Everyone is WRONG about level criticism except ME

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setting the record straight once and for all. shoutouts to mindcap for letting me use a random out of context voice clip
video links:
• What Is The Perfect Ni...
• The Autistic Horror of...
• GD Community's Art Cri...
• Seeing Through Selenite
• Level Review - Melody ...
• Game Critics
music credits: docs.google.com/document/d/1d...
discord: / discord
twitter: / brilliantgd
twitch: / wherwin

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11 сен 2023

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Комментарии : 428

@EricVanWilderman 9 месяцев назад

Exactly. A lot of people are so caught up in technical analysis of levels, they forget to think about how they actually feel about them. I always try to think of levels as an experience, and so if it delivers on its premise, even though some parts might not be the best, I'll send it anyways. It's all about how I feel about it really, and less about the technical side of things, which could get boring pretty fast. That's not to say that highly technical levels aren't impressive, but in the end levels are art and it isn't the only thing to focus on. When it comes to reviewers, a perfectly objective one just doesn't exist. What I like to do when it comes to movies is to find a reviewer that thinks similarly to I do, and then when they say they like a movie, it makes me think I might like it as well. I think that's the beauty of listening to reviews is that there are so many different opinions out there, that there's going to be a reviewer you can eventually find that aligns with your tastes, and you can follow their advice. Like you said, you can also listen to ones that have a differing opinion and it can give you a different perspective, but I mostly use reviews to see if I want to invest time in a piece of media that could take awhile (like a book or game). Good video.

@robf1557 9 месяцев назад

Hit the nail on the head, some of my absolute favorite levels are those, that completely immerse me in their atmosphere. Feeling trumps technique for me a thousand out of a thousand times

@heresyterminator 8 месяцев назад

Holy shit you are awesome

@dysopia 2 месяца назад

eric jumpscare

@NothingIsScary 9 месяцев назад

damn didn't expect to be brought up. actually kinda spooked me haha. to clarify, in my video the objectivity i was looking for was on a level basis not an art basis. what i was looking for was a level that could be enjoyed by the most players possible while being faithful to the original. don't worry i hate the idea that art is objective. aside of that thanks for the criticism, its nice to see someone passionate enough about art to give a fair criticism to a content creator.

@lonesome3958 9 месяцев назад

And fair of you for handling criticism towards you so well

@kekaci 9 месяцев назад

Your comment reminded me to watch your video, so I just did. I liked it. It's a cool idea! The level quality you're looking for is just as subjective as the decoration quality you mentioned in this comment. I find the criteria you came up with agreeable; I think I'd set it up in a similar way, and it definitely created an interesting video. However, you could've dropped the word "objective" from your claim, and it would've made the point of the video much clearer. You can define criteria with the goal of narrowing down a list to one level while also recognizing that the criteria is subjective. If you've watched that one Tom Scott video about "the best thing," he did exactly that. You both used subjective filtering to create an interesting video with a similar result. There's absolutely nothing wrong with this approach. If you've watched efext's videos, I feel like his style would work better for future videos like this that you might create. There is no "end result" in his videos. Instead, he focuses on his criteria: what some levels do well, what other levels do poorly, and justifications for those claims. Towards the end of your video, you mention some levels that got ruled out and why that happened. That's more or less the style I'm describing, but applied globally to your topic. I hope you found my comment interesting! I'll definitely be checking out your channel; once again, really cool video!

@coocoo3336 9 месяцев назад

Thats not objectivity. That is just what the community enjoys subjectivly. And a level that tries to appeal to the lowest common denominator is going to be pretty milk toast and boring. Its more interesting if you try to appeal to a neiche

@weirdsounds-f3616 9 месяцев назад

Omg i love ur videos

@moth5799 9 месяцев назад

@@coocoo3336 It is objectivity, just looking at a different quality. He's not analysing the level as a piece of art. The aim wasn't to get the most interesting or exciting level.

@JamAttack 9 месяцев назад

I like to say there's something between subjectivity and objectivity which I'd call "collective subjectivity" but that's still not objectivity or anything close to it

@akwire4253 9 месяцев назад

Exactly! Communities like this one adopt their own standards for what they consider quality art. It still varies from person to person, but those standards still exist. I think people get caught up in this when they talk about objectivity in art critique.

@billy6678 9 месяцев назад

This is the exact sentiment I like. It completely rubbed me off how yes, theoretically this creator is right, but what's the point? What, you've officially proven that art criticism can't be subjective, and your solution is that everyone should embrace their chaos in their own reviews? Get a grip. Yes, claiming that it's purely objective like StormFly is unhealthy, but on the other side of spectrum it's unprogressive to disregard everything as equal value since everything is "subjectivity." Sure to a 4th dimensional being, those railroads are completely unappealing and hideous, but what, you really consider that 4th dimensional being as relevant for our purposes? Sure you can blabber about how _technically_ because of that one being, art criticism can't be objective, but they aren't significant in any way for the true purpose of art criticism. Collectively subjectivity is enough objectivity for our standards. Also, from what I read, CherryTeam was perfectly rational in their anger. No clue why the creator drew such a specific and weird vibe from their statement.

@bag1035 9 месяцев назад

the word is intersubjective, i think he mentioned that as the "average person" argument the potential existence of someone who finds the second half of love baba visually pleasing makes it entirely subjective imo, and the entire point of the video is that it's (subjectively) better to be honest to just say that you think X is cool or X looks like dogshit or X adds or subtracts value from a level for any reason (or at least my interpretation of it) my personal experience is that if you put any standards aside of that your own (even intersubjective standards) you'll eventually find things that you think are absolutely terrible and disgusting, but are "objectively" ok. i find that kind of thing restraining, especially if you're creative yourself. making things for the acceptance of other people is soul sucking and its best to strive for your own idea of quality, and restraining your opinions is similarly frustrating

@nayR5 2 месяца назад

Objectivity is collective subjectivity. True objectivity doesn't exist.

@_ego11 9 дней назад

@@billy6678thank you bro I agree

@Flaaroni 9 месяцев назад

Thank God someone finally talked about this. I've had so many arguments about this very thing so it's a relief seeing you cover this topic

@ideac. 9 месяцев назад

its crazy that to this day, people still want to label art as objective (and say that their opinion is also objective)

@lukecarroll19 9 месяцев назад

This comment is objectively based.

@vitamingetranke7326 9 месяцев назад

Becaue we need the perspective of the artist to know wether they did a good job or not. If not there is no good or bad art as it is 100% up to the consumer to find its qualities - which is something anyone can do with anything. with this view drake could actually be a good artist and if any view allows for drake to be a good artist it is a bad view. You are not a good artist and your art is not good if you thought nothing when you made it. You litterally thought nothing. The only way to be sure that an artist has actual brain activity is if they tried to do something specific with their art. Subjective art is meaningless and takes no skill or brain to create. There is nothing to respect or admire (except from maybe visuals). fuck drake

@zen0x50 9 месяцев назад

No, they label the QUALITY of art as objective, which it absolutely can if established standards are used to judge it.

@susanchepkok4488 9 месяцев назад

@@zen0x50yeah I see what you mean

@afromango899 9 месяцев назад

@@zen0x50 But most people that think like this only consider *their* standards to be the objective ones

@MatMart 9 месяцев назад

I was surprised to see that I wasn't talked about considering my use of the scoring system. Even though every individual part of the scoring system still obviously includes my own opinion like there's nothing that can objectively judge if a level has "7/10 decoration." I'm usually not able to make long arguments for why I like / dislike a level for the sake of conciseness but I can see the value of doing so. Interesting to see your take on this stuff

@elvpse 9 месяцев назад

Im a fan

@AdamantWind2071 9 месяцев назад

IM A FAN TOO!

@elvpse 9 месяцев назад

@@AdamantWind2071 no your the ac

@AdamantWind2071 9 месяцев назад

@@elvpse what did I do to you lol.

@r0021 9 месяцев назад

just from this title i can tell that this will be worth watching lmao

@r0021 9 месяцев назад

And it absolutely was. I personally want to start creating youtube videos in which I talk about gd levels at some point in the future, and this video is definitely something that I'm glad I have seen before starting all of this. i will definitely keep this in mind if i ever decide to actually do this stuff

@s3batr0nic 9 месяцев назад

I remember when I commented "why this level" on deadlox's KOCMOC part Vernam replied to my comment like 3 times and then went on my channel and made angry comments on most of my community posts, genuinely one of the funniest afternoons ever

@funnyrockangry 5 месяцев назад

He just had a long convo of basically talking completely brain-dead nonsense for like two hours while I just tried to get him to shut up, he's one of the most annoying people in the GD community...

@smelloodle1070 3 дня назад

Sought out your channel to read them. Vernam was so sigma when he said “L no one cares” four times.

@Remidyo 9 месяцев назад

I think that something people forget when trying to filter out their opinions is that, once you have consistently set the guidelines of what you like or not in a level, someone can always surprise you a lot! They can find a level that you never had seen or even make one which then could become one of your favorites, just by knowing what you're into and thinking about it! In my opinion, this is the best type of interaction possible, the moments where someone is talking about things that they enjoy and they manage to find out that *there's even more stuff to appreciate* The opposite is also true, someone could make a list of the most normal complaints made by someone and proceed to make "the worse thing made for X person", but in both cases the thought can stay similar: If you share something about you, someone might try to use the knowledge they got!

@Periwinkleaccount 9 месяцев назад

Something I find funny about the cherry team tweet is that it says “there aren’t that many criteria for evaluating levels” and then, despite that, needs an “and so on”.

@TooMuchGranite 8 месяцев назад

TRUE

@plasmakitten4261 9 месяцев назад

I just REALLY want to see an actual live debate between you and Stormfly on this subject, since Stormy is really the only other person I've ever seen manage to take a strong middle ground between "art is completely objective" and "art is completely arbitrary" on the subject of Geometry Dash.

@gdartho 9 месяцев назад

There are plenty of people with that stance, they just aren’t very prominent in the gd community and their time is better spent not arguing with stubborn 14 year olds

@plasmakitten4261 9 месяцев назад

@@gdartho which I why I suggested a debate between Wherwin and Stormy since they aren't stubborn 14 year olds (well at least they aren't 14 year olds)

@HelloHSR 9 месяцев назад

I love NothingIsScary as much as the next person subscribed to him, but seriously thank you so much for talking about this. I've recently noticed how much people base their opinions on what other people think, and not what they think. It's annoying when people not only suppress their own opinions for the sake of "objectivity", but also for the sake of telling everyone who disagrees how to think. I'll admit, I've done this before, even outside of Geometry Dash, but I feel very guilty about it and I'm trying to change. I think that the best way to state your opinions is to give your unfiltered, not "objectified" opinion on something , and then justify why you think that. This is helpful not only to the reader, but also to help yourself in a way. The human brain is an extremely complex thing, and to figure out why you like something helps you understand your own way of thinking just a little bit more. Look at that, level criticism in GD can help you in the real world.

@Synactive 9 месяцев назад

objective is the new official

@RainzorBlade 9 месяцев назад

I have an opinion on Slaughterhouse that's validated by this video. Slaughterhouse has incredibly agonizing gameplay, it's awful and I'm pretty sure a lot of people agree with that. But I still love the level. To me, when paired with it's song, I get the idea that the level is a manifestation of ones inner demons. It's completely unfun, absolutely agonizing, and would make you cry. But, assuming you have the skill in GD, as long as you keep trying and don't give up you will eventually overcome it. The song is like this demon screaming at you about all the evil it's enacted through you. And when the level ends? It just.. cuts away. It's gone and you're left in silence. Neither of you won, both you and the demon suffered from this conflict. Slaughterhouse is terrible, and that's why it's perfect. It near perfectly represents spiritual struggle.

@Anxmaly666 9 месяцев назад

I've been following Icedcave for 3 years I have and always had an appreciation for his levels since they always made me feel a certain way as well as just being extremely good levels in general. It really annoys me how people hate Slaughterhouse just because its a hell level and how people claim he is a bad creator. The way this community judges levels is really frustrating.

@gdartho 9 месяцев назад

You’re confusing a level’s quality with your personal enjoyment for it. It’s completely possible to like and enjoy an objectively poorly made level, same as I can enjoy watching a bad kids cartoon (because of nostalgia for instance)

@zmitter4844 9 месяцев назад

@@gdartho Did you... watch the video? What do you mean by objectively poorly made level? What criteria are you using here? Personally, I think the deco of SLH is really good, it's pretty and well made. The song representation is fantastic; the dispair in the screams fit so well with the brutal and unforgiving indifference of the gameplay. Nothing I just said was objective, but I truly believe all of it. I really like SLH and I can "objectively" rank it all I want, but at the end of the day it's all opinion. It's not low quality or poorly made because you say it is. Personal enjoyment in my opinion is the most important criteria for a level. Afterall, GD levels only exist to be enjoyed... whether that be by the people who play them, the people who make them, or the people who watch them on youtube.

@gdartho 9 месяцев назад

@@zmitter4844 I already addressed all the points you made in a different comment thread on this video. If you care enough, find my original comment. I had a pretty long discussion with wherwin as well as a few other people.

@zmitter4844 9 месяцев назад

@@gdartho I just finished reading the thread and I found your stance really interesting actually! I do disagree with it though, or at least the thought process behind it. Yes, techniques exist and you can improve in those areas with study and practice. Painters for example can get better at perspective or shading, and that could be understood as objective. The thing about these techniques though: they are not what make art good. The art is. You mentioned the Mona Lisa a couple times, saying it's objectively good. It's not. Is it impressive? Absolutely! The skills and techniques required to create such a piece are astonishing. It checks off all the realism boxes and that is a difficult thing to do. That doesn't make it good art. Instead, it puts the work under a certain umbrella: realism in this case. You compared it to cubism, saying that a cubist work could be an objectively bad realism painting and an objectively good cubist painting. This is true, but only if your standard on what is "good" is soley based on arbitrary checkboxes used to determine what genre a piece of art falls under (and yes, they _are_ arbitraty for every genre except realism). Really ask yourself, what makes a good cubist painting? And I don't just mean what makes it impressive, I mean what makes it worthwhile? Why does the artistic work deserve to exist? If your answer is technique, then is it really worthwhile? I don't enjoy good art because of the artist's technique, I enjoy it because it makes me feel a certain way, or think about a topic from a new perspective, or understand myself in a way I never had before, or some other personally or culturally significanct reason. How skillful an artist may be has absolutely _no_ bearing on whether or not the final product is actually good. This applies to music, painting, GD levels... every artistic medium out there. Basically what I'm trying to say is that artistic principals are not scientific rules. They can be objectively analyzed, sure, but they are not what makes art good or bad. You had the counter example about grammar rules, and I do disagree with WHErwin here. Ignoring spelling and grammar rules _is_ objectively incorrect, BUT it doesn't result in objectively bad writing, either. I feel that this is the source of where our opinions differ. I can objectively analize any piece of art by how well it follows certain criteria, but whether that makes the art good or bad is 100% subjective. Art is not objectively worse for not adhering to these rules. How closely a work follows artistic principals _is_ objective, but these artistic rules are not, and were never, meant to judge how "good" art is; they are just meant to describe the art. Grammar rules exist to we can understand each other. As long as meaning is preserved, breaking grammar rules is fine in an artistic context, and believe it or not is pretty common. There are rules that can more consistently give you better results, but works that don't follow those rules are not inherently worse than works that do. To summarize, art can be objectively analyzed but whether the art is good or not is entirely subjective.

@Galaxxyss 9 месяцев назад

I won't lie i went into this expecting it to be the worst video of all time based on the title and thumbnail, and i came out with it being my favorite gd commentary of all time. I've always hated the term objectivity in art, I could rant for hours but I hated to see the music community and GD community combined treat levels like there's an objective set and stone criteria for what makes a "Good" and "Bad" level. To talk about myself for a moment on this #Relateable content, I created my level MISFIRE [furry rap level] as a sort of protest against this narrative of objectivity in art. I wanted to create the most publicly accepted genre of what the community defines as "Objectively good" decoration and gameplay, sporting a clean, in theme list extreme demon that generally would've been conceived as well regarded otherwise. However, the catch being that the song is outlandish and generally regarded as what we be calling #Cringe in an attempt to heavily mix that status quo of what makes an objectively good criteria for a level, which ended up causing a lot of fighting in the community and backlash as planned and expected, despite the level otherwise adhering to what is considered to be "Objective" in its quality standards. Refering to stormfly's objective part, it represents execution, originality, and song representation aswell as all the other basic things. In a sense this was also a way for me to vent out my frustration in the community's backlash to my more serious projects song choices, as those were often seen as "Objectively terrible" [Mori calliope, VOCALOID, etc.], in a sense it was also a way of saying "if you wont let me have fun with the songs i use then neither of us will". But back on the main point, despite everything adhering to their standards, the song heavily set them off and made everyone generally hate the level due to the general perceived cringe nature of the song devaluing the rest of the work, as it is an OBJECTIVELY bad song by most people. Notice that word again, "Objectively" , it all came down to pulling that word into making people devalue the level in its whole. In short, I've always been one myself to say something is "not my taste" or "I dont like it" rather than "its bad". I find my own value and meaning in the levels and music I enjoy, and to see this artform based purely in expression of onesself be put into this idea of an objective truth in good and bad, is truly saddening. Thank you for exceeding my expectations heavily.

@BelfryClock 9 месяцев назад

My *GOD* this guy is *SO* based.

@requiem808 2 месяца назад

real

@llertt 9 месяцев назад

This video feels to liberating to watch because its exactly what I've wanted to hear for such a long time

@roogster 9 месяцев назад

this vid especially relevant considering all the tidal wave debate going on recently to me, as long as a level has at least some effort put into it, its a good level. doesnt mean that i like the level, but it isnt a bad one. and by effort, i dont mean making it your life project and putting ur entire geometrussy into it. even if it was just for fun and something you didnt really think about, its still something. even if a level is "soulless" or "ugly" "lazy" it can still have effort in it. thats just my take tho, and i can totally see why other people have different criteria for their own opinions

@Anxmaly666 9 месяцев назад

Something i have noticed is that the way Robtop decides to rate levels has had a huge effect on what the community deems as objectively "good" and "bad". A level could have a really good atmosphere and well executed ideas that would make it "objectively" good but still only be eligible for a rate or not even get rated at all which feels unfair. Ironically, the people who care the least about getting a rated level often times make really interesting stuff. In my opinion, anything beyond making sure the level is playable and free of bugs shouldn't ever matter.

@iNubble 9 месяцев назад

Okay okay thank you for this video. This is one of the first videos talking about critique that bring up learning fundamentals before figuring out ways to break the rules in a way that is innovative. Like, no form of art can really be classified as "bad" because that is based entirely on a set of made up rules. While there are a loose set of attributes that generally appeal to the masses, that doesn't mean that art that breaks these guidelines is any less appealing as some people might find it more appealing than pieces that follow conventional rules.

@falkeborg9432 4 месяца назад

Your points are incredibly thought out and clever. I’ve had similar thoughts but I wasn’t really able to put it into words. You helped make me more open minded about levels and giving feedback too!

@linenine 9 месяцев назад

OH BOY THIS SCRATCHES MY BRAIN IN THE RIGHT SPOT. this needed to be said. I love this video so much, thank you for making this. POGPILLED.

@supernovaaaa16 9 месяцев назад

starting discussions and (civil) disagreements with reviews is FUN, like when i said i wanted a top 1 with no theme, and i remember a lot of ppl disagreeing when you called tidal wave a nine circles level, seeing your perspective was great and more people need to start showing theirs

@Superbreadking 9 месяцев назад

This is a great video! Really appreciate how insightful your points are in regards to art objectivity.

@quantumvortexpoycow 9 месяцев назад

Literally the video I wanted to do myself. I thank you for this very much! [objectively] the best GD video ever! :D

@GDItsFils 9 месяцев назад

I've been loving your videos recently, and the way you being takes and topics to the table that should be discussed more in this community!! As for about this video, I personally think something in the lines of what you said. Every review is that player's opinion on the level they're reviewing. Of course, there will be similar reviews to levels that are generally praised or hated, because of a general consensus amongst players, but it's never the only opinion. Personal experiences is a thing that I've also never considered for playing a GD level but now that you mentioned makes sense!

@Shlant 9 месяцев назад

another great video mr wherwin! you summed up much of my thoughts about this subject, which ive been thinking about quite a lot since im making a video on my favorite levels of 2.1, but i have a few small things to add. i think that overall, the GD art criticism/analysis scene carries over and amplifies much of the most close-minded real life art criticism. it feels like so many people reviewing levels have the same kind of mindset as people who hate abstract, post-modern, surreal, etc. types of art because it "looks ugly" or "doesnt make sense". also, i think when it comes to geometry dash, the fact that its a video game, and a relatively simple one at that, really hampers many people's ability to appreciate it as art. its kinda similar to the people who will tell anyone who cares about events within the gd community to stop caring because its a "2 dollar square game", just ported over to the art analysis world. i also feel like video games in general are still a lot tougher for people to see as art than more traditional forms of media, though over time i think people are coming to appreciate the artistic merit of games more and more. youve always been one of my favorite GD level reviewers not only due to this lack of attempting to make "objective" criticism, but also because unlike many other level analysts, you dont make me fall asleep with the 10 thousandth video on why limbo or change of scene were made with the intervention of god to be gifted upon humanity lol.

@puzzleguy4265 9 месяцев назад

oh boy what does mr. whirling wind have to say this time

@puzzleguy4265 9 месяцев назад

also don't lie you definitely got the 'tism

@soggycat 9 месяцев назад

another thing to consider while critiquing a level is that your feelings might be unappealing to the viewer so to combat this you should add subway surfers gameplay

@soggycat 9 месяцев назад

good video btw

@xinpa 9 месяцев назад

Really well articulated, I wholeheartedly agree! The whole ”objectivity” thing has been very annoying because mf’s really call you ”biased” if you dont like the hottest and newest thing released lmao

@youraveragebarofsoap8283 9 месяцев назад

I watched Stormfly's video a month or two ago and felt like I generally agreed with it when I first watched it, but since then there's always been some cognitive dissonance in my head that I could never get behind. I didn't understand why the criteria he picked for judging levels stood out among other criteria like you, or additionally why it matters that someone's opinion be "consistent" (a point he emphasizes at the end of the video), or why, if art can be objectively judged by how effectively it achieves its goals (i.e., whether it makes people feel the things the author wanted to), he downplays people's/the author's subjective experiences with the art (like in the extreme demons clip you showed or in his featured levels video). The observations and partial-rationalizations I'd came to had been: - In his ranking videos, like his best form or best RobTop level video, he expresses that he's trying to gauge the community's opinion and not his own, so he provides a variety of survey opinions. Although the prescribed criteria he chose and the linear ranking format still confused me. Maybe he's assuming or guessing at the goals of the author? How accurate can that be? - Maybe when he says the enjoyability of a level to any one person doesn't matter, he's trying to emphasize that there should be more diversity and experimentation in the pool of art. But then how do we know which things should be regularly experimented with and which things should stay constant, since he says there are some objective criteria? What about the circumstantial context a person consumes art in? Why does subjectivity make reviews pointless? I kept just coming away with more questions every time I thought of his videos. After watching your video I'm once again feeling like I agree, but now with much fewer reservations. I felt like your video spoke to me more deeply, mirroring many thoughts I've had about the "human" perspective and differences in people's experiences with art, especially speaking as a person who's possibly neurodivergent and hangs out with other neurodivergent people. I felt like its handling of "appeal" and of art 'achieving its goals' reflected the experiences I've had a lot more. As with Stormfly's video I'm probably going to think about this video over the next few days to see how my thoughts align with it then. I appreciate this video greatly, thanks for making it!

@SuperSomieStuff 5 месяцев назад

This video actually changed my perspective about reviewing levels. I thought that the whole "human perspective is subjective" point was meaningless at first, but now I realize that trying to act like you can make it objective will do nothing but lead to less interesting and convincing reviews. Thanks for making this video!

@andrewconnor9782 9 месяцев назад

I swear there aren't very many of Wherwin's takes that I disagree with (and this is yet another take I agree with). I watch level tier lists bc more often than not the people try to be aware that they are subjectively ranking levels. Just watch EVW, Technical, and Doggie rank their extremes and all of them have a few unpopular opinions on certain levels. There are a FEW takes I disagree with Wherwin on (for example that wherwin thinks the demons list has had a negative impact on the community). But hey, opinions are subjective right?

@president-evil 9 месяцев назад

Really good video. You made it clear to me why subjectivity is more interesting than objectivity and I think that's great

@ShroomiusTheWise 9 месяцев назад

thanks for making this video, from someone who mainly lurks the weird gd drama surrounding creating, it always seemed that the community has a weird relationship with art, with some oddly large figures in the community saying things bordering on literal 1950s modern art criticisms and hinging on objectivity too much.

@zronk 9 месяцев назад

objectivity is a social construct for conforming art critiquing, there for making “objective” statements nothing more then an agreed upon checklist of subjective opinions a group of people had. And then enforcing that checklist on others to mark progression, which usually results in a “higher” quality more widely appreciated art.

@reypatata8466 9 месяцев назад

I always like to enjoy art, wheter it is music, painting or anything else. I have come to piece these kind of conclusions by myself bu i never managed to word them out like you did! I truly enjoyed the way you explained your opinion about the criticism and hypocresy the GD community and view several parts of the argument. Personally, I believe this is kind of rare to see for some reason, so it feels refreshing seeing someone who views a level as what they mean besides being a 2D space on a grid. You gained a sub! :D (sorry for bad english)

@trojan5309 9 месяцев назад

I have been waiting for a LONG time for somebody to call out level critics like that, and you have for sure delivered. I always see levels as experiences and analizing every bit of a level always appeared soulless to me. GD levels aren't some product that you can buy like a game or a movie ticket, it's something artsy that was made by somebody with different views, and so when i go and watch a review, i don't except somebody to tell me if a level is good or not, i always want to hear their opinion and see said level in different light. Great video as always, hope to see more from you.

@niiro2998 9 месяцев назад

Oh Man, I've been waiting for someone to address this for a while now

@vismuth1702 9 месяцев назад

Interesting video for a while I love how you explain the theory of relativity in geometry dash design scene

@GeoMiner2 9 месяцев назад

The other issue with level criticism is that you get the most random of takes physically possible. It makes sense because everyone sees a level differently, but it also just makes it impossible to know what to improve, because someone will manage to call every single detail of your level bad somehow, but also never follow up on what could be better without being super vague. Just my experience though, which clearly was not a fun one.

@lotseven1976 8 месяцев назад

the first intelligent gd player:

@GDGroundflower 9 месяцев назад

Truly, there is no need for level criticism anyway. All levels are unique and beautiful in their own way. Thank you for this video changing my whole perspective!!! ❤

@hyban5596 9 месяцев назад

I was actually thinking about this topic recently regarding the subjectivity of music where the technicality and complexity and other factors have minimal effect on how much I enjoy a song and how it's all about the emotional connection I feel to a piece of music. If you critique gd levels the same way you would critique a song it makes more sense as liking a level is usually about how "fun" it is, how interesting it is, how much you like the decoration, which are based on an emotional response to it.

@Aktimoose 9 месяцев назад

this video is objectively correct

@baconboy69 9 месяцев назад

I knew when I watched that nothingisscary video when it came out something felt off. great video!

@VeggaFR 9 месяцев назад

I've seen this debate in many art forms, notably in music (beatbox competition). Art, whatever the type of art it is, can not be objective, and it's not because you use criteria that it becomes objective. The perception of art differs from one individual to another, depending on his or her culture, experience and sensibility. That's why we need to respect everyone's opinions, and discuss them rather than denigrate others for their opinions.

@TelPhi_ 9 месяцев назад

Banger title, objectively correct as always. In all seriousness, while watching the first half of the video I was reminded of Stormfly's stupid "objective criticism" video from a year ago, which I even commented on at the time to (objectively 😎) debunk it. And lo and behold, the second half of this is all about that video! I'm glad to see it (objectively 😎) debunked in video format with more elaborate arguments for a much larger group of people to see. Thank you for making this video! "Objective" is also a trigger word for me when used in subjective contexts unironically lol. The "objective criticism" crowd seriously needs to stop.

@smjacob. 9 месяцев назад

There is definetly a place for art analysis in a way of judging technical merit, but i think sticking to that threshold certainly undermines the bigger picture. Like in the awesome painting you showed! yeah the perspective was a a little off but the point is not to see it from thst close up. Zooming out still gives the illusion of a castle. Idk what i'm trying to say i just think people get too lost in whether or not something is hard to build versus how efficiently it makes you feel. bottom line this video is a good take

@squid2039 8 месяцев назад

honestly this video kinda opened my eyes a bit. I've always used my own opinion when rating levels but seeing someone fully endorse this and go against the grain was actually so satisfying to watch. especially as someone who likes "bad" levels a lot, seeing someone who isn't negative about everything felt so freeing, especially the segment on melody, I used to love that level when I was younger and I love jank 2.0 levels still

@NamedIShallNotBe 9 месяцев назад

I don’t do any kind of reviews for GD, but I do try to carefully review pieces media from what I think is a fair perspective. Your commentary has helped me realize the best way to analyze and give honest feedback on media without sounding like a soulless figure. This video perfectly captures the kind of thought process that goes into a good review, and I’m honestly glad this video exists as not a lot of people actually consider this kind of stuff. also love the background footage of A Fishing Trip what a level indeed

@baifor7 9 месяцев назад

following the idea of objective art analysis has prevented me from enjoying my own works, and once i stopped being afraid of creative biases i never looked back

@sumgyeojin 9 месяцев назад

YEAH MAN SWEETDUDE ROCKS

@totalrandomness7200 9 месяцев назад

Personally I view objectivity and subjectivity as more of a spectrum than a pair of mutually exclusive opposites. For example, being a cat or dog person is way closer to the subjective end of the spectrum, and thinking silent club's gameplay is bad is much closer to the objective end. Hence, I still value objectivity in reviews of art at least a little bit (like when considering an artist's skill at executing perspective in a drawing, as that's much closer to the objective end than the subjective one). Still found this to be a great video though. Really opened my mind.

@zeenoh5811 9 месяцев назад

This finally clicked for me a few years back. More ppl need to watch this

@landronsc 4 месяца назад

I had someone comment on a video of one of my levels talking about the parts where it was lacking. After exchanging replies back and forth of me asking what i should change and them telling me what, i never ended up changing a thing. I make levels because i enjoy it. I dont make levels so that every single person who plays them thinks they are masterpieces. I am very happy that, for the most part, people do seem to genuinely enjoy them though. I think the creator of the level MOTHMELONS, Valentine, was on to something when they wrote "if im adhering to the standards of others, is it really my own level?" at the end of the level. Ever since i read that, i have followed it.

@notwtr 9 месяцев назад

Simply AMAZING video. Extremely underrated

@zFunnyBoy_ 9 месяцев назад

i love this video so much thank you

@cindersnap. 9 месяцев назад

This!! Everyone says there are objective criteria for judging levels but there’s no reason that what humans happen to like in a geometry dash level should be considered an objective truth. Standards can be helpful in criticism especially if you’re trying to achieve technical skill but there is no one thing that makes a level better. Also I see you mentioned Patricia Taxxon and she has a really good video on this exact topic called “A Closer Look at Art Criticism.”

@hiimandiandi 9 месяцев назад

thanks for being right about everything as always

@joelymammoth9936 9 месяцев назад

thank you for saying this .. i had always been very upset by how people on gd twitter and discord criticized levels, and when stormfly came out with his video about level criticism i got excited that someone felt the way i did. except, after watching it i felt very dissatisfied ... i felt like he got some things right but got so much more wrong in terms of how people should criticize levels. at the time the people i was following on twitter would often bash levels they were playing because they didn't have fun playing it. but they were carrying that energy too far and were being very rude and hateful towards creators because of the way they create levels ... not to mention many of these players would act all high and mighty as if their opinion mattered so much, and if you had a different perspective (as in being a creator appreciating the visuals rather than a player appreciating the gameplay) that you should just be quiet and listen to them because you didn't know enough to form your own opinion. basically, i was upset that people would hate a level so much as to attack people who liked the level. but stormfly's video didn't really make me feel seen at all, it made me even more confused !!!! i appreciate this vid for the reason that it feels like you just corrected everything that bugged me about his video .. anyway bye !!!

@Synactive 9 месяцев назад

finally a not braindead video about art criticism in gd

@landronsc 4 месяца назад

This video needs millions more views. I hate that this has only been seen by 17k people (at this point in time)

@quija_v 3 месяца назад

I fully agree. This video gave me an entirely new perspective of appreciating the different views humans have. This even applies to art criticism outside of GD and could therefore serve a good purpose for people outside of GD who review art.

@Traayblox 9 месяцев назад

I cant with this title lmfao Insane title aside, this is a great video 👍

@SunshysContentRanch 9 месяцев назад

thank you for giving your objectively correct opinions on this topic, theyre refreshing in the sea of incorrect opinions that we call home :)

@ytac-ss7vz 9 месяцев назад

Interesting video by the way. I think the Rating System is definitely a part as to why a lot of players review levels "objectively", and I think the excessive importance of rates in this community comes from the existance of Creator Points and the competitiveness of it, which also leads to more generic/bland levels which also lead to generic reviews and WOW

@dem1nez 9 месяцев назад

i guess now we can understand aeonair when he gives level a rating LOL

@dem1nez 9 месяцев назад

good video tho

@Eagleleadsmc 8 месяцев назад

This title makes no sense at first, but when you watch the video, it goes hard

@eternalsolace46 9 месяцев назад

I hate when people basically say opinions are objective not just in GD but any form of media

@cyanix0 9 месяцев назад

"objective opinion" mfs when i throw a heavy object at them

@redroverohsix4428 9 месяцев назад

I just wait for the day when we have a npesta for video reviews or in depth analysis on levels (that aren’t like dev commentaries like what Mindcap and Icedcave have done). Mainly for having a good channel to watch stuff for and hear interesting opinions but also inspire hundreds of others to try it maybe. I’ve always wondered why it hasn’t happened yet

@Moxie2017 9 месяцев назад

Congrats on 10K WHErwin

@The3arthquake 9 месяцев назад

bro "you are fuck map" made me laugh way harder than it should have

@Dergy 3 месяца назад

3:55 Bro really went out of his way to find the « and » symbols for a silly gd tweet

@truebino 9 месяцев назад

You make much more sense in vids than in discord convos

@apexblodhunder 9 месяцев назад

17 MINUTES of pure AWESOMENESS I AGREE with EVERYTHING and I havent SEEN a SECOND of the video

@noodleshelf 9 месяцев назад

as someone whos trigger word is subjective, this video opened my eyes a lot. of course, ive never been like "100% objective", though i always HATE it when people say art is 100% subjective. but honestly, i agree with most, if not all of this video. do i think art is 100% subjective now? hell no, that would mean just saying some recent tab level is good without any argument to back it up. i still think there are objective factors to consider, however they arent the end all be all things you should follow no matter what. there are ways you can make good levels following conventional standards, and vice versa.

@akwire4253 9 месяцев назад

I will say that i relate to cherry teams frustration here a little i find much of cherry teams work to be really interesting and play with really cool ideas a group of people in this community treat glow style levels, megacollabs, creating teams, and top extreme demons as being passionless, corporate-feeling, generic, incohesive, etc if you can understand movies as an art form, you can understand megacollabs it is possible for a team of people to work together to achieve a vision or an idea. Megacollabs can be created with a collective passion for its idea. generally speaking, most of the levels made by this community are made with passion and not for commercial reasons since the only possible way to make money is perhaps through youtube views, so i dont think its fair to call the levels or teams corporate-esque. what someone finds generic is subjective, and i cant really and dont want to argue that, but i can say that megacollabs arent inherently incohesive either. in fact, i think kocmoc is very cohesive. the level is well directed and it feels like the level is strung together not only by a cohesive idea, but also cohesive colors, and each part having good transitions between parts built by separate creators to ease you between any slight style changes ive always found it really frustrating to see these critiques on levels that i very much like where they sort of frame these levels as not being a part of what they consider, like, the "high art" of geometry dash just because they are difficult levels and appeal to a part of the community perhaps less interested in viewing gd levels as art i think theres a certain amount of pretentiousness in it, really people should probably address their stylistic biases towards these styles of levels rather than just dismissing them as passionless all the time. this has been a frustration of mine for a really long time now and im glad to get the chance to talk about it

@erroraftererror8329 8 месяцев назад

I would add to this by pointing out how categorical this way of thinking is. There’s very little in the way of abstract concepts that actually can be discretely categorized. Opinions and personalities are continua. Trying to be “objective” seems to be trying to make a complex subject way way simpler than it should be. That seems to be going in the opposite direction.

@Shadowhisky 9 месяцев назад

THANK YOU. I hate when people say that a level is "objectively bad." You're literally making an oxymoron when saying that xD. I don't get how people still think there is objectivity when evaluating the beauty of an art piece

@DonutBurger 9 месяцев назад

Wow, I did not know there were people who attempted to rate levels objectively instead of subjectively. I cannot fathom why anybody would do that, that sounds so boring. If everybody rated levels objectively, all reviews would be the same. Also, good video. You make a lot of good points.

@zilucy 9 месяцев назад

i think people want to think of their opinions as objective so that they can be the “most correct” but it’s just more fun to rate stuff based on vibes

@wwatermelon15 9 месяцев назад

Art is everything, the arrangment of the objects, the cleanist of the room, the emotions it been put in, and the message or the meaning of it of the person who made it. -source: me

@IconicGD 9 месяцев назад

I do understand your perspective of art criticism and I would agree if geometry dash had gameplay. From a game design standpoint with gp, yes you can do blind timings and yes some people will enjoy it, but for the majority of the community would not like it at all and you would limit a large audience if it was for example a 6* level. Decoration kinda goes the same way but to a much lesser extent. There are parts in decoration that yes you could do and there will be a small audience who likes it but a majority wont. An example is a recent tab level that spams blocks and random objects. New players might think its cool but a very small percent of people will like it if they have played the game a bit. I think people make objective standards to much more easily rate levels on a more geeneral basis and so that they dont have to play the level which could skew their opinion. Lets take stormfly's extreme demo video for example. If stormfly used enjoyment as a meteic, than he would have to beat every single extreme demon in the game to properly rate everything. I do agree with most of your points tho its just that I think from a game design standpoint there will unfortunately be some do's and dont's

@KaziaGD 9 месяцев назад

ngl I've been thinking of making level reviews for a while, but everytime I think about making one I just know they won't be as good as yours 🙏

@TelPhi_ 9 месяцев назад

Loser mentality lol DO THEM ANYWAY and see your work MAGICALLY improve with time with the help of a little-known concept some people call "LEARNING WITH YOUR MISTAKES" I'd definitely subscribe if you started that series :)

@KaziaGD 9 месяцев назад

@@TelPhi_ I was joking I'll definitely get to making those lmao

@TelPhi_ 9 месяцев назад

@@KaziaGD lol glad to know, it's just that a bunch of people unironically think like that, so I thought it was genuine :p

@valentinkoch6972 9 месяцев назад

I you're making some good points here, and i definetly agree that in the GD community, we are way to focused on a couple of objective criteria that dont really leave a lot of room for experimentation in levels. Since you mentioned patricia taxxon, I recommend CJ the X to you. They have two great videos looking at the value of both subjectivity and objectivity respectively. The videos are called "objectively bad art" (mentioned in the stormfly video) and "subjectivity in art" (which mentions the patricia taxxon video) While I do agree with most of your point, I think the idea that "everything is subjective" is also not necessarily true. I do think one can make a good argument about why some levels are better than others. For me personally what matters most how an idea is executed and whether that idea was good in the first place. One thing I disagree with you on is the authorial intent part. Yes, if you are only considering what the creator intended, you are missing out on a lot of cool perspecties. However, if I love a level due to its complexity and have a deep connection with it, it would feel bad to find out that the creator just randomly spammed a bunch of objects with no particular intent. Im not trying to convince anyone that art is objective. But I am also deeply dissatisfied with the notion that "nothin matters and everything is subjective." A healthy balance can be found, which is what you argue at the end of your video. Criticism should be backed up. You should reference the level when you talk about it. Look at an entire level and dont just analyzeit part by part. That's my idea of good criticism.

@Ezel_142 9 месяцев назад

I never understood why people usually striked for "objectivity" in art criticism, because in reality, there's no specific objective opinion, except maybe stuff like "this level works/doesn't work", that's it lol. Objectivity has always been the wrong word to describe what people often try to express in their reviews - it's standards. Standards are what we as people have accepted to be things we find the most valuable or pleasant in art, or stuff that makes it accessible or enjoyable for the majority of the audience, but those aren't rules, just guidelines. Many artists and level creators often try to subvert people's exceptations through unconventional ways of creating, and that's what makes art so interesting.

@willvy5450 9 месяцев назад

There are some objective criteria you could judge a level by, but none of them are about the quality of the art itself. Optimization is objective and can be objectively well done or completely fumbled. Everything else about a level (that I can think of right now) is subjective, and no matter how bad someone might think a certain style of gameplay or decoration is, there will always be someone else on the edge of the bell curve with the exact right taste to enjoy it. You have to strike a balance between recognizing the impacts of your taste on a level and identifying flaws in levels that would affect the majority of the playerbase's enjoyment (the funny ship in the Janus Miracle)

@carbon98 9 месяцев назад

long rambly comment warning actually really true, the context/story of a level lends so much to how much value our minds give the level. just like other forms of art. while i may like kanyes music for its production, quality, and flow, i still value more the story behind something like j dilla's the factory/dont cry or nujabes' luv[sic] hexalogy, despite a listener hearing a worse (to most people) song. The backstory behind a level made by a popular youtuber or an old creator may have more value to people who understand the context and story behind them, rather than an unknown creator without such story. eg: wysteria and nine circles are subjectively, to most experienced gd players, more valued than something like a recent rated level, despite objectively higher creation standards

@Quinimunn 9 месяцев назад

to be honest to me levels that just try to experiment as much as possible are my favourite. old impossible levels pre 1.9 have always been interesting to me since the limits that they had back then limited them so much so they had to think hard to make hard gameplay, making the entire level just...creative. if a level has unique gameplay then i will like it, even if the gameplay is absolute dogshit for most people.

@Euthymania 9 месяцев назад

Very good video. One thing that I want to note is that I think objevtive statements about the quality of an aesthetic object are possible depending on what meaning you aim to convey with such a statement. I may for example say that "pizza is good" despite not being very fond of it and still be correct if what I mean by the statement is that most people enjoy eating pizza. This I think is a perfectly reasonable use of the term "good" here, and given the right context, wouldn't be confusing. We use normative language in this manner all the time. Where the issue lies is when people assume that only one particular use is possible and start talking past eachother. Because even if pizza is good in the way mentioned above, someone who dislikes pizza and thinks "pizza is good" in some way implies him having to like pizza, would rightfully take issue with the satement.

@alcyone7777 9 месяцев назад

8:12 is wild 😭

@tex5821 9 месяцев назад

Did Hitler made that drawing

@Vaea4 9 месяцев назад

@@tex5821yes

@alcyone7777 9 месяцев назад

@@tex5821 I believe so yes

@Anxmaly666 9 месяцев назад

The 1940s were wild too

@Beulraeki 9 месяцев назад

Numptaloid is a great level reviewer in my opinion, and he does it very entertainingly as well.

@backseatgaming2145 9 месяцев назад

Art is expressing yourself, it can't by any means be objective. GD levels can have an objective component in them, for example you can objectively judge the gameplay by how buggy it is and in which ways, but whether this makes the level better or worse is and will always be a subjective opinion.

@234zuscoutjango9 9 месяцев назад

I feel like at the root of the entire problem is just the fact that a lot of people see art just as "things that are pretty to hear/look at", and if it does not look good or is pleasent to hear, it's not good art. It's a really shallow view and leads to shallow videos.

@TheGalaxyWings 9 месяцев назад

You can't judge art fully objectively, but it isn't fully subjective either, there are still some things that we all collectively see as good or bad, although it's hard to define what these things are.

@zod1acgd 9 месяцев назад

I havent watched it yet but i know this is gonna be a good video

@Laskli 9 месяцев назад

the stanley parable

@CarrotIsBad 9 месяцев назад

I'm not really involved in the gd community aside from watching videos every now and then, and when it comes to the game itself, I launch it to beat the weekly demon if I can remember to do that. I've never really liked how the community reviews levels because of this focus on objectivity because it kinda ruins levels for me. Whenever I used to see lists on best and worst levels or whatever, I'd go play the level that it's ranked the best and come away disappointed. Even if I hate a level, am I supposed to just say "yes, this is good because it's supposed to be good?" Level creation, or really any creative endeavor, is art and trying to understand it objectively is silly. What did YOU think of the level? Tell me that instead of how original a certain part is or how good the art in the background is. I prefer simpler levels since it's easier on my eyes, but since they don't have insane decoration, they're objectively bad right? I feel like it's ignoring what people think just for the sake of appealing to some list of criteria, but it's not like a list of criteria is going to be playing the level, people are.