a "started at the bottom" kinda guy to parallel young griffs life as a sort of everyman. I think it links up with the ideas that hes of nobler birth or potentially that hes a bittersteel decent even, which has been suggested a lot here in the comments
Birth is not wealth, however. And nobody earns and saves and indulges like the new rich, the second generation takes it as given. *They are self made men who have a new project now- making a king.*@@randominternetguyoffical
That is a fun thought! I would never have thought of that. I want to do a name based episode with Nafanda Astra if she gets her channel back up cuz shes into etymology
I think that was the whents and rhaegars allies? Like in the books the crown pays for the hands tourney and presumably sweet robin will pay for his largely? I am very curious what their plans for rhaegar were tho... like what was there move if he usurped the throne?
Personally I don't think Dany will kill FAegon it's just not a very satisfying conclusion to the Blackfyre rebellions for it to end in another death Although I do think she'll kill Illyrio maybe in her second to last chapter of Winds on her way to Westoros.... I imagine she'll have a conversation with Illyrio were he reveals all of schemes with Varys and maybe even reveal Aegon is a blackfyre slaying that lie... After that I imagine a scuffle between the two but ultimately it will end with a marriage alla the wars of the roses uniting the 2 factions politically it makes sense whether he's real or not it just makes sense
What do you think awaits young Griff in terms of fate? If hes not gonna die at Dany's hands, do you think someone else will kill him? Or do you think he'll make it till the end of the books? I do kind of agree. It is a little bit unfortunate for the last blackfyre to just die and no one even know theyre a blackfyre.. I also think she's definitely going to kill illyrio! And that during that whole thing, a few of the details of her past might come out too, which would be nice to know.
@@randominternetguyoffical It could really go either way with GRRM but personally I'd prefer he survives same with Dany I hope they win in the end cause if you look at the history and then have the last of their respective families die or go mad or whatever would be incredibly frustrating
Where did you get the idea of the Valyrians being alien geneticists? Did you come up with it or is there somewhere where you can direct me to read about it? It sounds really cool.
So that's an old one out there in the fandom based on george r r martin's works that he did previously for like a decade or so. I did not come up with that, but it's pretty easy to speculate on once you read his old stuff. Preston Jacobs covered the 1000 Worlds and so I went out and read several of those books. Well most of the books I think I might have missed one or two.
@@randominternetguyoffical Oh, yeah! I’m a fan of Preston. I can’t believe I never heard of this idea before. It would explain why (I think it was TWOIAF) said they were making Krakens and chimeras and other crap. Thanks for the response!
You also said in another theory that Griff is a blackfyre even tho it's so much book evidence to suggest he's the son of Rhaegar and Lyanna and you steady keep saying Jon is Rhaegar and Lyanna's child when it's so much evidence to suggest he's Ned's son both Aegon and Jon looks just like Ned and Rhaegar like the spitting image. Ned raising a dead man's son but haven't thought the man in years while looking at his son everyday is crazy and doesn't even make same for Rhaegar to be Jon's father
Well Young G is a Blackfyre.. idk what the confusion on that is. As for Jon I think it'll end up being that he is rhaegars kid. I like r+l=d more... but its not likely at this point.
So, I would say its dark but like if he buys into his own bloods legitimately to rule then he might be one of those, "its okay to do bad just not when its to me" types? But could just be he doesn't view slavery as something he can or wants to change for other reasons? Obviously he kinda missed the mark on all that..
@@randominternetguyoffical There's a difference between seeing slavery as a social reality you simply can't change, and actively promoting its introduction into societies that so far don't have it.
he has so many parallels with rego draz, do you think he dies in kings landing the same way as rego does? In my head canon, young griff wins the throne, illyrio sails to kings landing and after a few months of misrule and maybe fear of danys dragons incoming, kings landing riots (much like in the dance) and we see another bartimos celtigar parallel. I just see his death being grusome and at the hands of the exploited like so many past masters of coin. Also there js the lust they both famously share, the rings, the mance, all too coincidental by grrm.
