DCS World - MiG-19 vs A-6 - Did American Intruders Violate Chinese Airspace? Vietnam 1967. 

Exactly. I used it for a little play on word in the title :)

@@showtime112 you should have titled it: American A-6 Intrude Chinese airspace

Thank you for your comment! It doesn't matter that this info is mentioned in the video, it's not bad to have it written here as well. Plus, every comment is good for the YT algorithm 😁

Un argentino bien informado sobre la guerra aerea en Vietnam................somos pocos.

@@alejandrocasalegno1657 Muchas gracias!

@@Elrusoargentino You are welcome.

I know its old, but I would like to say that I'm thankful for aviation and or military enthusiasts from any country!

Yeah, it's funny how these things can change. Yesterday's allies, tomorrow's enemies and vice versa.

@@showtime112 true the world is a strange place, even strange to the Vietnamese lack of acknowledgment of Chinese cooperation with them during the War sheltering, training pilots, repairing Migs, manned SA2 sites, AAA Guns and partake in Air Combat over Vietnam, I guess it part of the Communist system of Vietnam rewritten history to fit there own agenda against the Chinese who are there mortal enemy.

Vietnam ,bunch of treators

Good, China's the world's enemy

What a curious irony. 😕

Thanks! The choice of topics is often dictated by available modules in DCS :) But despite that, I like to dig into lesser known areas of history.

It does not count as a kill when you attack an opponent who has no chance against you. What it is is dishonorable

@@matthewcaughey8898 In that case, most kills from the history of aerial warfare wouldn't count. Vast majority were scored using the element of surprise and very often, the winners were superior to their victims in many aspects. 'Honor' doesn't count. And it's a very relative term anyway. Growling Sidewinder style of dogfights, 1 vs 1, no initial advantage and 'fair', almost never happened in real life.

Thanks for the comment! It seems like one of those things where we will never know for sure. Both versions seem to have some strong agreements.

@@showtime112 I've read accounts of GI's finding Chinese bodies after a firefight. The Chinese and Russians were there: it was a known.

That is unlikely. Vietnam and China are traditionally enemies. This was post Sino-Soviet split and Vietnam had close ties with the Soviets and suspicion towards the Chinese, even though pre 1972 they had a shared enemy in the US. China did not want North Vietnam to win; they wanted a stalemate to keep both the US and North Vietnam busy.

That's why must never send American boys to Asian mainland, then or ever again.

@@RsRj-qd2cg You are very wrong. There are many photographs during Vietnam war showing Gen. Giap planning attacks with Chinese military advisors. Many weapons used by Vietcong and north Vietnamese army were from China.

You are right. Life makes better screenplays than fiction!

Thanks for the comment! I'm going to let you in on a little secret, the next video is going to be set in Vietnam as well :)

@@showtime112 👏👏👏👏👏

Thank you very much for your positive comment. I'll keep doing my best.

Thank you very much. I suppose that A-6s did try to get low but they were overwhelmed so that didn't work. CAP is not mentioned anywhere. My guess is that there was some CAP not too far but they were probably ready to intervene in case of VPAF fighter activity. They probably didn't expect Chinese fighter activity instead.

@@showtime112 that makes sense, but I learned the Fog of war is to expect the unexpected.

Thanks for the comment. I basically make videos that I would like to watch myself. Some channels do very hard core full missions cockpit only videos. That might be fine for some people. And also, they are a lot easier to make. You just press record in the beginning and stop record in the end. Not much editing.

Thanks for the comment! I think the skin used here is not historically correct but there were just a few available. About future A-6 videos, this will probably wait a while. Here, a mod was used which I'm not sure is being developed any further. But a proper high fidelity module is on the way which will open many options (but it will take a while until the release). It will be A-6E which makes it more suitable for Desert Storm and 1980s operations though.

Thank you very much for your comment!

That's what everybody seem to agree upon. Thanks for commenting!

And I'm glad that you are still enjoying those videos! Thanks for such a great feedback!

Thank you very much, your support is appreciated!

Thanks for contributing there details!

Thanks for the comment. It's hardly a surprise, there was no GPS, mostly not even INS. The stress of combat, bad weather.... who could really tell where they were at any given moment.

@4one14 Something like that. But it seems that you need to have CAPs positioned and ready because intrusions usually don't last very long.

Thank you, glad you liked it!

Thank you for your comment, more is coming!

Thank you for your comment, I'm glad you liked the videos! I sure will continue. As for the subs, I guess my audience doesn't like to subscribe. I get about 90% of views from non subscribers. I sometimes run into channels with five times as many subs but with much less views per video so I can't complain :)

Thank you for your comment and suggestion. I will cover the Falklands War of 1982 but it will wait until the proper map is released for DCS. Seems it could happen this year so I think it's worth the wait.

I think they had some camo skins even though most of them were bare metal. Here, they are included mostly to differentiate a little. As for the missiles, Bob Flynn clearly states that his aircraft was hit by a missile so I went with that.

Thanks! I usually end the videos with landing but sometimes skip it. Most viewers are gone by then anyway 😁

Some suggest that the Marianas Map is a test project for them and it might be used to later develop Vietnam. Let's hope they are right :) The next video will also be placed in the Vietnam conflict although it's not what most might expect. You are right about the four seat version of the Intruder called Prowler, someone also made a mod for DCS (AI only).

I agree with you, but such a map would be somewhat of a waste unless they complement it with the aircraft of the period. 😉 And I don't mean AI, but "real" flyable modules! Two weeks, I guess it'll take... 😁🤭 Cheers!

​@@PappaBear_yt There are some DCS modules that will fit in that time period like for instance! MIG-21, MIG-19S (Shenyang J-6) "Farmer" F-5E Tiger II, and the Bell UH-1H Huey. The older MiG-15s were used only for training purposes. The MiG-19, manufactured in China, did not appear until the last part of the war. It was less manoeuvrable than the MiG-17 and slower than the MiG-21. And there are also a few user mods at the DCS site for downloading like F-104, "A-6E Intruder or the A-4 Skyhawk so that could be seen as a sort of aid to make up the difference. I think it's a fact that DCS lacks a couple of great cold warfighters like the F-4 Phantom, F-8 Vought Crusader the F-100 Super Sabre and the Thud F-105 just talking about the Vietnam era. So you see I think I am not the only one longing for a Vietnam Map.

@@LockOnNow Yup, for sure! If I had a computer strong enough to run DCS, I'd definitely go for the Vietnam war era. It had the most iconic aircraft, IMO.

Glad you liked it Thanks for the comment!

@@showtime112 pardon my friend

Quite possibly. Fact that during Vietnam it wasn't used the way it really should have been used didn't help. I think that only during Desert Storm it showed its full potential. I read some quote that it was the only really useful USN plane in that conflict.

Thanks for your suggestion. For the first mission, we lack available assets in DCS. The second one is probably doable, I'll look it up.

It's not specifically mentioned in the sources I found, but there were probably some fighters in the area. It's just that they were likely focused on VPAF and not the Chinese.

I was experimenting with reshade filters a bit. There are a few cool ones if you know how to use them.

They could have theoretically escaped but in this case, there were probably too many Chinese fighters for that.

@@showtime112 Just from an overall stand point, a Ground Attack Craft should have the ability to Defend itself, in my opinion.

@@TheKid9678 Probably. But even if they had missiles and guns, what could they have done against three times as many fighters?

From the outset, the Intruder was going to be the Navy's 24/7 all weather bomber, with a max bomb load of 16,000 pounds. No provision was ever made for defensive armament except for electronic countermeasures

@@donaldtireman I think A-6 was designed either for night/bad weather strikes where enemy fighter opposition was unlikely, or to be escorted by friendly fighters.

Thanks for the comment! A-6 was used here as AI asset, they were programmed to attack a location and then to avoid fighters. It is flyable but I haven't tested it yet.

Thank you for contributing with that info!

@@showtime112 How do you know if the first A-6 were shot by a missile and the second by guns.

@@jasonshuster4748 Bob Flynn describes that his airplane was hit by a missile in an interview. Link is in the video description.

@@showtime112 Ok thank you

Another thing there were low clouds and thunder storms and that could be the reason they strayed into China.

Essentially, that's true. Outnumbered by a bunch of fighters, their chances were indeed very slim.

@@showtime112 it damn sure didn't help that the A-6 Intruder never had anything to defend itself with

What about the manouverability of the A-6? Would it have been unable to avoid relatively primitive missiles even if the pilot had been trained to do so?

@@onkelmicke9670 I'm not sure if A-6 is particularly maneuverable. Maybe for a bomber. There were at least six MiGs so keeping track of all of them must have been hard, especially from an airplane that doesn't have good rearwards visibility. I suppose you could evade one of these missiles if you spotted it as soon as it was launched. But they have such short range that it's only a few seconds of flight. Easy to miss.

@@showtime112 the Phantom was never much of a twisty-turny hot rod but compared to that, the Intruder was a flying bus. It was big, slow, heavy and completely defenseless if a mig showed up and there weren't any Phantoms nearby.

Thanks for sharing your experience!

Thanks! A-6 is flyable. I think it even has an external flight model. Needs a lot more work though but it's useful to me even in this condition.

@@showtime112 Cool! Hey, as an idea: could you make a series of short videos presenting unofficial mods (3-5 minutes long) in the future? I believe many viewers would like that. 😉

@@PappaBear_yt I would like that but the Reapers have pretty much covered these mods in similar videos already. I probably wouldn't have too much to add.

@@showtime112 As much as I like Reapers, Cap is too energetic for me most of the time. 🤭😁 Also, your personal opinion on modules could shine some new light on the mods. Anyways, it's just an idea. Cheers and stay cool! 😎👍🏻

@@PappaBear_yt Now you got me thinking 🤔 Might try a video or two to see how they are received. Shouldn't be too complicated to produce.

I started liking it after flying it in DCS. It was quickly overshadowed by better performing MiG-21 but there's probably some reason while the Chinese kept producing it for so long, despite having access to MIG-21 as well.

People like to place historical events relative to their birth. It's kinda interesting.

That is very likely.

If F-4s didn't scare Vietnamese from engaging them, I doubt it would change anything for Chinese also.

@@TheGranicd One major difference there, North Vietnamese pilots knew that bombers were going to drop bombs on their country so they were probably very much motivated to stop them. In the Chinese case, it was just a minor (if any) airspace violation.

@@TheGranicd Actually, The vietcong had a small amount of MiG21s and were shit scared of using them, so only sent them up to fight out bombers. In operation Bolo, F4s acted liked bombers in regards to speed and altitude. And the numbers don't lie, we almost destroyed their airforce in an air battle that day. So if we shit all over MiG 21s all war, then chinese MiG19s and MiG21s would get the memo. They would think twice, bud.

Thank you very much!

Well, guns take up space and weight. And even if it had them, what would be the odds of actuallly getting in position to hit an enemy fighter with them? It was primarily a night / bad weather bomber where the elements would provide protection. Of course, no tactics always works.

@@showtime112 Wouldn't an F4 Phantom have been a better choice? At least it could have defended itself better. Or give the Intruders fighter protection escort.

@@JorgeSanchez-oh4uy You can't keep all the attack aircraft on the carrier just because there's a slight chance they might be intercepted. A-6 was an incredibly capable and precise bomber for its time. Perhaps in Vietnam, it wasn't always used optimally.

The only defence was against the SA2,some A6 carried a jammer pod.The pod was self powered by a small propeller on its nose.I remember old photos with that setup but it may not have been common because a downed aircraft in enemy territory would give the game away.

@@eugeneoreilly9356 that would be the EA6A. A variant

Hvala! To je raketa R-3S (varijanta rakete K-13) koju je također nosio i MiG-21. Domet nekih 3 - 3,5 km

Actually, they could have outmaneuvered 19s or 21s if there weren't so many. There usually was some CAP but they must have covered VPAF air bases, not the Chinese patrols.

That might be true but Bob Flynn very specifically says his aircraft was hit by a missile.

@@showtime112 If the pilot say this, can be true of course, but at the time was a big surprise a AAM armed J-6.

I'm not sure exactly what colors the Chinese MIGs had. Most likely, they were all silver. But these various schemes were used to distinguish between them since there were quite a few. There were other incidents similar to this one, true.

True. Just like F-111 or Su-24.

Didn't notice that before but yes, you've got a point there.

Thanks for the comment. I make videos from all points of view. Those from 'the other side' always seem to be more popular. Maybe because it's a rare thing as you say.

Thanks for agreeing :)

@@showtime112 Read the article on it. Looks like a stretched MiG-17, sort of. North Vietnamese pilots hated the plane's short legs, but American test pilots praised its high agility. The F/J-6 can at least carry AAMs. In Nam MiG-19s scored nine kills, all with guns, and one got shot down by Phil Handley, The Fastest Shot In The (South)East!

It looks wrong but that is actually how it is in the real cockpit. Who knows why :)

I am very happy to hear it, thanks!

That's the way they did it. No idea why :)

@@showtime112 Goodness...that will topple my gyro in seconds after looking at the inverse picture for 20 000hrs.

@@hendrikvogel3019 thats how Soviet/Russian planes are built. I guess the Americans & Europeans have like a small plane that moves relative to the horizon to indicate the bank angle of the plane. Instead, the Russian planes had the horizon move.

Thanks a lot, glad you liked it!

They carried R-3S which is an equivalent of AIM-9B i believe.

RS-2US was only used on the 19PM, not sure if the J-6 had an equivalent modification. I believe the vast majority of J-6s were MiG-19S equivalents, though they did have a 19P equivalent and even developed some variants of their own.

@@rossmum Thank you for the additional information!

forums.eagle.ru/topic/266970-a-6-intruder-mod-by-corsaircat/ It's a community mod, so far pretty much WIP. Hopefully they will develop it further.

Perhaps it was more 'enemy of my enemy' in the beginning :)

A-6 wasn't designed for air-to-air at all. In fact, it was mostly meant for night/bad weather strikes where interceptors would have hard time finding them.

There was a viewer who argued with me that MiG-17 was 'supersonic' because there were cases where they were tracked doing more than Mach 1 in a level flight. But MiG-19 was the first true supersonic Soviet fighter and that's a fact.

Bob Flynn said in an interview that his plane was hit by a missile so I chose that version.

Bob Flynn says in an interview that his airplane was hit by a missile. Chinese might have had the ability to use the missiles. They were the ones who actually got the famous Sidewinder used to make R-13s.

China was making a copy of the Russian R-3S missile at the time which was called the PL-2 and these were used on both the MiG-19 (J-6) and MiG-21 (J-7).

@@Kay-51995 North Vietnamese J-6s didn't carry missiles until '74 for some reason but Chinese apparently had them.

@@showtime112 If I recall correctly the Vietnamese ones were primarily the MiG-19S (J-6C) which was a daytime fighter with no radar but had an extra cannon under the nose and that variant traditionally didn't carry missiles although they could be fitted.

I don't think the Soviets ever fitted missiles to the S. The P got R-3S as a later update, but I think the S was more or less out of Soviet service by the time that came about.

God bless them and praying God will keep them Safe

If I remember well, the skin is not historically correct but only a few skins are available.

@@showtime112 I understand, my father told me about this mission and how they lost some a6s over North Vietnam when he returned from Yankee Station...

There's just a simple mod available in DCS. A proper high-fidelity module is being developed but it will take a while until it'd released.

What Russian words? Under the cockpit there's only 'jet intake', 'rescue' and 'Lt Jake Grafton, Cool Hand'.

The aircraft he's flying himself in this video is the MiG-19/J-6, not the A-6.

Well, it kinda does because it implicates another country and a rather important one.

@@showtime112 I agree, I'm just making the point that the usa was already violating vietnamese airspace prior. I agree that it does matter but not to the usa.

The tide began to turn against the MIGs when the US began operating an early warning and control radar station in NE Thailand.Think that operation was codename teabag but open to correction.

Generally, A-6 was supposed to attack at night or bad weather which makes interception hard.

Some of those kills by Thuds are definitely on my 'to do' list!

Yeah. As far as I can tell, fighter cover often didn't fly close to the strikers.

I know they are called J-6 in China but this is a direct copy of the MiG-19 with very few modifications. So, it is essentially MiG-19 and that's what matters the most. As for that second part, maybe by 'john' you mean 'join'. Video doesn't say that Chinese pilots joined the war. They intercepted a pair of American aircraft taking part in the Vietnam War who may have entered Chinese airspace.

Keep it up!

You can find the download link here: forums.eagle.ru/topic/266970-a-6-intruder-mod-by-corsaircat/ It's still very much WIP but hopefully, they continue developing it.

With the benefit of hindsight, that seems correct.

Well, such an act probably wouldn't have been very smart. It is extremely unlikely that it would have simply resulted in Chinese returning Lt Flynn. Instead, it would have initiated an open war with China. US was launching alpha strikes against North Vietnam all the time, didn't help much.

thats how you start ww3

@@junglistmassiv at that point China had no nuclear weapons, their army was largely conscripts, and they had very little in overall armor or naval assets. The only reason we didn’t let MacArthur go straight to Peking was the Soviets and the fact that we fell for their boast of more missiles

@@showtime112 China in 1967 while well armed was nothing close to the nightmare it is today. They had virtually no nuclear capacity. The Sino Soviet split had occurred and the Soviet Union was probably not concerned with China at that point. Really if we had acted aggressively I think our relationship with China might have been less adversarial. They would have learned then just how far America would go to get what we wanted. Among the other better things that might have happened is it would have made China off limits for our companies to go there and layoff workers here. Bit of a stretch but I think had we given the Chinese a bloody nose back then they might take us a bit more seriously

@@matthewcaughey8898 China's first atomic bomb test happened 3 years earlier and its first hydrogen bomb test had happened two months earlier. While technologically inferior and no longer friendly with the Soviets, bringing China into the war directly would've been a huge problem on the ground (as it had been in Korea) and the threat of wider war was sensibly seen and avoided by the people whose job it was to do military strategy, not randoms on RU-vid. As it is, about a decade later the US began courting China and leveraged it against the USSR, which proved enormously beneficial to the Chinese and at least in theory, benefited the US. Of course, they bet on the wrong horse, and are now paying for it. I also severely doubt that attacking a Chinese airfield in retaliation for something China was technically within its rights to do, considering this happened in its own airspace, would have any effect on US companies deciding to offshore jobs to avoid labour costs. Jobs didn't just go to China, they went to other southeast Asian countries which the US was and still is friendly with, and they're still going there. A single border violation incident in the Vietnam War hardly has anything to do with corporations looking to trim expenses and boost profit margins by offshoring nearly half a century later.