Did Vatican II create the New Mass? 

I think part of it was marketing, i.e. how do we get more souls into the church. It was an obvious failure, that is why I think no one can or wants to explain who , why or how it went south. They are still trying to sell this debacle in the " in was not implemented correctly " , look up sunk cost fallacy that will help explain why this failure is still being sold.

My understanding was to make the Mass more attractive to protestants. But you don't need to have a theology degree to know that is an improper way to view the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass.

Imo, what happened at V2 the catalyst for many loosing the true faith. Those evil men God will hold accountable. This is all in the name of working out our salvation with fear and trembling. Do a word search. The leaders who led the sheep astray will pay a heavy price.

The protestant needs to learn the true faith and it's not what Luther, Calvin or zwingly proposed. The truth is all in the Holy Scriptures. Pray the Holy Spirit lifts the veil

​@@joan8862They were being lead by "the enemies of God and all mankind." Check your Holy Bible for their identity.

My hunch is that the irreverent Mass came first, and the sloppy sixties were a direct fallout of the Church's light growing dimmer.

Yeah but BUGNINI the masonic infiltrator whose mission was to destroy the Church from the inside LIED to BOTH the Pope & the synodal councils so they were BOTH acting as if everyone was in agreement with Bugnini & the Vat2 DIALECTIC that he was ushering into existence >>> when that is a falsehood... it is only after the 70 years of rot that NOW all of a sudden everyone wants to actually listen to the synodal councils bcuz the Church has been entirely infiltrated so instead of the voices of the Faithful that were LIED about by Bugnini you now have an echo chamber >>> that is the reason there is now the push for the democratization of the Church however these really are not synods are they- they are in fact SOVIETS... so the masonic plan continues under the impostor pope & I would go into greater depth but comments are being censored on YT surrounding the perversion of the Church under the "modernists"!

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All the Vatican 2 catholics say it's too confusing, I don't understand, it's confusing ! Or the mass is enough, no, it's not enough. You must have the true Catholic faith. There is nothing confusing about it !!! Pope Gregory the 16th 1831 let nothing of the truths that have been defined, it be lessened, nothing altered nothing added, but let them be preserved intact in the word and then meaning. Vatican Council of 1870 session 3 chapter 4 part 13 and 14 EX cathedra -- for the doctrine of the faith which God has revealed is put forward not as some philosophical Discovery capable of being perfected by human intelligence but as a Divine deposit committed to the spouse of Christ to be Faithfully protected and infallibly promulgated hence to that meaning of the sacred dogmas is ever to be maintained which has once been declared by holy mother church and there must never be any abandonment of this sense under the pretext or in the name of a more profound understanding. Pope Pius the 10th syllabus condemning the errors of the modernists 1907 article 62 : the proposition the chief articles of the Apostles Creed did not have the same sense for the Christians of the first stages as they have for the Christians of our time is hereby condemned as erroneous. St John of the Cross 1591 wherefore if there be revealed to us anything new or different we must in no way give consent to it not even though it were spoken by an Angel. St. Thomas Aquinas doctor of the church 1274 all those who deny one Article of Faith regardless of their reason are by that very fact excommunicated. Pope Eugene the fourth Council of Florence Session 8 1439 ex cathedra whoever Wills to be saved before all things it is necessary that he holds the Catholic faith unless a person keeps this Faith whole and undefiled without doubt He Shall Perish eternally. Popplio 13th 1896 the practice of the church has always been the same as is shown by the unanimous teaching of the fathers who were want to hold as outside Catholic communion and alien to the church whoever would recede in the least degree from any point of Doctrine proposed by her authoritative magisterium. Council Florence session 11 February 4th 1442 ex cathedra the Holy Roman Church condemns reproves anathematize has and declares to be outside the body of church which is the Catholic Church whoever holds opposing or contrary views. Popplio the 10th 5th lateran Council session 8th 1513 EX cathedra and since truth cannot conjure the truth we Define that every statement contrary to the enlightened truth of the faith is totally false and we strictly forbid teaching otherwise to be permitted we decree that all those who cling to erroneous statements of this time this sewing heresies which are wholly condemned should be avoided in every way and punished as detestable and odious Heretics and infidels who are undermining the Catholic faith. Saint Athanasius God's word is one and the same in the doors forever unchanged always the same Pope Pius the 9th, qui Pluribus I'm faith and religion November 9th 1846 paragraph 20 never cease to instruct all men in it never tolerating and letting pass anyting which could in the slightest degree defiled the purity of this faith. What the same great strength of Mind Foster and all men their Unity with the Catholic church outside of which there is no salvation Pope Saints sixtus 3 nothing new is to be allowed for nothing can be added to the old look for the faith of the elders and do not let our faith be disturbed by a mixture of new doctrines St Vincent of Lerins 445, all novelty in faith is ashore Mark of heresy Saint Paul Cried Out aloud again and again to all men to all times and to all places that if anyone announces a new doctrine let him be anathematized. If there is a change YOU ARE NOT TO SUPPORT IT OR embrace it IN ANY WAY !!! There is no confusion unless you're a heretic and belong to the vatican 2 fake church, there is no confusion for true Catholics, I'll say that again there is no confusion for the true Catholics the teachings of the church are simple and clear. Nothing is to be changed !!!!! Nothing !! If you disagree with this your excommunicated from the church you no longer are Catholic you no longer have a father in Heaven !!!

Except they did

It seems they had no idea what they were actually voting for. Fr. Hesse said that most of them never read the bulky documents.

​@@kevinrhatigan5656+JMJ. When did the Council reconvene for that vote?

Good question! I LOVE that font!

"what needs to be settled is this: Is the Missal of Pope St Paul VI's understanding of the Second Vatican Council's work called to meet the needs and opportunities of those long-ago times in the mid-Twentieth Century worth the effort of making it work, all in the quaintly timeless Roman manner ......" In short, no, but I suspect you may know that; the evidence is already in. The Novus Ordo will continue to atrophy and whither away, despite all the "new springtimes" that have proven to be desolate winters. The Mass of the Ages will continue its ascension because demographics are not on the side of the modernists. You may be in a better position than me to judge Mr. Davies, but he remains a giant to those of us who want to better understand the ungodly revolution that shook the Church in the 1960-70s.

No. It’s a new liturgy, not a new sacrifice. There is only one sacrifice. It’s re-presented at every mass.

No question, in fact he may be elevated as a Doctor of the church.

I hope and believe so , for now we are in the difficult times that others will write about.

Oh yes. Thanks to Archbishop Marcel Lefebvre, the Traditional Latin Mass and the authentic teachings, Dogmas and Doctrines of the Catholic church have been safeguarded and will spread even more now...Deo gratias for Archbishop Marcel Lefebvre.

One of the techniques of gnosticism is to write in an ambiguous way so that poorly defined words can be utilized later as the writer wishes

Weaponized ambiguity

Have you read the VII documents so you know what it is you're trashing?

@@crushtheserpentyes we will be trashing: “Men have the right to religious liberty” “Jews are not to be presented as rejected or condemned” “The church of Christ ‘subsists’ in the Catholic Church” “It’s beneficial to pray with non Catholics”

Not really. If you want to address root causes, then that conspiracy is the root cause. Obviously a myriad of other people's intentions, decades of history, ambiguity, and confusion, and a collection of other agendas followed, but without the root conspiracy none of those other things could have occurred 😢

@@stevedoetsch So nothing to do with the fact the late 60's were a time of radical change across the board? (I mean radical!) Nothing to do with the media presenting the Council to the public as something it wasn't? Nothing to do with liberal theologians with big egos wanting to push their own agenda? I know conspiracies happen. But they need facts to support them. The only meetings we know of that held significant sway on the Council were the German contingent, of which the young Joseph Ratzinger was a big part. They were a mix of liberal and conservative voices that all agreed they wanted change. They would be accused of conspiring but that is stretching the word. They would later part ways as it became clear they weren't all on the same page after all. If you have proof of any other conspiratorial meetings I would be eager to hear about it. Otherwise it's just conjecture at best or calumny at worst.

Except it's not.

@@Lcoch2482 Anyone who adheres to the conspiracy theory version of what went wrong, post- VII needs to answer these questions. Why did the 2250 (approx.) bishops vote overwhelmingly in favour of the VII documents? These are the vote counts of the four main ‘Constitutions’ Dei Verbum - 99.7 % Lumen Gentium - 99.7% Sacrosanctum Concilium (on the liturgy) - 99.8% and the highest vote count of all 16 VII documents Gaudium et Spes - 96.9% How did the modernist conspiracy manage to convince all those bishops to approve the Council so unanimously? And in relation to the New Mass, this was approved by Pope Paul VI. To claim he was part of a conspiracy doesn’t fit the facts. As pointed out in the above video he made Ratzinger a cardinal after he was very critical of the New Mass. He published Humanae Vitae which was about as anti-modernist a move one could make! He was very devoted to Our Lady and even gave her a title during VII (Mother of the Church) after the almost unanimous agreement he shouldn’t. In 1969, he made a very impassioned speech about the beauty of the Latin language and what a sacrifice it would be to lose it. He explains clearly that he believed the “understanding of prayer is worth more than the silken garments in which it is totally dressed”. He truly believed the vernacular was a necessary step to take for participation in the Mass. He may have been wrong about that, but he has made clear his motives. As for Lercano and Bugnini, one doesn’t need to ascribe a conspiracy to explain what happened. Even if it’s true Bugnini was a mason, there is no evidence he was part of a greater plot to destroy the Church via the New Mass. There are plenty of other reasons why things went south for the Church after VII. We don’t need to look for hidden motives and meetings in smoky rooms.

Return to ortodoxy

The mass is Crists none bloody sacrfice at the cross and pleses God. It is obuis in TLM. You described a N. O. mass and yes it is hard to finde the true meaning in it. Thise is exacly why it is inferior to TLM. (among other things)

Don't forget the collection plates , there's still many victims to be compensated

Gotta have Dan Schutte. I think it’s a requirement like top 40 radio stations, gotta play so many Dan Schutte songs per hour.

Not in a TLM parish we don't leave the Ape of the Church behind ... Return To Tradition

Vaticancatholic is sedevacantist, terrible source

Far from it.TLM is a sacrifice. Novus Ordo is a Communal Meal.

@@nathaniellathy6559 Why would you say that? The priest mentions "this sacrifice" prior to the Co secretion.

@sissybrooks8588 facing the people food and 🍸.Eucharistic ministers. Communion in hand. Adds up to Communal Meal. Canon is best said silent.

@nathaniellathy6559 The early Liturgies were all completely sung by the priest and congregation. They are much more beautiful than any Latin Rite Mass, bar none. I don't know where you come up with such an authoritative statement t as that. Many NO have Cimmu ion on the tongue for those who desire it. I agree about facing the people, but that does not change the validity of the Mass. What you are describing are prejudices regarding your personal tastes. Ok, fine. But to say all other Liturgies amount to a different religion is rather infantile, begging your pardon.

@sissybrooks8588 insulting someone doesn't make you right. Council of Trent said Novus Ordo should never have happened. So did Ottaviani Intervention. Even a committee recommended against the change. Decline in Church attendance, Catholic Schools, families and belief in real presence speaks for itself. All done for One World 🌎 Religion

Available online: Chiesa Viva (Year XL, N° 430, Sept 2010) in-depth research on the real JPII, by Fr. Luigi Villa, PhD. This Special Issue is titled "Karol Wojtyla Beatified? ...Never!

So why is he a canonized Saint?

​@@kevinrhatigan5656Why are nearly all the post Vatican ll popes canonized ? Considering that heroic Giants of holiness and tradition have been ignored , Popes Leo XIII , Plus XI and Pius Xll, Benedict XV , something is rotten on the inside , personally I don't accept any post Vatican ll canonizations of these popes.

Might be a very powerful way to promote like-minded ideologists of the New Theology and Modernism. JPII abolished the rigorous "devil's advocate" phase of the Church's canonization process, making it much easier and faster to churn out saints. Why was Mother Teresa canonized so fast, when she was openly proud of the fact that she never mentioned Jesus to the people she "served." If she had preached the Gospel Truth like our courageous cancelled bishops and priests, would she have received the Nobel Prize?! @@kevinrhatigan5656

@@bernardcassidy6497 canonizations are infallible, if you don't accept them you're in dissent.

I am a Byzantine Rite catholic, so pur Divine Liturgy is said in the vernacular, or in Greek or church Slavonic. So I have no horse in this game, BUT.... the use of Latin isn't what bothers traditionalists(of which I would classify myself, vs a modernist) it's the changing of form of an Apostolic tradition. The Latin Mass in its current form goes back to the Patristic Era around 450ish ad. That Liturgy grew put of the Greek and Syriac liturgies and anaphoras, but still being unique in its own Rite. The Liturgy is where the faith is taught, where we learn how to live, what and how to believe, and who we serve. The NO is the ONLY Liturgy in the entire catholic church, of which there is over 24, that does have apostolic origins. It was written from scratch in the 60s, and only retains about 6% of the prayers and Rites from the ancient Liturgy. Now aside from that, look at the fruits of this NEW mass- the buildings are hideous, the "music" is secular and ugly, there is no consistency as there are HUNDREDS of different versions with all of the options, it glorifies the priest instead of Christ, it gives the Tabernacle and orders the mass towards the people instead of God. Looking in from the outside, it just doesn't seem like this church grew from the old, it's like it's a new church. If my grandparents were to come back today, I don't think they would recognize this mass as catholic as it looks much more like a Lutheran service with the Cranmer "table" instead of an alter.

@@paulthomas955 Again, obedience to Peter, is Obedience to Jesus Christ! Even the most simple Mass of the imprisoned Cardinal Nguyen Van Thuan, for his faith in Jesus Christ, is just as valid and beautiful, and pleasing to God, as the Traditional Latin Mass. Every Mass approved by Rome, is valid and sacrificial! Again, unfortunately, many Catholic Christians claim the Latin Mass is the only valid Mass, which of course would then exclude the Last Supper, also not said in Latin!! No, the NO does not glorify the Priest! That is simply a made up complaint by the TLM only lovers! Peace always in Jesus Christ our Great and Kind God and Savior, He whose Flesh is true food and Blood true drink

You’re taking that out of context. So I literally don’t know if any Catholics who claim “only” there have been Catholics who say that for the Roman rite. Because they compare a Latin mass to a noves ordo and that’s the only mass from the Roman rite that was celebrated now. Latin or noves ordo. Now as for when you bring up earlier masses. I would argue they Still fall in line with tradition unlike the noves ordo.

@@chrisarmon1002 most inaccurate, for many of my friends, as well as many other Catholic Christians, ( there are many websites and groups), who claim the Latin Mass is the only valid Mass, which of course would then exclude the Last Supper, also not said in Latin! Again, any Mass approved by Rome is valid! Obedience to Peter, is Obedience to Jesus Christ! Peace always in Jesus Christ our Great and Kind God and Savior, He whose Flesh is true food and Blood true drink

@@matthewbroderick6287 I’ll try and make it more clear. 1. The context is when someone says that does not reject other masses such as chaldean. Byzantine, ect ect because they’re valid and no one rejects they. 2. Now when they say that they will refer ti Latin mass vs noves ordo. ( please do ask anyone who says that. If they reject any other rite. 3. Wrong it does not exclude last supper because you’re again ignoring the context. So before we go on to the “obey petter” first let’s solve the original claim. 4. Yes obey Peter as the pope need to and they would also have to obey tradition.