Chinese Carbon Frames… What No One Is Telling You! 

I have an Elves Avari and it's really comfortable to ride and feels premium compared to expensive brands almost twice its price. I also think they named it Elves as a counterpart to the Giant brand 🤣

Aren't just about ALL Bike frame built in China or Taiwan?

My frame is from ICAN (A10, this frame is an aero rim brake frame). I am very happy with it after thousands of miles. Hambini has done a video on their frames and was very effusive in his praise of their build quality and attention to little details. The LBS who helped me buld it up was also impressed with it. It is not as cool looking as Elves or Winspace. Mine was built with Ultegra Di2. ICAN makes excellent wheels too.

I rode and raced on Chinese Carbon frames and wheels for years without any issues. Even got me into the National TT champs.

I built my first Chinese carbon bike back in 2013 (road bike), second build in 2015 (XC MTB race bike), and 2019 (single speed for city riding). There were no big name Chinese brands advertising on their frames/parts on my first two builds. To date, I've only broken a seat post. It's great that Chinese brands are stepping up into the big brand/support league. I like to buy local but bike parts are priced out of this universe. Hopefully these Chinese brands will eventually force big name brands to bring their pricing somewhat down to realistic price levels. Thanks to channels like this one, this process is being greatly accelerated.

Elves is a reputable brand here in Southeast Asia, especially Philippines even pros use elves frame and orome wheelset of elves. Pros use it in their trainings and races as far as I know I haven't heard anything yet break their frames. Aside from elves, winspace is also a popular Chinese brand frame here in Philippines I've also seen pros use it. Personally, I'm also interested in buying elves vanyar in the future.

I have an Elves Falath rim brake option it has been extensively tested by various carbon specialists and been found to be of the highest qualitypound for pound with my sram-e tap winspace 65mm hypers and 38mm bontrager shallow drop handlebars i would put it up against ANY big brand frame.....The whole bike owes me approx £3.5k so i am well pleased!

I'm chinese, I can tell you why is Chinese' carbon so cheap, because it's almost without technology, to ensure its strength, they use more carbon on it, it cause the weight of carbon exceeds that of aluminum alloy, so it's better to buy an aluminum alloy frame instead.

If you are not professional cyclist I don't see the reason wasting over $10k for a bike.

I’m going to land on either an Elves or Windspace, thinking of a Lightbicycle wheelset. One thing that’s keeping me from pulling the trigger though is that I’d rather have a threaded rather than a press-fit BB, seems like all the frames I want are press fit. I understand why regarding performance engineering, but for me threaded is just so much easier to service in my garage.

Great advice, love the comedy touches and look forward to seeing "Gordon's" compete bike, price and your honest review

Specialized = Merida = Carbon Frames in China

One thing I considered when buying a carbon frame, is how easy is it for the builder to lay up the carbon in the mold. The easier it is, the better chance the frame will be very good. I would not consider Pinarello copy. It looks like it would be a challenge to get it right.

Im baffled how people want to buy these gravel bikes and put road tires on them and call them road bikes hehe. They ride like crapola compared to PROPER road bikes with rim brakes and less spokes. I get offered free wheels and frames every 2 weeks on average but knock them back because they want to give me disc and I dont want to push junk on my audience when there is a better performance option ie rim for road.

I bought an un-branded frame from Tantan cycling. I've put 1000s of kilometres on it; I ride it almost all year round in Denmark. I really can't say anything negative; I got my dream bike for a third of the price I would've payed for it here in Denmark.

Winspace is still the best company around and thats after testing almost all the big brands ,and before buying I was very doubtful. I now have 2 Winspace frames and 2 sets of carbon hyper wheels,and Ive put both through hell and back riding 50 to 60 ks a day,mainly climbing...and im blown away at the weight (6.9 to 7.2 kgs) and the ride quality. They are good.👏👍🙏

Thank you Jourdain for another very informative video, and it was nice to meet Gordon. Can’t wait for the bike build video.

i put together a full sus MTB using a chinese carbon frame from lightcarbon during the pandemic simply because of non availability of name brand bikes. i also equipped it with their carbon wheels (with dt swiss hubs). i have since beat the tar out of that bike in the north georgia and western north carolina mountains and it has performed wonderfully. my road bike is a trek madone SLR so definitely at opposite ends of the spectrum. as Jourdain said, do your homework, be patient because the shipping is not fast, buy extra derailleur hangers!!!!

The new Elves Falath and new WinSpace are the TOP 2 frames in quality.

I think the biggest issue and the one nobody has really tested, to be fair do to the cost to do so is QC and consistency, you would need to buy many of the same frame to test the consistency of the build. Also, good luck having any recourse should you be injured due to a QC failure.

I'd buy a Chinese made frame. My Scott Foil was made in Taiwan 12 years ago, no flaws so far. It rolls @17.25 pounds. China has been manufacturing bicycles for almost 100 years. What we are seeing is higher quality products made in China and Taiwan. I was in a Specialized shop last week and for $15,500 you could own an S-Works, and Trek ProjectOne Speed Concept SLR 9 @$15000. Good to see prices coming down at last. I would be curious to see some drag coefficients on these frames.

Proud elves user here and were a racing team using elves frame here in doha qatar. Aside from being affordable this brand are really competitive.frames are light and stiff.

Really good video! I bought a T1000 (model JH33) carbon frame from TFSA unpainted (raw carbon from the mould). Few brands offers raw carbon but they did! I paid like 600 pounds or so, then spent another 500 pounds on a carbon workshop to cover up the mechanical wire holes and such and then another 150 pounds to have a custom designed and made headset. Because the headset for these frames are the worst piece of shit ever... The tolerances are through the roof! But a custom made one is like 5 times lighter and way more safe. Then spending another 400-500 pounds on custom painting (one painter wanted 800 pounds and that felt a bit steep). So all in all, I spent 1700-1800 pounds on a chinese frame alone BUT! This model that I bought is a geometry copy of the Tarmac SL7. My frame after all the carbon work and without hardware 833 grams. Which I feel is amazing! Because most chinese frames are much heavier than the top tier frames. A normal Tarmac SL7 Fact 10r carbon is about the same weight as mine or a few grams heavier. And the S-works SL7 raw is like low low 700 grams. But then, the S-works cost 5000 pounds and my custom painted one is around 1700-1800 pounds and slightly heavier. Even the normal Fact 10R SL7 costs like 3500 pounds, twice the price!

ELVES frames are only manufactured for small people, tall people need not apply.

I've just built an Ican A9 TriAero Frame...(a Chinese brand shipped from Hong Kong over to Ireland) built on a Dura Ace platform hydraulic Brakes/Mechanical shifters... FarSporrs Feder Series Wheels. 45mm depth which is also a chinese brand... Weighs in at 6.9 kgs including bottle cages;. Pedals;. Computer mounts... 49 cm frames... Very nice looking bike... Yet still have to have a long time review on it as it was just built up...

I bought a XC full suspension Chinese carbon mtb frame from Ican about 6yrs ago & I road the piss out of it & I still have it. I don't ride it anymore because I moved on but I still have it👍🏿

I use a Chinese frame for $ 450. Mileage is about 27000 km..there are some minor complaints about the painting eliminated a small backlash in the fit of the steering bearings .I also use an integrated steering wheel + stem for $ 50 - 40,000 + km nothing has broken.temperature + 40-35. reagents on the road

All of those have anemic-looking head tubes which is why I imported a Ciöcc Blade whose head tube is as wide looking from the side as a Trek as a reference.

I enjoyed this video. I'm more in the friction shifting, vintage suntour, steel, autistic mindset. So I consider most of this video irrational madness. But I still enjoy watching videos from the other side of reality.

I bought a Lightcarbon gravel frame and it's holding up well. I'm about 220lbs and I've had no issues with anything cracking or creaking. Frame cost was in the $600 range and it came with a two-year warranty. I'm also using their seatpost, wheels, and integrated stem/handlebar. No issues and great pre-sales support.

Elves frames are good Its popular here in the Philippines its also quite durable

All Chinese frames are of open mold designs even your frame is .The brand is just responsible for finish and warranty's. You can purchase frames of good equal qyalit direct from Deng fu or hong fu who have been making frames for over 10 years or buy direct sample from alibaba as Ali express is a 3rd party seller and save money

Main drawback of Elves is that that their size 58/59 is really at best a 55/56. They don't really do anything for even moderately large riders, let alone big bois. Does anyone know what the real tire clearance is on the Falath Pro Disc? Most of the Chinese brands say 28, but in some cases that means 34 and in others 27 ...

I have a JAVA VESUVIO Disc Carbon T700 frame made in china and it performs really well, just need to upgrade brakes. 8.5/10 bike

Thanks for the advice Great vid👍🏼😊 How about doing a similar one on Chinese carbon wheels??

If you're in china you can basically buy these frames at half the price you saw online, for example the 1000-pound winspace frame can only costs a little over 2000 CNY

what many youtubers dont tell, they get the frame for free, to give a review, when you try order from factory on website, it dosnt work or they have very very limited frames, sizes and colors, so I very well understand why people avoid those companies

Majority of bike frames are made in China, often painted in Taiwan, so brand can slap 'made in Taiwan' label. Let's be honest if you spending £200 on a frame posted to western country, don't expect miracles. If you spend circa 1k you are getting decent quality frameset. Warranty, well Specialized, Trek, etc had issues with bikes £10k bikes, it took them a while to recall or rectify bikes. I have number of bikes some mainstream, some "Designed in the UK" LOL :-) and last one was bought directly from China. The last one is the best.

I have 3 Yoeleo frames (Aero, climber, and gravel) and all great build quality and fantastic handling bikes. It's true, do your research and it will pay off. Yoeleo was also around 5 yrs before 2011 as purely an OEM manufacturer before going solely under the Yoeleo name. Like I said research the brands that interest you.

Mine was £500 from China and it's a solid as a rock. How much does it cost for a Western brand to make a frame in the far East? They'll never tell you but there's a reason they don't make them in the UK.

Other trusted inexpensive brand such as 1. Pardus. 2. Winspace. 3. Polygon. 4. Elves. The price equivalent or little expensive than Elves but still got cheap entry level bike with UCI. Top brand's price should be around above brand's price.

I had my java vesuvio for 18 months now, one hell of a frame, 4k miles and counting ...

It's an open-mould frame. A generic frame used by multiple brands with different brandings.

First time watching your videos and you got a new sub. Seen similar content but you did this very well and better than many other similar videos

Is bike build full video out yet mate ? Stunning colour 🔥🔥

Specialized is made in Xiamen China and not Taiwan, 300m from Winspace. Elves is made in Shenzen on the border of Hong Kong. It’s owned by Taiwanese people and sent to Taiwan for painting. p.s I bought the sabe frame with the bars for 4500 Yuan /495 Pounds. I live in China and know the factory manager.

Same for me. I chose Winspace T1500 aero frame, Ultegra Di2 12v groupset and Novatec 50 mm carbon wheels. Assembled by me. Cost : 4500 euro. Bike: Perfect.

don't forget to add import tax; VAT and delivery to the cost of those frames. Its something I'll consider once I get bored of my Alu ribble frame.

Thought I was watching the hot crazy matrix for a minute😄 great video 👍

Spot on video Jourdain.

Somewhere between bargain basement and top quality is best value……But even a T700 carbon fiber frame is a big leap ahead of most aluminum frame bicycles IMHO if it is built correctly. TANTAN cycles mass produces T700 through to T1000 CF frames for many bike frame sellers within China. But also a smaller frame, e.g., 52cm gravel bike frame does not get twisted under stress relative to the larger frame sizes. I built my wife’s 52cm gravel bike using TanTan’s Seraph T700 bike frame and it is an excellent “Fit-for-Purpose” bike from our perspective.

Buying from a frame builder established in this century is all you need to know.

Tbh, I think if I was in a market for a road bike, I'd definitely consider these bike frames from China/Taiwan, but... I'm more into mountain biking, and those frames take considerably more abuse, so I'd be much more doubtful about their strength. I've heard lots of horror stories when someone was flying downhill and the seat stay snapped after a drop

I own a Chinese carbon 88 wheels. Yes they used to be really bad a years ago but they are well built. I used them year round, it had surface scratches, no cracks but I did fell hard and the rim hit the floor at an angle and a rock was there cracked it but overall very strong. I even taken it on potholes And jumped curve sides. The problem Chinese carbon used to have was they would use cheap epoxy or the formula wasn’t well portioned.

It seems to me that a lot of assumptions are made on the, frankly unquestioned, belief that a name brand frame...almost certainly made in the same factories...is automatically more durable or of higher build quality and spec than the "unknown" brands.

What no one is telling you is that Giant is the OEM for 80% of all bike companies.

👍 Subbed you for your real authentic style videos, but I must admit this is great too 😀👍 It must be more work though. I am new to all this road bike stuff, I don't think I'll be getting into carbon the first couple of years though, but you'll never know.... wonder if I could just replace the frame on that old defy 4... 🤔🤔🤔 LOL 🤣 🤣

I have a elves nandor frame on my mountain bike and it's perfectly fine.

I bought a Cipollini aero frame on Ali Express and almost every ride I do is a 26mph average, that bike is fantastic, not one issue with anything on the bike, for some reason a lot of RU-vidrs don’t like replicas but a deal is a deal, do your research and buy what you like

I don't get concept of reputable company... Those companies sell 100s of frames, it's not even possible to gather any statistics.

A problem with all this also is the quality isn’t always repeatable or consistent. Just because you had one or two or five stories of good frames isn’t a guarantee the very next one will be the same. China is known for building good when they’re being watched but when the boss or the QC guy isn’t there, every thing goes to crap, or then even build it shittier on purpose.

I have the same IKEA shelf unit in the cellar with bike components and products on it.

Did you notice that there are expensive frames with poor quality in the "high chance of success section"? But maybe you are lucky and get a high quality frame at the cost of zero which is also in the same section. 🙂

the main reason for carbon is to get the average rider to pay $10,000 for a bicycle from manufacturers.

Try Pedal Force I built a bike from one of their frames and it was cool. But when I bought my Trek Domanme 6.9 Disc I felt the difference. Pedal Force is great, just stay away from bike demos...LOL!

5:52 im sorry to say that the type of fibre used has absolutely no meaning. You did say that youre not an expert though.

I haven't had any issues with my 2 Chinese carbon frames, and just brought a 3rd to build up.

Motobecane Le Champion CF…..can’t go wrong with this frame set. Good foundation to build a quality road bike with

At first I didn't trust China Carbon Frames from Aliexpress but I was riding my Cervélo Caledonia 5 one day and got overtaken by one of these Elves bikes. They're insanely light and aero.

Too scared to say Taiwan?

Im just waiting for my elves eglath pro disc frame cause here where i live my friends like to alternate our route with flats and climbs

Been doing this with 90's steel then Aluminium frames, a classic race bike with modern campy groupsets and mavic wheels for years. I only buy a few things new. The rest second hand.

How can I tell if the company is reputable, since I don't really know people who deal with these companies, and whenever I google for carbon frame I get tonnes of options.

Velobuild is also an option for direct to consumer

The big brands are all made in china (except for a couple Italian brands), but 'assemble and painted' in Taiwan or other parts of the world. This way the brands can use this loop hole to avoid putting on their label the made in china which is frown upon in the Western world.

Great video !

So the conclusion is - more expensive should be better - thank you very much.

We all know stuff is outsourced to places in Asia. That's basically true for everything so I don't think that's a good argument against buying western brands. That argument is ignorant of how different outsourced manufacturing and manufacturing for the domestic market are in China etc. I think the real difference is: Is the warranty actually worth anything? They can write 2 years on a piece of paper but if they refuse to honour it or want you to ship the frame back to China at cost will your local consumer protection agency be able to do anything? Maybe this matters less if the cost is 1/2 of the western brand but only if your time is free. Who do you sue when the head tube breaks off mid-ride and you end up with missing teeth and/or brain damage? Is there actually anyone to take liability when something goes wrong? Even if the dealer that imports the frame is in the same country is it more than one guy that'll just fold the company when something goes wrong? I write this as someone that buys a ton of stuff directly from Chinese b2b markets like taobao..

It's a myth that Chinese carbon and moulding is inferior, but what people don't realize is that most of the world's carbon products are manufactured in China or Japan. I buy carbon wheels from Ali Express and they're pretty damned good as far as I'm concerned.

I've got the Elves vanya which I'm really happy about and I think I really want to get the falath. But I heard they were working on a UCI certified version of that bike yet to be released. I should wait for that one

I have a twitter r10 frame made in china. So far it has been excellent and no issues.

I ride as fast on my Double Happiness ultra Carbon V2 as a Colnago C68

I own an Ibis Mojo Carbon fibre mtb which I bought in 2007 and it is still strong today. I built the bike up and it cost me 3k then. I researched the brand and the product I was going to invest in. China is shrouded in mystery to certain degree and has a negative cloud hanging over it as there are plenty of conmen to there. Not to say that it is not the same in Europe but branding counts for everything when it comes to bikes amongst other high end products. Can we say there is one high end product which has a reputation of being up there with the main ones..? I would like to say yes. But I have not seen one yet Giant is one of the biggest bike brands in manufacturing yet they do not focus on making carbon fibre frames or bikes yet they are a reputable brand other areas.

The best cadre aluminium lights or titanium carbone no for amateur biker bro

My EC90 carbon areo bar just snap into two from light hit

In the Philippines, ELVES is common - it's sold for around $1000 usd...that's right, half the price in UK...so will it last? for city riding and dirt roads, it might; provided that the rider rides it gently and body weight don't exceed 100kg. BUT it does break easily when put to test - like riding it rough, not doing jumps, but just riding it in rough conditions. The weakest points of the bike are in the seat tube and the chainstays. 3 of my friends who bought that same frame you showed - the seat tube just got wrecked so easily. Another cyclist in my town claimed that his chainstay snapped for no reason. The manufacturers did replace it but, damn it was too much hassle. Also, I just lost all my trust on that brand. So cheap carbon bikes are for NON-AGGRESSIVE RIDERS...don't bother wasting your cash if you love rough riding like me...

I bet u don't know that in China we have some factories they even make fake SWORKS, CERVELO frames, they paint these frames with some top brands on it. And they claim these are t800 or t1000 level carbon, it's actually good if it is as what they told. Here we go, the price is unbelievably cheap, around $500(actually from 2000-5000 RMB), and they are being honest to say it's something imitate from top brands, so i mean if u are buying it, don't count on it should be high quality, but still u can go out to meet ur friends and tell them to check ur new SWORKS frame.

cost x quality is never linear tho.. But like the vid, although quite obvious statement

Brilliant video

Java is another Chinese bike that you can rely on. They offer full carbon bikes, but I got one with an alloy frame and carbon fork (cause that all I can afford) So far, it's really strong and durable. I've crashed on it last year and it's still doing good now

But 4 years ago I bought a carbon pro frame and forks for 250pounds from Planet X. It was brilliant.

Where is the science?!…no need for this long video concluding, “just buy the most expensive frame and you are probably ok”. Why didn’t you inspect the frame by professional carbon scan tech? It does exist. Your intentions are ok, but you are just using up server space with this video :)

Unfortunately, they don't make a size for me. The biggest they make is basically one size too small. 😞

seen you make 50 video son this frame and aint seen you ride it yet.

Can’t put a price a long hospital stay! Give me warrantied frame with decent R&D and verification checks.

All carbon fiber has a lifetime. The fiber doesn't fail, but the resin most surely does day by day, week by week the resin grows microcracks. Now, the amount of time it takes to fail depends upon the strength of the build. But you can't have strength and light weight. So, in order to a reliable long-term frameset, you have to throw away the major advantage of carbon fiber. Colnago only offers a three year warranty. Trek offers a lifetime warranty, but they are not particularly light, and they count on people selling them for newer models, which voids the warranty. Aluminum is barely heavier than carbon fiber and, with the same quality of build, lasts 10 times as long. Steel can be made only 5% heavier and with an almost indefinite life. Are you racing? If not, why worry about 2 lbs? I have a Moser that weighs 19.5 lbs. and you can get a Waterford Racing that is a lb or more lighte, and you never have to worry about it steering itself. God made metal for bicycles and carbon for pencils.

Great video.

Influencers be influencing.

So your answer is "don't go too cheap and it should be ok"? In that case, all a shady brand has to do is charge £1000 for something totally crap and claim it's made from Toray carbon. You didn't test or prove anything.

Just out of interest, are the graphics on yours clear coated over or just stuck on like mine?