Detailed breakdown of the cheats used by player "SAYU" as seen on Ludwig's stream and what Slippi is doing to prevent this sort of thing in the future.
Agreed; I have SO much respect for people who are capable of saying that, and I think that it's one of the most sorely lacking traits of people in general.
It's such a huge asset to so many pursuits being able to jump into an early version of your opinion, test it, and modify or abandon that opinion if it's clearly not holding up. Makes so many things in life much easier if you can quickly adapt your personal paradigm until it's in a place that holds up.
I totally respect it, especially since nowadays almost everyone is entitled af and don't ever want to admit they're wrong. Hell, literally yesterday someone said "BOTW Link has a hook shot in Ult", I corrected him, and instead of being like "Oh you're right my bad" he instead is "UHHH can someone mute him?" AND that's just one example. Like wtf people.
I mean, all you have to do is program randomness into the macro. First, program yourself doing the move a few dozen times. Then do statistical analysis of the button presses and timings, and apply that randomness to your macro timings. Catching someone cheating like this only works because the button inputs are TOO perfect. Make them imperfect and catching someone becomes much harder. They would have to do statistical analysis themselves to catch you (kinda like how the math people did with dreams minecraft speedruns.) It's still possible to cheat even with a keylogger, you just have to be a smarter programmer. (And of course this would never work if anybody else could SEE you physically playing the game.)
i mean it would take some time to learn how to play with macros, but even still this is a thing we need to nip in the bud before it gets to that point, otherwise this sort of thing might spread like wall hacks in counterstrike
The controller input viewer is the absolute killing blow that negates all possibilities that this is a box-styled controller since we get to see the joystick movement. Thanks for including it.
@@fernando47180 When it comes to movement controls, there are two types of inputs: Analog inputs - Seen in the Gamecube controller's joysticks and shoulder buttons. Having analog movement means that your controller allows you to move in a wide variety of ranges. You can perform from the slowest walks gradually to running. Digital inputs - Seen in the Gamecube controller's standard buttons. Pressing a button will move you in one direction. Think of it like the WASD movement system on a keyboard. While you have limited movement, you're able to comfortably do stuff such as pressing left and right in quick succession without putting too much strain on your hands. Since a box-styled controller uses only digital inputs, it is not possible for the player to perform analog actions (such as slowly moving from the origin to the corner of the joystick radius) made available via traditional joysticks. Prior to this video, people have argued that SAYU must've been a box player since they were able to SDI very efficiently; however, as the input viewer has shown, SAYU's joystick was moving in an analog fashion while occasionally teleporting from one place to another, which is not possible for both controllers.
@@donaldpetersen2382 Yes, but there are two things to point out in this clip that prove that wasn't the case for SAYU: 1. People argued that SAYU could SDI because they were using a box controller for movement. If SAYU is indeed doing that, this would mean that they're using analog and digital movements at the same time, which is physically impossible as achieving certain angles also requires the modifier keys to be pressed along with the movement buttons. Not to mention, SAYU moves the joystick before every SDI. 2. SAYU's c-stick is analog in the replay. You can see instances of the c-stick bouncing back into neutral position as well as some gradual movements in other instances, all of which are not possible with digital inputs.
This is super super interesting! It was really funny watching it happen to Ludwig live, especially when his non-Melee-playing chatters kept saying it couldn't be fake after it did SDI that would make even Wizzrobe jealous. Of course that is humanly possible, but to see such an otherwise poor player do these things consistently should at least call it into question, haha. Thanks for making such a clean explanation video!
I knew it man, there’s no one who would be good enough to hit all those power shields on his new boxx that’s going to play like that, if you’re good enough to powershield at that level you’re not going to play neutral by standing around waiting to powershield approaches, you’re still going to play like a reasonably brained person.
Although it was hilarious to watch everyone just auto agree it was a box player (with sdi which not even smashbox can input without a fucked up layout), it was really interesting to see the actual inputs and macros in your vid. cool stuff.
My first reaction was “since when can you deflect lazzzzers?!” And then I saw that abnormal analog motion... no friggen way is that humanly possible to be that FAST lol.
@@orcfeseda someone just came up with a method to hit 20hz on an NES d-pad with just hands consistently...it's called rolling. They position 1 finger on the d-pad and drumroll their fingers on the other hand on the bottom on the controller upwards into the finger on the d-pad which can switch which direction it's on whenever. Maybe a similar trick can be discovered for analog sticks?
Cool video! I'm glad there is already anti cheat measures using slp inputs. Also, I'd like to point out that some of the SDI that the cheater did aren't even possible on the B0XX and the Frame1. In one of the clips, it looks like the cheater did 1 SDI input on the first hit of Fox's up air and 3 SDI inputs on the second hit. The b0xx and frame1 actually limit your SDI to a max of 2 SDI inputs per hit. That said, keyboard isn't limited by this (which I use lol).
I mean cheating will still be possible, it will just have to be a lot smarter than this extremely stupid cheating. Like using macros with random frames built in with imperfect inputs.
Great video! Slippi has been amazing for melee, and I've been able to significantly improvement my enjoyment of the game as locals are not convenient where I live. Thanks for the technical breakdown
Also after the new slippi patch on april first, the lib melee menuhelper stopped working, so I reinstalled the GALE01r2.ini file and it would navigate through the menus, but crash when it gets to the character select screen. Has anyone else had this problem?
didnt need to review this to see lud was right lol... you can see the peach has literally NO NEUTRAL AT ALL LIKE BRAND NEW PLAYER yet powershields and sdi's insanely... that's just not how it works out as far as how players develop, not ever lol..
To be fair... if someone practices skills specifically they can learn them but lack neutral. Let a high level AI beat up on you and practice Powershields/SDI. You'll have no neutral but be good at those.
not in smash community at all but this was fun to watch. cheers for explaining it so succinctly. Going to subscribe cos it'd be really cool to see you do more of these; analysing games to determine a players legitimacy. cheers mate
Summary: Shots 1-5: Clearly missed. Shots 6-9: Missed due to recoil (bad spray control). Shots 10-11: Very close, but recoil and inaccuracy make these reasonable misses. Shot 12: Likely didn't actually fire because Ludwig was already dead.
I never played smash competitively and haven't touched it in over a year. This video was recommended to me and I didn't understand it at all, but I still watched the whole thing and enjoyed it. Nice vid!
It was obvious on stream as well to anyone with extensive Melee experience. The Peach player is an obvious beginner but with some perfect movement that can only be plausibly explained by the use of macros. Some people just refuse to "believe" that cheating exists; THE most common cheat fighter players use is by far macros. It's easy to implement, easy to use and will as easily be detected by any experienced player because it really stands out. A pro-player will do some of the "macro-user" things quite consistently but a macro player will NEVER fail and do it ALL the time which quickly becomes suspicious if they sorely lack in other much easier departments.
Would it be possible to explain a few of the already dumbed down explanations. It took me a while to work how who was cheating let alone what the cheats even meant or did or what benefit is being had. Found it really interesting but I felt like I missed a bunch of information.
Might be worth looking into a few technical details of melee that you might not be familiar with. For instance, do you know what Smash DI is and how it works? Do you know what power shielding is? Do you know how wave dashing works? I’m not trying to be condescending but it’s hard to help you without knowing what level of knowledge you have (I don’t want to waste both of our time explaining something you already understand). If the problem is that you aren’t familiar with some of the advanced tech of melee then there are already great sources on RU-vid explaining what these are and how they work. If you want help in this comment section, a good start would be to start by explaining what you DO understand so that others can pinpoint exactly what doesn’t track.
@@bradbucknerfl Peach can jump out of shield and then instantly double jump, which causes her to land on the ground. It incurs significantly less lag than wavedashing down
I feel like macros can be more advanced; if you add some jitter / fuzziness to them, I doubt you will be able to detect them. You could either design a system that cycles through a set of slightly different macros with different timings each time, or just had a random amount added in real time. Eg, button A pressed for 30 ms the first time you activate the macro, 32 ms next time, etc. You could also interpolate into the macro and out of it, so it looks more natural.
I know this comment is a bit old, but I'm fairly sure that kind of stuff would sadly be undetectable, yes. That's how players, even high level ones sometimes, aimbot for years in FPS games and don't get caught. I think there does reach a point where the cheat is helpful but subtle enough to where you can't realistically tell apart a cheated player from a legitimate one. I'm fairly sure this is precisely why some games like Valorant are controversially opting for extremely invasive anti-cheat methods and trying to stop cheats before they even happen.
I have no idea what most of these terms mean, but seeing that analog stick and trigger moving so fast and precisely is a dead giveaway. Perhaps the easiest counter is for the system to analyze the input log, counting the number of frame-perfect inputs and especially looking for input sequences that are exactly repeated or known to be macros.
1. I loved this video. Instant like. Well put together. 2. Once you open the door to altering the game, I believe it's challenging to argue things like this shouldn't be allowed. Using non-standard controllers purposefully provide an advantage. This, can be seen as a non-standard controller. So unfortunately if players are interested in using non-standard controllers, it will be very challenging to draw the line for what is fair and what isn't. 3. Full art MTG lands in the background? Classy.
If the replay hash/information for both players does not match up, how can the server tell who is lying? Couldn't both players conceivably lie also, with only one of them being flagged as lying? Or is there also something like a hidden spectator that sends the known value for information or a hash of this that the player info is compared against?
Somehow has perfect tech timings without any idle animation fidgeting. (repeatedly wavedashing off of platforms, foxtrot dancing, turnip play- that came out wrong.) Basically, you can't have hours of practiced timings either from gameplay or labbing and not have some sort of favorite form of fidgeting. Even slow ass characters like Bowser have Up-B onto ledge. Sayu has perfect tech timings without performing any tech; a borp wet dream. This could only mean one thing. *MASTERED ULTRA INSTINCT!*
I think it's evident that he actually was practicing, but most of that energy went into engaging the macro instead of actual tech skill. So say he keeps using the macro and eventually gets good at using it, learning to cover up the final frame of his macros and whatnot to prevent unwanted rolls. His reactions would then be trained to the macro and not the actual game mechanics. So I think this is actually practice that will make him worse at the game overall. If he had devoted his practice to that tech he was missing instead of relying on that crutch of a cheat, he probably would've been a lot better by now. It's a shame that he seems so short sighted.
The way you get the replays is basically just like the old doom games like you generate a file with all the inputs and can read them when you want / share these replay files easily ?
I Guess Slippi finally has a Peppi (Peppy) so you can tell when someone has “done a barrel roll” by pressing Z or R twice Player Execution Press Pad Index
