FINALLY! An Alternative to Canon EOS M - Canon 650D vs BMPCC4k 

Tim...it's crazy man! Danne, Alex, Bilal and the Devs are simply amazing. All this gear would have just been in a dump somewhere but here we are..buying and using this old gear and it's so much fun. Thanks for the comment bro 🙌🏾

can 700d autofocus when using ML/crop mood?!

Yes it can.

Awesome, thank you so much for commenting. It really motivates me 🙌🏾

Thank you Rumi, I appreciate you 🙌🏾🙌🏾

Respect my brother 🙌🏾 hopefully look decent on big screen too.

Thank you bro. Yeah it's crazy what one can do with ml. And these new builds are awesome. Thanks again for your time and gear 🙌🏾

Very hard to describe... especially when trying to explain it to a none camera nerd....but we know 😁 Thank you and I must try motion cam again. I haven't tried it since it first came out.

That's great to know, thank you for this 🙌🏾 do you think it's possible to send me some pictures of the bottom with the cage on via Instagram please? @imceuk 🙏🏾

I agree with that Wilson. All the observations so far have been the same as what I thought in grading. I didn't want to say anything, I wanted to let people make up their own minds and yes....these could easily match it post. Thank you brother 🙌🏾

Thank you so much, I love to read these comments. Been feeling a bit deflated lately and these comments give me energy. Please keep it! It such an awesome camera and I use it a lot more than my M-Lite now. Will be going in hard soon on the 650d so stay tuned 🙌🏾

Thank you brother 🙌🏾 you're too kind.

Yeah I definitely hear that. In terms of colour I think the BM was slightly overdone using Davinci wide gamut, especially his grey clothes had a lot of red in them which if I was doing this vid for I project I would need to fix. The 650d was on point with his skin tone and clothes. But yes the p4k is better in areas as expected. As a B or C cam, crash, travel or if it's just for a budget conscious person the 650d would be great to have. I have 2 Sony Fx30's so it's great not needing to buy another.

Yep you're right, both look great. I noticed that too and the clothes were a bit magenta on the p4k but they both look impressive 🙌🏾

Yes I fully agree with that, I noticed it when grading. I could use power windows and then some isolated noise reduction but it had to be a fair look with the most basic grade. Thank you

When I bring pr4444 into resolve from the ML app, peak brightness is about 3300- 3584. (Clipping shows up here too.) A quick divide by 16 yields about 225. In the 8-bit world, digital 234 is 100%. In the analog world 100% is the peak signal level, but with digital camcorders the peak is 108-109%. The digital values from 235 to 255 are Superwhite data that increase dynamic range. This is what BM and most, if not all, digital cameras use. Seems ML records like a decades old analog camera thus a more limited dynamic range. In Resolve camera data should range between 64 and 4095. (Actually, the ML minimum is 128 which further reduces dynamic range.) Is this DR limitation from the a/d converters or is ML not correctly converting data from the a/d.

All I saw is numbers 😅 I'll have to take your word for it 👍🏾👍🏾

Too many tests for one video. These things take a lot of time to make. I'm doing a video with m against the Bmpcc OG though.

Definitely. Hopefully the prices stay low for the foreseeable future.

Thank you, it's a very good camera. Apart from the shutter value bug that only affects the text it's pretty much the same as the Eos m.

I doubt it. The T5i feels pretty good as it is and the flip screen is also good. The M sensor so similar to T5i I don't think there's a need for it.

Hi, it's very simple but I would ask you to join the Facebook group for that. Lots of information there.

Bro, where you been hiding? Missed you man 🙏🏾

I'm not surprised you're satisfied, the 5d range is still solid. The fp is also amazing but I still stand by my original thoughts in that video...drive space. BMPCC4K is definitely the best upgrade. Even though it has a smaller sensor it's so easy to work with in terms of memory and image quality.

I exported as CDNG so I couldn't do any highlight recovery but you can always export as ProRes which will keep all the changes you make in mlvapp. You can also use power windows, HDR tools in resolve too. I had to leave it alone in this video because the grade had to be minimal to get a good idea of the image between the two.

It's pretty much the same deal. The differences in sensor are so miniscule you won't see any difference. The benefits for 650 are size, screen, battery, buttons. Eos-M benefits are better for pocket travel and lens adapters.

The installation process is pretty much the same as nightly. Have you downloaded Dannes build?

Thank you. Yes it runs great and very similar to the m. Haven't noticed any major issues 🙌🏾

@@Altcine wow, thanks for the reply. Waiting for more of your great videos with 650D

Thanks for commenting. With my eos-m I stuck mainly to EF lenses using adapters. It works out cheaper in the long run because EFM lenses can't be adapted to anything. If your 7artisans is ef-m then unfortunately you can't adapt it.

@@Altcine thank you so much for your reply x ok that’s straightened that out much appreciated

In the new version of crop mood the camera is reading the raw data differently.... apparently it's more accurate (so I've been told). Because of this, some higher resolution modes struggle a bit with higher bit-rate. In this scene I probably could have gotten 12bit but when I do my tests, I have to do them as if I was using a solid stable camera so I chose 10bit. If a camera can record 5.2k in 14 bit raw for only 10seconds...it's useless so better to use in its most stable state.

The p4k braw is definitely sharper. The 5k isn't technically 5k, when you desqueeze it, it gives you a 5k resolution but not sharp like you'd see from a cam that has a modern sharp sensor. I always export to CDNG and sharpen in raw tab and a little more on the colour page if needed. CDNG responds fantastic to sharpening in resolve without looking plasticy.

It runs very well, as good as the Eos-M and similar write speed 70-80MB/s. Really enjoyable experience. Thank you 🙌🏾

@@Altcine that 's great news

Hi, yes the new build of Magic lantern is called Crop Mood. At the moment it's available for the 100D, 650D, 700D & Canon Eos-m. Some other camera's like the 5d series have good builds from the developer Danne but crop mood is really nice. Unfortunately I don't think it's available for 600D 😔

@@Altcine thank You

Thank you, I was shocked by how good the shots came out. Apparently there's some software that allows android apps to run on older Sony but it's still in early stages. We'll have to see where it goes.

They really are man. The p4k is fantastic till this day!

Thank you and love your RU-vid name 🙌🏾

@@Altcine Thanks a lot 😃

It has some type of upgraded flash port for photography. If the 700d is cheaper...get it.

Yes very easily

5d Mk3 is a beast with ml....just don't spend too much on the body.

There an option to increase the bit rate on h264 in magic lantern but imo I wouldn't use this method. If you end up with focus dots or lines then you can't get rid of them because mlvapp won't read h264. Use canon's normal 1080 if you need it, not from magic lantern

Crazy right

Thank you

Thanks man 🙌🏾

For crop mood it's 100, 650, 700 and canon Eos-m.

I'll definitely do it soon. I would like to get the Eos-M Vs bmpcc OG out first though.

@@Altcine when you get time you can much this cameras with pixel 6 pro raw video with motion cam video cause so far the pixel 6 pro is becaming the cheapest raw camera since not only the phone cost $250 used but it's ecosystem things like gimbal, sd cards and lens are much cheaper

I doubt if I'd get the phone just to try motion cam but I could try it on my fold 4. I'll be honest and say I'm not a fan of mobile phone footage regardless of raw or phone type as the sensor is just so small. There was a motion cam Vs bmpcc4k video I watched and imo was totally misleading. They made the p4k look like the phone which is very easy to do. They should have shot and graded the p4k footage properly and tried to get the same with motion cam.

@@Altcine what you say is true, but if the phone can shot the same as the pro cam or even close. This will open doors to so many people, plus the market of mobile shooting fans is getting bigger this will benefit alot of content creator.

That's very true. I can't see many phone creators going through the raw process but it's definitely interesting.

Yep

700d & 650d are essentially the same camera and very similar spec to Eos-M. If the size is ok, the 700d is the one to get.

It basically a DSLR version of the Eos-M. It does have slightly faster sensor readout, better heat management and obviously the body is better but it's very similar. My initial impressions on playing with the footage is that it's slightly cleaner in shadow noise but I want to do proper comparison on that. I think you're good with the cams you have so you may not see any benefit in 650/700. For others still looking for an m at a good price should get one immediately.

@@Altcine oh ok gotcha , cool. Thanks brother - Im a concert pianist and film composer out of Los Angeles but I’ve been shooting ML for 1 years now because of your vids ✊🏽🔥✊🏽

Oh awesome. Do you have anything on your channel I can listen to? Thank you brother 🙏🏾

@@Altcine absolutely! - Here’s a of a short I scored last year Comedy Horror Short Film: "Never Been Bitten" | OriginalScore, Sound Design ru-vid.com/video/%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BE-8JbYnMttsWw.html - Here’s a Snippet of a feature I wrote additional music for. Horror Sci-Fi Feature Film: "Hollow's Ridge" | Original Score & Sound Design ru-vid.com/video/%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BE-JNpeAJXy8yQ.html - I filmed this 37 sec trailer teaser with Magic Lantern & composed music to it. Titian: Short Film Snippet (Original Music) ru-vid.com/video/%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BE-4c5yl1lu9c4.html - My newest and most recent score called “Plight”. Inspired by Batman games. Plight: Original Film Score * 07 ru-vid.com/video/%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BE-m0A53SmqTrU.html - Original Score with A.I. art The End: Original Film Score ★ 06 ru-vid.com/video/%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BE-qvU6JVo93hE.html - Willy Wonka & Chocolate Factor song “Pure Imagination”. (Jazz Cover) ru-vid.com/video/%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BE-PIOAhgz2CYU.html I’m down to collab anytime, Darryl 323.557.9468 GOD bless

Hi, thank you. Installation files and build can be found here ru-vid.com/video/%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BE-V0M7n2cAHMM.html Then watch this afterwards for more tips and usage ru-vid.com/video/%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BE-JPrt-PV1wn8.html

Make sure you download the latest crop mood for 650D

@@Altcine hey. I downloaded the good version, i installed and everything looks good. But I can’t record more than 5 seconds… so I’m not sure what I’m doing wrong. Maybe is the lex sd card . I will get a 170 mb/sec transfer sd card. I don’t know. I hope it works I will keep looking. If you ever have the time I would like to know the settings you use. Only if you have the time. Thank you!

The 5d2 2 will look the best but the Eos-M & 700D will be the most stable. Aliasing & moiré can be an issue in 1080p mode sometimes but it is super stable. There are other modes that are clean but they come at a cost of rolling shutter and crop.

@@Altcine Thank you! 6d or 7d, are they also stable for ML?

@@juancarlosramirez2427 I would say no. There are nightly builds for a lot of cams but the only ones worth buying are 5d2, Eos-M, 100d, 650D & 700D

Now the ones you should definitely buy are 5d2, Eos-M & 700D

thanks bro!! @@Altcine

Thank you, recording depends on your SD card but I think a 64gb card will get about 40mins or so. If you mean can it record for long periods of time without stopping due to stability...it's fine and will record without problems in almost every mode.

@@Altcine thank you for the respond.. really helps..👍

@@hanifstudioreview645 no probs mate.

Awesome. I hear the 100d is working good too so I hope your friend has an easy time with it. I think the image will look very similar to the 100d but if I get my hands on one I'll definitely give it a try.

Nice one. That will definitely come soon! With the Eos-M prices getting a bit stupid I need to do a series on this cam for sure. I've actually got lots of footage shot on this for an upcoming Magic lantern doc/film. Should be dropping in about 10days.

@@Altcine I look forward so watching it :)

The same as usual if you push it too hard. For example, the part where I did the audio test with the XLR adapter I had to drop from 5k to UHD because it couldn't take the extra load from the XLR adapter at 48khz. Using the inbuilt mic is fine on 5k. Other than little things like that....it's solid.

The same lens was used on both camera's. Sigma 18-35 1.8

The 5d3 would beat this in almost every area. I think the 5d still has some janky preview modes but the picture is fantastic. I got this 650d for £120. The 5d3 would be about £350/£400 so there's a big price difference too. If crop mood comes for the 5d3 I will definitely purchase one.

@@Altcine i see price drops on used 5d3, I found 2 very bad looking but working in 250$ Thanks for the answer. I'm on my 5d3 ML from 2015 watching the progress from 4sec 3.5K 14bit crop rec to todays continues 3.5K 14bit crop rec and its amazing the low FPS and jello effect coused on fast moving object is the down side, yea the framing is not acurate, however the output is crazy. great video, thanks for the effort and good luck with your channel.

If it works ok that is a good price. Rough units in UK still fetch a few hundred. Good ones about £420 😅 But yes the advancement in ml is crazy. The current crop mood cams have noticeable rolling shutter too unless you shot 1080. Thank you so much, you're very kind 🙏🏾

I don't think so. Bilal has a list on his channel.

It depends on what you do. The Blackmagic is running a normal operating system which means it's reliable. Magic lantern can be used and can have very few issues but there's always a risk.

Not as many as Eos-M but all the ones that are worth buying are fine. I use a mix of m42 and fd. I'm pretty sure you can do c-mount, Minolta etc too. Search RU-vid for any lens that you're interested in.

@@Altcine Thanks for the reply. I also have some M42 & FD lens that I use on M4/3. I heard ML crops even more than M4/3? Is this true? The issue I've always had was trying to find affordable ultra wides to deal w the crop factor. The widest lens I have is 28mm w a focal reducer making it like 40mm FF equivalent. When using ML is this going to be like 80mm or something? I might have to get a Loawa or TTartisan 9mm or 12mm

1080p & 5k have very little crop. Get a canon 10-18efs....it's amazing in bright conditions.

@@Altcine Thanks good to know. When shooting the 1080 or 5K mode is there a recording time limit? I heard some modes can only shoot few secs clips

Stick to 10bit in 5k and it'll be continuous. In 1080p you can use 14bit. Just be aware that 1080p can produce aliasing and 5k has noticeable rolling shutter if you move the camera fast.

Thank you. I think I read somewhere that Bilal is working on it. I'm not 100% certain as I've read so many posts but I swear I read it in the Facebook group.

@@Altcine Super! Thanks

I kinda wish I got 700d now but hopefully Bilal is able to sort the shutter issue. Hold onto it...I think the price might rise soon lol

@@Altcine Based on how popular EOS M was and how it affected the price, as soon as more people hype up the used Canon DSLR, I have no doubt prices will increase, can only hope for good deals to pop up when there's money in one's pocket. Anyway, looking forward to more videos on Crop Mood on 650D.

Yeah definitely. What I noticed is as soon as WEX, Mpb etc start raising prices, it gets ridiculous on the private market too. The bmpcc OG is prime example of how ridiculous some people were being on the price but I've started to see them at £350-£400 again now which is really all they're worth. Thanks for your comments bro 🙌🏾

I know right 😁 I've shot so much and haven't had a single issue.

Unfortunately you'd have to try one of the old builds to see how you get on. It won't be anything like Crop Mood but some resolutions might work ok. Crop Mood is currently only available for Eos-M, 100d, 650d & 700d.

@@Altcine thanks , I thought I could restore life in my 600d , I had ML on it along time ago and it was problematic.

Yeah it'll probably still be the same. I know you have lots of camera's so it might not interest you but you could always sell it and get a 650 or 700... they're quite cheap at the moment.

@@Altcine I’m going to trade my a6500 for a 700d and 200 buck store credit 🙂

That sounds like a good plan 👌🏾

Nice 🙌🏾 why the SL1 and not 700d?

@@Altcine SL1 a bit smaller.

Oh I see 🙌🏾

Bro, so confusing. I think they named them differently because Japanese have a crazy number obsession....maybe.

Most definitely

It's pretty much the same as Eos-M. The most stable, perfect in 14bit but has aliasing and Moiré.

@@Altcine thank you for replying

No probs, anytime 🙌🏾

Thank you my bro 🙌🏾🙌🏾

Yeah definitely a stealthy little cam and lots of people love it for that reason. Silver & blue are quite rare now and my silver will be going inside an M-Lite soon lol Yeah weather proofing is great for camera's. Gives you confidence in rough conditions.

@@AltcineAnd the red version has the fastest autofocus :D . I asked Questions at the auction with the red version but the seller was random from Thailand and I ended up with an experienced silver one from Japan ;]

Really? Where did you hear the red has the best AF? I've owned every colour apart from blue and they all seemed very similar.

@@Altcine Red cars are usually faster ;)

🤣🤣🙌🏾

Yep, there's numerous things we could say about the Blackmagic being better but these old canons really have a great look 🙌🏾

Yep, dust off those cobwebs and get ml loaded up.

@@Altcine Can you share the ML settings? mine crashes every time I use it. Pretty much gave up on it...

@@MysterSer333 my settings are pretty much stock. I don’t change much from the default install. I suggest you join the facebook group and look around because there’s a few things to consider settings, sd card etc need trouble shooting

@@Altcine I had in the past 9 months, upgraded the sd(although I already had a very fast one)... Finally took the ML card out recently just to feel like I could actually shoot again -.- probably just going to go in more debt to get a newer Sony cam just so I can confidently get to work.. What's the fb group you're in?

@@MysterSer333 facebook.com/share/QV2Na7KKoyfsnrQ4/?mibextid=K35XfP

Yeah it's definitely a more robust codec and great IQ. Magic Lantern can be used for all sorts but you still have to remember it's not retail software. I haven't run a 650d battery from full to end but on a recent trip, 2 batteries lasted me a full day. Easily better than p4k but p4k is still the wiser choice for professionals.

Ps, magic lantern shoots raw so even the low Res files look fantastic. 5k is more of a debayer thing. It crops in a little bit and squeezes the footage. When you desqueeze it the Res is 5k. It's not that oversharp type 5k but there's a lot you can do with it in post.

@@Altcine yeah, I'm not even sure the BMPCC can last whole day with 6 batteries. So it crops like if you put in say a 35mm lens, it views as 70mm in recording? (I don't know the crop factor)

Yeah that was one of the biggest reasons I wanted to let mine go in the end. Trying to find a minimal battery solution was a bit of a pain as I didn't want to do all that wires & adapter business. Magic lantern crop mood as three settings groups. 1x1 = heavy crop - cleanest image. 1x3 = clean image - very little crop - noticeable rolling shutter 3x3 = no crop - has aliasing and Moiré but can do high frame rates.

@@Altcine Thanks, say in 1440p (16:9), I wondered which crop is possible for 24p? (Or you can use either of the 3?)

Lol ok next time I'll do a talking head shot, a scene with high dynamic range, with fog, without fog and a scene that could be in a movie/music video.....or.....I could just combine them all into one scene so everyone takes something away and it saves me tons of time 😁

@@Altcine hahaha just messing with ya. Awesome vids and thanks for your time. :-)

Lol yeah it's cool 😁🙌🏾🙌🏾 thank you

Subtle differences if you look hard but both very impressive. The most impressive thing is I've shot tons of footage this past 10 days and no crashes etc.

@@Altcine how about pink frame or pink highlight? do you see significant degrade like color banding of 10 bit versus 14 bit?

Pink frames only come when you push the camera too hard. Crop Mood has a lot going under the hood to avoid this but it's always possible if you overload the camera with monitors, audio, high Res with high bitrate etc. Just don't push it to the max. Pink highlights are an overexposing issue so it's mostly user error. You can fix pink highlights in mlvapp.

Remember the 10bit is still raw...it's not like 10bit from Sony or Lumix and even their compressed 10bit is good. If you get banding in 10bit whilst grading then the look is being pushed far to hard. If the banding happens because of RU-vid or something then there's not much that can be done about that. 14bit is very extreme and I think most people only use it because they can.

Yeah the prices are getting stupid. 700D first then 650D. They're basically the same camera but some 650D have a shutter bug. It doesn't affect footage but the onscreen shutter dosent always display correctly even though it's fine in the canon menu. I use 650D and as long as I set the correct shutter in canon menu it's all good.

The best lens I've ever used on these old canon Camera's is the sigma 18-35. It's quite big & heavy but if you want to mimic modern camera's for sharpness & resolving detail it's the best. I also recommend TTartisans, canon fd and Meike but it really depends on what kind of content you want to shoot.

@@Altcine It's as you said before! I didn't realise it was the same mount on the lens! I also wanted to just check, would you say £200 for the eos M with a kit lens (15-45) is worth it or am I just better off with the 650/700? edit: you already answered the other question

Oh sorry I went a bit deep, you were only asking about lens in the first paragraph 😅 200 is the max I'd pay but I wouldn't be comfortable. The Eos-M is tiny and a lot of people like it but the 650/700 is better imo. The handling is soooo good. It stays cooler than the m, battery seems a bit better, lots more buttons for better control and the flip screen is fantastic. The Eos-M does have the ability to use a speedbooster though which could help in low light but if I was buying now...it would be 700D. Also, I feel it's a waste of money investing in EFM glass. All the ef lenses you buy for 700/650 can be kept and used on pretty much any camera available so no need to sell them should you upgrade to a more modern camera.

@@Altcine The sigma seems like it'll definitely be my jam, it has similar qualities to my fav 35mm, the 35/f1.4 XF for my fuji which is why I was so interested in it, so it seems like a good investment for me. And I see, you are right, bigger is usually better for handling, I learnt that myself when upgrading from my first mirrorless camera! All the buttons and such seem good too, more things outside of menus is typically more intuitive, flip screens are a godsend too! And the ability to utilise their lens on my modern setup could be nice as it can open up more photographic opportunities when I am working. Do you think the 700d would be fine with some concert videography? I intend to shoot for a friend's band and practice video with them to get a bearing on how to record properly so I figure lighting could have is quirks in that setting. If the difference in low-light performance isn't huge/can more easily be compensated for I'll probably just go for the 700d with no regrets