Michael Jordan and LeBron James have been locked in the GOAT Debate battle for seemingly the last 10 years and recently a couple of ESPN analysts gave some pretty spicy takes regarding the debate. Hope you enjoy.
True. Plus the Dream Team rejection. He already said before he doesn't match for MJ because he is matched during the prime of Bird and Magic. Pity Isaiah.
That is the truth! I remember seeing lbj put his head in the sand at pivotal points with the Cavs and Miami. Score single digits in a finals game? Unheard of with MJ.
Extremely underrated and unused point. It goes in step with how many times have we seen Lebron flop. There are highlight reels on Lebron flopping. Bronsexuals will say Jordan flopped. And we’ll see the same 2-3 videos that are a huge reach that Jordan flopped. Jordan never quit. Jordan never faked a foul.
thats the truth I always say that when it gets hard he dissappears. he just quits. I think hes scared of trying hard and losing end of game situations he don't drive cause he don't wanna have to shoot free throws at the end. Lebron shoots 19% on game winning shots Jordan is 49%
When Jordan took over, he stopped hall-of-famers from winning championships. He was the mountain that they had to climb, and they failed. Barkley, Malone, Ewing, Miller, etc. That's my argument for Jordan being the GOAT, and I'm sticking to it.
Rodney Guy Jordan played in 1984 so you saying no other team won except chicago from 1984 up until 1998 ? Jordan didn't stop no one because 1995 Shaq orlando team defeated Jordan in the playoffs to go too the Finals..
@@whiskers11234 I said when Jordan took over. Once he started winning he was unstoppable. And yeah, Orlando did beat the Bulls but it was after Jordan came out of retirement.
@@whiskers11234 Stop, you know what you're doing lol that was a rusty Jordan and still averaged 30+. What happened in 96? Magic got swept, it was a brutal beat down
Isiah is mad about Jordan bouncing his ass out of the playoffs. He had a terrible bad sportmanship attitude after that loss is what lead him to being banned from joining Dream Team.
Technically, Isiah own coach, Chuck Daly, did not want him on the Dream Team because he undermined Daly’s authority during his time as Pistons coach. ru-vid.com/video/%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BE-ghVlhS4ARZw.html
Lmao. Should've seen the interview from Isiah Thomas admitting that he regrets not shaking hands with Jordan during the 1991 ecf when they left the game instead of shaking hands with the bulls lol
If we just look at the stats, we will be wrong wrong wrong. Simply put, MJ did exactly what his team was needing from him to win championships. If Jordan would have just focused on building all stats around, he wouldn't have six rings now. The GOAT debate is vague. Why? You can't compare players from different eras, different positions, different playbook, different situations. But if you want to compare greatness, then let's talk about the impact that a player has made in the league. Jordan has created the greatest impact for over four decades. We are all still talking about him more than any other player in today's NBA and the last 40 years, and he retired 20 years ago! Does that alone doesn't tells you something?
I think your point about the goat is good. Comparing across eras is an almost impossible thing to do. I disagree with idea of greatness as measured by the impact on the league. I agree that MJ had the greatest influence on the nba. He's probably the most significant player in league history. I've always said Magic is the most important player in league history, Jordan is the most influential. But Jordan's impact, I think, has more to do with his timing in history. He came at time where media was exploding, marketing was taking over, and the league was expanding. And so, he was the face of the league and among the first players to really be in everyone's homes. He had the marketing machines of the NBA, nike, Gatorade, Wheaties, sports illustrated, all pushing him as the greatest. My personal opinion is that whoever was the best player in the league at that time would have been the face of the league, and their star would have been raised above all others. But with that...your flatly wrong that Jordan did whatever his team needed. He did that for 6 seasons....maybe. but mostly, Jordan just scored. His game alone never translated to winning in Chicago.
@@stupidrules1000 I agree with you when defining the success of a team, which is not just based on a player contribution. The whole team together contributed to the Chicago Bulls success. But I disagree with you when you say that Jordan just scored. He was both one of the best offensive players and one of the best defensive players. His game was in both sides of the court. So, I disagree with you on this. Not to mention that he led different stats categories. Now, we also have to respect the opinion of most of the NBA legends, journalists, critics, fans, etc. Most of them still agree MJ is the greatest player of all time. While he is my favorite player of all time, I don't think there is a GOAT. I believe there is no way to say who is the GOAT. But we agree he is the most influential of all time.
@@stupidrules1000 actually I do think impact in the game defines greatness. What we all love about Michael and is also why until this day 20years after his retirement that we still can’t stop talking about him is what he has done with the game that resonates with us and fans. His mindset and attitude. That drives and motivates fans and kids all around the world to admire and inspire to be him. Michael turned the Chicago bills into a 6 time winning organization. And he wasn’t paid much at the bulls. But his loyalty and determination to stick to Chicago is what created his legacy and dynasty that was unmatched and what resonated with us fans. U don’t see any other player now close to re enacting the same situation and atmosphere. Most just hop around for money. Which is of course their own decision. But as fans we like stories we like to cheer the underdog. I think that is what resonates with us which is why many players inspired to be like Michael. Kobe iverson etc. that was what made the nba great and what made Michael great and still talked about till today. Because no one else today has replicated that.
The reason Lebron can't pass Jordan is because the highlights you see from Jordan are the 1st time someone is doing that in a basketball game. We had never seen anything like that before. Similar to Steph Curry. We've never seen that guy before
You must be young. Did you see Connie Hawkins, Dr. J (who MJ admired and emulated), and Pistol Pete? Wilt (the best professional athlete, perhaps ever) is recorded as the first to dunk from the foul line, and the NBA changed the rule so he could not do that anymore; his foul shots use to be him jumping from the foul line and dunked. Nobody else was doing that. IMHO, Dr. J was the most graceful player I have ever seen, and MJ a close 2nd. Also, as a man, Dr. J was a smooth, cool dude, graceful in demeanor. Before Magic & Bird, Dr. J was the face of the NBA.
@@private-nobody6667 He probably thinks that Jordan was the first to dunk from the free-throw line in the dunk contest too...lol (Which, to be fair, I also thought as a kid in the 90's. Those Sports Illustrated "come fly with me" videos would have you thinking that Jordan invented dunking).
Jordan whole career was elevated by ESPN. ESPN used Jordan to launch its network. That's when everything changed. There will never be a goat because everything gets better with time. Some people just like to hold on to the past and don't want to accept the present. And think about the racial aspect of it. Changed the rules when Kareem was turning pro and all the other racest people in the stands. The league changed the rules in Jordan's favor. You get close to him it's a foul. Remember when Jordan was shooting 20+ free throws a game. No goat just best in their era.
The sheer ignorance towards Jordan is hilarious 😂😂 let's remember what happened to baby Bron Bron in 2011 IN HIS PRIME against Jason Kidd (38 yr old and 6'4), Jason Terry ( 34 and 6'2) and JJ barea ( 5'10 and 27 yr). " Imma leave it at that" Pork.. I mean Perk.
@@dynamic6645 look at you, you get on MJ for having two less points than Pippen in a game 5 in 91 where they ended up winning the title yet you have all kinds of excuses for LBJ getting outscored by Jason freaking Terry and at one point JJ Barea. Look at yourself.
So I'm an old head and from Detroit and I remember the interviews Zeke used to give after bulls games and the amount of salt (like we all were salty AF about losing) he displayed on local post game interviews made it obvious he hated Micheal. Here's my theory why. Before Zeke, it was common knowledge that you can win with a guard as your guy and Thomas was really the first to disprove that notion. We go back to back and Zeke is one of the top guys in the league and then Mike happened. Knocked out of the playoffs and in one of the most embarrassing weak moves in league history, they walk off the court and don't even shake the refs hands. It's clownish and made me appreciate Joe D even more as he stayed and did what men do. Remember at that point, you were in rare company of you 3peat and nothing was stopping the Pistons from doing just that once again as they owned the Lakers at that point. So Thomas is speaking emotional nonsense. He knows full well a pile of stats does not make you the goat. The great equalizer for measuring someone's career is Per game stats as each player in the top ten played significantly less than Kobe, LeBron, and Kareem. Not to mention the head start coming out of high school. Per game stats has LeBron ahead in rebounds and assist but Jordan kills him in every other stat and almost all advanced stats. Never mind the extra MVP and 2 chips in 6 less years.
That's partially true. 1st Zeke wasn't the first their were many pg before him Magic being 1 that took the chip. The argument wasn't pg it was dominating sg. The theory was couldn't win with best player being a sg and without dominating center. Jordan broke the theory. Needless to say all the white collar theories have been proven WRONG. It's imbalanced to use just per game. It's best to go per game by your position. Old time centers would naturally have a better per game percentage because they shot closer to the basket most around 50%, it's rare to have a sg, sf or pg shoot 50%. Prime example Steph is the undisputed best shooter of all time but he is nowhere near highest percentage he's only shot 50% once, while Kwame Brown did it 8 times.
@@CreditEditors we will disagree on both halves. It's always been conventional wisdom that you couldn't win with a guard as your guy. The mold that Jordan broke was being a dominant scorer and winning. Magic was 6'9 and didn't fit either way. And let's not forget the MVP Kareem was on that team. Trust me it was Zeke. Why else is he so highly regarded? Second part, that is why there's something called advanced stats. True shooting percentage is what stops DeAndre Jordan from being the most efficient shooter in history. I do believe that is what your argument against per game being the goat factor? Per game is what makes Magic the greatest pg over Stockton. Anyone can acquire attrition stats.
@@YoMrRice I'm sorry that simply is not true. You must have forgotten about Bob Cousy, and Tiny Archibald. Zeke was not the first. Zeke only led the Pistons in scoring during 1 chip. They had Dantley and Lambeer was an all star. Zeke is regarded because he was a good player. That's it. Magic never played anything other than pg accept the injury game. So he can't be dismissed because he was tall. I never argue per game unless position is part of the equation. Magic is nowhere near the greatest pg. Magic had the greatest "TEAM."
@@CreditEditors magic had the greatest team to display his skills. He is still the greatest PG. Let's keep it that way otherwise some analogy will be made with MJ and the Bulls being the best team... That's what Zeje said too
@@bravobessa3684 Magic Johnson probably had 5 of the top 75 players of all time on his team. Magic had more great players than any other player in history. The only team that had more stars than what Magic had is the Dream team. No one in all honesty would say Jordan had the greatest players on his team
Lebron was 19, Jordan was 22 when they were drafted during their time periods. Had Jordan never taken those two years off and if his dad never died, Jordan would have the highest number in Steals, and points. Jordan averaged 32.6 points in 1993 so if he played in 1994 and a full 1995 he would had scored at least 6200 more points being even more than Kareem. Now I'm including the regular season and the Playoffs plus finals. Jordan would had gotten Number 1 in Steals, 8 Championships, 8 Finals MVP, 7th Regular Season MVP, and the MOST points scored in the NBA in short amount of time playing 14.5 seasons, yes it's more like 14.5 seasons than 15.
I partly disagree with this statement because Jordan did not sit out two full years. He came back in the second year and the Bulls ended up losing to Penny, Shaq, and the Orlando Magic in the playoffs. They lost 4-2. That counts. It's rarely talked about but that's history. So 8 championships was never on the table. It should also be considered that taking that time off benefited him because playing those extra games could have led to injury if we're speaking hypothetically. Also, had they made it to the finals with Jordan, the Houston Rockets was a team that could have possibly beaten them that first year Jordan missed with the talent they had and all of the fatigue and complacency factors that come into play. We can't give Jordan anything without also considering the other side of what could have been.
@@koreyking3056 This is the problem with your argument. You use probably and jump to conclusions because it serves your point. Jordan returned in March 19, of 95. You really believe that if he didn’t take the time off and played through, that he wouldn’t have beat the Orlando Magic? A team the Bulls swept the following year on their way to his fourth ring. You actually tried saying that MJ who only had one serious injury early in his career, a player who NEVER load managed and played in pretty much every game might’ve gotten hurt? That’s your logic? So 8 is off the table because of your circumstantial evidence? Sorry bro. It doesn’t hold water. I got big respect for Hakeem but those series most likely would’ve gone 6.
🔥“If I get the ball, you have mercy on whatever I wanna do. There’s nothing you can say or do about it if I’m on my game. The feeling is, you own the ball, you own the game, you own the guy whose guarding you, you can actually play’em like a puppet.” ~ Micheal Jordan The GOAT 🐐 🔥
My two cents: when you had two defensive powerhouse teams, the Pistons and the Knicks (90s) put their ENTIRE FOCUS on stopping Air Jordan, the Pistons actually calling it "The Jordan Rules", it would seem those two teams understood how essential it was to stop him, and I'm racking my brain to see any team during Lebron's years that were that good defensively. Plus, the rules that allowed those two teams to be dominant defensively are way different than now. And after those first 6 years of climbing the mountain, his last 6 full years in Chicago were championship years, Finals MVP each time. Bird, Magic, Kareem, LeBron, never had a run like that. Making these arguments seem that we're pissing on LBJ and we know he's a top 5 five player. But my eyeballs saw MJ's whole career, including the college career at UNC where his last 2 years he WAS THE DOMINANT PLAYER IN COLLEGE BASKETBALL. Michael Jordan is hands down the greatest we ever saw, and it's not even close, and Isiah's crap words come from a man that got displaced in his home city.
Except they didn't put their entire focus on stopping Jordan. The pistons focused on stopping Pippen. But also, the idea of focusing on stopping 1 player meant something completely different when Jordan was playing than while LeBron had played. Jordan never had to face a zone defense. Jordan never actually had 4 or 5 defenders basically guarding him. Actually watch how defenses play lebron most games. He's playing 4 on 1. Jordan barely had to face a double team, because back then you couldn't really shade to a player to help, you had actually double team leaving an open shooter. Today, lebron has 4 people shading towards him openly. But also, let's not pretend that defense in the league was allaround better in thr 90s. It wasn't. The league was at it's weakest then (with like 6 or 8 expansion teams in like 8 seasons). And even if you think that the knicks and the pistons were these alltime great defensive teams...the bulls didn't play them every night. So the knicks could defend (maybe), but the hornets? The nets? The cavs? The hawks? Come on. People really act like MJ played Ewing and Hakeem every night...and that Ewing and Hakeem were primarily guarding him.
@@stupidrules1000 ... You got everything ass backwards and it shows you never saw him play early in his career. Learn how the Celtics and other teams used to play what was called floating zones back in those days. Jordan dropped 63 on them in a close loss. That is because zones play into his strengths (I'd be more than happy to explain how you beat the zone). And then you'll discredit every player from that era with this "expansion era" mentality while not explaining how Lebron ruled in the "leastern" conference for most of his career, while trying to stack his rosters. Very convenient. I also like how you tryn explain away Jordan getting double or triple-teammed on a nightly basis because you don't understand how the rules work. He routinely had to deal with that pretty much his whole career. The triangle helped to minimize this some and that didn't begin until the 89-90 season. Lastly, Dumars AND Isaiah stated that Detroit focused on fouling Jordan hard and throwing the help defense to him while making his teammates beat them. How in the phukk would they focus on Scottie Pippen when he was a bench player in year 1 and a non-factor in year 2? You kids kill me with these goddamn suppositions.
Thomas hates MJ so he will not call him the goat, he has a grudge against him. And Kareem was playing with another top 5 player of all time. It makes the game a lot easier. MJ did more than LBJ or Kareem, in less time and with less help. Case closed.
Only player that has a chance at MJ's Legacy is Giannis. He certainly has a long way to go but he's on track to become GOAT if he can somehow sustain his current level of play for another 7 or 8 years.
13:30 for him to say that Jordan never played with players who r more athletic now than during his time is crap...Jordan played with many great athletes, whether they held championships n had amazing records or not...also, Jordan sticked with his team to win 6 championships...LBJ had to go from one team to the next and next just to win championships
@@geralddecosta320 there was a guy named Spud Webb who won an NBA slam dunk contest that not only did Dominique Wilkins play in Jordan did also and spud is 5'7" Mugsy Bogues was 5'3" and was known to dunk during practices Allen Iverson was 5'10" and was Dunking they only made him 6'0" for some odd reason, it's something they did they did the same with Terrell Brandon who was 5'9" a 6 time all NBA player for the Cavs They did the same they did for Charles Barkley when he was really 6'4" and not 6'6' All during the time Jordan played
I like what you said about Lebron's top competitors winning chips during his prime. Zeke, Magic and Bird all won before Jordan but once he got to the top no superstar won until he retired. Even though it's still essentially a team thing, when Jordan and the Bulls figured it out they stuck with it and even after losing to the Magic in 95 they worked out the kinks in their roster but kept the team's identify and style of play which produced the 72 win season - when Lebron and the Heat figured it out he split coz of what the Spurs did to em. Arguably the biggest difference between Lebron and Jordan lies in the intangibles - stuff like leadership, perseverance and temperament.
@@straightlead8 I'm not making excuses. The Bulls couldn't beat the Celtics and Pistons with Jordan as the only All-Star. No one's denying that. My point is that once Scottie and Horace levelled up plus they complementary pieces fit together it Jordan reached a level only retirement could take him down from. As for Hakeem. You have a case for the 95 title but Jordan was retired in 94. And the Rockets beat the Knicks in 94, a team that would've never got to the finals if Jordan didn't retire after 93.
@@kagisosebetso9527 he means just because lebron had to face the warriors in the finals 4 years in a row that he had a tougher time his whole career than mj when in reality lebrons only competiton was in the finals and he has a losing record and has come up short in a lot of those series and individual games throughout his (ill admit illustrious) playoff career when in mjs case he faced stiffer competition throughout the playoffs including the finals and you can only point to a handful of games where you could say mj didnt do enough for his team or didnt step up when they needed him
The most ironic and hilarious part of this video was Kendrick reading what some "anonymous player" (obviously Isiah Thomas) says about Oakley and Mason not being athletic enough to play in Lebron's era when Kendrick himself played in Lebron's era and was by far a worse player then both of them 😂
Bro you hit the nail on the key. Kendrick months ago came out saying how Russ is Mr OKC and was disrespecting Durant the entire time & all Durant said was "perk you avg 4ppg in those finals against the heat" I swear perk literally down plays people that were better than him in all eras....dude needs to realize talking down on rings and bball players is a stupid thing fans do. He's literally talking about people that played in his position....he should LITERALLY feel offended by what Isiah Thomas said lmao unless he believes he was better than Oakley....
Charles Oakley despite he's mainly remembered as a bruiser enforcer, is actually a better shooter, better FT shooter and great box out rebounder than Perkins.
Oakley averaged 14 and 11 at his prime and also was an all star once. How's Perkins's individual stats and achievements? Yeah he won a ring as a roleplayer but 1 on 1 he has nothing against Oakley. Heck, if prime Oakley and prime Perkins played against each other Oak would make Perkins cry.
@@phleth2870 you must’ve forgot, Isiah winning record stands , only because once he got swept as a defending champion by Jordan, Isiah and the Pistons were never heard from again
@@gnnacharles1 I guess you have the same excuse for his record against Bird, or they got injured/retired then Jordan started winning championships. 🤷 People bring up all the time how Jordan had a tougher eastern conference, because he had to go through the tough bad boys and Celtic teams... They conveniently forget he never beat those Celtis, and only beat those bad boy teams once, with losing records against both how exactly did he go through them to win titles?
Isiah Thomas who was kept off the dream team by Jordan , taking Lebron's side over Jordan. I'm shocked. MJ played every game as hard as he could the whole game. He didn't take off strategic games or go half ass in some games like Lebron. He sure as hell never quit on his team like Lebron has done over than over. I watched MJ from the day he walked into the league , he is the GOAT period.
LeBron James’ longevity is overrated. Just being honest. After spending my whole life watching all time greats like Larry Bird, Michael Jordan, even Isiah Thomas put their bodies on the line for the game. Sacrificing their very health to win. I’ve never seen that from LeBron. He always took the easy road and opted for photo op moments that make him appear to be doing something great. His era has been an exercise in corporate media influence over the masses. The scary part is that it’s worked to a degree. Keep exposing the lies
Getting to the finals was a cakewalk in the east and he knew it. The problem is for him getting to the finals was good enough. Winning or losing on the biggest stage makes no difference to Lebron as long as he is on that stage for the world to see.
@@John-78 I hear you. I think a lot of that has to do with the media constantly absolving him from any and all blame involving winning it all. They created this narrative that “Lebron did all he can, he just didn’t get enough help”. It’s so lame that fans took that load of crap and been running with it ever since
@@jaoh6659 they do but in round about ways, they say he has vibranium in his veins 🤔. Or after he took that trip to Miami (during 2nd time with Cavs) or during the skinny lebron time they hinted at it again smh 🤦♂️
You don’t pass someone by plying longer. Lebron stats are meaningless when you look at what little effort he makes on defense to conserve energy to play offense only
@@Unknown-User44 6 All NBA Defenses in 19 years isn't incredible. He hasn't played defense in 8 years when he was 29. Jordan was All Def 1st team at 35.
@@remnant8898 there is a difference between not being an elite defender for 8 years and not playing defence at all. It’s actually a joke. Michael is the goat by a long way, but u just lie on Lebron to make Michael better. U don’t need to. Just tell the truth and say Lebrons great but he ain’t th goat. U ain’t gotta hate and lie. Lebron stopped playing defence consistently I would say in 19. But then in 20 he played defence very well that year but then last 2 years he hasn’t played defence much at all I agree. But u knock Lebron for not playing defence in year 19 when MJ wasn’t even playing. U knock Lebron for not playing defence in year 18 or being lazy in year 18 or not being the best in year 19 when MJ wasn’t playing in year 16. Michael is th goat. But stop judging Lebron harsher than u judge Michael, it’s stupid that u are harsher on a guy that is 2nd or 3rd ever than number 1. MJ is the goat so I hold him to the highest standards and then Lebron to 2nd highest. But ur always comparing MJ to Lebron in year 17 and 18 and 19. It’s a jk. MJ the goat but stop bringing Lebron down just to prove ur point
@@daviddowling2822 LeBron plays no defense. What're you talking about? If you watch the games, you can easily see how disengaged he is, and how he allows his man to get by him. He's one of the worst defenders in the league right now, and its not even a debate. He wasn't consistent in 15,16, got exposed in 17 and 18, and has been downright atrocious from 19 ((he was 35 in 2019)on. And I don't need to judge him harsher, what I see on the court speaks for itself. How about you stop being so emotionally invested in another man, that you need to make pleas on his behalf? What I said was fact. Jordan was playing on the oldest team in the league and was still the best two way player in the game at 35. And for the record, Bron aint 2nd or 3rd alltime. That's subjective.
@@remnant8898 Love how u say Bron not being 2 or 3 all time is subjective but then say michaels the goat and that ain’t subjective. MJ is the gist and ur delusional if u say he isn’t, but Lebron is top 3 and ur also delusional if u day he isn’t. Also can u stop comparing 35 year old Lebron to 4p35 year old Mike, Mike at 35 was in year 12, Lebron at 35 was in year 17. Like Jordan is the goat there’s no debate u don’t need to on the sly keep tryna put down Lebron just to prove ur point.
WHY is this a debate, Mj never flopped, fake injuries, load manage or joined superteams to ring chase, 9 all defense teams, 3steal titles, 6chips, 6mvps, 10scoring titles:19yrs & bron still has done none of this💯
MJs greatest strength is that his game will always speak for itself, and he has the videos online of his game for people from future generations to watch for themselves, his game will always defend against these narratives and pointless debates edit - for fucks sake full games are online too not just highlights lol
But you have to recognize that the videos online are not comprehensive. Like, nowhere do they regularly show Jordan turning it over against the Magic in the final minute of the elimination game to cost the bulls the series. Like, left to online games, Jordan never missed a shot, never turned the ball over and made every last second shot that the bulls ever needed. Maybe that's one of the reasons people regard Jordan so highly. We have no film of wilt, we have too much film of LeBron, and we only have Jordan's highlight reels.
@@chiyamthetruthhurts4sum467 how is that relevant? You can't judge a career with just the highlights. People only play Jordan's highlights. They act like he only played 6 seasons, he won the championship every year he played, that he never missed a game winning or game tying shot, that he never lost a playoff series, like he's number 1 in ever statistical catwgory (as opposed to none....actually none) that he never quit on his teams and that he never punched teammates in the eye. My point is that if you only look at highlights, then whoever you're looking at will be the best of all time. And with Jordan, you guys only look at highlights.
Gregory I’m old enough to have seen mj play and know the talent that was around lebron went from team to team creating a roster if mj did that early on he would have more than 6 this era should have it’s own top 25 because things change substantially
Longevity has nothing to do with who's the goat in the nba for 2 reasons. 1. It was illegal for some players to come in the nba at 17 like others. You can't use a stat that doesn't apply to all. . 2. It doesn't gauge performance.
Hamasa Gaming but Rose is still playing so he has longevity too! So it goes back to performance because he doesn’t perform the same anymore. Mike was injured also, yet he continued to get better year after year!
MJ was the fastest to reach 5k, 10k, 15k,20k, 25k 30k pts! I cant imagine if he played for 20 yrs, he was fit to play if he wants to, unlike todays players they stat padding. Impact wise? MJ brought the NBA to the whole world and Everybody wants to be like Mike!!!
The 80’s and the 90’s were brutally physical. Imagine if the non athletic Charles Oakley kept knocking LJ to the floor (what with touching someone now gets you ejected practically), I don’t think his stats would necessarily be as good. The other about MJ is he stuck with his team and did not seek out buds to create a super team. That always left a sour taste in my mouth
Look, James is an amazing player, one of the greatest, especially in his era. But let's be honest, he dominated in a flopping, kid gloves foul calls, and played on super teams. There's just no logical means of Lebron passing Jordan. James could have to win one DPTY, one more MVP, two more chips, and a couple scoring titles to have this discussion. He's top 5 at worst or top 3 at best but not #1
You have no facts to back up your claims, you talk like LeBron is the only star who got phantom foul calls, there are games where LeBron has gotten beaten up so hard
@@chasam1 he doesn’t like the pressure solely on him, which is why he formed superteams and passes it majority of the time in clutch situations especially if he’s down. He also avoids getting to the line so he won’t have to shoot FT’s.
@@jordansoviet23 anytime adversity hits he either bolts or tries to make it seem like he’s hurt or both. He’s not gonna want to sit out this season and play that “injury” card bc he’s chasing Kareem. He’s gonna want all the easy points he can get in blown out situations.
Did everyone forget 😕 that Jordan lost his father due to murder 🤔 which impacted his career 🤔 by him not wanting to play the game anymore and he still came back and gave us 3 rings back to back
@@straightlead8 He was not weak minded the fact that Jordan even returned to play Basketball is a testament in itself. Having someone close to you like Jordan was with his father and finding out he was murdered would be traumatic
When you watched Jordan play you truly felt like you were watching greatness. As good as Lebron is, you never got that feeling. Scoring leader is not the barometer. No one talks about Kareem as the greatest player. End of discussion💯
Perk is ridiculous because Jordan made it to the conference championship game against the Pistons and gave then a run, without any help. He was the best player in the league almost as soon as he joined the league.
I like your very first example. Because if it was all just about stats then of course John Stockton would be considered better than magic Johnson. But there's so much more to consider in the goat conversation than just stats. Championships and impact upon the game and the culture and memorable moments just to name a few. Stats can only give you one part of the story.
MJ haters/LBJ fans change the criteria to fit their agenda. I remember years ago it was how LBJ was better bc “he’s big/strong/faster” while saying rings are a “team accomplishment” or MJ’s awards were solely based on the media. Then when he started accumulating stats while winning with his stacked teams it became about that, then his yes men started going on tv to make up narratives to fit their “goat” argument like LBJ is better bc he faced “juggernaut” teams, MJ “couldn’t beat so and so” etc like you said it’s about EVERYTHING not just stats, this is why MJ is considered the goat bc he was elite everywhere and won with less help in less years.
@@eazyduzit-tr3nx notice how bron fans have bunch of excuses for the struggles also him not playing defense but still find ways to blame his teammates lmao and in the clutch. They bring up the excuse like oh he's in year 19 what do u expect him to do
@@tj5180 they’re the worst, like last night he was stat padding again and his fans instead of acknowledging it went and flipped it, talking about how if he doesn’t play we’ll call him a quitter. Whatever Shannon said basically. There’s always an excuse for everything he does lol.
Kendrick Perkins has the nerve to co-sign that Oakley couldn't play today, Kendrick Perkins was in the league until 2018 so Oakley could definitely play in the modern NBA, not ifs or buts.
@@alexpompez115 Oakley wasn't just a thug, he was an effective low post presence, good rebounder. This idea that players from the 80s and 90s were not good enough for today's NBA. its laughable. Today's NBA is soft, lazy at times passionless
@@n.b.l.5709 he's not even the best Perkins in the history of the league. Sam Perkins would clean his clock out. He's a 6'9 forward/center that could shoot threes, rebound, block shots, defend the perimeter and provide scoring support. He averaged 12 ppg for his career. Kendrick was a 6'10 center that couldn't play forward, only averaged 10 points once, he could rebound, but not shoot and he had some shot blocking ability. He was a nuisance on the perimeter.
You don't have to go far to exposed Perkins just find the video where he said " i'm team Klutch, when he used us to talk about Klutch" We can't take him seriously
yeah, Perkins' argument is based on the fact that he played with LBJ. That's it. It's a fallacy. Like so many other LBJ supporters, its an argument for modernity, nothing more
I agree 100%. Perkins has horrible, horrible takes about Jordan . Now with Thomas dude has been exposed so many times it makes no sense, and he will never give Jordan credit.smh.
The most hilarious thing that man said was Michael Jordan didn’t win in the 80s neither did you Isiah Thomas. This guy won his first championship in 89 MJ won his first in 91 and he wants to talk about Michael Jordan not winning in the 80s.
@@alltheworldsastage8597 jordan had bad teams in the 80s. People act like jordan wouldn't have won if he had a scottie pippen and Rodman lol if he played in the 80s
hile Michael Jordan is widely regarded as the greatest of all time (G.O.A.T), none of his colleagues ever heard him say it himself. It was a title/compliment bestowed on the 6 time Champion by those around him and not the other way around
Thomas still hold Jordan accountable for him not being on the dream team. The problem is that the majority of players didn't want him on the team. He knifed Magic, co-signed an ignorant statement about Bird, Pippin hated him, Malone didn't like him... THATS 5 OF THE 12 MAN ROSTER!
Isaiah's own coach didn't vouch for him to be on the team so I don't know why this yak-yelder is trying to crucify Jordan. The phukk is wrong with him???
The longevity argument is losing a lot of steam when you really analyze it. Longevity for LeBron James only makes sense if he had accomplish with Michael Jordan accomplish in the same time span and he kept on going. There’s a reason why LeBron is still playing.
Facts. Not to mention all the times Lebron has rested in late season games to preserve himself for the playoffs. MJ played all 82 games in a season 9 times out of 15 seasons, and would probably take it as an insult if you tried to sit him to preserve his energy and health, AND he played relentlessly on both ends of the floor every possession of every game. You can't say the same for Lebron who has only played 82 games 1 time in his entire 19 year career, and has only played 80+ games 3 times in his career. MJ played in a much more physical era of the NBA as well, so there was far more toll being put on his body, and when you factor in that MJ was retired for 4 & 1/2 years of his prime... the longevity argument really doesn't hold the same weight.
It amazes me how a guy that averaged more than 9 ppg once in his career, and was a minimal contributor on every team he played for has so much to say about “greatness”. Not to mention he was a 6’10 center in a perimeter focused league.
I never understand the "competition was weaker back then" argument. If competition was weaker, wouldn't that also mean that Jordan's teammates, both superstar and bench/roleplayers also be worse? Which is true, Jordan beat tougher teams, in overall record and advanced analytics, with much less than LeBron.
It’s hilarious, it’s bc MJ haters/LBJ fans want to avoid calling him the goat so they have to prop up his teammates while discrediting his competition. Notice how they prop up the guys that MJ lost to or never faced (Bird/Isiah/Hakeem etc) yet the ones he beat they’re considered “weak” or “old”.
@@allenlucas1676 that means his supporting cast was also much weaker than LeBron's too. People make it seem like MJ had nothing but HOFers on his team and was playing scrubs. It's not a good argument for LeBron either because he's done less with more HOFers & all stars on his team.
@@handsomesquidward-_- he didn’t do less tho. Y’all say him having less rings means he accomplished less. Well if that is the case Robert Horry accomplished more than Jordan. If y’all say he has the most FMVP’s, well if the FMVP existed in Bill Russell’s era he would have no less than 8. Kareem has more MVP’s and an equal amount of rings yet y’all still say MJ is better. So obviously it’s not those things that make MJ greater. So trying to use those very things to say that Lebron is not better is a contradiction. Nobody ever held Jordan to a standard to get more rings than Bill Russell yet you still made him out to be greater. Why? Is it because of his stats, and how he played the game? Because if that is the case, then that’s the same reason I say Lebron is way better than Jordan. He does not need as many rings to be greater. He instantly turns teams into Championship Contenders. He doesn’t need to 3peat. He has kept other teams from a 3peat. He has literally beaten 2 prime dynasty teams in the Finals. He has literally won as the underdog twice. He’s been the underdog 7 out of 10 times when MJ was always on the Favorite squad. If Lebron was on the obviously better team, I’m sure he would have 10 rings and no losses. That is what Jordan had WITH a HOF Coach! Jordan also never dealt with his best teammates being out on injury in the Finals. Lebron has constantly dealt with that throughout his career. So I’m not buying it. MJ is not better than Lebron James. And his competition was not even close to Lebron’s. And you know that shit as well!
Why do they continue to ask Isaiah's opinion on anything regarding MJ? You already know what his stance will be, that man will go to his grave salty AF at MJ.
Came in the nba out of high school, respect always. What that means is he had extra time. 23 in red retired for almost 2 full seasons. Still accomplished a lot in a shorter amount of time. Compare what they were doing by the ages. Also why not compare high school to nba player to the other high school to nba player? R.i.p #24 Did you forget about him, he has 1 less than #23 in red and 1 more than #6 in purple
@@SilentMovements305 facts Kobe is the closest one too him, the other potentials to take MJs place got hurt and never got to prove it (penny Hardaway and grant hill)
Also the fact that #24 wasnt even a starter in his first 3 years and not the no1 option until 2004 makes him that great for his personal accomplishments.
Love Jordan, Love Kobe, that's why it sucks when I pick a starting 5 have to go with MJ, however, man those two were something to watch especially in eras that weren't all about the three, and players played hurt, miss the days of the "big man" being the big man, this era sucks, you breathe on a guy it's a foul
MJ walked away from the NBA he had no competition...he played his last yr with wizards to try and change them for the better. He didn't go and say send me to LA with KOBE or SAN ANTONIO with Dunkin to get easier stats...he put up 20 plus points on a terrible wizards team with no other all star player...
He went to Washington because he had taken part ownership, he made the decisions on that roster too, it was dog shit because of him, much like his hornets, don’t fool yourself
Firstly, John stockton is an incredibly underrated point guard, and if someone said that John Stockton is better than Magic, I wouldn't agree, but that person has a decent case! And also one of Magic's overlooked aspect is his defense, he can defend centers and power forwards and has more blocks than stockton, and Magic's defense is defintily better than Stockton. Following the same logic, the best aspect of Tim Duncan's game is his defense, and you didn't show that! Karl Malone is a good defender, but Duncan was one of the best defending big men ever! You can't only show offensive stats and say that one player is better than another
U also forgot his leading the league in steals multiple times also, that's is Michael Jordan who have done that and not LeBron James who has never ever done it also...I can go on and on for more.
Well it's one very important stat when can give lebron over Jordan and every other players in the NBA and that's turnovers Because lebron has more turnovers than any other player in NBA history So he definitely the goat of that
Byron Russell 6'7" The plastic man 6'7" Nick Anderson 6'7" Ray Allen 6'7" Alan Houston 6'7" Sprewell 6'7" Cheney 6'6" Starks 6'5" Eddie Jones 6'7" Jim Jackson 6'5" Reggie Miller 6'7" Reggie Lewis RIP 6'7" And many many more...there has always been big Guards in the NBA
Another thing they miss is that it's a pick your poison game with MJ: if you put taller guys on him, he outspeeds them; if you put smaller guards to match his speed, he will outmuscle them or post them
Drexler, Reggie Miller, Mitch Richmond, price...never mind Shawn kemp, malone, Barkley, Shaq, Hakeem, Ewing, starks, smits, Payton, tim Hardaway, chris webber and on and on no comparison...zo...blaylock...glen Robinson...
@@rageflash9 Magic Johnson was 6'9" and he was elite at every position and is still the only NBA player to make the all-star and all NBA teams at two different positions (PG and SF)
I'm so done with this conversation and I've got ZERO time or respect for anyone who even thinks it's close, they're so far apart they may as well be playing different sport
The thing that really hurts Zeke’s takes is how he has waffled, from actually saying Michael Jordan was the greatest then later, after more beef between them, changed his take to Kareem. It makes it look a little petty and below someone as accomplished and generally respected as Thomas. Not long ago he made a big deal about how he dominated Jordan’s Bills and they were never his competition… in all of their matchups Zeke’s Pistons had Jordan’s Bulls by 5 games in total regular season games and 2 playoff games. Hardly domination. Zeke’s seems annoyed his Pistons teams wins have been discounted due to style over the years and the target of his ire seems to be Jordan. Zeke’s an all time great, but his takes leave something to be desired.
Forever gonna be impossible when people use emotions in an argueMent. Along with the fact of the always ever changing nature of the game. Honestly we should be happy we get players like this around every 20 ish years
I'm a Pistons fan who hated the Bulls but can admit Jordan is the best player I've ever seen, period! 💯 better than Lebron on both offense and defense in a tougher era. There's nothing he can do, that ship has sailed ⛵️
@@dynamic6645 Jordan won DPOY, finished 2nd place twice, finished 3rd place once, 5th place once, 7th place once and 8th place once! So 9x he was top 8 in DPOY voting! He has an NBA record 9x first team all defense, 3x steals leader. Only player in nba history with 100 blocks/200 steals in a season (did that twice) .. and was a complete lockdown defender! Greatest defensive superstar in nba history imo 💯 as far as era, the rules benefited the defensive player in the 90s, more physical play, handchecking, less foul calls, less spacing, slower paced, half court offense which allowed the defense to get set, more crowded lanes, more bigs and shot blockers under the rim, etc!!!
@@darrellhardy90 That's cute, awards have no objective value, provide more facts, because the videos here on youtube prove LeBron is a better defensive player than Jordan 😉😉😉 Stats and vote-based subjective media awards won't change how these 2 played defense on the court 😎😎
@@dynamic6645 ya ok bro.. well Doc Rivers and Jerry West recently said the same thing, so I guess one of the top 15 greatest coaches and the greatest basketball mind in nba history opinion is garbage too right? Name a better defensive superstar 🤷♂️ the only other 2 in the conversation are Bill Russell or Olajuwon.. Jordan's defense was even better than his offense! Try to say I lost credibility 🤣 obviously u must not have seen him play! Greatest "2-way" player of alltime, easily
MJ played 11 complete seasons with bulls. Still to this date,has the best ave in regular season and post season history.Best PER in NBA history. The season that MJ had,LeBron dreams to have a season like this one for example. 85 had one of the best rookie season in NBA history.88 Won MVP,DPOY,all-star MVP slammed dunk champion,Stl title scoring title, all defensive first team all NBA first team. Back to back 200+ stl & 100+ blk wile almost scoring 3,000 points on both of those seasons. Just on his 4th season.🤷
MJ does have the highest PER of all time (to date), and PPG all time! As an aside, a few years ago, the Blitz Sports Network did a video of 100 statistical feats Lebron would never surpass MJ on.
Everybody always bring up about Lebron coming in out of high school. Sure I respect that but remember MJ playing on team USA back when pros weren’t allowed in the Olympics. That Olympic team played against NBA all stars. MJ made them look like kids
Remember James started at 18 Jordan was 21 when he started at the nba and also James has played 19 seasons and MJ only played 15 imagine MJ playing 20 45,000 pts and at least 2 more championships
MJ is the goat but these are such stupid what ifs and hypotheticals. Ya what if Michael didn’t retire twice. What if Michael had th longevity of Lebron. That’s like saying what if Lebron had Phil jackson, what if Lebron had a great gm, what if Lebron didn’t play against dynasties and superteams for 15 years of his 19 year career. MJ the goat but let’s not start with these dumb hypotheticals
🤣. So yeah. Let’s blame Lebron. It’s his fault that Jordan was not good enough to go to the NBA from high school. And yeah let’s blame Lebron that jordan wasn’t durable enough to play as long as Lebron at a high level. You sound dumb, Steven.
@John Smith You’re either too young to see Jordan play or too Illiterate to know the reason why he left the game. He’s dad passed away and he wanted to fulfill his dad’s dream/wishes for him to play Pro Baseball. Kids nowadays in their feelings. Internet is available kiddo. Just googled it. #Troll
Lebrun has done a lot of things Jordan hasn’t at ages Jordan could never do them at, but both at their peaks whenever that happened Lebrun James is just a foot shorter
I have yet to talk to someone personally that is old enough to have witnessed both Jordan and Lebron play that thinks Lebron is the GOAT over Jordan. Regardless of stats, MVPs, and championships....its the intanglibles that will always have MJ as the GOAT over Lebron. Things like never being scared to take the last shot, always wanting to guard the best player, never taking a night off, etc.....Jordan excelled at things like this, while Lebron is known for resting, whining, flopping, lol.
Most of us older guys observe the nuances of the game. We don't rely on numbers and years played only. You have to nitpick what players can and cannot do. Lebron James has more than a few weaknesses and they media will shadow them by referencing back to stats and numbers. The rules changes and the zone defense uncovered a lot of player's weaknesses.
In a video talking about bias, you sure threw one of the top 2-3 all time PGs of all time in the garbage can when comparing him to Magic. I think you should have chosen someone besides Stockton, whom you seem to criminally underrate.
Lebrons last year is next year, he said hes finishing his career playing ball with his son, so 20 years total, which is insane, but hes gonna need to put up insane Numbers again to pass kareem, but hes still not better than jordan
Jordan retired as league mvp, scoring champ, and 1st team all nba while nba champion in 1993 AND. 1998. He had longevity. He retired at his prime in 30 years old and was still BEYOND ALL-STAR LEVEL as the league mvp in 1998. Jordan longevity should not be doubted. He simply retired in his prime TWICE.
@@daviddowling2822 ... The fact that he retired and came back to 3 more championships should be praised. No one says a damn thing when they praise Lebron for being the loser 6 times in the NBA finals.
@@ericjordan6059 like I said, Lebron gets stuck for having little ngevity whereas MJ gets praise for retiring twice and not having longevity. I love MJ and he is the GOAT no doubt but some people r just biased. I ain’t
@@daviddowling2822 ... Because he accomplished far less than what people would expect from the supposed GOAT. And Jordan retired once in his prime. I doubt 36 is prime. He was skilled enough to be able to change his playing style and still be effective to where people looked at him as being prime. And again, I give Jordan credit for what he accomplished once he came back. That is called hard work and dedication. Jordan also played a decent amount of years with consistency, from a numbers and winning standpoint. Who else has done that? The longevity game only plays when it fits someone's narrative.
@@ericjordan6059 mate I’m done talking to u. I keep saying MJ is the goat but I just don’t give everything to MJ over Lebron. I don’t hold Lebron to a higher standard than Jordan like yourself. MJ is the goat. I’ve said it in our convo 5 times and u keep talking to me like I’m licking brons ass so I cba. U are right. Mike is the goat. But I have agreed with that from the very start. I’m just not gonna knock Lebrons accomplishments because it took him longer to get them, and I’m not gonna knock Mike for not having the best longevity. The fact that mike won more in less time is great but it’s not why he’s the goat, his prime was better than Lebrons and he won more titles than Lebron and he dominated more than Lebron that’s why. But if Lebron won 8 titles in 25 years with 6 MVPs and 8 FMVPs. That would probably make Lebron the goat, that won’t happen but I’m saying just because mike done it in a shorter time don’t make him the greatest, he just is.
What some don’t realize is Michael Jordan did everything in a shorter time that’s why he’s the Goat I still don’t like how they over look Kobe when this conversation comes about
Me neither, its not right, Kobe to date closest thing to Jordan, he was killing it those years dominating without Shaq, than the scandal and still, he should've got those 2 mvps, not nash...thats why that dunk on nash by kobe was so awesome as well, it was kobe league, he even took lebron and wade and Durant and.all them its in videos saying who the best player is even LeBron saying it, its KOBE
MJ was drafted in 1984 with the Bulls with old players from the 70s. He played with non all stars while the Pistons, Lakers and Celtics were all powerhouse teams. Zeke obviously will never mention this due to his personal grudge. Pippen was with the Bulls in 1987 and they weren't winning either until 1991. Lebron meanwhile was in zero championship in the NBA for eight years. MJ only had 6 years losses before their first chip and made the Bulls a dynasty from an unknown team. Zeke's narratives here were flawed.
People talk about Lebron’s longevity. Lebron James has played all 82 games in a season only once. He plays 55 60 65 games a season with this load management nonsense. MJ played 82 games nine times in his career. Even did it one season with the wizards when he was 38 or 39 years old. And as far as that scoring title. Kareem’s scoring is way more impressive. He didn’t shoot three pointers. Lebron made more than 2000. Do the Math. And finally, Lebron James never won defensive player of the year.
I love how these ESPN idiots discuss Jordan endlessly while he is on his mansion/yacht/island and chilling with his model wife...not saying a word. Sad.
Zeke flip flops all the time. One day he says even though they didn’t get along MJ is the GOAT. Then when he’s in his feelings it’s anyone he feels like he want to be the GOAT.
That's maybe due to the fact that one career is cemented and the other is still ongoing. Therefore fluctuations of opinions. Even if i don't agree he has been consistent the past few years
I wonder where Isiah rates John Stockton….I mean he’s by far the all time leader in steals AND assists and was a great player for 20 years, so he must have Stockton in his top 5.
It’s funny Kendrick Perkins made it bold statement by saying Charles Oakley and Anthony Mason would not be in today’s NBA game. Doesn’t he realize the same applies to him?
Let's use the rules that Isiah Thomas laid out AGAINST Isiah. Players better than Isiah Thomas by HIS Rules: 1. John Stockton 2. Jason Kidd 3. Chris Paul 4. Steve Nash 5. Mark Jackson 6. Magic Johnson 7. Oscar Robertson 8. Russell Westbrook 9. Gary Payton SR 10. Tony Parker Well fuck me sideways, Isiah Thomas just argued himself out of being a top ten Point Guard in NBA History! Watch your mouth with that Jordan slander Isiah! Or should I say the worst GM in NBA History!
Bro, of those the names in the list, I'll give Thomas the advantage over Mark Jackson and Westbrook and only cause IT got a chip. Everybody else is better PG than him
HAHAHAHAHAHA - I lasted for 51 seconds and had to stop watching. Anyone claiming Thomas is insightful and fair to Jordan (especially in the last few years) has ZERO credibility. There is no debate, Jordan could play today and be the best player in the league. Leflop with his current attitude and antics would not be able to play in the 80’s and 90’s with the NBA’s truly great players.
@@johnleon2594 no hand checking at all. Uncontested lanes to the basket. Far less physical play. Probably double his free throw attempts per game the way the rules are called today. One of the best midrange shooters in NBA history. A guy who developed different skills and styles of play to keep himself the best player in the world for over 10 years….. Michael Jordan would not only be able to play today, he would be easily the most dominant player in the game.
The thing about the longevity comparison, if MJ didn't play 3 seasons of college hoops and didn't waste two years of his prime playing baseball, MJ would have the longevity category.
Stats stats stats.... isn't 6 losses a stat? Or 2 finals sweeps., isn't that also a stat? That's 0 wins in 2 separate finals appearances..or averaging 17 points in a finals series for a superstar.. nevermind playing in a weak ass conference in his prime while still needing to play with multiple all stars in a soft era., nevermind all that..let's just stick to numbers.,stats..
@@sosaraycharles358 yep that's a stat..along with 3 straight championship..and another 3 straight.. getting his first championship without another all star in his team other than himself., THAT'S A STAT
@@JetEngine85 4 CHIPS, MVPs & FMVPs, most First Team All NBA & gonna be top 5 in assist while being the all time leading scorer, IS THAT A STAT, ur just nit picking Lebrons failures, every super star has had failures
@@sosaraycharles358 nit picking? 6 finals losses is nit picking?? 2 finals sweeps.,that's zero wins in 8 tries and that's nit picking?? You must be a genius!.. nevermind playing in the weak east while playing with multiple all stars in a soft era...6 damn losses is nit picking???? Hahaha you are some fan..
If isiah feels u cant b considered goat if u dont lead in any major categories, then i say u cant b considered goat if u have more finals losses than wins and 2 of them being major choke jobs by a certain player
