How to modify standard projection equipment in order to transfer 8mm film to video including sound films.Step by step instructions & example of transfer.
I cannot count how many times I have watched this footage and it never fails to made me think back on those years with fondness.Thanks for the memories!
The results are simply stunning, and I say that after looking at what quite a few professional houses have produced. The complete lack of flicker is most striking but the clarity and colour purity are superb. You make it look so easy!
Remarkably the best quality 8mm to video transfer I have seen, Together with a full and clear explanation of how to achieve such results. My only criticism of the transfer is the rare whiteouts, particularly in areas of sky. Maybe locking the exposure at the start when setting white balance could eliminate these, but it could make things worse, depending on the exposure mix in the original footage. Your video has both instructed and encouraged me. And that music, its just so evocative.
Just thought I'd let you know that I experimented with three RGB LED's from Maplins at £1.99! Each diode gives off green, blue and red light....but linked together then give off white light. I was completely amazed at the difference this made to regular halogon lighting. Not only were the colours more true ( I have a 3 CCD camera) but the detail was better. It's ( apparently ) to do with the original emulsions in the cine film itself, and how a 3 CCD camera sees light ( in green, blue and red).
I am impressed with the quality of your transfers... excellent work congratulations. I also enjoyed watching the film very much....the machines those guys were using on site were fantastic. I particularly noticed the cable driven 'shovel'...amazing really when you think these days most plant is hydraulically operated. Great...loved it.
Thanks. A relative gave me 26 reels to convert I didn't want the usual results. I used your video and others to take an Ansco 788 projector and convert it for capture use. I removed the bulb and replaced it with a 10-watt CF bulb. I then added a dimmer switch to the motor. I didn't need it most of the time. I didn't have a lens and mirror to invert and rotate the image. I just did it through software in post. I pointed camera right into the lens. The relative was stoked at results.
Well done..Thats pure genius man how u got such a 'flicker' free image -and so sharp off a Standard 8 print.. I have been looking at some Telecine transfer machines costing around £2000 and the results are nothing like what you are getting off that old Eumig.. I know most of the good transfer quality is due to the condenser lens but in the end the projector and the mod's are what give the final result, and your final result is 'surperb' and i have totally enjoyed looking at that 8mm film..
Nope sorry man im sticking to my original statement 'in that you are the genius' on this one..Ok so Roger aligned a condenser lens with a mirror, I think we may all have tried mirrors and lenses in the quest of doing 8mm transfers but suffered flare\hot spots \and flicker!.. Its your mod's to the Eumig that win the day & also what a great Video you have made to illustrate your project (excellent) So i hope your are blushing--Its the winning colour.. (Well done)
@mickthebl chinon has two speed pots on the circuit board near the front. ( just remove the front cover)1 adjusts the speed from 18fps and the other adjusts the projector speed when set to 24 frames. just use a plastic screwdriver, a steel one will screw up the speed when its touching the dimmer pot as it has a weak meginetic field that interfers when so close to the circuit board, hope that helps cheers, Dave
Thanks for the compliment. Really it is easy.A lot depends on the original film, fortunately mine was quite good & I only used the best shots. Liked your Vulcan video. I remember well, about 30 years ago , sheltering from the pouring rain under the wing of one at the Woodford Air Show, where it was on static display.
@strontian90 - Simply adjust the speed control until the flicker stops. These projectors are very good as they are shaft & gear driven with no belts.I adjusted mine to 16.66fps six years ago & have not had to adjust it again since. It is also not necessary to warm it up first as it consistantly runs at the required speed.
Well done - and fascinating '65 footage. I never had much success with an aerial image system so ended up with stop frame - I guess I didn't get the right condenser lens. I'm amazed the old Eumig will keep to speed accurately enough without sync.
@pianoart2 I've used a non-dimmable 12v MR16. Before mounting it I've measured the out going amps and compared it with the data sheet of the spot, which actually has 21 LEDs in it. Subsequently I've connected the led to the projector and turned it on, and as said, for Telecine it works superb, because there are multiple light sources instead of one central source. You can't use it as a real projector, just because the wattage of the LED is a lot less than the original 100W halogen spot.
Thanks so much for your instruction video. I tried it out using a old sankyo Super 8 projector and a Canon 550d dslr with a zoom lens as the camcorder and got some promising results. Now I just need to start fine tuning a few things.
Amazing! I just did a quick test with a recently recorded ektachrome 64T, a shaving mirror and a 3" magnifying glass, and the results were stunning, Never saw the film that sharp. I think next week I will try to buy a larger magnifiyning glass (5") and make some kind of box with a rectangular mirror in it, I'd hope it will work :) Actually I've replaced the 100W spot by a 2700k LED lamp, which works quite well for telecine, and there is no hot spot anymore (because of the separate leds)
@jimerd1 . Thanks for the compliment. The condenser lens is double convex - convex both sides. It is 5 inches in diameter, 3/16 thick at the edge & 7/16 in the middle. I think it is 3 dioptres. I read an article where a 4 inch magnifying glass with a magnification of 1.5 - 2.0 had been sucessfully used for this purpose. I tried it with a 3 1/2 inch lens lens but was unsucessful due the lens being too powerful. An optical supplier should be able to advise you.
@VideoClapper . Glad that you found it interesting. I think that the whiteouts are down to Utube. I have just had a look at the original on the DVD player. There are no whiteouts & you can clearly see the shape of the white clouds against a very pale blue sky, you can even see white smoke rising from a chimney in the distance, which cannot be seen on Utube. The exposure has to be locked at 1/50th second for the transfer but the aperture is automatic. Overall the quality of the DVD is superior.
@ozartdotus Yes, certainly the white paper is removed before running the film - see when the camcorder zooms in to the lens, or the picture next to the caption which is taken as the camcorder zooms in. For PAL systems the projector has to run at 16.66 fps with 1 50th sec exposure. For NTSC? speed is 20 fps with 1 60th second exposure. So over there in the USA you will have to speed up your projector from 18 fps to 20 fps to avoid flicker.
@mickthebl You've done a great transfer hat off to you! By the way what sort of Canon Camcorder is it? I have set up your exact system good transfer but resolution is not as good as yours but then im camcorder isn't as good as yours by the looks of it? I presume it's digital? Cheers J
@TheOzphotoman I am in Australia and have a Mark S Eumig 807D (had it since new). The cameras I have to use are either 29.97 fps or 24 fps. Initial experiments produce flicker. Do I still set the Eumig to 16.66 and 50Hz, or 60Hz? I have s/w (handbrake) that wil convert to lower frame rates if necessary.
Thanks for the compliment. The music is taken from a copyright free disc "Gentle Guitar" track 2 produced by NVMDIGITAL. They produce many background music discs which can often be heard on TV programmes here in the UK.
@TheOzphotoman . That,s fine, with the flag set at 50ccs, & the slide set at 18fps, time a short film, calculate the time at 16.66fps, reset the flag at 60ccs, & adjust the slide so that the film plays at the required time. It will now be set at 16.66fps - all as shown in the video.
@rwbuswell- Glad you liked it. As a matter of interest all the men on the film are " Skemmers " from the old town, of course. - your " neck of the woods"? I had the projector fully serviced by John White down in London, & he told me how to adjust it to 16.66fps. Before that, I tried it with a dimmer switch which was not very sucessful. A 5 inch magniying glass might work as a condensing lens? I was lucky, buying mine before Moviestuff realised it was not a good idea to sell them separately.
Interesting. I am about to embark on a similar project, however I am using a digital still camera with video capability to record direct to AVI. I have done initial tests to see how much flicker I got by just videoing directly off a screen and it worked very well, but with flicker.
Nice job! Can you tell me about your condenser lens? is it flat on one side (Plano- convex) or convex on both sides. I know it is 5 inches in diameter . If it is flat on one side witch side is facing the camcorder. I have a bunch of 8mm films to transfer and your video inspired me to do it your way it looks great, My and i also enjoyed you music selection. you made a nice help full video. thank you
@ginkelvanmichiel How are you powering the led? I just got a 12V MR16 led. I'm scared to connect it to the 12V from the projector cause I'm not sure about the amps and what will happen. How many elements does your led have?
@mickthebl Thanks, I was not sure how the 50/60Hz came into play. In Oz it is 50, so that will be OK. I'll need to check the shutter speed. I do have a dimmer device, actually a drill spped controlle I made myself, so that will work if required.
@alybal. - Thanks for the compliment & glad that you enjoyed it. I think that the only place you would see plant like that now,would be in a museum,apart from cranes which don't seem to have changed so much.
@TheOzphotoman- For flicker free PAL transfers the projector must run at 16.66fps with a standard camcorder running at 25fps set to an exposure of 1/50th sec.The problem could be that your camera is running at 24fps & may not have an exposure setting of 1/50th sec.
@dell1932 Thanks for the compliment. Yes,the camcorder recorded the set up & transfer in one operation. I should have have zoomed out at the end of the film to make it more apparent. The camcorder faces the lens & the mirror turns the image 90 degrees to the projector. I have a friend who bought the similar pro system & understand it is very difficult to set up with a tripod. The secret is to centre the image on the lens & position the cam lens with the proj beam. Then the rest is very simple.
Hi....One major problem I have is trying to line everything up! Apart from trial and error, is there a reliable method to line all the optics up correctly? It seems a tiny movement one way or the other makes the image disappear all togther or you get a "blueing" or colour change of the image...could a laser level be applied to use the laser beam to help line up the optics? I also use a magnifying glass rather than plano convex lens...but maybe should invest the extra and get the proper lens??
@rwbuswell - It was shot at a new Manchester Corporation overspill site at Partington. The 60s type building in the background is Broadoak Comprehensive School. Brews had a lot of men from Skelmersdale working for them, as I believe, there was a lot of unemployment in the area due to local industry closing. This, of course, was before the New Town was built.
Yes, providing you have a 16mm projector that runs at exactly 24fps. See the moviestuff website for 16mm units( although theirs is single frame capture the principle is the same) The projector needs a 5 bladed shutter. If you cannot make a shutter yourself they can be purchased from GDM Telecine Shutters. You will need a camcorder with a 1/60th sec exposure & there should be no flicker when projected in real time at 24fps.This is for NTSC only.
@mickthebl Hi I came across this tut as I am about to transfer some old cine films of mine - I am 70! Can you tell me the focal length of the lens as I am getting no image at all on it. Thanks pl help. The proj I'm using is Bolex 18-5
@somerton123 . My lens is f1.2 12.5-25mm but yours should be OK. Assuming your mirror/condenser assembly is similar to mine - take out the condenser lens & stick a piece of tracing over the opening. Zoom & focus the projector until you get a clear sharp image of the frame on the paper.If you can do this the projector lens is OK. Focus the camcorder on the image. Replace the condenser lens- if it does not work now, the condenser lens is not suitable. Don't forget to dim the lamp!!!!
@videomanproductions. I considered using LEDs but wanted to vary the strength of the light depending on the film exposure ( hence the dimmer )& decided it would be too difficult with LEDs.Also looked at " Telecine"rwbuswell here on Utube.He has tried both & considers halogen to be slightly better.I bought mine from BLT Direct at less than £1.00 each & have only used one in the last six years.
@nevetstdlob. I had one of those a few years ago, or at least the Bolex equivalent. It does have variable speed control, but not sure if it is mechanical or a variable resistance. They are a good projectors with the advantage of a 600 ft spool. You may have a bit of a problem if you want to widen the gate. Mine was S8 only unfortunately. There are many lamps which fit this projector from 10 watts upwards & if you wired them on a separate circuit you could incorporate a dimmer.
@muzboz Providing you can find the right projector,lens & mirror, you should not have a problem. The projector needs to be slowed down to 16.66fps & I think it must have a 3 bladed shutter. You will also need an editing programme to speed the transfer back to 24fps. Have a look at the " Moviestuff" website, they have 16mm units which run at 16.66 & 25fps. The 16.66 fps will have a three bladed shutter & requires a camcorder exposure of1/50sec for PAL.Don't know about the shutter on 25fps unit.
I have nearly got my setup like this working. The ELMO ST-180M, I found also has the two pots on the circuit board. winding one of them down has COMPLETELY eliminated the flicker. hope this helps for elmo owners, Steve
@TheOzphotoman The condenser lens acts as a large magnifying glass which allows the camcorder to capture the image of the film in the projector gate. If you use a ground glass screen you will have a problem with grain though this can be reduced by using the largest possible screen, you may also have a problem with a hotspot & contrast. One of the posters below recommends tracing paper which gave him acceptable results.
@nevetstdlob. It sounds very much like the material I used but better. - mine was grainy.The reason I projected so large ( 12" * 9" ) was to attempt reduce the grain & the hotspot. I think it did reduce it a bit. You cannot notice it with your eye but the camcorder will pick it up.You can try doing it with lights on in the room which might help. The lamp in the projector might work as it is. The condenser lens is a large magnifyer so that you can focus the camcorder on the frame in the gate?
@mickthebl Where was the footage shot? I saw Warrington and Irlam on the plant. I'm not a native Skemmer being an ex-pat Geordie - but here since '81 !
@ynnebbenny . That's how I started, with about 30No. 600ft reels it would have cost a fortune. Though after 6 years, I still have 5 to go, due to also replacing the sound tracks.If you read the comments below you should be able to pick some tips, but if you have any problems, just ask. BEST OF LUCK.
Very very good, though you do not need a front silver mirror to invert the footage. Flip it in your software afterwards. I was able to buy cinecap so I am doing my films frame by frame.
@mickthebl the description tells this: "Sound has been synchronised later." Camera: Kodak Instamatic M4, film Kodachrome K40 DIY telecine with a mirror, a large magifiying glass and a Canon DV-camera, used in the 16:9-mode. Gate of the projector has been wided. Leader is a screen frame-by-frame record. (original probably. 16mm) Film leader is frame-by-frame opgenomen vanaf een computerbeeldscherm (vermoedelijk een 16mm leader?)
@hmarillejla7 . Sorry but I do not know the focal length of the condenser lens.It is 5 inch double convex, 3mm thick at the edge/rim & 15mm o/a in the centre.I think it is 3 dioptres. I believe if you use a standard magnifying glass with a 1.50 - 2.0 magnification this will work. See other comments below. Make sure that your lamp is not too powerful - if you can look into the projector lens & see the film frame in the gate clearly without hurting your eye, that is all the illumination you need
@somerton123 . Condenser lenses come in combinations of plano ( straight) convex & concave-you need a double convex.Try putting the 2 lenses back to back , but it will be probably be too much magnification.You need a 4 or 5 inch magnifying glass with a 1.50 -2.0 magnification- that should do it. If all else fails,try projecting on to a piece of tracing paper with the camcorder behind ( See nevetstdlob comments below) You will still need the mirror to laterally invert the image.
@whatthebutlersaw01 It is a standard definition, 3CCD,Canon XM2.digital video camcorder. Originally I used a digital Canon MVX150i until it it broke & I replaced it with the 3CCD model.Although the definition is slightly better with the 3CCD one, the original produced excellent results. If you use a High Definition camcorder you would get even better results than mine, but you have the problem of aspect ratio, as they all seem to be in widescreen format, some form of masking would be required.
Paper is not used as a projection screen. The paper is only used to roughly focus the camcorder, it is then removed and the camcorder is now focussed on the film in the projector gate.
@TheOzphotoman - In the UK the power is 50ccs ( Dont know about Oz) & by setting the flag at 60ccs it alters the speed range ( mechanically ) from 18-24 to 14-20fps. Try adjusting the projector speed with your s/w ( whatever that is ) until the flicker stops. Alternately you could try inserting a dimmer switch on the projector lead - BE CAREFUL NOT TO DAMAGE THE MOTOR!!!!
As long as you have the mirror & lens at 45 degrees & you centre the image in the lens & then position the camcorder by the beam, only minor adjustments will be required.The main cause of discolouring is because the camcorder is probably not on the centre line of the beam either horizontally or vertically although the lens is. Juggle it about a bit & you will get it right.A magnifying glass will be fine providing it is of the correct magnification - see video response above,that uses a m glass
@nevetstdlob - Don't know about Duralene or the other.I bought a transfer box with a ground glass screen & there was a problem with grain & hotspot.Then I tried projecting on to a 12" * 9" sheet of opaque material, the grain was not as bad,but the hotspot was very noticeable- bright in the middle but dark at the corners. Cannot see how you can get around the hotspot - if you use a difuser it might not project? The Eumig bulb may be OK without a dimmer. BEST OF LUCK. Let me know if it works.
@somerton123 . When the film is in the gate, as long as the shiny side is facing the lamp & the dull side facing the projector lens , when PROJECTED, the image will be the right way up.
@triceramovieboy . For PAL systems you must set the projector speed to 16.66 frames per second & the camcorder exposure to 1/50th second & there will be no flicker. The video shows you how to do it.
@ducter2001 Thanks for the compliment-you almost made me blush.Roger Evans? of Moviestuff is the genius, I just copied his Cinemate & fiddled about with the projector until it worked.Also I only used the best shots of the 8mm film,if I had used the poor ones, you probably would have a different opinion.How you upload it to Utube makes a difference I believe-I used an AVI file & it took 13 hours- (don't know how else to do it)This may have something to do with the quality but original is better.
@muzboz. Before I found out how to mechanically adjust my projector I used a dimmer switch on the main lead which was not very successful.To check that you have the correct speed, project on to a screen,film the image with a camcorder & adjust the projector until the flicker stops. See " kodak(elmo) 16mm 5-BLADE ( NO FLICKER) FILM TRANSFER - pizzaguy 2002" His projector speed will be different than yours as you are on the PAL system. Set the camcorder at 1/50 sec & adjust the projector to suit.
@mickthebl I'ts allmost a year ago, but, at last I've uploaded a super8 movie through the same sort of telecine. And it works superb :) I will add it as a video-reply. :)
@ginkelvanmichiel . Well done! If you manage to find a 5 inch magnifying glass, I believe it needs to have a magnification of 1.5 - 2.0. If you do get a hotspot, you could probably insert a glass diffuser between the LEDs & gate. I have accurately remeasured my lens & it is 5" dia, 3.0mm thick at the edge/rim, & 15mm o/a in the middle. It is double convex. When you are sucessful, I would be very interested to see it, so please add it to your site.
@nevetstdlob The lens produces an aerial image, with this & the projector lens, you can zoom in the camcorder to the frame in the projector gate. see-"Moviestuff"-Cinemate-how it works", for more information. The Eumig speed range is 18-24 - you require 20fps in the USA . Mechanical drive is better than belts- Cinemate has a control for adjusting the speed to eliminate flicker when transferring - it is belt driven. I set my EUMIG in 2004 to 16.66fps & have not had to touch since. 150+ hrs use
I have been using a variable speed to get rid of the flicker, and it does that real good. The problem is when dial up the speed on sound projectors to get rid of the flicker, the voices are speeded up too! Mini Mouse anyone? How do you fix that without new equipment. Or am I just squeakn'dixey.
Yes, unfortunately this will happen. You could try using an editing programme such as Pinnacle which allows you to speed up or slow down the transferred film. By trial and error slightly slow down the transfer until the speech sounds right, & there will be no flicker. Once you have the setting right just apply it to the whole transfer. If you get it wrong it is quite easy to return it to its original state & have another go at it. There many programmes on the market which will do this.
mickthebl Hello, I would like to have additional information about your telecine system. I have the following equipment: → projector Beaulieu 708 EL STEREO → Camcorder Sony FS 100 Or can we have the condenser you have made. Do you have the condenser manufacturing plan? For lighting Led how cell does it take to get an excellent result (HD 1080P). Or can we buy the illumination cell? In advance thank you for your response. Sincerely. Alain mail cgr@numericable.fr
alain batier See my response to jim Erdmann below for specification of condenser lens. You will also need a first surface mirror set at 45deg to the lens. I believe that Leds are successful as a light source, I have never tried them. Almost any light source will do as long as it is low powered & diffused. You have to make one that fits your Beaulieu projector.
@somerton123 . Focus the image with a piece of paper over the condensor lens.Remove the film & project the beam through the mirror & lens onto a piece of paper & where it forms the most distinct circle that is the approx position for the cancorder-between 2 & 3 feet from the lens. If you still cannot get a full image it is because-A lamp far too bright, B condensor lens is not suitable, or C insufficient zoom on camcorder. See other comments below re lamp & condensor lens.
I don't think a laser level would help. It is easy enough to set the projector, mirror & lens in line & at 90 degrees & shine the beam through onto the cam lens cap, then adjust the cam to suit. You can do this without a film in the gate. If the corners of the frame are dark, the back of the cam needs adjusting until it is evenly bright all over. See" Moviestuf" site- how it works.A friend has one of theirs & I understand it is difficult to set up.My lens is a double convex, not plano convex
@pollyboy12 Would not like to say as I have not had any of my films transferred professionally. There are plenty of examples on here, some better , some worse. It is difficult to tell as it depends on the quality of the original film. However see Strontian90 below.
How is your condenser lens magnifying just the film in the gate? Does it have to do with the distance from the mirror/lens from the projector lens? Is the projector lens zoomed in all the way or out? Sorry for all the questions, just really curious as to how to make this work for myself. Great work!!!
The projector is placed about 1 foot in front of the lens and mirror, a piece of paper is folded over the face of the condenser lens, and the projector is focussed and zoomed to obtain the largest image on the paper, all as shown on the video. The paper is removed and the camcorder zoomed and focussed on the image on the condenser lens. Whether the projector is projecting on to the camcorder chip, or the camcorder is focussed on the projector gate , I do not know, but it works.
I'm having trouble getting the light focused onto the lens cap of the camera. Could it be my projector lens? It's a F1.5 20-32mm projector lens. Which are you using? Thank you for all your help!!
It will not be the projector lens but the condenser lens which is at fault. If you can get one, try a 4 or 5 inch magnifying glass with a magnification of 1.5 - 2.0.One of the posters below tried this several years ago and got perfect results using a shaving mirror and a magnifying glass.
Not sure I know what you mean. Is the projected picture flickering? If so, you need to adjust the projector speed to 16.66fps. and the camcorder shutter to 1/50th sec. and 25fps
Not sure what you mean except that the picture is moving from side to side? I assume that you have tried just projecting straight on to a screen or piece of paper. If the same fault happens it is a problem with the projector gate and claw or a faulty film with damaged sprocket holes. You could also try stopping the film in the gate ( as shown in the video before focussing ) and let the camcorder run to see if there is the same movement. If there is not, it looks like a fault with the projector. If there is movement, it will be the camcorder. If the above fails, I do not know. I assume that the projector has a 3 bladed shutter? Let me know how you get on.
The projector is perfect, this is all within the Camera's shortcomings, I assume. I am projecting the image directly on to the camera sensor, using Panasonic GH-4. you can check some of my uploads, to see the problem. It's not too bad , but I want to make it better if I could.
@ginkelvanmichiel I'll give that a try. The led I have has a single element. These led's are getting very powerful. I've been following this thread for a while as "nevetstdlob" but google messed up my accounts. I got my Eumig running OK and I just received a first suface mirror for the box I'll make.
if you are still using bulbs, google pureland supply for good prices, I do not work for them or am trying to spam, just a good lead for you to save money. but l.e.d lighting is better Dave
