According to Google, Nocturne means "a short composition of a romantic nature, typically for piano." That's so cool because it's like the parry and then the subsequent hits make a short melody of some sort
@@garvielloken8494 Cyberpunk-themed Fighting Game. One of the characters is a robot with a TV for a head. He has a Raging Demon-style super that shows an in-universe ad. It's meant to be a timer scam super. Bam, great idea.
i think it'd be neat if remy always had blue nocturne regardless of his super selection a la kkz/demon. that way it'd see extremely occasional use in the scenarios in which it's good while not giving up your other supers
The problem is Akuma only has one bar set up for all 3 of his supers. Remy has two great supers but with completely different bar set ups. You’d either make sa1 needlessly worse and unviable because you’re giving it sa2’s length or you’re making sa2 disgustingly good by making it an invincible super with good damage and a great anti air tool with the length of boomerang raid.
@@Neogears1312 Why not keep the bar lengths the same and just have Blue Nocturne have a different cost depending on the super you choose? Blue Nocturne would be cheaper and synergize slightly better with SAI, but you're doing this with the cost of running a super that's a bit less generally useful than SAII (although ig that depends on the matchup). Also I wonder what a hypothetical replacement SAIII could be lol
Something you could’ve shown to compare it to Daimon’s Neomax is how with that counter super you can confirm into it. While in HD Mode you can cancel into it from another of his super
Another point I'm surprised you didn't cover is parries are a universal counter, why would you use a counter that costs meter and has super flash when you have one available in parry? Yes you need to guess high or low on oki but it's still significantly less risky than using a counter super that has a guaranteed punish if you bait it.
The last point is a really important thing developer's don't always seem to understand. If a game has moves with full invincibilty, a counter is almost always WORSE, because the counter won't come out if the opponent isn't hitting, and fully invincible moves can be used in the same situations and more. It's especially bad when counters don't work against throws and projectiles, while invincible attacks do. The few edges counters may have is if they trigger grab-like moves that work every time, like in KOF. That means they may work in rare cases that just invincible moves would whiff, and they can counter from any range without falling out. In KOF there are a few anti-air counters that are useful for this reason, when DPs may trade or whiff against some jump arcs, the counter always triggers the hit. SF has always seemed a bit strange to me how for a lot of supers the victims can just fall out, whereas in KOF very few supers do that, and most attack barrages are basically a cinematic that's guaranteed if the first hit connects without trading.
i think counters like Jiren's (DBFZ) counter are a great design for that weakness. yes, it wont trigger unless you hit him (Or throw) but you can change how long its active to throw off the opponents punish. if you compare that to a standard Dp it has fair balance of pros and cons.
@@internetmovieguy Which is a bit funny and ironic given that Jiren's counter was initially *extremely* bad apparently before it finally got buffed/fixed within the past year. I think the same applies for Videl's dodge move, though I wouldn't be surprised to learn that one still sucked.
Another thing is utility. Rock Howard gets a counter and an invincible dp. You’d question why use the counter except the counters have a lot of utility behind them. They build meter really well on whiff and have next to no recovery on a generally turtly character. On counter hit they cause a spin which can let you combo after for extra damage and this is hit confirmable because when it’s a normal hit it hard knockdown for oki. And lastly Rocks DP is a charge motion. This adds some dichotomy to them as the need for charge makes it so you can’t use it for a panic move but it can be used offensively as well.
@@MusicoftheDamned Videl's dodge is still awful. To simplify the weakness it; you can stagger pressure her without any risk because unlike reflect it wont push the opponent away.
Hello, if you want to see how Remy should have been as a character in 3rd Strike check how he plays in 4rd Strike Arranged Edition and notice how much better he is: ru-vid.com/video/%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BE-B1j5k6ZtWmo.html
Weirdly, Remy looks very similar to Freeman from Garou, who also has a counter super. Again, Freeman’s is way better because it doesn’t have a super flash. SNK had that figured out a while ago.
On Guilty Gear, there are 2 major counter super exist, both don't have super flash/freeze on startup but activated on confirmed parry. Baiken counter super accessed by inputting the super on her sword parry animation on block (S+H) which is very difficult but technically a reactive super, while Anji counter just give tinge of sound effects upon activation which most of the time its too late to react to the super. EDIT: After re-watching, I realized another factor. Anji counter super on Strive has 2 possible followup. There are maximum vertical and horizontal distance on initiating effects to determine the followup, within the effective vertical distance (IAD for example) the animation will lock on until completion, when the attack came outside of the effective vertical and horizontal distance, it will turn into whiff punishable attack with decent reach to punish half screen distance at best but not much on upper hitbox.
@@NoirLouisStream since you brought up Guilty Gear, I remember Hakumen's counter super in BlazBlue Calamity Trigger used to have this super flash/freeze during startup. they changed it to happen during parry confirms in second installment of BB and onwards, but they kept he big red circle that signifies it being counter super (as opposed to the smaller white circles on his normal counter moves)
The only thing I can think of right off the top of my head is that Anji's counter super in GGST will actually beat safe jumps, but I'm not sure trading that for losing to throws (which most metered reversals will cleanly beat) is really all that much of a selling point.
@@schitzie it beats safe jumps, but its still incredibly situational, another comparison would be his old options between reversal fuujin and using a move with a guard point. if you try to safe jump one of his guard points, you usually get hit for your troubles.
Huh, funny this came out with the exact same topic as the Fighting Game Garbage. That series was inspired by Bad Balance as far as I know. Comes full circle.
This is why SNK's supers are better you still get complete hits even if the opponent is in mid-air and Freeman actually just walks towards you when he does he counter super and Daimon's counter super can be used in HD combos though it gives 2 hits only. Btw, it's a great video.
Posted this elsewhere but thought it was interesting enough for a discussion on the issues with counters; they often lack the utility needed to validate using these over a dp in sf. Sf counters tend to be terrible because they’re incredibly limited. In garou, Rock Howard gets a counter and an invincible dp. You’d question why use the counter when the dp has more going for it on account of it not needing you’re opponent to attack to make it work, except the counters have a lot of utility behind them. They build meter really well on whiff for a character that really wants meter., and have next to no recovery on a generally turtly character. On counter hit they cause a spin which can let you combo after for extra damage on a character with bad damage and this is hit confirmable because when it’s a normal hit it hard knockdown for oki. And lastly Rocks DP is a charge motion. This adds some dichotomy to them as the need for charge makes it so you can’t use it for a panic move but it can be used offensively as well. Rock has tons of reasons to use his counters despite the overlap because there’s situational merit to using it over a dp in a situation. In street fighter who would ever use cross counter even ignoring parries? You could either take damage and maybe hit a jump in, or land a dp that’s fully invincible. Why pick ultra 2 with Fei long? Everything you’d possibly want to choose two for sans animations available in his ultra 1. And he still has a dp for that sort of issue anyway. These options are completely skewed.
I think Kolin is the first SF character to have a meaningful counter because of its frames, since it starts at 2 frames and most pressure in SFV is based around 3 frame moves (DPs included), so it actually has an edge over certain DPs when it comes to disrespecting pressure if you have the right read, all while doing quite a bit of damage, it also makes your opponent pressure sub optimally, making the match go back to neutral, which is where she shines anyway. Gill's parry works very similar to this as well, heck, even Ryu has a somewhat useful parry since it let's him navigate through fireballs with ease, but that's not really a counter in the mechanical sense
whats funny is that im pretty sure that blue nocturne actually uses sprites where remy does a donkey kick that he doesnt use anywhere else in his moveset, so this super might just only exist to only use said sprites which if true would be a hilarious testament to how little thought this super got its probable that this isnt true at all but its fun to think about LOL
@@Random-yg1fi what controversy? MVC2 is exquisite kusoge incarnate. Glitches up the wazoo, horrible balancing. It's a product of the times, but it would be treated like Kyanta 2 or Dong Dong Never Die if it released any time after.
It’s kinda like Xrd Axl where its literal only edge over just DPing is that it does more meterless damage when you land it, but at least Axl gets to have both instead of just picking the better one literally every match
Axl's counter also counters supers. It will counter literally everything . But only on frame 4 onwards. DP is invincible on startup, but will die to armor or moves that leave multiple active frames on-screen. Or other invincible supers.
@@WHATISUTUBE Armor is extremely rare in GG though, I think Hammerfall and Leo 6P are the only things with armor in the game, and betting for someone to do a random super in pressure is really just praying you’re playing someone who actually doesn’t know how to do anything but mash. The only other real advantage counter has is that it can hit from way farther away due to its nature as a counter, but I guess Blue Nocturne also has that benefit too
@@NeoBoneGirl Counters benefit of catching moves from further away shines as an alternative to dps in a game where everyone has midscreen pokes. Or at least, moves that are outside of dps range.
Can we get SFA3 Rainbow Mika??!! I'd love to see that episode. Having watched a bunch of your streams I loved what you said in your super art tier list about this super too.
I like how this works in universe: "Instead of just attacking my opponent when they try to do something, I'll let them try to hit me, block it, then attack" Ironically, the end result is the same in game...
Hakumen's Yukikaze was 'trash' in Calamity Trigger because it was a counter super that didn't counter lows, but it still synergised with his meter-over-time mechanic by making your opponent scared to hit buttons, caught projectiles, and had a fully-invincible unblockable followup attack that went fullscreen instantly, so unless your opponent was high in the sky they'd get tagged. Not to mention the freeze only activated when you hit him and lasted just enough time for your opponent to regret their life choices. I didn't realise quite how bad counter supers could be. I mean damn.
One time I played against my little brother and he picked SAIII Remy cause it reminded him of our favorite game Shin Megami Tensei III: Nocturne and he instantly regret it
I deeply love these videos Baf, even the shorter ones. Your level of knowledge and skill in explaining things in a clear and concise way is fantastic, and makes you one of those rare quality content creators on youtube. I know you've mentioned you're a little intimidated by the series blowing up, but don't let that shape what you want to do too much. Just keep being you.
Cooler in DBFZ has a counter super. It works on everything in the game except grabs and will always connect because Cooler will teleport to his opponent and it freezes them. What's also important about it is that in a game where every super freezes the screen and will zoom in on the character, Cooler's counter doesn't do that when he uses it only if he lands the counter.
Something that would make this super significantly better is if it was available in his other Super Arts like a Raging Demon. I wonder what would replace it as SA3 tho, maybe the command grab version that is in 4rd Strike?
1:03 That never made sense to me, putting a freeze on a counter, which is supposed to be unexpected. ALL Capcom fighting games with counters have that issue. Deadpool’s 4th-Wall Crisis and Taskmaster’s Aegis Counter from UMVC3 stand out to me. Imagine if Smash Bros had Counter Final Smashes. And the idea of selecting a counter and telegraphing it to your opponent is the dressing on the dirt pile.
It's not just the Universal Overheads that have the mid-air locking issue - a lot of reactable moves that this would work well against are considered airborne. Shoto tatsus, Yun's dash punch, Elena's Rhino Horn, Remy's divekick, Sean's Wheel Kick and Hugo's dropkick/butt shoot/leaping headbutt are some moves that fall under this. Also some moves just blow through it entirely. Urien headbutt, Yun's bicycle kicks and Ibuki's neckbreaker slide are moves that blow throw it, I'm sure there's plenty of other moves that do. It's so bad even when you guess right.
The segment on counter supers having a freeze or not was eye opening, I always wondered why some games had better counter supers than others, but couldn't quite figure out why. Thanks for pointing that out to me Baf
1:18 "if you hit him this happens" and right when that was said a samsung phone ad qued in with trumpet music blew my mind for a second. Perfect timing and I just started laughing.
Maybe it's so obvious that nobody mentions it but, on top of everything else, a counter super in a game where parry is an universal mechanic that also acts as a confirm is totally redundant and pointless, basically wasting a super art while simultaneously being worse than super into parry because of how blue nocturne has recovery while parry isn't even a commitment.
I'd like to see the frame breakdown of parrying. Because you can't spam parry, IIRC, and stuff that is actually zero commitment you can basically always have active.
I garou it’s not terrible because multi hitting moves eat inputs a little when blocking, even when parrying, this allows some sneaky mixups that freeman can get out of by parrying into counter super. It’s putting the “situational” in situational merit but it still has merit
@@SparkyForce I play both Richter and Ken and almost never use parry as Richter because what is the point if I'm always going to use up special out of shield? If I parry with Ken, I get access to proximity heavy jab which is almost always my max damage punish. For how bad parry is in Ultimate, it's really only useful on Ken in my opinion
@@shanerpressley Hard agree. Parrying with shotos or characters with other fast grounded buttons is good. Parrying projectiles on the other hand isn't worth it half the time lol.
@@abbacchio2502 Yeah parry is good for zoners in the sense that it's not particularly effective against them. The original comment was saying that zoners tend to suffer in games with parries, Ultimate is a great example of that not being the case since the parry is ass.
Blue nocturne: - When you start playing the game: "I'm not picking that super because I'm really bad." - When you are an expert at the game: "I'm not picking that super because it's really bad."
I don't play much 3S (I play ST) and these videos are well done and interesting, great upload and I like the explanations for stuff I've always heard about 3S but never knew why!
One thing I would love to see, since I see it in the comments a lot, maybe in future videos you could speculate on what could’ve been done to improve the balance on things?
BYARRGH NEW BAD BALANCE BIDEO. BANK BEW BAFAEL. 1:08 That's a nice example but I think a better example would be Iori's exceed from SvC Chaos in which many Street Fighter characters are featured as well. Iori's exceed is the only counter-exceed move in the game and it happens post-freeze but it's one of the best exceeds in the game. The reason for that is that it has no start-up (1 frame?) and almost "absorbs" nearby attacks with a weirdly large "hurtbox". It's hard to explain exactly but it's really good and should be the template for Street Fighter "post-flash" counters.
If Remy somehow returns in sf6, I think blue nocturne would actually be pretty decent. You'll always have access to it and with the increased emphasis on armor and slow attacks a counter like this would see at least some use.
Sometimes things in a game don't work and they just never mess with it again after a game version breaks it or if no one pushes on it. Joe's ranbu drops in kof vs the kyokugen characters comes to mind. Plus a counter super in a game with generic parries is DOA.
I actually play a lot of Remy, and frankly I wouldn't say he's under balanced he's just not a good fit for SF3. I believe Big Yellow said "He's in the wrong game." I agree, his sonic booms for zoning don't really work when you can have them parried and give your opponent meter. I tend to use his okay buttons baiting jump ins for flash kicks, but then again parrying also stops this when they empty jump. He's awkward to play in this game, though I enjoy his playstyle.
The comparison with Daimon’s counter super really goes to show that, as good as 3rd Strike is, it’s still an old ass fighting game and newer games like KoF XIII are able to make certain design choices better than it with the benefit of hindsight.
So as far as counter-supers go, I've seen one game do a very good job about it. Urban Legend in Limbo (and the psudo-sequel, Antimony of Common Flowers, which was basically the same game but with assists and a few extra characters, and without the weird orb gimmick). Only one character has a counter-super: Byakuren. It's actually even more pronounced than Blue Nocturne, having a super-freeze AND requiring you to declare your intent to use it before use. However, another one of her mechanics interacts with it. Byakuren can throw some kind of throwing weapon (I can't honestly tell what it is) as her basic bullet attacks. If they hit or are deflected by an enemy projectile, they bounce upwards and can be caught by Byakuren. If she catches one, her next use of that attack throws 2. However, if she catches one while using the counter-super, it goes off even if the opponent did not hit you. And since the counter-super is a big honkin laser blast, it can do a great job as a combo ender if you know a good enough setup.
Hello, if you want to see how Remy should have been as a character in 3rd Strike check how he plays in 4rd Strike Arranged Edition and notice how much better he is: ru-vid.com/video/%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BE-B1j5k6ZtWmo.html
Amazingly comprehensive video, only no talk of how the super is “unlocked” with mastery a of red parry. But again abysmally situational cuz a blocked super is generally ur only route on the entire cast. You’ll probably just throw a boom then super cancel fucking yourself it if you press kick a tad early
I think from all the counters I've seen in fighting games, to be good they have to counter almost if not everything (Or at the very least have immunity to projectiles like Jiren's Shock Tornado), have frame 1 start-up, function in a way that beats safe jumps, have no super flash if the counter is a super, and allow the follow-up attack to fully connect regardless of the opponents position. Any less than that will make people not want to use it even if they don't have a DP.
I really hope that if SF6 has counter supers they get rid of the super freeze, counter supers are actually really cool, but I still don't understand why Capcom wanted the super freeze on both SF3 and SF4 only to drop counter supers in SFV.
Yo baf I am hoping to start a series soon inspired by your Bad Balance series as well as Big Yellow and his FGG series. I'd love your opinion on it when it comes out.
what if SAIII was replaced with a slowly advancing boom that was like an aegis or a booger that he could do unblockables with, would Remy work better that way?
This would almost definitely change Remy into a pressure loop character even if it costed a ton of bar. Would also create a really interesting use of meter between defensive EX booms or an offensive super boom
Hello, if you want to see how Remy should have been as a character in 3rd Strike check how he plays in 4rd Strike Arranged Edition and notice how much better he is: ru-vid.com/video/%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BE-B1j5k6ZtWmo.html
Remy’s biggest problem is his charge inputs. If he had the exact same moves but as motions he’d actually have some of the best damage in the game with incredible space control tools. Which tas videos show is possible already but not humanly due to the charge partitioning being impossible for people. It’s impressive how good Remy theoretically is, and is low tier primarily because of his inputs completely shackling how good his kit could be.
@@Neogears1312 I mean, that is the point of charge motions. The moves themselves are flat better than most comparable moves in the game because the motion is inherently limiting them in was a 236 motion isn’t
Remy funny enough one a French national a couple years ago. So by all accounts; remy is viable. I think he’s needlessly shackled by being a charge character but there’s no denying you can get mileage out of him. He’s just got some glaring weaknesses
Image if blue nocturne was a super Remy always had access to despite which super art he chose. That way people will have to be more careful when approaching him either watching for an offensive super or a counter.
Sometimes you’ll blue nocturne something and get punished for it. Is you BN the 1st hit of Shin Sho, the rest of the super will connect before you can start the counter flurry.
As bad as it is, im happy a counter super is in the game to experiment with at all. Notably on a hypothetical multi-hit attack in the unlikely scenario where you parry all hits except the last and use blue nocturne to punish for minimum damage.
I can understand why Baf made a video on Remy's Blue Nocturne and not Remy himself. Some people say he sucks, but trust me when I say this, he is nowhere near Sean and Twelve level of bad. What really screws Remy over non other than Parry, since he is a Guile imitation being a zoner, having a projectile as your main tool kinda sucks in this game since people can tap forward as soon as it's gonna hit pretty easily. He is an okay character, but in the wrong game. If he were to be in any other Street Fighter game, he would definitely do way better.
Hello, if you want to see how Remy should have been as a character in 3rd Strike check how he plays in 4rd Strike Arranged Edition and notice how much better he is: ru-vid.com/video/%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BE-B1j5k6ZtWmo.html
Yeah he’s one a national before so by all accounts he’s viable even as a low tier. Being a motion character is all he’d need actually. Tas remy gets absurdly good damage with actually good meter less zoning in a game with parries. It’s only impossible because humans can’t execute the charge partitioning needed to do them. But if they were just QC’s and SRK inputs he’d be honestly about as good as ken with his crap lows holding him back from being any higher.
@@Neogears1312 There is the technique that allows Remy to "cook" his charge motions he can do crazy zoning with it, meaning that you can barrage the opponent with sonic booms as long as you mix the lows with the high, not that difficult once you get the timing. And this is Vanilla Remy.
@@AmeriKameVictor the funniest part is that Capcom even gave him a winquote that pokes fun at how *absurd* they made him: "Cheap? Don't you know how much I paid for this cap?"
