Gaslighting From Mormon Leadership | Mormonism LIVE! 069 

Yeah when I was guilted into going on my mission (Taipei, Taiwan), we were told at every district and zone conference to push for an invitation for baptism on the first discussion. It wasn't implied, it was mandated. Love you guys. Currently awaiting confirmation that my name has been removed. It's been a really interesting past couple of years for me learning that the system of oppression in which I was raised is all a sham - you guys have really helped me find the humor in it all.

I came across a great example of gaslighting a couple weeks ago. I was unpacking my church library the other week after it had been in storage about a year. I came across Joseph Fielding Smith's Answers to Gospel Questions. As I flipped through the first volume, I saw a question on the Blood Atonement, and I was eager to see if he'd throw Brigham under the bus or declare it false doctrine or something. The result was amazing! Question: "Will you kindly explain the meaning of the doctrine of blood atonement and the stand of the Church in relation to capital punishment? “ Answer: The doctrine of blood atonement has reference to the great sacrifice made by Jesus Christ in the shedding of his blood upon the cross. Through that sacrifice the power of death was destroyed, and all mankind receive the blessing of restoration to immortality that they can die no more. When Adam was placed in the Garden of Eden he was immortal and could have lived forever; likewise all things that had been created as well as Adam and Eve "... must have remained in the same state in which they were after they were created; and they must have remained forever, and had no end." ( 2 Nephi 2:22 .) Had that kind of existence continued, Adam and Eve could not have fulfilled the first great commandment given them in the garden- to multiply and fill the earth with their posterity .( Genesis 1:28 :, 2 Nephi 2:23-25 . ) and the great plan of salvation voted upon and accepted in the world of spirits, before the earth was formed, would have failed.( Moses 4:1-4 ; Abraham 3:22-28 .) He goes on for 7 pages, describing the atonement of Jesus, not even mentioning Brigham's name in the entire text. But at the very end, he kind of gets close to what the original Blood Atonement was all about by noting that the scriptures mention a few crimes are worthy of the death penalty: "And now, behold, I speak unto the church. Thou shalt not kill; and he that kills shall not have forgiveness in this world, nor in the world to come. And, again, I say, Thou shalt not kill; but he that killeth shall die.( D. & C. 42:18-19 .) Is it the prerogative of the Church to inflict the punishment? No! The Lord has given commandment that all offenses worthy of death shall be handled by the courts of the land as declared in the Doctrine and Covenants, "And it shall come to pass, that if any persons among you shall kill they shall be delivered up and dealt with according to the laws of the land; for remember that he hath no forgiveness; and it shall be proved according to the laws of the land." (Ibid., 42:79.)" Note that's not at all what Brigham taught. Not a single mention of someone's throat being slit and their blood spilled upon the ground as an offering to God in order for them to be forgiven, or that if he saw one of his wives in bed with another man that his kindest action would be to cast a javelin through them both on the spot that they may receive forgiveness in heaven. Oh no, according to JFS, the blood atonement is really just Jesus' atonement. If you thought it was something different, you must be crazy.

This episode needs to be re-broadcast every few months....with lots of buildup!!! And the song....the SONG. Once a month end the show ...or begin the show with this ditty!! Brilliant. Best episode in ages....and that's going some!. Thanks, all.

I served in 1984 in southern Mexico. We challenged investigators to be baptized at the end of the first discussion. Every time. The challenge was posed as "if you came to learn this church was true, would you be baptized in the church?" If they didn't accept, we were instructed to dump them. Now that was a mission-specific rule, but this practice has been around for a long time.

WHAT!! I don't get my own planet! OK that's where I draw the line. I was promised that if I endured the abuse of mormonism I would get my planet.. that's it, I'm out.

The clip that starts around 1:28:50 completely shattered my testimony of the current leaders. I had learned all the history when I stumbled upon the gospel topics essays, but for years I tried to stay…. I hoped the current leaders were good, even though I lost any respect for JS or BY etc. I was desperately looking for ways to stay… something to keep me from leaving and this clip broke me. It felt like a slap in the face. I was in an emotionally abusive marriage 20 years ago and the way I felt watching this had an eerily similar feeling to it.

I was taught and taught: As man now is, god once was; as god now is, man may become.

This episode rates up there as one of my favorites. Good work and thank you.

An experience I had with Mormon gaslighting: When I began studying my way out of the church in the late '90s, I re-read every "Ensign" magazine which I had saved over the years. Not every word, but mostly the historical and doctrinal articles. During the late '90s, the "Ensign" published articles on the lives and ministries of Joseph Smith and Brigham Young. There wasn't a single word about "plural marriage" or "polygamy" in either article. Polygamy was a prime cause of Joseph Smith's death, but the "Ensign" editors didn't see fit to mention a word of it. Similarly, in the late '90s, the church published a new priesthood lesson manual titled "The Teachings Of Brigham Young." Again, there wasn't a word about plural marriage, even though Young had 56 "plural wives." A timeline of events in his life in the front of the manual listed his marriage to his first wife, then noted that she died, and he remarried. But not a word about the other 55 women he "plural married." Any young person or recent convert who studied out of that manual would have no clue that Brigham Young was a polygamist. Since polygamy is the #1 thing that Mormonism is known for, that is gaslighting at its finest.

Kind of puts a whole new light on the order to just toss out all old physical manuals when they became “updated.”

RFM is my hero. “Words are not violence. Violence is violence”. Am I upset that I was lied to my entire life in the Church, about sooo many things? Yes, I am. But It still isn’t the same as being physically hurt. People need to quit equating the two. “Sticks and stones will break my bones, but words can never hurt me”. I was raised with that as well

This is going down as one of my favorites! Thank you so much! I will say that I served my mission between 2010-2012 and the last little 6 months or so my mission pressured and pushed for committing investigators to baptism after the first lesson and if the spirit says otherwise then at the end of the second lesson. I remember a huge zone conference where the “field is white and already to harvest” so we need to harvest now and stop dragging our feet. Great work guys keep it up!

When I was a missionary ('95 - '97) we reported, as one of our weekly numbers, the number of invitations to baptism we extended that week. I served in Italy where, despite the inflated numbers we often claimed to look good, we were lucky to have 2 or 3 actual, full blown lessons.

OMG- song was fabulous!

The movie Gaslight was based on the play Angel Street and, if I remember correctly, the antagonist on stage was originally played by Vincent Price. I wish they had a film version with him. He must've been fantastic. Charles Boyer was sufficiently creepy though. Fantastic film!

Gaslighting/deceit - Decades ago when I joined the church as a teenager I was taught by the missionaries that Joseph Smith TRANSLATED the book of mormon directly from the gold plates. A couple of years later when I served my full time mission I was instructed to teach investigators same. With every calling I had as a gospel doctrine teacher I taught same. Now the church is teaching JS read the words for the BOM from a stone in a hat! There were no gold plates and no translation and the witnesses did not see the gold plates [only spiritually]! I relied on those witnesses believing that if they were lying they were in big trouble with God! I am now grateful that I know the truth and the church cannot gaslight me any more. I was a fool to believe what the church told me - I am a fool no longer!

1:29:38 I am one of the girls that the video pans over. I am disgusted that I was nodding along... this was a college face to face at USU. I am no longer a member (and havent been for a year) and this gaslighting hits harder knowing that I believed him so strongly.

My in laws were in the same ward as James Allen for 35 years. I was in that ward in the early 80's and late 90's early 2000's. Allen served as gospel doctrine teacher during my second time in that ward and not one time did he speak of an 1832 account. He loved to ruffle us ladies by reading Paul saying women should be silent. He would smirk and laugh. And yes, Orson Scott Card would show up now and again as he married the Allen's daughter. A feather in the cap of that ward.

my first notice of editing of conference talks was when elder quinton cook's was a fresh apostle, and I saw the printed talk leave out some of his words that were very memorable.

Yep. In my mission in the United States in the late 90s. We were instructed to ask people to be baptized, while tracting, at the front door!

I joined the church in 1999, and had 6 discussions, and an interview by the stake president, before being baptized.

Great episode guys!!! Looking forward to listening to you next week

Loved this episode! And that song is pure gold!

In the California Arcadia Mission in 1977 we were given a special extended discussion that was designed for us to challenge and baptize the investigator at the end of that very first lesson. Discussions were arranged to be held at a Church with a baptismal font. Midway through this special 2 hour discussion the investigator was challenged. The font was either already filled, or it would start to be filled if the baptism challenge was accepted.

1:37:59 Thank you RFM! Speech is free no matter how ugly it may sound!

Such a good episode, and an AMAZING song!!! Love you guys!

Well, technically.... Nelson was talking about "worlds" and "kingdoms", not planets. So...you know...it could be more like Disney World or the Magic Kingdom. In other words, righteous Mormons may get many theme parks within the much bigger theme park owned and operated by Elo and Jeho. The CEO of each theme park is the god of that theme park. (Be sure to check out the "Celestial Harem Fun House" and the "Pirates of the Kolobbean" ride.) Although, logically, it would be reasonable to infer that they were talking about planets in the past, the leaders can still fall back on the old "We know what you inferred from what we implied, but what we implied was not what we meant" gambit. As gambits go, it can be handy in a pinch.

I disagree with RFM this time regarding words can be violent! When people use words to make fun of others, it’s cruel! Leaders like Bred Wilcox using words to make fun of blacks and women, people laughed and thought it was cool. How could this be ok? My daughter was made fun of in the seminary class, her teacher didn’t correct those bullies but laughed and brushed it off. This is the sad part about it! Kindness matters and words can kill! Those bully victims went shooting at school because people thought bullies were being funny!

Epic!

Another great episode. The whole planet stuff is hysterical. However, the planet stuff is imperialistic in concept.

In a friend's mission in the last year they were told they couldn't teach of Christ until the investigator was baptized.

Language can be violent. It was once taught from the ward I was in where it was stated that the cause of cancer was not keeping the word of wisdom. I had cancer. I do not smoke and I do not drink!

The whole situation is due to pressure from “above” to maximize baptisms, regardless of whether or not those baptized ever activate as members.

Gaslight dir: George Cukor starring Charles Boyer as the wonderful man who does nothing wrong, Ingrid Bergman as the woman who makes his life a living hell, and Joseph Cotton as a busybody who ruins everything for everybody. There is an earlier British Film by the same name directed by Thorold Dickinson. Gaslight dir: Thorold Dickinson, Anton Walbrook, Diana Wynyard, Robert Newton. Shot by Bernard Knowles. Knowles shot many of of Hitchcock's films in the 1930s, was the uncredited director of the Magical Mystery Tour. There is a British DVD and a Spanish Blu-ray available.

Interesting changes about the church's website. Thanks for bringing it to our attention Bill. I got on to see the changes and realized that the church’s website for the UK still has the full older page up "Mormonism 101: Frequently Asked Questions". The US page is now called "Latter-day Saints 101: What Church Members Believe". Aside from the US page scrubbing the word "Mormon" as thoroughly as they could, another question is missing besides the planet one and that is "Do Mormons believe that the Garden of Eden is in Missouri". What could be their reason for removing that question? My guess, if we are going to agree that SCMC listens in, would be because Feminine Mormon Housewives just did a great episode about Missouri and the amount of mormons from many different branches that are flocking there. But maybe that's just my conspiracy mind at play and it's just super coincidental that the 2 questions that related to 2 popular post-mormom podcasts are the ones missing from the church's US page.

I wish you could do an episode on the sexism. There's been a lot of gaslighting regarding that.

Amazing show

So glad I listened to you tonight and came across this!! Thank You

I'm a librarian with a degree in information science. Changing/removing press releases and talks with no notation regarding updates or changes is so completely unethical and shady. It's embarrassing that the church is so willing to do what most recognize as so bad.

In 1975, we were taught in the MTC to memorize the baptismal challenge first. On the mission, we were taught from Alvin R Dyer’s Challenging and Testifying Missionary to challenge for baptism at the first meeting so it’s nothing new !

This is so important. I joined the church in the late 1960’s. Because it was a very small branch, I never got any training for new members. I got the warped ideas of the branch president who was eventually excommunicated for an affair. I taught from the manuals we were given and learned about the church through the curriculum. So many members have such a warped idea of what the church believes because so many have such poor leaders. We never had classes on the Bible in the entire time I was in the church. We all learned we were preparing to be gods and have our own world”s”. Question is who back tracked this teaching.

Howdy Doody. Almost thought I spied the strings!!!!

WHAT! NO PLANET??? I'm totally out!! OH WAIT- Nelson saved the day, I'm back in!

Great intro!

I think jesus also gas lighted up people. When his disciples could not cast out devils or miracles he claimed them for not having enough faith.

1:15:17 Don’t worry; supplemental material is found in the recordings of Nephi 😉

At the 18:54 mark about Elder Ballard not knowing where the practice of baptizing after the 1st discussion came from - - - - I can answer that! I served a mission 1985 - 1987. Mission president at that time encouraged us to prepare investigators to think about or consider baptism from first contact. I was in a situation, at one part of my mission, where a non-mormon who had been dating a mormon girl had been taught about church by the girl's parents and the non mormon person approached my companion and I and told us he wants to be baptized. I know of one missionary, in the same mission and time frame, while door knocking one day used as a door approach at one door said "we are here to baptize you." The home owner was baptized within that week. The mission I was in at the time, after my 2 years was up was baptizing about 350 people per month with 75% retention. We had missionaries, who after their 2 year service, going home with anywhere from 40 - 50 baptisms to their name. After my 2 years, I had 45 baptisms. I am happy to answer any questions about but not on-line.

1:59:18 eh no. Threats, like the example of shouting fire in a crowded blah, are also not protected speech. Threats of violence are violence. Criminal law recognizes this in the charge of assault (which can be words alone in the form of a threat), distinct from battery (the physical violence). Our legal institutions recognize a variety of similar distinctions, as we all do in our day to day lives; between words as rhetoric and words as threats, and none of us would characterize credible threats as just words. Expounding on the topic of gaslighting; when abusers use gaslighting as a form of manipulation, for instance, for the purposes of inducing trauma, inflicting harm, or reinforcing bondage/captivity (physical or psychological, or both) etc, it is no longer reasonable to argue 'sticks and stones may break my bones yadayadayada'. Inducing trauma as a form of torture is obviously beyond 'words is just words' notions. It is torture and trauma, which is violence.

I left the Church because I was taught I would become a God and have my own world to create. In my teen mind I thought that how is that possible? If God is Omnipresent… everywhere then wouldn’t we then be bumping up against each other if there are many Gods??????it seemed so wrong. So when I found Buddhism I knew it was bullshit. I was right in leaving. This makes so much sense… I was gaslighted and knew it!!!!

I think words can do damage, and it's tricky to navigate the tenets of free speech vs. providing protections for the people from lies or slander etc. I think words can cause real lasting psychological damage, and it's all too easy to hide behind the fact that it was just rhetoric and no one actual physically did harm to you. I think when any church perpetrates fraud upon it's members it should be held to account. Churches shouldn't be so insulated from consequences.

And there are still believers and apologists! 🤦🏻‍♀️🤦🏻‍♀️🤦🏻‍♀️

My understanding wasn't that LDS people get their own planets. I've heard some people mention that before but I never heard the leadership say anything specifically about a planet. My understanding was that LDS people are supposed to get their own universe, that everything in this universe is owned by God and LDS people would each get their own universe where they would create and own everything within it.

Guys, there was no Academy Awards this year. The one shown this week was taped in 2020 (according to meta data on the file).

The documents you showed at 20:00 were from the additional booklet "The First 12 Weeks", not from the original "Preach My Gospel" manual. I know that it was distributed to me and other missionaries during my mission from 2013-2015. Unfortunately, I can't find a PDF of that handout online. Can you share where you found those screenshots?

I agree with RFM. They are embarrassed by their own teachings and they genuinely do appear weak. Mormonism has grown weak and boring. At least Bruce McConkie was interesting

“NO PLANET FOR YOU!”

I'm very late to this party, but I really want to make the point that in anthropology (I am an anthropologist), we talk about different forms of violence. Violence is not always physical. We also have structural violence, which I would argue that the Mormon church perpetrates on its members on the daily and involves institutions and institutional rules that actively injure those who live under those strictures and keep them from meeting their basic needs (tithing for people who can't afford to buy food, as an example). There is also symbolic violence, which is a kind of violence that is often internalized and is based on agreed upon rules that reinforce dangerous or imbalanced power structures. Language itself (or specific words) may not be violence on their own, to RFM's point, but the reinforcement of the harmful, internalized social norms that are represented by that language most definitely IS.

5'6" Spencer W. Kimball died November 5, 1985, in Salt Lake City, UT. He was 81 years old. May he rest in Peace.

Oh wow. I taught “investigators” from that Gospel Fundamentals manual in that far off disorganized country known as New York City.

I agree strongly that free speech matters and should be protected, and that we need to be able to disagree and argue and be exposed to more ideas than just what we are exposed to to have a healthy society But as a victim of childhood verbal abuse( as well as others) I have to disagree that words are never violent. It effects you psychologically, developmentally, it effects your attachment styles, which effect your relationships with your friends, family and significant others, it effects your ability to trust others to feel safe , to feel safe sleeping at night while dealing with PTSD and taking years to overcome challenges associated with it as well as witnessing verbal assault against my Mother words can be violence. And I’m sure those on the end of racial and homophobic slurs would also say words can be violent

I definitly dont want any damn planet to worry about😮

after reading old newspapers on joseph smith from 1840’s i realized its built on sand

Will Smith....all a big political act...but however...back to the more important topic...thank you for your deep dedication, it is very much appreciated.

When is someone going to interview Weird Alma? That guy is brilliant!

Aren't talks approved ahead of conference or do they just punt and hope the speakers don't do something odd?

🖤 Fantastic show tonight!

I read Hamilton’s play Angel Street (Gas Light). The so-called heroine of the piece is Mrs Manningham who comes across as a combination of Desdemona, Lady Macbeth and Macbeth’s witches who plots the destruction of her husband. Hamilton describes Mrs Manningham as “about thirty-four. She has been good-looking, almost a beauty-but now she has a haggard, wan, frightened air, with rings under her eyes, which tell of sleepless nights and worse.” What a hag. Her husband Mr Manningham, a wonderful man who does nothing wrong, apparently has a DIY interest in remodeling their Pimlico home. This enrages Mrs Manningham so she takes every opportunity to incite his anger. He can’t even take her to a play without getting to an argument. As the play ends Mr Mannering is dragged off the stage on some trumped up charge, “Mrs. Manninham stands apart, “trembling with homicidal rage.” Celebrating the destruction of her husband she declares this evening to be “the most wonderful. Far and away the most wonderful” [evening of her life].

So… who actually runs the church/business- the “spiritually guided” leaders or the ghost-like correlation committee? Asking for a friend. 😉

Awesome show!!

Bill... bad take on the Will Smith slap.

I left because of RTS , I guess I was just naive

Brulliant anology...❤❤❤

Sticks and stones may break my bones but words will always hurt me. Think about it RFM. Always disagreed with that old saying. You can heal from bruises but hurtful words live on in the heart and soul. verbal abuse is dangerous....

Alas, there goes my eternal plan of being posthumously sealed to RFM and chasing each other around a garden on our own planet. Then come the spirit children of course. Ah well.

This is a real reach to try to fit a gas light for their own not picking. . Trying to make a big deal out of nothing. What's the point?

Mormon Discussions sells a t-shirt that says "F Your God" with a stick figure f***ing the words "Your GOD.

Angry words, angry shouting can definitely be violence

Wendy! What happened to you? I grew up Peter.

Thank you RFM for your position on words never equating to violence. That is a trope left leaning people have adopted recently in order to justify dictating what words are allowed in the public forums. Thank you for also pointing out that this is ultimately where the "words are violence" bull crap leads (to justifying essentially a 1984 scenario where you are not allowed to speak anything unless it is approved by the people in power)

What total bunkum!

Brigham was false and ol'joe was fallen....but the church is true right??

My planet would have been the garden of eden without adam and eve. People screw everything up.

hm

It's been happening for centuries notice brown women always single an falling behind or forgotten because Serena is the goddess that is with Elo.

1:38:41 tough crap Bill. Words are not violent! So it hurt your feelings so what? Walk away if you don’t like it.

Way too much time on your hands. Really reaching.

And physical violence is always violence

These guys are nothing but skeevy weasels.

Which was essentially true bullshit. The Flakes.Jayne Manning James. Church just sucks at Truth......

So Bill says the guy at the pageant criticizing the church is worse than the church, but the cynicism and criticism in this channel gets a pass?

Chris Rock did not mock Jada Smith. He may not have known of her alopecia. She is still beautiful even if she has extremely short hair. She is NOT bald. Will S. was just using his position as an A list black actor to dump his male rage on another black man, one less powerful than he. It was HE who felt insulted, obviously. The whole incident is a new low for the Oscars and for Hollywood in general. The academy apparently asked him to leave and he apparently refused. The Smiths should have been escorted out by security and the Best Actor Award held in abeyance until a later date. The whole program has a real “ick” factor to it; awards for deserving technical artists were awarded at some other time and dozens of odd nobodies were there while Hollywood’s best and brightest were nowhere to be seen. Were they the wrong race, or what? The whole thing had a cheap and tawdry feel to it. Hollywood really needs to clean up its act.

I listened for 32 minutes, but your constant mocking gets tiresome. Try to be a little more original. Buh bye.