You might think Twelve is a lore related name, but it is actually a subtle nod to how many interactions you need to win in order to deal as much damage as any other character.
@Future Pants agreed but those games worked because they minimized necessary interactions by making damage incredibly high making for easy TOD’s: Twelve is more like a failed attempt at bringing that back in a game where damage is only a factor with decently sized BNB’s
@Future Pants agreed, stuff like that is why I love games like Guilty Gear Strive, Tekken, Samurai Showdown and even Third Strike: they test interactions with your opponent rather than long combos, as long as you know the basics you can easily keep up with fellow players
I was thinking this exact thing while watching! especially because he's not nearly as detailed as the other characters... almost just feels like an animator had a side project that made it into the game. I doubt that's the case but that's how it feels.
You forgot the most important aspect of Twelve: if you attempt to X.C.O.P.Y. the SUV in the bonus stage, he'll just grab his head and scream. This hidden tech makes him utterly broken and by far the best character in the game.
i was like 5 when this game was on dreamcast i think. i remember only playing arcade mode and not against friends (at least not coherently) i used to think twelve was the coolest and best character in the game until 3rd strike online came out when i was more aware
I youtube started recommending me your fighting game garbage series and I became a big fan. That plus bad balance are some of my favorite fighting game content.
Yeah, Twelve's problems weren't design flaws, but poor execution. He's easily fixable by adjusting his hitboxes and damage. That Capcom had every opportunity to rebalance him and Sean after Third Strike but left it at that is baffling. They could have easily done something like KOF XI's arrange mode on the PS2 where the game received further balance tweaks, or you can opt to play the arcade version.
I’ve always had the opinion that Twelve is an extremely interesting character with a lot of cool ideas. I really hope they’ll come back to the series, a good more fleshed out Twelve keeping the ideas from Third Strike would be amazing
Oh wait, we do have a “Twelve” in SFV called Eleven, and his entire move set is X.C.O.P.Y, meaning he actually has no moves besides morphing into a random character.
At the very least, I've come across some pretty funny move names when discussing Twelve with other players, including Super Prickly Pear and EX Wiggles.
I used to play a twelve player in 2DF era who would start every match by typing \ _ / One time I asked him what it was and he said it was twelve's face.
I'm getting some hilarious ad breaks in this video. First hit of Ken's SA3 cancelled into ad break. The "Supers" title card was followed up by an ad that started with a "content not appropriate for children" warning.
@@tammid8423 It's possible. I like to listen to a lot of RU-vid while I'm working and while I'm procrastinating on working. And while Marvel vs. Capcom 2 is the game I play more, I still have a lot of love for 3S. =) Feel free to say hi when you see me!
Thank you for mentioning that parries reward some characters more than others. I think the discourse around parrying being an equalizer and that tiers somehow doesn't exist is so dumb.
@@Unit_00 they would be MORE unbalanced, but that doesn’t mean the game has amazing balance with their inclusion parries help the problem, but they don’t fix it completely
@@Unit_00 People that never played the game and just watch Maximilian playing it tend to say that sort of stuff a lot lol, it's kinda of why this game is treated like a masterpiece even tho it really isn't
@@nickkiller-0710 "who said that 3s has perfect balance (...)" was a rhetorical question. I was trying to say that I never claimed such a thing, so it was an unrelated thing to point out. 3s is a masterpiece. What is a masterpiece anyway? It all depends on opinion.
I remember playing Twelve so much back when Third Strike was new, and being disappointed to learn he was the worst character in the game. His animations are wacky, smooth, and an absolute masterclass in spritework - I sincerely hope he comes back reworked, since imo he's one of the best 'morphing' characters ever produced animation-wise.
As somebody who just started playing sfv dhalsim, your point at the end about Twelve as an experiment that paved the way for better balanced low-damage neutral-dominant characters totally made sense. Very insightful, great video
I always like to think of Fighting Game Characters in terms of "Points." When designing a character, or even an individual move, how many "points" do you put into its startup, its damage, its safety, its cancel ability, so on. When you give a character a plus-on-block move, it likely loses its point-stock in range (a la most Lights). For every Frame 2 Command Grab, those points come from endlag if you whiff. Either way, what I'm saying is that Twelve's points all went to his animation and design, then they shook around the remaining 4 points in their hand and said "Well we can't *un*-design him"
Your conclusions at the end were really interesting. I really wouldn’t have expected twelve to have a lot in common with chun. And your point about his neutral is really interesting. It makes it feel like twelve is one good special move or one good cancel to super away from being a pretty strong character actually
I've been waiting for this one. I wrote an extensive analysis on Twelve on TV Tropes a while back, looking at his numerous flaws. I still play as Twelve regularly, just for the sake of changing the pace (Chun, Akuma, Sean, Hugo, and Elena are my other characters) and throwing opponents off. One of the most underutilized aspects of Twelve's SA1 is the invincibility it gives his upper body. If timed well, it will let you dodge and counter projectile Super Arts like Ryu's Shinkuu and Denjin Hadoukens, Akuma's standing Messatsu Gou Hadou, Sean's Hadou Burst, etc. It will also go through Urien's Aegis Reflector (!), Oro's Yagyou Dama, Chun-Li's Kikosho at certain distances, and beat out Necro's Electric Snake. It can also counter Remy's Light of Justice, but you need to be mid-range and trigger it before the second wave of projectiles come out. In short, it can be used as a counter Super Art in certain matchups. That's very much in line with Twelve's overall design; it's not about big damage or combos, but outmaneuvering opponents via unpredictability and countering by punishing whiffs and missed parries. Anyone who jokes that XCOPY is his best Super hasn't spent enough time experimenting with SA1. Also, one of his most overlooked tools is his neutral medium kick. That awkward close-range knee is surprisingly good at racking up stun. Seriously, give it a shot. It can be linked into by using aerial heavy kick in the corner. It also has better recovery time of some of his other moves. One other thing worth noting is that his instant air dash makes him highly susceptible to air throws due to the slow speed, especially if he's changing directions. Hugo is the obvious matchup that comes to mind (though that can be countered with Twelve's aerial medium punch depending on the spacing), but Chun Li is absurdly good at it due to her superior jump speed and range. Seriously, even if you have only a little bit of experience using Chun Li's air throw, you should be able to stop most of Twelve's air dashing antics cold.
After posting this, I decided to go back into training mode and experiment. A few interesting things: -Most of his instant air dash enders can combo into his normals. All of his fierce, roundhouse, strong, and forward ends can combo into his weak/short attacks. But more importantly, they can also combo into his neutral forward kick. This is the high-stun knee move I mentioned in the previous message; not only can you easily rack up stun and keep the opponent on the defensive, but it also hit confirms into SA1. This is absolutely essential for his pressure tactics. I haven't tried this on all the characters yet, but it does work on all the shotos. -His back dash has some unique properties if your opponent is in the corner and you're using aerial attacks. Let's say you try go in for an instant air dash and end it with a fierce, roundhouse, strong, and forward. If your opponent gets hit or blocks, watch Twelve's animation carefully. As soon as he lands on the ground, input a backdash immediately. If done correctly and depending what attack you used, he'll backdash somewhere between half and all the way across the screen. This can be used to discourage opponents from trying to counterattack on block. When combined with the combo ability of his aerials to his normals, it becomes clear that Twelve's strategy was never about high damage; it's about maintaining pressure, keeping the opponent off balance via unpredictability, racking up stun (which is very easy to do with the knee), and finishing with a super. -Lastly, he has an OTG super via his matchup with Hugo. Do his neutral throw, and perform SA1 or 2 immediately after Twelve lands on the ground. It's obviously extremely risky against Hugo, so only do it if Hugo is dizzy and you want to show off.
@@vicetube As in Chun-Li level broken? Hmmm... Off the top of my head: -Give him the ability to parry during his air dash. That alone would fix his biggest vulnerability. -Increase speed of air dash, especially turning. -Give him an air throw. It makes no sense for a character that spends most of the time in the air _not_ to have an air throw. -Improve his ability to grab on to corners. Instead of just quickly bouncing off a corner after air dashing, he could simply get close to a corner (either via air dash or jumping from the ground) and crawl up or down the wall and still attack. -Double his crawl speed. He could even have an EX ground dash. -Increase damage of all attacks. -Improve priority/speed/stun on all normals. For example, his roundhouse is unsafe on _hit_ against Chun-Li, which is ridiculous. The range of his ground pokes needs to be increased, and at least a couple of them should be able to combo into each other and/or a Super Art. His only multi-hit attack shouldn't be just AXE. At the very least, the hit box of his knee should be increased. -Fix the input timing/hit box for aerial roundhouse so its crossups come out consistently. Give it an EX version with two hits. -NDL should be able to track opponents (including attempted crossups) as a default ability, not just via EX. It should be able to juggle multiple times in the corner, a la Necro's back fierce, Dudley's crouching roundhouse, etc, -AXE's should be the same as Necro's Electric Blaster; simpler input and can be done infinitely, but obviously with pushback on block. -DRA should two hits on default, three on EX. It should also let him go past the opponent, not bounce off of them. -Increase max amount of hits/stun on neutral throw. -Make XNDL & XFLAT OTG for all characters who don't quick stand after neutral throw, not just a glitch against Hugo. -Make XNDL able to activate immediately after a teched throw, a la SA2 Chun-Li. -Make XFLAT have two bars instead of one, and have more ways to combo into it. Make the damage the same regardless if it connects on ground or aerial opponents. The 4rd Strike game mod has an excellent version of this. -Decrease the meter for XCOPY, but give it multi-hit properties a la Yun and Yang's SA3s. Again, the 4rd Strike mod has an excellent version of this. -Increase recovery speed of his post-XCOPY and taunt animations.
Really wish Third Strike would get a revision, it's a great game but the balance can be so frustrating specially in cases like this. I really like Twelve on paper, a character with unusually good air-mobility but weak combos who on theory doesn't get that much reward from his combos but can harass the opponent frequently due to his airdash. For me what kills him is that he ALWAYS does garbage damage, even when you decide to spend half of your resources the damage is just little more than what other characters get for free. Personally if 4th strike or whatever was ever released I wish they would keep Twelve with weak combos but make his damage in neutral good and make his specials/super not laughably bad/situational.
Unfortunately that's unlikely to happen because a bunch of 3s stans decided to go against a rebalance for some ungodly reason, but I guess we can still hope
Honestly the problem isn’t truly his damage, it’s that he never gets knockdowns. If Twelve could get slightly more damage off of axe cancels and actually get like, a knockdown, he would be like 20 times better
I don't play any fighting games, much less street fighter, so I dunno why I've been recommended this, but I can tell it's a very well put together video, so good job
It's always nice to see more videos on the Bad Balance series. Do take your time if you have to though, because they're always a great thing to watch, even for people who are completely out of the loop when it comes to SF, such as myself, due to how informative and in-depth are. I feel like a lot of people want Twelve to come back, not just because of his intrinsic weirdness, but because they want his legacy to be more than just a laughingstock in SF3. Overall, great video, maybe one day we'll see the blob shine
I love to play twelve man 😭 He's so cool and fun I genuinely wish he wasn't so bad, you have to try so hard and win neutral so many times. Fortunately his neutral is quite good if YOURE good but nonetheless is prey to Akuma and Ken air tatsus and the like. Very cool character, I find him cute :3
That's a really fascinating perspective as to why he is the way he is. It sort of makes sense to see him as an experiment which explains why Chun is the typical neutral dominator with regular damage while Twelve has the most laughable damage of any character ever. They couldn't have not known, you would think at least. Though I wonder if any dev would waste so much development time into an experiment, especially considering the high quality spritework in this game.
Excellent video, Baf. I love Twelve and often get frustrated by people saying there's nothing good about the character. Not that I don't think he's bottom-tier, but the idea that none of his design works has always been flagrantly uninformed. And the Chun-Li comparison was excellently demonstrated. Thank you for putting this video together!
I wonder how many 3S characters you could reasonably make a bad balance video on, cuz I think there’s honestly more candidates than not lol. Twelve definitely feels like they were really scared of what his airdash *could* do, and imagined he’d be getting a lot of pseudo jump-in combos, so balanced his damage around that, but the problem is that he isn’t getting most of his damage from airdash
Yeah, I'm by no means an expert, but it seems like 3S has worse balance than the Mortal Kombat games. MK, mind you, being a series that hasn't really cared to heavily about balance (or at least were unable to do so) until MK:X
@@Oh-Ben Getting used and good balance aren't the same thing. Just cuz someone knows how to deal with the burden Remy, Q, Necro etc. doesn't mean that they're well balanced, not to mention that it doesn't really represent the other side of the Chun, Yun, Ken dominance
I really appreciate the work you do to put out such matter of fact videos on fighting games. I always go to you first to sit down and learn about characters. Thanks a lot for your efforts!
I look at Sean and see what happened easily; over compensation. He was a high tier character overblown as a top tier simply because Sean lore wise is the weakest character in lore. His sa3 had 2 bars and then they nerfed it. Dp had incredible range and in 3s now it’s awful. Tornado kicks comboed into super in 2I. Now they’re unsafe on hit. Sean’s most glaring weaknesses come from trying to tone him down too much which makes his atrocious design understandable. I can’t even begin to perceive what they were doing with 12. Nothing seems to synergize or gel with other tools in his kit. He gets low combos but low damaging normals. He gets middling pokes but no combo opportunities. It just doesn’t add up how we got 12 in this state.
@@willow7610 considering how there’s unblockables and characters like necro and remy don’t play even remotely how they were clearly intended to play I doubt that. That’s giving the team that made a tatsu punishable on hit too much credit.
One really unfortunate thing about Twelve is that he would actually have a really decent kara throw with his far MP (on par rangewise with Akuma's) if they had just made his close MP into a back+MP input like Necro's. I mean it's not huge, but at least it'd be something, you know?
Omg I was so sure this series was finished! I’m so glad to see it back! Take your time. School and real life is infinitely more important! We love you anyway and want you to succeed ❤️
Thanks for this vid, Baf. Ive been maining Twelve for a while now and I was getting really tired of “Why Twelve is bad” videos that just cherry pick his worst aspects and don’t go into any of his unique abilities Edit: For the record you can combo into EX DRA out of EX NDL in the corner but why would you ever do that
FINALLY got a chance to see this... I completely understand life getting in the way. I've been a fan/player of 12 ever since 99, and it's always been interesting to me how they designed him. Thanks for the insight and the playlist - definitely checking that out!
28:55 Not to play devil’s advocate here, but could you not say that one of the reasons Twelve gets so many hits is because the opponent doesn’t have to fear those hits?
I enjoy this series of videos a lot and it's how I discovered your channel so keep up the good work man! Also on another note the timing of the ads made this video more enjoyable for me XD
I honestly think you should expand the series to any character you want to do rather than just overpowered or underpowered characters. If people can use this to improve their Twelve, they can use it to improve any character they play. SF3 is pretty hard to get into as well, so in-depth tutorials across the board could help people get into it. Just a suggestion. Overall, amazing video.
Its sucks how Twelve has decent moves but just needed some tweaks for knockback and damage output to be decent. Great video as always though, its always fun watching new videos of your Bad Balance series
Twelve is genuinely like my favorite street fighter character gameplay wise, his weird unique playstyle and attacks are unlike any other character ive played in a fighting game and i really hope either he or a character like him gets a chance at viability some day
I picked up Twelve again, I’m actually enjoying playing him. I can actually sometimes pop off with him and it feels satisfying because of how punishing he is. So yeah, overall playing him is worth it if you like the playstyle
Twelve has to be the weirdest character in SF history in my eyes. Can't wait to see your Bad Balance take on SF2 or SF4 Vanilla Sagat, or something like Chun-li 3rd strike.
I'd honestly love to see an upgraded version of this guy in SF6. A mimic character would be a really fun gimmick, and would immediately stand out among the rest of the cast.
