Book of Mormon Witnesses - Pt 1 - The Three - Dan Vogel 

I remember my first psychology class in college .... in which a glass of water supposably had peppermint extract added. The glass was passed around the class, in which @50% smelled the peppermint. There was no peppermint, as the it was revealed it had just been retrieved by an assistant from a hallway water fountain. The power of suggestion and one's own will to project their desires, no matter how irrational, create an environment for absolute loss of subjective reality. If you believe your house is haunted, it is.

Ahhhh~ that soothing voice of facts. I could listen to this guy all day.

Your presentation is well researched and presented in a fair manner. When dealing with faith, facts become emotional and emotions become fact.

the author's analysis is much more sophisticated than most of the reader's comments who mostly respond with emotion

“We love the poorly educated”-- doesn’t that sound familiar!

Sounds like brother Joseph was feeding them all magic mushrooms.

Another outstanding video, Dan. Thanks for all you are doing in the field of Mormon history.

Im so glad i found your page.

Well done. Thanks Dan.

I strongly disagree with the hypnotism theory presented here. I think that the simple 'Emperor's New Clothes' explanation is more likely- "If you're not seeing it, you're not worthy... the others saw it."

If the gold plates were actual physical objects, why did the men need to pray or exercise faith to be able to see them?

Excelente job!!!!!.....is interesting heard the real arguments about the first vision, and how the 3+8 witness They thought he saw something that did not occur as the plates .

What is Delia homen and ball of director and sword of layman that you mentioned?

I questioned some missionaries recently about what they've been taught about the three witnesses. The missionaries said they were taught that the three witnesses had a spiritual experience and did not really "see" the plates or an angel as such, it was something similar or the same as a vision. I then questioned them about the eight witnesses, and they said that they were taught that it was non-visionary and real.

The question of whether or not the witnesses actually saw and handled gold plates is moot, since Joseph Smith didn't even use them to transcribe the Book of Mormon. He used his magical rock-in-his-hat method. B. H. Roberts, loyal and worthy LDS historian, wrote a book titled "A Study of the Book of Mormon" in which he described Joseph Smith as "brilliant" with a ''creative imagination", and postulated that Smith was quite capable of writing the Book of Mormon himself.

Really well, professionaly done. But yeah, I don't know about hypnosis theory..

A person who actually knows, and there are such, can see what doubt does to ego.

I'm really so sorry of this is a bother, but someone I'm close to is really rather curious about a few things regarding the witnesses. Would you happen to know why the witnesses who left the church didn't attempt to revoke thier testimonies?

Very interesting and informative. I suspect that, there actually being four witnesses in this event, at least two were cooperatively lying. To attribute this vision to group hallucination is very, very generous. Martin Harris saw a great many things in his life. It is telling that he was never an apostle. I think Smith viewed him as easy to manipulate, but also a loose cannon who could not be controlled. Just my guess.

Subscribed

Dan youre a great researcher

Smith probably gave them magic mushrooms.

All fables, thank you for the truth!

Umm, where's Part 2?

It sounds much like the experiences reported of guided imagery ...especially those under the influence of mood altering substance.

I've heard that - the source of "Hold to the rod" was the divining rod

What the mormons told me is that you have to believe because you're heart tells you that the book is true and not because of any evidence.

What does it feel like chasing the wind in the distance and saying, got you in my hands now , your not as elusive as you have made us think you are?

Did I hear you say "lie"-ahona? Lol

...OR there are such things as spirit people (empirically speaking) and such could/can communicate telepathically; thus bringing about the various mind's eye visions. Again, such a possibility could at least be considered as a contributory explanation.

If you're looking for something, you'll find it. If you want to see something bad enough, you'll see it. Oh, religion.

I came here looking for discredititation of the 3 witnesses. I don't feel nor does any of Dan's evidence do it for me in discrediting the three witnesses.

These three, and probably the eight, wouldn't be allowed on a jury or would not be accepted as reliable witnesses, and would be struck from the panel of the jury or witnesses on a typical case.

Isn't the entire issue of the "golden plates" and the Witnesses moot since Smith ostensibly used his seer stones to write the Book of Mormon??

Nowhere was it written that Smith was not allowed to make copies of the plates. This could have been done by making rubbings as the plates were said to be engraved. That's what I would have done as I would want physical proof for later study and to make translations into other languages.

I’ve come across lots of reasons not to continue with in the moment church but this about the three witnesses it’s not one of them

Why do Mormons believe Joseph's Myth ?

FEELINGS ARE NOT PROOF!! Ask any die hard of another faith, their feelings lead them to “the truth” as well.. 🧐🧐🧐

Sounds like these men were on psychedelics to me.

MAGIC MUSHROOMS FOR EVERYONE. VERY FUNNY 1800's SHIT. LMFAO

Is Dan still a practising Mormon?

Quitting the Mormon Church (Unabridged) I have been thinking of quitting the Mormon Church. Yes, if I can, I am going to get even with that church. As soon as I can find another church that teaches about the Gathering of the House of Israel; the return of the Ten Tribes and their mission; the return of the Jews to Palestine and why, and how they are going to build the temple; the building of temples and what to do with them; the mission of Elias, the prophet, as predicted by Malachi; the method for the salvation of the people that died at the time of Noah in the flood; the origin of the American Indian; the complete explanation of why Jesus of Nazareth had to have a mortal mother but not a mortal father; the explanation of the three degrees of glory (three heavens) as mentioned by Paul; the complete explanation of why Elias and Moses did not die but had to be translated (since they both lived before the resurrection was introduced by Christ); the restoration of the gospel by modern revelation as promised by Peter and Paul and Jesus himself; the belief in eternal marriage and the family, and the knowledge and the place to seal for eternity; that teaches abstinence from all harmful drugs and foods; and that sells the best fire insurance policy on earth, for the last days, for only a tenth of my income. Yes sir, as soon as I can find another church that teaches all that, or even half as much, I will say good-bye to this Mormon Church. The church that I am looking for must also be able to motivate 90,000+ youth, and adults, for the first, second or third time, to leave their homes for two years at their own expense and go to far-away places to teach and preach without salary. It must be able to call, on a frosty day, some 5 or 6 thousand professors, students, lawyers, doctors, judges, policemen, businessmen, housewives and children to go and pick apples at 6 am. It must be able to call meetings and get the attention for two hours of more than 300,000 men. Yes, it must also teach and show why salvation is assured for children who die before eight years of age. Mr. Editor, could you help me find a church that teaches all that and more than hundreds of other doctrines and principles, which I have no room to mention here, and which brings solace and comfort to the soul; peace, hope, and salvation to mankind, and above all, that answers the key questions that all the great philosophers have asked; questions and answers that explain the meaning of life, the purpose of death, suffering and pain; the absolute need for a Redeemer and the marvelous plan conceived by our Father and executed by Jesus Christ the Savior? Yes, as soon as I find another church that teaches that, and also that has the organization and the powers to make that teaching effective, I am going to quit the Mormon Church. For I should not tolerate that “they” should change a few words in the Book of Mormon - even if those changes simply improve the grammar and the syntax of the verses - for, after all, don’t you think the Divine Church should employ angels as bookmakers, and clerks, to do all the chores on earth? Don’t you think, Mr. Editor that the Divine Church should also have prophets that don’t get sick and don’t get old and die, and certainly, that don’t make a goof here and there. No, sir! A Divine Church should be so divine that only perfect people should belong to it, and only perfect people should run it. As a matter of fact, the Church should be so perfect that it should not even be here on earth! So, I repeat, if any one of the kind readers of this imperfect letter knows about another church that teaches and does as much for mankind as the Mormon Church, please let me know. And please do it soon, because my turn to go to the cannery is coming up. Also, “they” want my last son (the fifth one) to go away for two years and again, I have to pay for all that. And I also know that they expect me to go to the farm to prune trees, and I have heard that our ward is going to be divided again, and it is our side that must build the new chapel. And also, someone the other day had the gall of suggesting that my wife and I get ready to go on a second mission, and when you come back, they said, you can volunteer as a temple worker. Boy, these Mormons don’t leave you alone for a minute. And what do I get for all that, I asked? “Well,” they said, “for one, you can look forward to a funeral service at no charge!”… Do you think you can help me to find another church? Thomas D. Clark

Even though it's way off topic, the same analysis should be applied to Saint Paul and the many early Catholic Saints who either had visions or physical stigmata that miraculously appear. Blindness, hallucinations, and marks on the body that have no "cause" are highly suspect, no matter the cult.

Also, there is certainly the possibility that they were using psychedelics of some sort to help enter into that disassociative state.

All of these confusing explanations on which witnesses saw what and how the testimonies vary... these historians seem to omit the possibility that the Joseph Smith’s witnesses could have been under the influence of psychedelics. I wish I could ask Alan Watts. This speaker explains that the possibility of hallucination cannot be ignored...

David and Martin didn't have the Aaronic priesthood for the ministering of angels in June of 1829

Is there ever an account of any of these men testing the spirits? 1john 4: 1 ¶ Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world.

The existence or not, of these plates is simply a red herring. Joseph actually read the book through the pebble placed in his hat, in the same manner he used during his money digging enterprises.

You can find the modern equivalent of the three so-called "witnesses" and their visions in any Christian evangelical tent meeting where as soon as the fellow on stage declares that he feels the presence of the "holy spirit" then his believing listeners, as if on cue, start heading for the nearest aisle so as to better be able to lift their arms, gaze up at the ceiling, and begin to shuffle their feet or hop up and down to rhythms from an electronic keyboard played for the express purpose to encourage and continue the silly demonstration for up ten minutes or more.

When I was shown the testimonies I was skeptical: “… which contain this record, which is a record of the people of Nephi, and also of the Lamanites, his brethren, and also of the people of Jared, which came from the tower of which hath been spoken.” Joseph Smith was the one with the power of God to translate the plates.The 3 men couldn’t possibly know their meaning. The testimony of 8 says: “… all of which has the appearance of ancient work, and of curious workmanship.” They were no experts on ancient workmanship, so they were in no position to testify about it. You could argue that god told them it was true, so they didn't need understanding of the characters or expertise in ancient artifacts. If that's true, seeing actual plates was not necessary at all. They could've prayed right in their homes at the behest of Smith, then sign at the bottom of the paper.

They accuse us all of not being able to see God with the natural eye, however, when they speak of seing with their spiritual eyes, they declare that they never saw them at all. The truth is that the will never accept the truth and their lack of faith leaves them blind to the power of God. "having a form of godliness, but denyng the power thereof." They say the "Mormons" are hiding the truth, but when a believer opens up HIS IMPRESSION of the events, they are unhappy with the spiritual explanation because, to them, these things have been done away with. "having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof."

Is it true that "horseshit" is translated in Reformed Egyptian as "Mormonism?" I love Mark Twain's quip about the witnesses' testimony that, "I couldn't be more satisfied if the entire Whitmer family had testified."

Good stretch looking for issues that are not issues. There is so much more to the Subject. If it was a lie why did they all stick with it. While you sit and attempt to find fault in others you fail to show where you have any thing comparable much less any thing better to offer the world than that contained in total sum of the work started through the accounts of Joseph Smith. You can tear down something but where is your better vision that I should replace it with?

Wanna buy a used covered wagon. How many of those Mormon leftovers shot for Hollywood film were meadow massacre originals sitting in the barn. What a group

Why would God give Smith a "book" on gold plates that required him to "translate" using one or more "stones" placed in a hat? Why not just give him a book written in the "King's English"? Or would that have been too difficult for God? Secondly, why not leave the gold plates with Smith permanently? Doesn't the fact that the plates had to be returned raise questions about their actual existence? My feeling is that the book of Mormon is equal in veracity to the Quran, another book given to a prophet by an angel, albeit in that instance, to an illiterate cave dweller.

Yeah they just look like cartoon characters them self

The BOM is so obviously a (and an easily provable) fraudulent document that a discussion of witnesses is not only irrelevant, but rather just adding insult to injury. On the other hand, multiple accounts, varying accounts, and overall low integrity of the witnesses (or conflict of interest among the witnesses) leads most thinkers to arrive at the conclusion, upon inspection of the two affidavits, that they are historically worthless.

Sounds like Cowdry had depression.His writings definitely would be easily mistaken for suicidal ideation.

I'm confident that people can have visions without being in groups; you'll find lots of Christians out there that will claim this. So I think that puts some doubt on Vogel's theory of a group induced hallucinations. (Paul the Apostle could be an example of this.) What I also find interesting is Vogel's definition of vision and hallucination. A vision according to Vogel is something from God. A hallucination is something explainable by natural/normal means (not involving God.) Myself, I would probably describe a vision as a spiritual hallucination; one with angels and so forth.

How can any sane person be sucked into this religion?

OH AYE AND POOVIES GALLONDER WITH THE B. O. M. WITHOOT THE PLATES DADDY'O !

First I heard that the Book of Mormon had signed affidavits, I thought okay the boy wrote em and they signed em. And wouldn't you know, actually reading the texts they do sound a hell of a lot like the way Joey Smith wrote. So why doesn't anybody just say, he presented his dupes with a document, put his hand over it and said sign the bitch. And then later they were stuck with it. This is an easy scam to suss out. Would somebody just run the affidavits through a text analyzer and determine that they have the identical word profile as the rest of Joey's hat dictation? What is the Church 'o Mormon's official story for who wrote those documents anyway? They have the original documents, right? Whose handwritting are they in? Do they have a story for how they got signed? Bet they don't.

+Dan Vogel Do you also "strain at a gnat but swallow a camel"? Lets bring perspective on this subject shall we. 2 Cor 12:2-4: It is not expedient for me doubtless to glory. I will come to visions and revelations of the Lord. I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth;) such an one caught up to the third heaven. And I knew such a man, (whether in the body, or out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth;) How that he was caught up into paradise, and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter. Would you also argue that this man of god was deluded? Would you also call this a hallucination? Moreover, does your church believe in visions and revelations? Does your faith have a prophet? If it doesn't, then it doesn't follow the new testament pattern. Are you not then "seeking to become a law unto yourself"?

No, since 1830 the *BOM* has been polluting the hearts and minds of people. Two questions if I may... *1* How could Jesus be the Good Shepherd if He left things unattended for 1700 years until the Mormon "restoration"? He would not have fulfilled His role, would he! *2* How can the entire faith be "restored" if in Jude 3 it speaks of the faith *ONCE* delivered?

Three different men in the same picture and they are all joseph smith on the same picture and none look alike ?????.????.wi

ST Leo -- I have visited many different "Biblical " churchs and have never found anyone with a closer relationship with our Savior than good Mormons. Regardless of criticisms of J Smith , isn't it interesting that a "false prophet" could start a Church that has better fruit than any other I visited? Consider this article I wrote. Why not the Best? When I was just a boy, I was quite serious minded and as I would look up into the night sky, I would wonder, “What is God like?” and “Who am I to him?” Well, I quickly discovered that there was no agreement on questions about God among any of the religions. Thus began a lifelong quest to find the answers. I have spent over thirty years talking to people of other faiths and visiting their services. It has been a wonderful experience and I think it has helped me to get a glimpse of why God allows so many religions. First of all, I have discovered that God answers the prayers of all people who call on Him. I have heard compelling testimonies of God’s mercy and miracles in all faiths, and even those without a church. It seems irrefutable that He does not require you to pronounce His Name correctly. Father, Jesus, God, Allah, Jehovah, Lord, etc. all seem to be understood by Him. He seems to know the intent of our prayers and our heart. We can communicate with Him even with incorrect beliefs. He loves all men (and women) and we are truly all brothers and sisters. Unfortunately when God answers the prayers of people in the different faiths, they misunderstand that answer as being “proof” of the correctness of their particular faith. They think God has put His stamp of approval on their religion and that they are authorized to persecute and sometimes kill people of other religions in defense of their “God”.None the less, There is an overwhelming amount of good that all religions accomplish. Looking at the big picture closer I discovered that all religions are trying to get their membership to do three things, 1. They want you to have a personal love and relationship with God. 2. They want you to actually live-----what boils down to be the “Ten Commandments” (Christians, Muslims ,Buddhists, Jews Hindus phrase it differently but it all comes down to the Ten Commandments) 3. They want you to treat our body as if it is the temple of God. This is what the leaders of all the different faiths would like their members to do. I discovered that when people actually do these three things, they all have the same results---Heaven on Earth. Or to be more realistic, they have greater happiness than through any other path. The good days are better and the tragedies are easier to survive. There are people in every faith that achieve these three things, and get “Heaven on Earth” So does that mean it doesn’t matter what religion you have? No, there is a difference. I’m a practical guy, and the practical measurable difference in the different religions is the percentage of members in a religion that achieve those three things. Some faiths may only have less than 10% of their members that do those three things. Other religions may have 20%, and others 30% . Results matter! In my lifetime of personal observations, I have not found any faith that comes close to success the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints (Mormons) has in getting it’s members to live those three things. It is the Best. I have six children who are happily married in the temple. I have twenty grandchildren who go to church with both parents every Sunday. I love my kids and grand kids more than life itself. I would not lead them anywhere, but where they will receive the greatest joy. Remember--- Results matter.----- Good enough is not good enough.------ Why not the Best?-------Let me use an example, Let us imagine that you have a son who you are sending to law school. You need to choose a school. School “A” has a record that 10% of it’s graduating students are able to pass the bar. School “B” has a record that 90% of its graduating students pass the bar exam. Now, I think my son is smart enough that he could be part of the 10% in school “A”, but as a loving father, I want him to have every advantage, so I want him to go to school “B” where 90% pass. It’s the best. and I want my loved ones to have every opportunity for happiness! As I said: - Good enough is not good enough for my family--. My wife and I are both converts to the Church, We have done what the Church teaches for the last 35years. It has delivered Heaven on Earth and that tremendous Joy that comes from a very personal relationship with Jesus Christ. Everyone we know who has done likewise, has had the same results. The Church instills a increased testimony of Jesus Christ that helps its members do “those three things” that brings heaven here and hereafter. Why not the Best? I have observed most ex Mormons are bitter and unchurched. That's not what I want for my family. I'm sure some ex Mormons are happy, but, it seems to be a very small percentage. So, Leo, Please write something like this that is positive that highlights the good things about your path that I am missing. Scott Marshall

Amusing that so many who claim to be Christian, poo-poo the idea that one can pray to God and get an answer to a question. James in the Bible states: "If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, that giveth to all men liberally, and upbraideth not; and it shall be given him." (James 1:5) Whenever I use that verse to prove a point, someone invariably states, "Oh, but that doesn't mean to pray about such-and-such!" Bet me! The admonition comes with no restrictions. We can pray about anything. Whether or not the Lord will answer is up to Him.

Charletan smith. Wonder if they were relatives

For me, the clear fraud is that Mormonism claims to have "restored the Gospel." Just read 1 Corinthians 15:1-4, of which Joseph Smith did not change a single word. Then look at the Book of Mormon "gospel" in 3 Nephi 27:13-17 and Moroni 8:25. They are VERY different. The Biblical Gospel says if you trust three things about Jesus Christ you will be saved: that he died for our sins, according to the scriptures, he was buried, then rose again the third day. The Book of Mormon "gospels" says salvation comes by way of FULFILLING COMMANDMENTS. Thus, Mormonism can speak and Mormons MUST obey, or they will never gain eternal life. It is the "gospel" of those who seek to control others. Sad.

Mormons sort of have to imply that they REALLY saw them though, bc otherwise, all of the general public would be like: "Wait, you want me to dedicate my life to your church bc a bunch of dudes got together and pretended to see something in the woods?" Otherwise the Mormon story has no weight or value. It's just a bunch of sketchy guys playing make believe

When I was first baptized in 1994 the first experience that I had spiritually was about the 3 witnesses to the BOM. The feeling that I had of knowing how truthful these things are a true account that they gave while being in a trance like state to testify of the BOM. I can tell you without a doubt in my mind that this happened and all 3 witnesses did acknowledge it. What I am a witness to inside my body is not of this world and it is more sacred than anything upon the face of the earth.

3 damn liars

Sweden BORG cern has a borg Thanks

Ouch! One must first put aside these mens' personal reputations and not consider whether they were honest or scoundrels. Then we must put aside _what_ they said and interpret their accounts as surreal and superficial. It doesn't matter a whit whether the men were together or not, if you wanted to get into a scuffle back in those days, all you had to do was suggest that the testimony they bore was somehow mistaken. It's incredible how someone can take such a clearcut testimony and turn it into doubt. That Harris saw the plates and angel separately adds to its credibility. Dan, you seem to be dishonest in your research and in your motives. I'm willing to let God judge.

A lot of words and conjecture which add up to a big nothing burger

I invite and encourage all who doubt the origins and authenticity of the Book of Mormon, to read it. That is the only way that you will know its true. Do not put your trust in man. For man and all his logic, scientific evidence and quick witted words, cannot save you at the Judgement seat of Christ. The Book of Mormon is true and nothing will change that.

They really mislxled ppl

Bobba Booey 3:17.3/4 :"Their eyes translated the image(s)to their brains so to receive the knowledge of the Lord and the fullness of his gospel and they learned that their BOSS was the BOSS of all BOSSES."

I think we need to take our questions to faithful sources

There were no angels, no visions and no plates.

1 Corinthians 2:9 eye hath not seen, nor ear heard: which could never have been seen to be read by the eye of man, nor the sound thereof ever heard by the ear of man, had not God been pleased to make a revelation of them; and though they are to be seen and read in the sacred writings, and to be heard either read or expounded, with the outward hearing of the ear; yet are neither to be seen nor heard intellectually, spiritually, and savingly, unless, God gives eyes to see, and ears to hear; the exterior senses of seeing and hearing are not sufficient to come at and discover the sense of them; flesh and blood, h Context Wisdom from the Spirit of God …8the wisdom which none of the rulers of this age has understood; for if they had understood it they would not have crucified the Lord of glory; 9but just as it is written, "THINGS WHICH EYE HAS NOT SEEN AND EAR HAS NOT HEARD, AND which HAVE NOT ENTERED THE HEART OF MAN, ALL THAT GOD HAS PREPARED FOR THOSE WHO LOVE HIM." 10For to us God revealed them through the Spirit; for the Spirit searches all things, even the depths of God.…

Prayer and witnessing the fruits of the church which are very good show me the truth. Joseph Smith was visited by angels and is the true prophet of the church of Jesus Christ of latter day saints. Either you have faith or you do not.

This work has done nothing more than strengthen my faith in the witnesses to the BoM. My prayers and desires to know and accept Truth leads me to know that the stories in the BoM are true, along with the knowing with assurance that Jesus is the Christ and my Savior. I've only been an active member of the Church for less than 5 years, and am still in my infancy; but that doesn't keep me from knowing in my soul what is true and hearing the voice of God declare it so. Being a former Mormon basher, I can tell you that you can't let the truthfulness of the BoM be known to you until all you want is the truth to be clear, regardless of former pretenses.

Along with Carol Gee, I visited the Peter Whitmer Farm after a trip to Palmyra for the Hill Cumorah Pageant. The spiritual experience there was even stronger than the hour long trip through the Sacred Grove produced. We went to inquire of the Lord if the Church was actually founded at that location. I testify in the name of Jesus Christ that I have never had a vidion, but I know, without a shadow of a doubt, that I know the Restoration in all its glory is TRUE, by the power of the Holy Ghost.

Most members know this. And. What do you bring new?

They were all liars and were in on the con. Or some were liars and the witness testimony was falsified. It's the only explanation that makes sense.

Ya it says something like they saw it with their spiritual eyes. Well that’s subjective as to whatever that means. But listen to physicists. I listened like a two hour Lecture on lexman Freds podcast and the professor was like ya as humans we do NOT SEE REALITY. We don’t perceive most things. Academia saying that is kind of shocking. Or quantum entanglement. Academics is basically saying there’s a crap ton of stuff that we don’t know about or see. Ya got ideas like multi dimensions which would explain Jesus after resurrection just appeared in the room with apostles just appearing without going through the door. And maybe things Joseph smith wrote are a lie. But it’s equally easy to argue the Bible is full Of crap and you really just need to be an atheist if you want to simply believe in logic. The Bible says tons of times jesus was carried away by the spirit. Or this kr that guy was transported by the spirit. Like WTF is that all about? How can the spirit something that’s not physical or like the wind not tangible how can that move a physical being? If we’re using logic here the Bible is full of crap just like the Book of Mormon from a logic perspective.

This just goes to show that no amount of evidence can convince someone of something that they don't want to believe. As the Book of Mormon writers said, we'll see when you stand before the bar of God.

How about three witnesses plus Joseph Smith Wrote the book of Mormon

Appears to me anyway, this is an attempt at grasping at straws? These explanations are not convincing and to most Christians, cannot be consistent when compared to similar New Testament accounts. For example... 2 Corinthians 12:1-4 Where it talks of Paul knowing a man being caught up to the 3rd heaven & not knowing whether he was in his body or not (God knoweth). Nearly the entire book of revelations is a vision the Apostle John had. Peter had a vision (Acts 10:9-15), Cornelius had a vision (Acts 10:1-6), Stephens vision (Acts 7:55,56). You could then expect the restoration of God's church to likewise have visions. I have no doubt that the apostate leaders of the jews used every type of arguments to keep the people in that day from believing these visions as well.

Here are some of the erroneous and dangerous MORMON teachings, which are in deep and obvious conflict with Christianity: "GOD used to be a man on another planet." (Mormon Doctrine, p. 321, Joseph Smith, Times and Seasons, vol. 5, p. 613-614, Orson Pratt, Journal of Discourses, vol. 2, p. 345, Brigham Young, Journal of Discourses, vol. 7, p. 333). "The Father has a body of flesh and bones as tangible as man’s . . . ," (D&C 130:22). "God is in the form of a man." (Joseph Smith, Journal of Discourses, vol. 6, p. 3). "God himself was once as we are now, and is an exalted man, and sits enthroned in yonder heavens!!! . . . We have imagined that God was God from all eternity. I will refute that idea and take away the veil, so that you may see." (Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, p. 345). "God the Father had a Father." (Joseph Smith, History of the Church, vol. 6, p. 476, Heber C. Kimball, Journal of Discourses, vol. 5, p. 19, Milton Hunter, First Council of the Seventy, Gospel through the Ages, p. 104-105). "God resides near a star called Kolob." (Pearl of Great Price, p. 34-35, Mormon Doctrine, p. 428). "God had sexual relations with Mary to make the body of Jesus." (Brigham Young, Journal of Discourses, vol. 4, 1857, p. 218, vol. 8, p. 115). NOTE: This is disputed among many Mormons and not always 'officially' taught and believed. Nevertheless, Young, the 2nd prophet of the Mormon church taught it. "Therefore we know that both the Father and the Son are in form and stature perfect men; each of them possesses a tangible body . . . of flesh and bones." (Articles of Faith, by James Talmage, p. 38). "After you become a good Mormon, you have the potential of becoming a god. "(Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, p. 345-347, 354.) "Then shall they be gods, because they have no end; therefore shall they be from everlasting to everlasting, because they continue; then shall they be above all, because all things are subject unto them. Then shall they be gods, because they have all power, and the angels are subject unto them." (D&C 132:20). "There are many gods." (Mormon Doctrine, p. 163). "And they (the Gods) said: Let there be light: and there was light." (Book of Abraham 4:3). "There is a mother god." (Articles of Faith, by James Talmage, p. 443). "God is married to his goddess wife and has spirit children." (Mormon Doctrine, p. 516). "The trinity is three separate Gods: The Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost. That these three are separate individuals, physically distinct from each other, is demonstrated by the accepted records of divine dealings with man." (Articles of Faith, by James Talmage, p. 35). NOTE: This is truly astounding to read, for the Book of Mormon itself states: "And now, behold, this is the doctrine of Christ, and the only and true doctrine of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost, which is one God, without end. Amen." (Refer original 1830 printing of the Book of Mormon, in 2 Nephi, at the end of Chapter 13, on page 120, also refer the current LDS website where the same wording is quoted. This wording agrees with the doctrine of the Trinity as taught by mainstream Christianity.) Blessings!

Why did either God lie or Joseph Smith broke his direct covenant with God about how many witnesses there were supposed to be? (a total of 3) The Covenant with God/Joseph states below: From the LDS website: www.lds.org/scriptures/dc-testament/dc/5.3?lang=eng [Doctrine and Covenants, Section 5:11-15] 11 And in addition to your testimony, the testimony of three of my servants, whom I shall call and ordain, unto whom I will show these things, and they shall go forth with my words that are given through you. 12 Yea, they shall know of a surety that these things are true, for from heaven will I declare it unto them. 13 I will give them power that they may behold and view these things as they are; 14 And to none else will I grant this power, to receive this same testimony among this generation, in this the beginning of the rising up and the coming forth of my church out of the wilderness-clear as the moon, and fair as the sun, and terrible as an army with banners. 15 And the testimony of three witnesses will I send forth of my word. Now, not only were there the 3 original witnesses, old Joe added some, breaking his covenant with God who said there will only be 3 witnesses. Oliver Cowdery & David Whitmer & Martin Harris are the 3. 8 more witnesses were added without another word said: "BE IT KNOWN unto all nations, kindreds, tongues, and people, unto whom this work shall come: That Joseph Smith, Jun., the translator of this work, has shown unto us the plates of which hath been spoken, which have the appearance of gold ; and as many of the leaves as the said Smith has translated we did handle with our hands; and we also saw the engravings thereon, all of which has the appearance of ancient work, and of curious workmanship. And this we bear record with words of soberness, that the said Smith has shown unto us, for we have seen and hefted, and know of a surety that the said Smith has got the plates of which we have spoken. And we give our names unto the world, to witness unto the world that which we have seen. And we lie not, God bearing witness of it." Signed: Christian Whitmer & Hiram Page & Jacob Whitmer & Joseph Smith, Sen. Peter Whitmer, Jun. & Hyrum Smith & John Whitmer & Samuel H. Smith Hmmm...so MORE witnesses were added, without approval from God and therefore also didn't have the "power granted" to be able to see and feel the gold plates. Who's lying here? God or old Joe? Let's not forget. ALL OF THE 11 WITNESSES LEFT THE CHURCH. That's how much they believed their own testimony. Even Emma didn't follow the church you're probably now in. She and her son Joseph JR started the RLDS. You're all mixed up.

Could have, Might have, Possible that, Maybe that, Plausible that. None of this critique even approaches actual scholarship. How about some actual empirical evidence that supports your position here? If, for example you reject Anderson's use of character evidence for the witnesses, this closes the door for you to use such evidence as you see it as an argument against them. You can't have it both ways. Either it is possible for men to receive real visions or not. Admitting the possibility that men can hallucinate does not advance your argument one iota that the 3 witnesses were actually experiencing a subjective hallucination. Besides, what possible empirical evidence could you bring to bear on this issue? Advancing the possibility that the BOM is not historical is not evidence because it begs the question. Arguing that the experience that the 3 witnesses is invalid because it is "subjective," is nothing more than insisting that any experience to be "real," must be "objective." What you are demanding is scientific evidence (code word for "objective") to support spiritual claims, while knowing full well that there is no scientific evidence that could exist to support these claims.

Devil

Their witnesses reliability cannot be ascertained because their testimony ends in their deaths. If there was a complete chain of witnesses who were analyzed for their trustworthiness up until our time we would then be able to analyze their claims in front of our eyes. Since the book is self-contradictory itself their witness means nothing. And more importantly, there cannot be more than One True God. Since their book calls to multiple gods it cannot be from the Creator of all that exists.

it's just simple if you know the history of how missionary of the Church of Jesus Christ in latter day Saints starts their routes in spreading the Gospel as you can see on the page the names of the witnesses were not the same..only the have common were the prophet Jospeh Smith show it to them..Given a chance what if the place of the said event were different i believe that if you go to different place and we new we always addresses ourselves to the place where well known people they have known in that place ...if you are missionary that time you will do the same..who knows putting their names on the first few pages on the book of Mormon is just a appreciation of their contribution for the payment of the printed pages..and besides the Gospel inside the Book of Mormon is still the same with the old version..we just only focus on the Gospel not the one who have write it and always be humble and put Jesus Christ on a center of our lives the world will be at peace ....

Vogel's arguments are not new. Like the proverbial dead horse, it's being dragged out again for another beating. Not one of the witnesses ever came forward to deny or revise their statements. They saw their testimonies in the book! And whether they saw the event together or Martin saw it later makes not a whit of difference. Talk about a tempest in a teacup!

Mr. Modern44, Yes they do on many different levels. No organization gets more good from every dollar than the LDS church! Thank God for the work of the other religions too!! Why are you so negative?

To the author of this material: Ive seen material like this almost to the exact same pattern about the actual existence of Jesus in both Roman and Jewish history; incredible parallel between your work and theirs; must have reached out to the same ‘author’ in the background if you’d know what I mean; one day you’ll know anything can be proven either way; Jesus, Creation, the Great Flood, the Resurrection and so forth; materials like this ( Though the author boasts in his deep and vast preparation) can be produced on any given subject meant to be based on faith; yes, one day you’ll realize this is by faith not by evidence; the Savior and his earthly existence and resurrection is meant to be by faith not by evidence; we are here to believe and NOT be proven; ‘if you believe in me you shall have eternal life’ or ‘ if Im proven real you shall have eternal life’....

Dan can't imagine that the witnesses told the truth, so he has to image something else. The trouble is that his imagination is not history. He accuses the witnesses of hallucinating, but again, this is just his own imagination. So we have the witnesses claiming that they had a remarkable experience, and Dan, who wasn't there, saying that they didn't.