Folding Pocket Aces in a 4 bet Pot? 

In my opinion, he didn’t realize the fold on the turn was bad until Bart said it.

It’s an amazing face. Kinda sticks there for a minute too. Bart obviously smelled that stinky play.

That's because he already knew the villains hand wasn't revealed.

The face i make when i go all in with As just to realize its was A4o

I agree, that's a bad fold there.

Omg that face!!!

What makes it worse is this guy actively seeks a 5/10 game (probably pure ego or to "feel" rich even though he's not) and then plays scared when it comes time to actually play poker. He should just play 1/2 or 2/5 and stop pretending to be a pro 😂

It's a weird spot. Hero's UTG raise size is somewhat small, but it sounds like that was the "standard" open size in that game at the time. The SB could be playing a 3B or fold strategy with the rec in the BB, so he's going to be 3B'ing with a wider range, allowing hero to 4B a wider range, and V can call a little wider. The stack depth makes 5B'ing a UTG 4B a very risky move, so V could have TT+ and some suited Broadway hands, but I'd think his continue range is going to be pretty tight - TT/JJ, AK/AQs/KQs. Hero's range is about the same, probably QQ+, AK/AQs/KQs. It's hard to see how V could x/r the monotone flop and jam turn without the Ad in his hand, blocking hero's nut flushes. All V's pairs are crushed by hero's flopped flushes, and hero's bigger pairs with a d in them. His jam is only folding out hero's pairs without a d, which is just 9 combos.

@@1vailchris I actually am curious how villain is supposed to play A5hh. It doesn't really effect hero's decision because it is less than 1 combo and villain has far more made flushes and bluffs than that, but it would be an interesting spot for villain.

@@qazzaqstan I would think any A5 combo is supposed to fold to UTG's 4B pre. But if V did have A5hh for the straight, that seems like too strong a hand to turn into a bluff by playing it this way. If I'm in V's spot, I'm thinking hero has big over-pairs (QQ+), and some big suited aces in his range, some of which could have flopped the nut flush. I think I'd just be check-calling with a flopped straight, trying to get to showdown, not x/r'ing flop and jamming turn when I'm either way ahead or way behind hero's range.

@@1vailchris thanks that is mostly what I figured. Flop is still interesting because I almost want to x/r with intent to x/c turn and river since it feel like we should try to be getting money in against the over-pairs and calling 3 streets (assuming over-pairs don't simply check back river) hurts. That said given their flushes and amount of equity they have on pairs with a diamond it is burning money if they ever do things like fold black kings (also if QQ isn't in their 4-bet range), even worse if they 3-bet us with AdKx and we are chased off. So yeah I'm now convinced you are right but it kind of sucks.

​@@qazzaqstan Just thinking about this more...we're V with Ah5h...still seems like we're in a weird spot here. Hero can have over-pairs without a diamond that don't want to play a big pot, over-pairs with a diamond that may be willing to play a big pot, and some nut flushes that would be very happy to get stacks in. Against that sort of range, I think it would be an over-play to x/r flop with a straight, when we're either way ahead or way behind. I think the correct line would be to check-call flop, and also check turn. Hero will check-back on a lot of turns when his over-pairs don't improve, and with all his AK/AQ combos of other suits that just completely missed. With those weaker holdings, hero may just want to get to showdown as cheaply as possible. If the turn goes check-check, we could block-bet the river on a brick. Hero would have most likely continued to value-bet his flopped flushes on the turn, so we can feel pretty good value-betting our straight at the end.

The scared money was my first thought. If he had 50 bucks left is there ever a thought to folding?

100%. As played it’s just a snap imo

Especially after he called the checkrsise on the flop. No folding now.

As played yeah. I like a check on the flop And go from there.

But, that's what you want. Getting your money in with a bunch of equity and villain calling off with a worse hand. This is how you make money in poker, getting the money in with 80% equity(specific to AdKx) will make you a big winner.

I dunno about not folding the turn after calling flop - the pre-flop action makes me think the ranges here are really narrow. V's flop x/r sizing is less than 3x hero's c-bet, laying hero >3:1 pot odds on a call. That sizing looks like V flopped the nut flush and wants a call, or even better, get hero to 3B. It doesn't look like he's just semi-bluffing. Why would V want to risk hero 3B'ing the flop and blowing him off all his equity? I'd think V would x/r bigger on flop if he was semi-bluffing with AdXx, especially from OOP. He could have made it $1k (4x), and forced hero to decide if he wants to get pot-committed and play for stacks with two cards left to come. If V was bluffing with AdXx, would he x/r small on flop, and then just jam the turn from up front after hero called his flop x/r? His turn jam is laying hero >2:1, incentivizing hero to call a lot. This line, with this bet sizing, doesn't make a ton of sense if V didn't flop the nuts. His open looks small to me, too, but he made it sound like that was the standard open size in the game at the time. V could have been 3B'ing light out of the SB, and calling light, if he thinks hero's 4B range is wider in this configuration, facing a 3B from the SB. I'm not sure how I'd play the flop with hero's specific hand. I could see checking back for pot control. But I think I prefer betting really small, like 1/4 pot. V is going to fold most of his range to a bet of any size on this flop. Betting small puts the onus on V to figure out what his continue range is, and how he plays that range facing a small c-bet from hero. V's going to have to call with all his over-pairs with a diamond, and all his nut-flush AdXx draws, and it'll be harder for him to extract max value with his flopped flushes. If hero bets $150 on flop, and V wants to x/r, he can't go much bigger than 4x, or $600. Hero can call and evaluate on the turn. With $1800 in the pot and $1600 left behind, V can't go too big if he barrels the turn, if he wants hero to continue to the river. Otherwise, he can just jam with AdXx, and put hero to a big decision, getting worse than 2:1 on a call with still one card left to come. Facing that line from V, I think it's an easier call on the turn for hero. By c-betting small on the flop, hero puts all the pressure on V to come up with the optimal strategy for his nut hands, his worse pairs, and his semi-bluffs. If hero just checks back on flop, V is going to be taking the lead on turn a lot. Hero's going to be in a tough place, trying to figure out if he's ahead or behind after giving up the betting lead as the pre-flop 4B'er.

We are going to have a v high cbet freq IP in a 4b pot. Especially in this super tight configuration. Villain is stripped of many of his wheel combos calling a 4b from SB to a UTG 3x IP 4bet. But, yes, folding to turn shove was a blunder.

@@The_Life_Shoequatic If we're c-betting at a higher frequency, wouldn't it be correct to bet a smaller amount, especially on a monotone flop? My point is that folding turn MAY be a blunder, but it's a blunder hero put himself in position to make, by betting as large as he did on the flop. Had he c-bet smaller, it would have forced V to figure out how he's going to play his continue range, and if V decides to x/r flop, his x/r size is going to be smaller, making it harder for V to just jam turn after hero calls the flop x/r. The way this was played, I think V's range is skewed more towards value, less toward bluffs, and so it's not just a snap call. I expect V to have the nuts here a lot, when he takes this line.

@@1vailchrisagree. huge nut advantage for sb. utg be a check back on this board. if c-betting, it’s a small bet, 20% or even 10%.

@@1vailchris I think you & I have been down this road before. Now it obviously depends on configuration, board texture, villain image, & other factors. But I'm not assuming as many "give-ups" after check-raises as you are. And this was a main point of my post here; I think treating streets as totally separate is often a mistake. Bart addressed this in this particular video & that was a big thing I liked about it. This hand was 4 bet pre by the UTG player, I don't buy villain giving up on a blank turn when the raise on a monotone flop says "I flopped a flush and/or have the ace of diamonds". The villain really should not be check-raising even a set on this board texture. I also think the SPR is important here, villain sticking in like 35-40% of his stack as a check-raise on the flop of a 4 bet hand. I don't think this is ever a "stab". And if you don't like my reasons, Bart starts talking about this point at around 16:20 of the video. At any rate, I'm fine with folding on the flop here. Because I just can't really find many bluffs here. I also don't mind Bart's idea of allowing the turn card to further reveal our equity, but the entire idea of that is to continue on a blank. Therefore, the turn fold is the only wrong choice.

I think you are 100% right I don't see how you ever fold here. If they have the flush you have a possible 4 outs most likely 3 considering that the villain is likely holding an ace as well. You stick in the money hope he doesn't show you a flush and if he does you just hope you catch a card to win it.

You're assuming V wouldn't x/r the flop if hero c-bet big. In fact, hero's sizing was somewhat large for a monotone flop. If V just has an over-pair, and assuming he didn't x/r flop because hero c-bet bigger, hero could have flopped the nut flush, or at worst, hero probably has a bigger pair. Not every opponent is going to call a jam with just an over-pair after hero 4B pre and c-bets the monotone flop. As played, V 3B pre, called hero's 4B, then x/r'd flop and jammed turn from up front. Hard to see how V could take this line without the Ad in his hand. He's either flopped the nut flush, or he's drawing to it.

@@1vailchrisagree. sb has the nut advantage. utg’s goal should be to keep this pot small on that board. gotta get to showdown with aces in this spot.

@@bobby__conroy Yeah. After 4B'ing pre, hero is going to have more combos of over-pairs than flushes in his range. I don't like checking flop, because it sort of screams, "nuts or nothing", and induces V to take an aggressive line that's going to put a lot of pressure on hero's hand. I prefer a really small flop bet, like 1/4 pot, to put the pressure on V, who'll have to figure out what his continue range looks like, and how he plays that range. V is going to have to defend with a lot of his over-pairs and his draws. If V x/r's flop with a flopped flush, hero is going to have to fold a lot of his range, like all his AKs/AQs combos of other suits, so I think it's more likely V would check-call flop, and go for the x/r on the turn. With a smaller pot headed into the turn, hero can either check-back turn or bet and call a reasonable-size x/r, and get to the river without putting his whole stack at risk.

Villain called 4 bet from the small blind with 22?

@Dremin2009 yeah. He was deep when I sat down. Maniac image.

I played a similar hand about a year ago. Three ways to the flop in a 3- or 4-bet pot, I flop top set in middle position with 77 on a monotone board of 7-4-2, all spades. Checks to me, I bet 2/3 pot, V1 folds, V2 (the pre-flop 4B'er in the BB) x/r jams on me. He's a friend I've played against a lot, and he's a bit of a maniac. He could have easily had AA/KK/AK with one spade, or he could just be fast-playing the nuts. I called, knowing even if I was beat, I would boat up 40% of the time. Not this time. He had AsKs, and doubled up, crippling my once-huge stack. Calling 3B's and 4B's pre with small and middling pairs, and then blasting off with a flopped set on a monotone board is not advised. Your V with the 2's deserves to get stacked, and no doubt will soon enough.

The villain does not have the nut advantage on this flop lol.

agree nut advantage is the with the sb. warrants a check back on this flop. i would say, if utg is to c bet this flop, wager should be 10% - 20% max, which folds out sb air, and helps control pot size should sb x/r. small bet functions similar to a check and only folds out sb air. goal for utg is to get to showdown as cheaply as possible on this flop and turn. on river, if utg boats up, strategy can adjust.

very interesting hand. can learn a lot from this one.

At no point in this hand were there any tough spots. Not on any street at any time.

@@brettmasonmedia We may need to agree to disagree. Hero put himself in a tough spot by taking a larger sizing with his flop c-bet, setting up this turn jam by V, with no diamond in hero's hand. V either flopped the nut flush, or is drawing to it. With V's smaller x/r sizing (3:1 on a call), and his turn jam after hero calls (now getting >2:1), it looks more like he has it, and less like he doesn't. If hero had c-bet smaller, V's x/r would have been smaller, and there would be more stack depth left behind, making it less likely V would just jam turn. As played, this may be a call with hero's hand, but V's going to show him the nuts here a lot of the time. Even if V doesn't have it on the flop, he's going to make a flush or chop with a straight 20% of the time.

@@1vailchris you have turned marginal things into mountains man. Villain can have like 3 or 4 flush combos max. And tons of over pairs or hands with one diamond that play this same way. Flop bet sizing be damned.

@@brettmasonmedia ​ Like I said, we can agree to disagree. If you think V's playing a ton of over-pairs and hands with 1 diamond this way, and want to snap call with hero's hand, good luck, and I hope you win. The way this was played, I don't think it's a snap call, and in the games I play, I expect V to show me the nuts a lot.

@@1vailchris by definition they can’t have the nuts a lot. And also what does that even mean “agree to disagree?” We disagree whether anyone agrees to it or not. Nevertheless anyone folding this turn is losing money. Sometimes you are beat. Mostly you are ahead.

We can't fold river on a diamond if we call an all-in jam from V on the turn. This line from V is repping the nut flush, so really just AdXd, given the pre-flop action. Doubtful V is playing a worse pair this way, because all hero's bigger pair combos have him crushed, and half of those have a diamond in them. So V's semi-bluffs all have the Ad in them, like AdKx/AdQx. The way I count them, V has 6 bluff combos of AdKx/AdQx, and 5 value combos (AK/AQ/AJ/AT/A5 of diamonds). As played, with V's smallish x/r sizing on the flop and turn jam after hero calls, it skews V's range more towards value, and less towards bluffs.

Actually, after thinking about this one more, I think you were right to put KQ in V's range. The way this was played, KdQd makes more sense than anything else.

Folding flop is really terrible honestly

I was thinking about V's range with the pre-flop action. Hero's UTG raise is a little small, and apparently there's a rec player in the BB, so V in SB has an incentive to 3B wider. There could be some leveling going on, where hero knows V's 3B range is wide, so hero's 4B range can be wide, and V, knowing that, can call the 4B a little wide, and show up here with more made flushes. I was wondering if KK is a 5B pre in this spot. V's flop x/r and turn jam make it seem like he's got the Ad in his hand. I don't think KK or QQ is played this way post-flop if they just flatted the 4B pre.

@Click_Profile._for_.more_info. how about you keep that surprise for yourself. Make my day.

you should fold k4s to a 4 bet.

Bart has same take. Im very good in theory. Less so in practice lol.

What a beautiful turn… he folds!!!????

Thats just a never fold and i make insane folds and calls based on gut so if I played with this player soooooo many hands and i knew theyd only ever raise a flush in a 4 BET POT lol… then I’d fold. Only time.

I mean insane based on theory but I’ll call really light so its not scared money but I do make folds that disgust me in hindsight when I remove myself from the hand. Plenty of calls too.

4 bet pot. incentive is with utg to 4 bet small starting 250 bb deep. keeps in a wider sb range. 3x is fine. this board should always go x, x on flop. utg incentivized to jeep pot small and take free cards because sb has nut advantage.

Middling over-pairs (88-JJ) aren't going to x/r flop and jam turn after hero 4B's pre and c-bets flop. Hero's range has so many bigger over-pairs (QQ-AA) that have smaller over-pairs crushed, many with diamonds in them.

or 44 or 22. The thing that drives me nuts about these training videos is the misconception that the opponent is doing X because a trained thinking player would. I have played for income for 19 years and the simple truth is 90 plus percent of poker players are clueless. Bart had a video recently where he said the villain never gets to this point with K10. He never gets there with K10, lots of villains do....many many of them.

And the irony is Bart makes sure when he sits at Hustler he is always playing one of those short bus player streams so he knows how bad the opponents are.

In my room, the losing regs will do this a lot with overpairs. Looks like Mohegan Sun has at least 2 bad regs playing w/$2500. The villain's play is just as bad as the hero's.

@@timothyburke694944 or 22? If villain is bad enough to have those hands oop in a 4 bet pot then I’m never folding. If he has 44 then he also has 55 which is open ended that he could be bluffing with. Hero said that villain was a reg at 5-10, villain never has small PPs.

Doug Polk started doing that and it was just deadly boring stuff. I'm ok with this series being based on Bart's knowledge and experience, rather than mathematical solutions. His short-cut mental processes are more likely to be helpful to me when playing than solver solutions for each scenario.

Any schmuck can do a solver presentation. People tune in for Barts experience.

This show would be… just do your own show man. Most of us don’t come here for boring solver shit

One word springs to mind and it ends with 'anker'

Hopefully you don’t need a solver to tell you to snap call here

You fold on the flop. Now I’m even more speechless than I was by the callers turn fold. Holy shit man.

You're a losing player. 100% guaranteed.

@@noex100 yoru right.

It's not "their." But then again, that's the least of your problems.

Oh, and also not, "YOUR."

The grammar may be bad but they aren't wrong. Assuming i'm understanding what they're saying@@skelthouser2730