What went wrong after Vatican II? Jim Havens and Cameron O'Hearn 

Thank you so much for the wonderful podcast...I was so happy to watch this and, the video of the Mass of the ages. Powerful! I went to the Latin Mass in the 1950 till the 1960's till it ended..I was heart broken with the new Mass..I left for awhile..A good man who has went to the Lord told me their was a tradition Latin Mass in Rapid City, S.D. We drove from NE to this Mass for several years...It was life changing an saved my Catholic faith..You are in my prayers..God Bless you an your family's for this great work you do for the Catholic people who need this beautiful Mass...South Dakota

Thank you much for sharing. I've been very depressed seeing where our Church is going. My wife doesn't want anything to do with the Latin Mass, doesn't want to see the facts. Several times I've got out of a Mass seeing girls dancing in the front of the Altar. I was brought in the novus ordo Nass until then I didn't know that the latin Mass was stil being said. So I felt robed of someone precious.

We are longing for the sacred in our lives

Wow Praise be Jesus Christ now and Forever ✝️🕯🙏

Cameron, if you premiere episode 2 in the evening of the 26th many who love TLM will be at mass. I suggest a different time to make the live audience bigger!!

Harder question to answer would be "what went right"

39:00 "The liturgy does not exaust the entire activity of the church..." Good points after this statement 🙏 "The Mass then, is not a project to be tweaked and altered for evangelistic efforts."

Jim, this is an excellent interview. Thank you to you and your guest.

This was a good interview. I can’t wait for episode 2!!

**We need to pray the rosary together and picket outside the churches!!** NO ONE CAN ABROGATE THE MASS.

Very excited. Thank you!

Unfortunately, I'm in an area of an archdiocese where there's a majority of laymen who prefer the new music and the new rubrics. There's one NO Mass in my area that had a traditional music director for a couple years. It was beautiful. But parishioners complained that the music was a downer, depressing, and whatnot. I don't know how much pressure they put on the priest, or if he was in some amount of agreement, but the music director said he asked her to play some more upbeat, modern music. She refused and resigned. So it's back to the My Little Pony _Gloria_ and all that jazz. There's one parish in the area where the priest celebrates the Tridentine Mass at 8AM on Sundays, and at noon on Holy Days of Obligation. Back when Cardinal Sarah wrote the document suggesting that priests might choose to celebrate the NO ad orientem, this priest broached the idea with his parishioners to do so at least during that Advent Season They encouraged him, and before Advent was over, they asked him to continue to do so for every Mass. Dozens wrote to the Archbishop to say how it had led to growth in their spiritual lives. And then the Archbishop received *ONE* complaint, and it must have been from someone with clout, because he ordered the priest to stop ad orientem and to celebrate the NO ad populum. It was disheartening for the majority of parishioners. The priest appealed to Rome, but they ruled in favor of the Archbishop (and the socially powerful complainers).

25:20 "This guy, Fr Bugnini, such a nefarious character, we should all know who he is, and what he has done."

The Novus Ordo is valid but illicit. My local Novus Ordo was such an abomination with Fr. Fred that I prayed to God and found the SSPX and the Latin Tridentine Mass of my youth.

Thank you for your apostolate!

The problem with the Novus Ordo mass is that the so-called “Unicorn Mass” is targeted by bishops more harshly than the TLM typically is, such as what happened in the diocese of St. Augustine

When is Episode 3 of Mass of the Ages coming to RU-vid?

It's more a case of what went wrong before Vatican ll that allowed what happened to take place.

Oh wow, I asked Fr Chris Alar this question today after hearing his talk on the details of the mass.He explains all the parts but regarding the new mass. I asked him why all the prayers from the latin mass were removed and why the latin and new mass are so different. Also, i totally agree with this guy about the silence of the low mass and being able to pray and feel more connected to Our Lord. Same for me, especially the weekday latin low mass which is my favorite. So peaceful, so quiet and contemplative. Thank God so many attend Sunday mass but its so distracting with all the people. Going to mass on Sunday alone is not enough. weekday mass is when you really start building your love for Jesus.

Nothing went wrong after VCII. This is exactly what the modernists wanted.

I noticed that they had to change the rules to get new saints under the new mass so it will add validity to the new mass and see “it has Saints!”

I first heard about Annibale Bugnini through the website Church Militant some years ago but then sort of forgot about him except that he was not a good cleric. This "Mass of the Ages" film really fleshed out what the motivations and duplicitous actions of Bugnini were and though it was upsetting to hear, it is completely historical and accurate and important to know. Knowing the truth is always important. I now look forward to reading "Annibale Bugnini- Reformer of the Liturgy" by historian Yves Chiron who was referenced in the film to learn even more. Thank you Mr. Havens and Mr. O'Hearn for this great podcast!

The TLM was not broken and should not have been altered.

Good video. ‘ could have been better without the ton of ads.

36:40 National Survey "Let's play out some of the numbers.." 😲

And the servants of the goodman of the house coming said to him: Sir, didst thou not sow good seed in thy field? whence then hath it cockle? And he said to them: An enemy hath done this. (Matt. 13:27-28 DRV)

48:00 "What is your take on Pope Francis's Motu Proprio, 'Traditionis Custodes?'" A good answer.

Well said!!!

4:28 yes, exactly! “Active Participation” in the NO is ridiculous.

With Sadie Lyn below. Absolutely.

I was born in 1950 and lived true Catholicism and the Gorgeous Tridentine Mass for 20 years. The blasphemy of Novus Ordo did not take over our small parish until 1970. I totally disagree that Novus Ordo is valid!! They changed not only the Mass, but the Sacraments and ordination rites as well. It is very doubtful that the “priests” saying these protestant inspired services are actual priests at all!!! Never set foot in a church of a Novus Ordo parish! It is not Catholic. I attend the true Tridentine Mass at a beautiful SSPX parish!!

This is something that I'm struggling with right now trying to figure out is the novus order Mass really valid? I honestly am a little bit skeptical the more I learn. But that also shakes my faith quite a bit. I don't want it easy answer I want the truth

I feel pretty much the same as you @Eileen Murray. Born in '51 and raised in the true Catholic tradition. The Mass in my parish started changing a bit around 1966 with the intro of folk music (I played guitar and sang a couple times but it petered out when my friends backed out), the switch to English (but a straight translation from Latin), and then they started the handshake of peace--gross! My mom and I left around 1968 after more changes to the Canon Laws around abstinence and fasting and whatnot, feeling we'd been abandoned and lied to by the Church. Mom went back after about 20 years but I stayed out for 50 years, having gone deep into Eastern spirituality and occult practices. Finally God woke me up and brought me back to His True Church but what do I find? One abomination after another! I had no clue the Mass had been so changed. It was unrecognizable to me. I appreciated the NO Mass because it was there and available for me to come back and made the transition a little easier maybe, but now my heart and soul are crying out for deeper holiness and reverence, which I'm not finding in my parish. I truly love my pastor and appreciate his kindness and compassion in helping this wretched sinner come back to God. He has been my primary confessor, helping me to understand the faith more fully. But I've found a Latin parish and will start going there a few times a week once my car is repaired. I'm deeply involved in a number of ministries in my current parish, one of which I can't really abandon at this point, so I need to keep going a few days a week there to maintain a good relationship with the pastor. Otherwise I'd quit it entirely. While I honor the Church's position that the NOM is a valid Mass, validity does not equal rightness. As I debated with a recent convert post-RCIA class (one of the ministries in which I am involved), just because receiving the Eucharist in the hand is allowed by the Church, does not make it right. Abortion is legal but doesn't make it right. People don't seem to understand that in an NO parish there are little pieces of Our Lord all over the floor being stomped on mindlessly! And don't get me started on the modesty thing, that went totally out the window! I'm appalled at how men and women alike are dressing. Shorts, tank tops, flipflops, dresses barely covering a young girl's hoo-hoo, leggings without a skirt or tunic top to cover their bums. Our Lord suffers greatly because of this lack of reverence; our Blessed Mother weeps for our sinfulness. It all breaks my heart. God have mercy on us!

BTW: I do not refer to Pope John XXIII, Pope Paul VI, Pope John-Paul II using the title of "Saint." The "pre-Conciliar" process of Canonization was always considered to infallibly guarantee that the person named had, in fact, made it to Paradise. The "post-Conciliar" Canonization process, established by Pope Paul VI himself, can only guarantee that "We think he was a nice guy!"

Can the TLM be said in the local vernacular of the people.

What went wrong after Vatican ONE you mean, V1 gave an autocratic power to a single person to change the church in their image

Latin was the common language of the early church. Is that not why Latin became the representation of the holy Church as it spread to other parts of the world? How did Latin become the "holy" language? As a convert this controversy is confusing and concerning.

Vatican II advertised itself as a PASTORAL council. Deviating from that purpose was the opening of the Pandora's box...

Return the sacred to the arts. Latin is our liturgical language , Roman culture is the clothes the church wears , I am a ROMAN CATHOLIC , Deus vult Pax Domini.

What do you do when your spouse looses her temper at you and the kids because of the Mass of the Ages and the prayers? She literally started throwing punches at me because the prayers for conversion on Good Friday! She got a NO priest to back her up! Please pray for her eyes to be opened. This home environment prevents true faith formation with our newly adopted children and refreshing of our own catechism…. I am baffled by my wife’s reaction. Actually, the children are now afraid of my wife! Let’s go back to a pre-1955 liturgy and eliminate the errors leading up to Vatican II.

2018 was the”Summer of Shame,” not 2008.

The problem is if you read Vatican 2 and continuity with all of the other ecumenical councils and documents that came before it there is no continuity there is nothing but ruptured and so nobody's been able to tell me how is it that the new mass is valid I don't understand

💕💖💫🥺🙏🤨

ABL and SSPX was right all along

A lot of Catholics are not aware of the Anglican Ordinariate promulgated by Pope Benedict XVI. I experienced both the ad orientem Novus Ordo and the Ordinariate Mass. Big difference in rubrics. Although not necessarily said in Latin, but is is the closest to the Latin Mass.

Vatican II laid the bases for "The Perfect Storm" and is a substantial element in "what went wrong". Vatican II must be dealt with and (IMHO) completely jettisoned. Ave, Maria!

Pity it took so long for you all to even notice it?✝

it seems it is not valid at the very start if the process has been manipulated and veered away from the official mandate of the sacrosanctum concilium

Cameron said it best: today’s n.o. Mass is NOT the Mass that the Council Fathers had in mind.

Y'all realize that but for the SSPX the traditional mass would have long disappeared from the face of earth. And thanks to their continued efforts it's unlikely that even Francis will be able to stamp it out.

When will Cameron broach "Quo Primum". This is a binding requirement for the church and makes the Novus Ordo a schismatic act per Father Hesse!

It won't play.

It never ceases to baffle me that knowing the wickedness and deceit that went into creating the Novus ordo that seemingly faithful Catholics still want to make sure it’s super Duper clear they think it’s totally fine and valid. God will turn bad situations and evil actions into good outcomes for those who love him - but he does not reside in the evil action itself. As a convert from the protestant faith, I can clearly see the Novus Ordo is not the Christian faith. I don’t know why it’s so hard for cradle Catholics. Ps. Took our family to a Novus Ordo while on vacation and there was no nearby apostolic mass, and our 10-year-old asked when we got in the car after the service “mommy, why did we go to a protestant church today, I thought we weren’t supposed to do that?”

Honestly Cameron, if you can't answer the question about the value of this initiative with regards to spiritual warfare, you need to stop everything and figure that out. I'm totally on board with the initiative, but that lack of an answer renders you without a foundation.

The "stick in the mud" group are almost entirely the old generation stuck in 1970 that can't accept that we don't like their 1970s Mass. We don't like their music. The Bob Dylan hymns are embarrassing. Their lame softball catechesis doesn't cut it anymore. We want real Christianity.

Wsed

Nothing went wrong after Vatican II; it is being enacted precisely as intended.

They took so much out of liturgy. I went through it & couldn't understand why? All the leading up to the Passion, latin, chants were dropped. They destroyed the reverence of the mass & especially the Holy Eucharistic. Went way to liberal!

The Novus Ordo has truly reverent masses in every way about 1%of the time because of issues intrinsic to the Novus Ordo.

What went right after Vatican 2 (1962-65) took until election of Pope Francis on 19 March 2013 as follows: I believe the purporting of higher vocation of consecrated celibacy to male female marriage on an opinion of St Paul at 1Cor7:25-34 caused attempted inversion of eucharist: - as procreation role helper of the family gift within the family, to: - eucharist as need of the roman catholic helper of the family role group purporting to be a family member group identity. This attempted inversion set up an incontrollable: "… oscillation between persistent forms of regressive familyism on the one hand and an affirmation of radical individualism on the other that, in destroying the family reverses the progress of humanisation, heedless of the long-term consequences." (from the address of Pope Francis' delegate as his President of his Council for the Family, Cardinal Vincenzo Paglia, at the UNO on 15 May 2014, the UNO designated "International Day of the Family".) Following his election, in the Mass on 19 March 2013 and subsequently Pope Francis has repeatedly corrected this uncontrollable oscillation and particularly on or about 10 June 2021 by his simultaneous authorisations in the cases of Cardinal Angelo Becciu and nine others of alleged embezzlement of procreation role gifts within the family (presently on indictment been heard in the Vatican State civil court) and the "Zan" anti-homophobia bill before the Italian Parliament as an unacceptable risk of fraud on union need of identities of family members of valid marriages (defeated in early November 2021). Pope Francis is correcting the harm of a "worldwide catastrophe" (his letter to Cardinal Reinhard Marx released on 10 June 2021) of "the great majority of marriages are invalid" (Pope Francis in 2015) caused by ethically utilitarian consequentialism duopsony (two buyers controlling price of their imputs) of church and state covering up tax embezzlement and insurance fraud by families groomed by diseased familyist family members. Since the evil is occult as hidden, incest connected as substitute mate grooming by diseased familyist family members of emotionally and psychologically vulnerable family members with this non-economic false status inducement of "higher vocation" or association with this "higher vocation", the remedy employed by Pope Francis was to out-occult this occult, incest connected evil by not knowing, though believing in uncertainty in, his identity and role in his keeping or allowing the inseparability and qualitative equality of this identity and role exercising an absolute power of authorisation of his simultaneous authorisations of applications by his Vatican State Secretariat of State in these two cases (Becciu + 9 on procreation in marriage and "Zan" on union in marriage). This grooming serves the purpose of diseased familyist family members of tax exemption of these purported consecrated celibate groups as charities and low insurance premiums as presumed chaste reflected in the accounts sent to families by roman catholic role groups for services, particularly education. Pope Francis needs the support of family members keeping inseparability and qualitative equality of their family member identities and their family member roles as helpers of families. This support can and must be given by these family members in exercising an absolute power of authorisation protesting outside roman catholic role group meetings, including for the Mass, that if based on "higher vocation", as they must be until Pope Francis is in a position to change this teaching, these meetings are for this grooming with an occult as hidden, incest connected as substitute mate, inducement.

Vatican II - A normal council? The mind of the early Church was specific although her formulated doctrine was less specific. For that reason the formulated doctrine needed to be constantly specified to better articulate WHAT WAS ALREADY BELIEVED. Whereas the post-conciliar trend is to modify the mind of the Church to conform to a more generically formulated doctrine. Did Vatican II leave out or ignore some essential Catholic Doctrine? A consideration of Vatican II using the concepts of genus and species. Without getting into the historical background, inner workings and doctrinal details of the Vatican II documents and rather relying on what most Catholics know about it, the following analogy I think is most revealing: Aristotle says that the natural way of learning and coming to know things is from the generic to the more specific. Just as when we see something moving in the distance we first identify it as a body and then as it moves closer an animal and even closer a man and finally as this particular person; Socrates. Now it needs to be understood that there is a difference between our knowledge of a thing and the thing itself. Furthermore if someone were to give the definition of the species of a thing instead of giving the definition of the genus of that thing one would give a more precise and fuller account of the thing. In other words, the more specific our knowledge becomes of something the closer our knowledge resembles the thing, the truer our knowledge is. (Truer, in the sense of having more truth. Adeguatio res et intellectus) This is the natural way man comes to know. To try to move in the opposite direction is unnatural and against human nature. To try to forget what one already KNOWS about something in order to know it more generically is an act of violence against oneself. It would entail force that goes against one's own nature. Using an analogy this would be like a seasoned cavalier who has known horses his whole life attempting to not consider a horse anymore as a horse but rather as an unspecified animal. Now what is more generic and less specific is more universal. Whereas as what is more specific is more exclusive, in the sense that an essential difference is added to the genus in order to define the species. This sets it apart from other species. In the same way when one says the word animal it can apply to many things. Whereas, when one says man it excludes many things and applies to just one type of animal. Now, things that exist in reality ARE NOT generic they are specific. The Church founded by Our Lord is a real existing reality. It is something specific with its own essential elements and properties. A specific account of the Church includes more essential elements than a generic one. The Councils, pronouncements and doctrines throughout the ages became more and more specific. The Church's awareness of itself approached more and more the reality of its own being. It is impossible to move in the other direction. In other words it is impossible to move from a specific knowledge to a more general confused knowledge. A generic knowledge of anything is always more confused than a specific one, just as knowing something only in so far as it is an animal is more confused than knowing it specifically. Instead, our knowledge specifies as we gain acquaintance and experience of a thing. One may object that the Apostles or early Christians had a very clear and specific knowledge of the Church. This is true. However the Church's formulated doctrine was not as specific. Throughout the centuries this doctrine became better formulated and more specific. This was necessary especially to rule out heresy and error. A more generic knowledge on the other hand leaves out essential elements since it can never define as well and as close to reality as a specific account can. Take for instance the treasure of Dogmas the Church has and considering for instance the doctrine of Transubstantiation or the Immaculate Conception. These are very well defined truths of our faith. To try and forget about them and return to a more generic explanation would, at this point in time, leave out essential elements. One may ask, why say "at this point in time" would entail leaving out essential elements? Its necessary to say "at this point in time" since one could object and say that the early Church's catechising was not as formulated as it was post Council of Trent, yet we cannot say that the Church left out essential elements in its teaching at that time. This is true and that is the point. When heresies attacked the faith of the Church, as what happened with Luther's idea of the Real Presence during mass, the older formulation of what happens during the consecration was no longer specific enough. Therefore the Church better and more specifically defined this miracle using the concept of transubstantiation. Any teaching now on the Real Presence which left out the concept of transubstantiation would at this point in time leave out what has become essential elements. Unless we would pretend that the threat of heretical interpretations no longer persists and a generic account would immediately render a correct understanding. However we know this is not the case. Now, in order for Vatican II to be less divisive, open to non Catholics and ALSO IN ORDER FOR THERE TO BE CONSENSUS AMONGST THE COUNCIL FATHERS, THE COUNCIL HAD TO REVERSE THE NATURAL PROCEDURE AND PROCLAIM SOMETHING MORE GENERIC THAN PREVIOUS COUNCILS. Now, one could argue that the council taught no error. Entering into this debate is not easy and not for the most of us. However knowing that the council purposefully decided to be less specific and more generic is known by all of us. Can we say that a generic knowledge of a thing is deficient compared to a fuller specific knowledge of a thing? Trying to go against oneself and forget what one once knew or defined creates the impression that one must have been wrong once upon a time. Because why else would one try to forget or forget to mention what one once knew or defined? How many people do we know who have used Vatican II to look back and interpret older Councils? Anything more specific than the Council is frowned upon as superfluous and outdated. But does truth age? Never the less can we blame them for acquiring this habit when this is a natural consequence of artificially regressing and not progressing in knowledge? Of trying to be less specific and more generic? Furthermore, there is a prevalent assumption amongst "post conciliar" Catholics that Vatican II attempted to strip Catholicism of whatever is non essential. But, this leads to a contradiction since to hold this view would be to believe that a specific account is less essential than a generic account. This is the same as saying that the definition of man as rational animal is less essential than defining him as an animal. I would therefore like to ask: Why do we think Vatican II is supposed to be a type of update of Catholicism or a type of refocusing of the Church on what is really essential? Did the Council Fathers intentionally want to be less specific for the sake of truth or was this a consequence of trying to find consensus both internally and with the outside world? Was the Church's self awareness and identity diminished on account of this? Following the proverb Lex orandi lex credendi and its just as true corollary lex credendi lex orandi is it fair to say that an analogy can be drawn: as the new council (specific to generic) compares to the organic evolution of doctrine (generic to specific) so does the new mass compare to the organic evolution of the ancient mass? This leads to the next question: in trying to reverse the natural progression from generic to specific and trying to return to the more generic with the excuse of returning to the mode of expression of the early Church does the real danger exists of actually becoming more generic than the early Church itself? There is an essential difference here: the mind of the early Church was very specific although her formulated doctrine was less specific. For that reason the formulated doctrine needed to be constantly specified to better articulate WHAT WAS ALREADY BELIEVED. Whereas the post-conciliar trend is to modify the mind of the Church to conform to a more generically formulated doctrine.

What went wrong with Vatican II? Humanity, When people tinker with what is God’s domain we see the results. As many Saints have said, “What’s wrong with the world?” ME...it wasn’t broke but John the 23rd decided to fix it. Boy did he! 🙏✝️🙏

it sounds like bugnini was a slimeball. billions of catholics attend mass designed by one nefarious man. great accomplishment no doubt.

What is a cheap shot at the new Mass? The new Mass itself is a cheap shot. In other words, it's Mass on the cheap. Now you're gonna tell me I just took a cheap shot at the new Mass. Go ahead, make my day.

So depressed at the dimunition of Catholicism. Vatican2 , so compromised The lousy music too. All the great musicians I know are disgusted by it.

Put me off right at the start. " accumulate heart of Mary and the pure strong heart of Joseph" You do not pray to anyone else but Jesus Christ. He "alone" has the authority and access to the Father for prayer. As the scripture says "No one can come to the father "except" thru Jesus

As soon as he said that the new mass is valid I turned them off! He doesn't know what he is talking about! He is a fake Catholic

Mr. O'Hearn is very naive if he things Pope Francis is doing anything other than personally trying to stamp out (the practice of) the traditional Mass. The Pope detests Tradition, however you define it.