HONDA INJECTORS-POSITION FOR POWER! 

Direct injection was blended with port for multiple reasons. Valve coking charge cooling and drivability as well. Port injection tends to produce more of an even power curve than direct injection alone. Blending port and direct gets the best of both worlds nice even power curve good fuel efficiency at highway speeds and cleanliness in the intake ports.

I'm thinking about rebuilding my 08 tsx. I paid the car off last year and I've always wanted to turn that car into a beast. This content is inspiring.

Thank you for taking your time and making these videos. A lot of us old school B series guys appreciate it very much

This is a cool video! Hardly ever see anyone running stand off injection. It seems intimidating, but it’s basically just tbi in principle. I have a 86x95, strolker, roller rocker cam b series with kinsler ITBs & run stand off injection. Earl at kinsler talked me into trying it out and I’m glad he did. I only run on the stand-off injectors- not staged.

Combining direct injection with upstream injectors also helps with cleaning the backs of the intake valves which was a huge problem in early DI engines at high milage

as a b18c1 owner these B series videos make me feel warm and gooey

I have a 86x97 b series with roller rocker conversion and kinsler itbs that I run stand-off injection. Earl at kinsler talked me into it years ago. Motor makes well over 300whp. Cool video

I like that the throttle body injected engines also clean the throttle butterfly leading to more reliability

I went with Skunk2 Stage 3 Tuner cams, dual valve springs, and titanium retainers in my built turbo LSVTEC and they're awesome. I also have a Skunk2 3.5L Ultra Race intake manifold and their 90mm throttle body.

I've been waiting for this video for a while. Thanks.

Great video!, a few vehicles come to mind that have dual fuel injection systems, Plenty of motorcycles, My 2007 CBR 600RR had it, and Ski Doo is running it on their 850 2 strokes. I'm sure there are tons more as it just makes sense.

I know from experience that there are large differences in tuning acceleration enrichment (pump shot) and deceleration enleanment between a port setup and FI where the injectors are at or above the throttle body. That can really make or break how the engine responds to throttle input if not tuned properly. In a lot of cases, MAP based AE can be eliminated on a port setup, as the system is able to respond to a changing load much faster due to the proximity of the injectors to the valve (less lag). Wall wetting is still a concern for both, but again, not as prominent a port setup. It would be interesting to see how each affected the emissions, but that's no fun! I really dig these conceptual test videos. I've often wondered how injector position and angle affect the efficiency of an engine, say between a Holley Stealth Ram and TPI intake.

Hmmm?....I think there's more going on here. The injector oriented in this configuration perfectly straight down the intake stack is creating a small vacuum shockwave behind it, bringing in even more air. Also the injector tip protruding down into the intake opening is helping to stabilize the incoming air reducing turbulence and improving intake charge even more, and I'm sure there's very little if none wet flow reaching the combustion chamber. 11hp is a lot on that motor. I think that is a really cool design you came up with on your Honda Richard! I really enjoy your videos and I'm waiting for the Gen V LT1 6.2 stuff :) Joe

Great data, thanks for sharing!

Very cool test.

I'm working on a GM LN2 pushrod 2.2 aiming for 225hp using the same idea. I'm using Megasquirt 3.57x with two sets of injectors, one down at the port and one at the top of the stack. Intake ports have been raised 3/8". Cam by Webcam via Chevy Cavalier World.

My understanding is that a big part of the benefit of higher mounted injectors is that the mass of the fuel actually adds to the inertia of the mixture and improves intake flow at higher rpms.

One thing id like to try is Rear mount turbo/intercooler Immediately after the intercooler run a large injector so you have like 6 ft for the primary fuel injector to do charge cooling Then have 1 injector on each port to fine tune AFR

Keep talking, all this knowlage is very interesting, i wish i had a friend with your knowlage to sit and bounce ideas off of👍

Great video

I think the answer is to introduce cool air and position injectors to do what they do. If you're asking fuel to produce combustion and cool the intake air there will be additional compromises. Plastic intake manifolds and cold air intakes are a start

Great info. I think i will look into this for my 1.8 16v VW motor on ITB i run in scca solo 2 FSP.

Very cool content!

Thanks for sharing!!!

3:20 port injection was mostly brought back to keep the intake valve from coking

Part of the hybrid direct/port injection motivation is maintenance. Some engines have had serious problems with coking etc. BMW in particular is known for it. Something that you mentioned previously was that you saw the fuel charge pulsing at the ends of the runners. I think it would be super cool to see a video of the ends of the runners compared to the RPM in the dyno chart it occurred. I wouldn't be surprised if you could determine where peak torque would occur based on the video.

A lot of high performance motorcycle engines have dual injector setups, and you can find some power playing around in the ECU with the balance between the shower injectors and the ones in the TBs.

Nice video. We did this back in 2001 on a all motor 20v Volkswagen. Noticed the same 12% or so increase on race fuel. It didn’t seem to help as much on methanol with the all motor B series we were finishing up so we stayed with port injection. Anyone else try this with methanol and have success? Both motors were all motor. Big cams and around 15:1 compression.

This why the sides of my old carbed blower felt cool or even cold after a pass on e85.

While charge cooling may be improved, there is also the benefit of better mixing of the fuel and air, which is what I've seen more often cited. It would have been useful if you'd incorporated some method of measuring the charge temperature at the port - maybe integrated with a nylon (or similar material) thermal barrier between the head and the intake manifold? Cool video, though.

This guy loves Honda’s good to see Honda power

Great stuff! we are building a b18 race engine at the moment.

I've been REEEAAALLY curious about 'stand-off' style injector mounting for a long time - particularly in big tunnel ram V8 stuff, where it's seemingly showed up the least in history. But, there's just never been any data/info available on this stuff, not even basic info besides what you could derive yourself. In the JDM world, it seemed like the guys running stand-off injection either "thought it was cool", or were racing pretty seriously and keeping the cards to their chest. With Holley offering the Hi-Ram for small block Fords now - and given that there's a 10:1 306" Twisted Wedge SBF right out in the garage - that could be the 'perfect candidate' to explore this further. Thanks for covering some of the basics, Rich! Would love to see you explore this with some V8 tunnel ram stuff in the future; the Holley Hi Ram is always the obvious choice now, but what about something like a giant old school Weiland tunnel ram too? Love the look of those old school tunnel rams, they really need to make a come back! lol

Good video. At least from what I have read in the past, you would need to be careful about placing injectors ahead of any abrupt turns. As problems of uneven fuel distribution due to centrifugal speration, could possibly outweigh the other benefits.

On Brazil since we didn't had big injectors available on the early 2000s people started using two injectors one on the stock location and another up at the plenum that would supply the extra fuel on boost and nowdays it is still being used because its cheaper and people realized it added power

I'd like to see the difference between the bosses at the head and where the intake came with the bosses already machined. Probably a smaller difference than what Richard did. It would be close to going from port injection to tbi. With individual throttle bodies you can tweak the fuel mixture to each cylinder though as opposed to something like what the GMC TBIs were where you have common runners.

Honda stuff!!!! Very cool!!!

Right on

ive always wanted to see someone try those carb style 4bbl throttle body spacers with holes for injectors. i bet it would cool super nice and make great power. plus it would be great for converting old 4bbl carb intakes to efi without any machine work.

I believe it is suzuki that is now running dual injectors on their 250cc MX bike. The injectors are staggered on the intake runner for optimum power delivery

Nice educational vid Richard . That’s not why the OEM’s are moving a second set of injectors to the manifold , it’s the warranty claims from the back of valves getting coated in oil and carbon causing the associated problems as the fuel washes the valves eliminating that problem .

Dude! you get the best ideas and make dreams happen for us. Thanks! All kinds of things I always wanted to know I now know.

Direct injection is good for the valves would say in a street strip set up. Keep from gunk building up and valve lap tolerances

Could you imagine what say, a tuned port SBC would look like with the injectors in front of the runners, the injectors would be in top of the plenum, maybe that could be an idea for a LS intake! Like a Holley hi-ram with the injectors on top, firing in to the ports, may be worth a try!!

I hope the manufacturers thanked for this in more than one way. How about an evaporator core that resides in the air box for serious cold air intake charge all year long ;) .

Richard, correct me if I’m wrong. But, doesn’t relying on the fuel to absorb the heat from the air also get the fuel closer to its flash point? Wouldn’t you want to keep the fuel at an optimal temperature to not have preignition? Maybe in your testing the fuel wasn’t getting heated up to the point of preignition and you only saw benefits. If this setup were to be installed into a street car with high IATs it would probably be more limited on ignition timing. Isn’t that one of the benefits of Direct Injection? You can run high compression because the fuel charge isn’t getting heated up as much? Thanks for running these tests. I just feel like there’s more to the story than charge cooling.

I love the adjustable bracket! Did you have to adjust the injector timing when you moved them? To get really crazy, it'd be interesting to use a linear actuator to move it closer at low rpm and further away at high rpm.

KTM LC8 engineers found that a shower head injector allowed extra time for the fuel to atomize and charge cool at high rpms. They switch fueling between injectors based on conditions. I think the gains were fairly small but Everything counts I guess

Engine science is dope

Good stuff ma!

This should have an even bigger effect on a boosted application, yes? I’m thinking of my Foxbody 5.0 with Vortech @ 9 pounds boost. Should be able to put the injector on the top of my GT40 intake. Thanks!👍Tony

Some motorcycle v twins had the injector mounted over the entrance to the bellmouth, right in the centre.

More Honda stuff Please ...

Can u also increase the timing with the lower charge air temp

That means you can make any carb fuel injected. Nice! Happy Canada Day!

This is great, but id like to see video of the test ;-)

Saw Jon Kaase do a custom intake that actually had the injectors facing up toward the plenum.

If your looking for n/a power fro a Honda then I would recommend the f20b from a euro accord sir.

This was absolute gold for content Richard. Thanks for making the video!!

Regarding the 200 HP back in the day, i remember about Omniman's 200 WHP B16A, they made a DVD showing the build. But a ton of $$$ in the head, valves, etc.

I need this for my d16y7 with nitrous

Love the Honda stuff just out of curiosity have you ever seen or tried a Pro 1 intake cam with the type R exhaust cam I’ve got a pro 1 intake cam with supertech springs but the exhaust cam was trashed 😔 and I can’t buy just the exhaust cam this for a high compression LS/vtec I love all your videos Man I binge watch them all the time lol also I’ve noticed you run a lot of the LS stuff open throttle body on the dyno and I remember you did the same test on the b series in your book and lost power just curious about your thoughts on that and why the LS benefits but not the Honda stuff sorry for the long text thank you for sharing what you’ve learned through the years

Anyone ever run back-to-back test of -30F fuel vs 75F vs 120F fuel ?

Great stuff man! Makes me feel better putting a carburetor on my LS 😂

Richard, that veredict on the bell mouth mounted injectors was very surprising to me, and considering the power the engine had before that represents a significant percentual gain in top end power but can you comment on the low rev and low load opperation qualities? if you scrutinize cylinder head and intake manifold designs evolution from 90's engines to 2010/2015 engine designs you realize that manufacturers have been steering away from intake manifold mounted injectors and started placing them directly on the cylinder heads, right above the ports. Basically moving them closer and closer to the valves (talking about port injection presence of course). Did you lose anything when comparing bell mounting vs "closer" mounting?

You just bought me back to high school with super street

DUCATI TestaStretta 749/999 engines had shower injectors, albeit according to those in the know too much throttle body and runner size(engine would die at low rpm and run like poop) apparently due to low air velocity. Many superbikes come shower and port equipped from the factory nowadays.

Time to do a dual set of injectors on a Holley Hiram. One down on the port for drivability and an upper set for WOT and boost. It could almost make the inter cooler redundant?

Port injection on direct injection cars also helps to clean up the intake valves. Who likes cold start misfires and walnut blasting intake ports anyway?

After seeing this video and looking at the 12 valve vw vr6 engine. The injectors are spraying directly on the intake valve in cyls 2,4,6 short runners. Then placed 4" upstream in cyls 1,3,5 in the long runner cyls. Would making a new manifold that puts all 6 injectors equal distance from the intake valves make some noticable gains in the vr6 engines? at least improve the balance of power between the banks? I am going to give it a try after watching this.

How do you run that setup without an air filter

How about the atomization or puddling effect? Or is there any truth to it?

Hey Richard have you ever done anything with the older 2.3 turbo Ford stuff?

Such a good video idea. I would like to see methanol or water+methanol injection positioning on a turbo application. back in the day I used to spray methonol in to the turbo impeller. Would it cause impeller damage? Is there an intake temp difference pre or post turbo.

The new super stock cars basically run the injectors as high as they can before they get into the plenum. I’m curious as to how this would do on a long tube or high ram intake and how fuel pooling would affect it

Would a Water Meth system work on N/A? And with that in mind, does an engine make more power in the winter time then the fall?

What about the (ford)pi intake adapters to npi heads? Would moving the injector up 3/8 of an inch warrant changing the injection timing or tune or could I keep the stock tune

👐

I would like to see u do a test with a sbc use a zex perimeter nitrous plate and run meth injection into the perimeter nitrous plate to see if it improves power on a blow through turbo application and then try it naturally aspirated to see if it has any affect on power by cooling intake and incoming air fuel charge might make for some don't interesting dyno testing .. no nitrous just meth injection mix into perimeter zex plate

Plz plz plz plz plz make a video for J30A1 engines. I have a 98 honda accord 3.0 v6 and I want to know what I can do with that engine to make its best power. It's rare to find one custom with good power, so plz help me out with a video, I learn better Iif I watch and listen.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I was under the impression stand off injection suffers in light throttle and transient conditions.. Not sure I'd want it on a daily personally. Honda 1L bikes use port and stand off injection depending on the RPM and load

What’s the best injector? The next injector.

Did you needed to change the programing on the injector offset ( latency) while you moved up or down, or did those ECU didn't had that option?

Is this place good for turbo?

Injector spray and timing matters too.

Hey Richard. This question is not about this video but it does touch on other videos that you covered but not all in one video. I’m installing 1.8 stainless rockers on a 2003 5.3. Plus changing pushrods to 7.450 and adding long tube headers with corvette style side pipes. I’ve bought everything I need for the valve train change except a cam. I’m wondering what gains I can expect from this minor upgrade if it’s minor. FYI it’s all stock yet except a cai. the 7.450 is to compensate the studs and valve guide plates. I gave the plates a 1/16 thickness to a decimal of.0625. Stock pushrod is 7.385?? So I’m not gaining anything on lash . But needed to buy a valve cover riser. Lol. I like to know what ya think. From what it sounds you’ve been around the world and then some in your engine building and racing career. Awesome life you’ve had. Thanks Richard.

Richard do you think using a tbi type of fuel injection such as the msd atomic or holley sniper would then be beneficial over port fuel injection (on the same manifold) ? And also, if we run e85 would the change be even more apparent?

Power most certainty :) happy car park manors.... .... .... Kind of like trying to drive a DCOE carb with no idle/low speed circuits at low revs... sounds tuff, but 99/100 you have to run super rich until you get on song. One of the real challenges with setup's like these is developing a viable air cleaner setup. It's a non-trivial task. Only wish we could have heard it.

That is a great video Richard. I always wanted to know the results of that kind of testing.

Did you have to add extra fuel to account for fuel clinging to a larger area of the intake runner or is that only a small difference?

Id love to hear about the disadvantages of this setup?

I know this is a 2-year-old video but I'm surprised you didn't mention how every sport bike manufacturer uses this in their high horsepower bikes. Standard injector placement for low RPM drivability. And then a second stage injector that's literally in the air box spraying down the velocity stacks for the extra fuel in the upper RPMs.

Ok demonstrate, try that. Do that With the torch thing and show us

Hey !

I believe its not the cooler air making the extra power but the colder fuel, ive seen this test on motortrend as well

What about fuel temps does that have any effect on things is that something that should be worried about

So those spacers that raise up the injectors on a GM/Rochester TBI really should have an effect on power then?

Motorcycles have been doing that for years.

The further away from the port would mean more mixing betwern air and fuel. But doesnt that also mean less bang when the spark fires? I always thought the denser the fuel is going in the chamber the more bang and by extension power you are able to make. Anymore clarity on this?

Richard, I knew it. You're a Honda guy