Hey guys, just a heads up but Walt accidentally set my mic to 200% in discord so that's why I'm louder/kind of distorted. Definitely unfortunate and I did my best to try to mitigate the volume differences but sorry in advance, and we'll make sure it doesn't happen again!
I feel the main thing holding melee back is the gamecube controller and how inconsistent it can be, the way it degrades over time and pain it can cause to people. There has to be a better way and people are finally figuring that out. I hope that in the future no one uses the stock gamecube controller and better alternatives are available for everyone that offer more consistently, ease of use and comfort.
Soooooo.. When I research the "Panda GameCube Controller" this and the goomwave motherboard video pops up. Does this give us a hint that the new Panda controller will use a Goomwave mobo??
Or even someone who would refute that you "need a fight stick" to play Street Fighter at a high level, which is just wrong. There are tons of world class players in every major fighting game that play on pad.
I have to preface this by saying I love the content everyone here has been putting out and this stuff is super important to the community. Mad respect to all of you. That being said it seems like Blur was the only one who knew anything about box controller mechanics let alone GC controllers in general. Would love to see a follow up to the controller debate but with more guests who have deep knowledge of both GC and box hardware/software (E.G. Hax, Stephen Kasmir, Nez, Goomy). I just recently switched to box and there's a lot of subtle nerfs/disadvantages/advantages you could learn about by just reading the B0XX manifesto and watching Hax's videos. Hope to see more podcasts and videos going forward, thanks for everything you guys do!
this is a slippery slope and it needs to be addressed asap. i like oxy_crimson, he wants to tackle the problem before it gets out of control and saying "idc because it doesn't affect me" doesn't help. what you guys need to understand is everyone here has the power to help regulate the Melee community. good video guys.
Nice episode! It was definitely a bit on the longer side, and I do feel as though the controller topic started to drag on a bit too much at the end. However, you all made very valid points thoughout the conversation, and I think it would have been really interesting to have someone with more experience with alternative controllers (say, for instance, a B0XX player) be included in the discussion. I feel like it could have given you (and us) a better view of both sides of the coin. The rest of the topics were great. The black empowerment invitational is incredible. Also, I do think online rankings would be a great addition, and hey, I'm all for having both of you leading the way for a new tier list! :p Thanks for the awesome content!
I would like to add the topic of accessibility to this controller discussion. Something like button remapping seems great to one of our local players who only has one hand. He has to a third party GC controller because it has a Z button on the left side of the controller which he is able to hit with his hand. With button remapping he might be able to actually use a regular GC controller and map the buttons in a way that he is capable of using. I haven't read the doc that blur mentions but i think if there is a revision being made there should be a clause for accessibility features for people who need them
I think the discussion of controllers was well intentioned and generally fair, but I think we really need to see more representation from actual boxx users. I've heard Blur talk about this a dozen times over the last few years, and I've seen rebuttals to some of the stuff he's said in the past, but I haven't seen a lot of discussions where both sides are actually discussing things in real time, calling out misunderstandings and putting things in context. Personally, I think analogue joystick movement is a lot more important than people realize, box players not being able to DI optimally is a pretty big deal, it didn't get talked about as much in the first wave of boxx players, because a lot of them didn't have a choice, like Hax - they didn't swap to get an advantage, they swapped in order to keep playing. A few months from now, some of the people who are swapping to try and get some competitive advantage may swap back when they start to feel the limitations, especially if things like goomy's new motherboard help fix some of the shortcomings of regular controllers. On the topic of cheating / verifying controllers, I don't think fully open-sourcing the controller software is the right call, because that will actually make it easier for people to cheat. If the normal firmware for a controller isn't capable of playing back macro's, then someone would need to build custom firmware to do it, which isn't easy. It gets a lot easier if the source code is readily available though. Opening it up to a few people so they can verify there's no macro support is probably the right move. That said, the #1 deterrent to cheating is economics, a top player getting caught cheating will lose a ton of money in the form of twitch subs, so it's unlikely they will take the risk. I'd be more worried about some csci student modding the firmware and trying to win $80 at a local every week with ledgedash and SDI macro's. Though, anyone who's beaten a 20XX fox CPU knows it takes more than perfect execution to win a game of melee.
With this controller discussion that Blur is talking about why are the TO's not in a group call deciding what is and is not going to be allowed in their tournaments? Until people say no, those with incentives will continue to push the boundaries.
I don't like that this entire discussion was framed under the assumption that the Panda controller and goomwave will be able to replace the diminishing supply of GCC's. There's no evidence that Panda Global will be able to manufacturer the mechanical parts of a controller. It's a minor point, but creating a high performance controller that doesn't use pre-existing mechanical parts (Sanwa's or mechanical keys) will be very difficult. Also, I live in Vancouver as well and have a b0xx so if you ever want to test one out let me know. lul
Macros that generate multiple inputs should be banned for sure. Other than that I think the box and other controllers like the goomwave (I only know what it’s capable of from watching the video) is fine. However if the goomwave isn’t allowed neither should the boxx and at that point should notches be allowed?
As someone who plays super casually and wants to start improving. The gcc sounds very off putting just based on inconsistency. The cost dynamic for modded controllers also sounds like a box would be a better investment
I think if you’re just starting out it does make sense to me to look into what controller you wanna use, as it’s always going to be a pain to have to re-learn the game later on if you switch. That being said, I don’t think the GCC is inconsistent enough for me to tell new players not to use it or something. It’s still a fine way to play and learn the game
just because Nintendo never manufactured a fightstick or licensed a 3rd party to make one doesn't mean there shouldn't be one. Smashbox, B0xx, Frame1 and Smash Stick are fine as long as there is a Tournament mode that can be set or there is a universal rule set to follow when making them. modded controllers should not be allowed at all period. if you're not good enough to keep up then make the change to box controllers. that's just the way the way the world works...EVOLUTION! it's up to the community to keep things inline and make sure people don't cheat. it seems to me people are using the whole box controllers as a reason to legalize cheating 😂
Modded controllers, which almost all top levels players use, shouldn’t be allowed at all? I get that there should be a universal standard for legality, but that just seems asinine.
@@dylanelias8595 it’s not asinine it’s cheating. Having added parts and or software “making actions more consistent” is most def cheating. You smash players lost sight of that ages ago when all the top players ok’d it.
@@GuNStArHeRo212 Nintendo manufactured controllers that are so inconsistent that they had too. Consider the context. Maybe in the future I would agree, but even then BOXX/Frame1 are still better than modded controllers. Banning them would just hurt the scene and punish the people who have been playing on them for over a decade.
@@GuNStArHeRo212 is UCF cheating? I don't understand, we should normalize having the best possible working controllers for this game, boxx style or gc.
i could listen to waff talk about the stuff he's doing all day. wish the audio was a little higher quality, or the turns people are speaking were a bit more organized. good show guys
Blur's call to make the code for these controllers open source could cause more issues than it would solve -make it open source so we can see what's going on- sure, that's all good, except making the code open source means that anyone that can code can then edit the code and change it, regardless of being licensed/patented, once you have purchased this license or hardware or whatever, potentially making the controller more broken while still being able to maintain the output data that would tell your anti-cheat device/software that it is a legal controller because you can see the code that would tell the anti cheat device what is going on. If you agree that the current version of the b0xx/goomwave is legal and fair, making the source code open source makes it easier to modify it in an undetectable way to make it more unfair/unbalanced.
roundtable discussion about the b0xx, with zero b0xx players hahaha. Blur raving about players creating macros when that has basically never happened... epic. The reason players don't cheat in melee is that it takes forever to get good and melee has a ton of nerds. You can't even use some TAS in a combo video without getting sniffed out, good luck trying to play a live tournament with your ledgedash button.
The controller argument has always been a difficult one. In traditional fighters, simultaneous cardinal direction (SCD) gives a distinct advantage to those who play on pad or hitbox style controllers, making the traditional arcade stick technically obsolete. People still use them sure but they are objectively worse because of that fact alone. The smash box also gives a distinct advantage as well so I do think the innovation of gamecube controllers is needed but not absolutely necessary unless you are one if the 10k players who really want to try and climb the ladder. Also, why dont controller modders just replace the control stick, similar to something akin to steelstick64? That seems like the best solution overall
What about the players with hand/wrist health issues? I may have missed it but I don't recall you mentioning that box controllers are the only way for some people to play. I started playing melee again a couple months ago after a long break and my wrists can't handle it anymore unless I play puff or something, so I'm planning to get one just to be able to play. You also barely touched on the downsides of using box controllers at all, like the fact it will take months to even get back to where you were (mikehaze guessed ~8+ months of daily use iirc), how much more technically demanding it is to use them, nerfed angles, etc. It just felt like a lot of "box controller bad because it seems bad" without going into counterarguments to your claims, and lots of fear of a slipperly slope as if there will be a day when everyone just plays with macros and perfect angles and it's somehow going to make it easy to be top 100.
Hmm, we definitely mentioned both of these points. I know I specifically mentioned how it allows people to play with RSI’s and other injuries repeatedly, and mentioned that making the switch is very difficult repeatedly so you may have just missed it(
@@nbdxSkywalker legit terrible advice LOL. Get this strongman bullshit outta here no doctor would ever recommend you “fight through” RSI’s you take breaks and modify stuff among other types of treatments
@@Radarssbm Sorry for missing it then, though I still believe the medical side is a huge part of the discussion that should be considered more by people that are anti-box. And as others said it would be good to have a box style controller user in on these discussion streams to get more perspective as well as explanations/rebuttals to common misconceptions/claims, since the more I read about it the more it seems like a lot of misinformation (at least for non top level players) is being thrown around.
@@burntfish123 don’t wanna get too in depth on this but coordinating guests can be tricky and not everyone wants to be on a show discussing this stuff, or doesn’t wanna be on with other guests etc! Something to consider I think I chose not to discuss the medical side as much because it feels obvious I guess? As in, yeah we all agree having ergonomic playable controllers is super important, but how do we balance them?
Good to know! Will keep this in mind, but def had audio issues with this particular episode due to the levels issue I pointed out. I’ll make sure to check this in the future
As soon as turn down for walt started talking about playing the devil's advocate I had a feeling he was going to bring up that you need an arcade stick to compete at a high level in fighting games and he did lol. That's simply just not true. I want to clear that misconception cause I know a lot of smash players don't play other fighting games.
I'm not sure if I ever said a player "needs" a specific controller to compete at a high level, but I apologize if it came off that way because that's not how it was intended to be framed at all. Brandon points out around 1:12:05 that SF players tend to pivot back to pad from fight sticks, but what I wanted to emphasize is that the _choice_ is given to the player to determine the best controller for them that allows them to play at a high level. Again, just trying to spur more talk from the original discussion point -- so I hope that makes sense!
Wait, is the Goomwave DX not legal? Because Goomy did a video explaining how the Goomwave DX is not better than a BOXX, and is just as good an ideal Gamecube controller...
@@Radarssbm So if both are legal, why is Oxy_Crimson discussing it as if it contains illegal modifications, or that it's against MIOM? Both do not contain illegal macros that perform moves for you.
only partway through but tell em blur, pure facts about the new controllers being let through so easy. I'm being forced to buy a goomy controller bc of the easy uptilts, sad
Is there anyway we can get high audio levels? Turndownforwalt was especially quiet, and I wouldn't be able to hear him over the machine at my work or in the shower etc.
MMR might show what % you are at, but it can not show progress against yourself, it only shows progress towards the rest of the playerbase, if I get better but others improve more you've lost MMR but gotten better.
melee is a shitshow with regard to the fact that it is tied down in so many negative ways due to the fact that their is no centrality to the game, and it is 100% community ran. Take a look at Rivals Of Aether. They have no legal issues with nintendo shutting them down constantly, and they have a centralized group of people who control all of these different issues that could arise like controller legality, custom stages, etc... In melee, it is nearly impossible to enforce anything, cuz no one person has any more authority than another person to enforce something (beside for T.O's, except that every T.O is different and might have different rulesets then another T.O if they disagree on an issue), and it would help if there was sort of way that the entire smash community could meet together and vote on certain issues, but that doesn't really exist. In Rivals, the devs decide what goes down, and therefore, these kinds of issues are sorted out in a clean and easy way. i know that this is a pretty big thing to ask for, but it would be cool if the smash community either moved to rivals, or a near exact replica of melee was created, but still different enough that there wouldn't be legal issues involving nintendo, and there was some sort of authoritative body that could decide on these big issues. Overall I loved the podcast, and it was really interesting to think about these kinds of issues, and hearing a lot of different perspectives on the issue. Keep up the great work.
The fact that it’s 100% community ran is what makes melee great and imo the reason melee is still a thing 20 years on. Acting like developer ran communities aren’t shit shows is ridiculous. I’m not familiar with RoA but just look at SFV, Tekken, Ultimate etc. We are way better off sorting these things out for ourselves.
@@Laxhax123 , I completely agree one of melee’s biggest assets is that it is community ran, because it gives it so much freedom, but that doesn’t mean that it has no setbacks. As for those other fighting games controlled by a company, these other games devs are in it for the money, and don’t really care about competitive integrity, or what will really make the game objectively better. RoA devs really care about competitive integrity, and their competitive players, more so then making some money. I did say that it would be great if their was some sort of official way that melee players could vote on certain issues that arise, or we could give that responsibility to a set few people in the community, like blur, and anyone else out their who is interested in that kind of thing. but it’s really hard to take care of these issues that the game has, when the community seemingly doesn’t really give a shit, and they don’t care enough to think about it, and develop an opinion. The average player is like zhu, and doesn’t give a shit about most of these issues. Even though it could completely destroy all competitive integrity of the game, and slowly burn melee to the ground, most people just don’t give a shit. That is why we need some sort of body of people, who we know love and care about the game to decide on these things
@@Laxhax123 Things which are community ran can only work if the community is interested in fixing the communities issues. If most people in the community have zhu's attitude of "I don't really care about these issues because they don't really affect my playing experience", then our community ran game will burn to the ground. So we have a few options from here. We can have some sort of way to get every person in the communities opinion on these issues, and get a vote and those people who are not interested in thinking about these issues can give over that right of voting to other people in the community like blur or other figures who really care about these issues. or every person can relinquish their right to vote on these issues, and we can just let a select few people in the community to vote on these issues, or, as a last resort, everyone can move to rivals. I think the reason why this hasn't happened in the past, is because in the past people were a lot more passionate about the game, and therefore we could leave these issues to be figured out by the community, but it just seems like nowadays, most people in the community just wanna play slippi, and don't really care about anything beyond that, even if some of these issues could be extremely detrimental to the competitive scene.
blurs argument is we shouldn't change things. many people have hand problems, me included, from playing a game that we all love. the Gamecube controller is an ergonomic nightmare. How many people need to get arthritis and tendinitis from this game before we let people play with a better controller, that doesn't break hands. not to mention that even with ucf things like pivots ledgedashs and even shield drops something that should be fixed with ucf are all controller specific. Hax was right with the Arduinos, I thought that day one things like perfect wavedashes and firefox notches should be a feature of a good controller for melee. I am tired of this conversation. people who talk about it are not top players. I am tired of reactionary takes when it comes to digital controllers. Think for two minutes about it. You can make a digital controller for less than you can buy a good gcc with notches and snapback mods thanks to Crane. Digital controllers are the future. Blur stay in the past its okay. get bodied by some 14 year old with a B0XX. I will watch with a smile on my face.
