Mormon Reaction to Under the Banner of Heaven! 

Yeah interesting but strange thoughts

I mean they’re Mormon so…😂😂😂

@@ajhindalou quite right to me too

Sounds to me that you don't know much about Mormons... investigate the Mountain meadows massacre.... Murder is a well established pattern. Even Ted Buddy was a Mormon. Gary Ridgway was closely connected to mormons as was Israel Keyes... born a Mormon. Murder is part of the fundamentalist culture of Mormonism.

@@dirtdarte My comment literally says “as a non-Mormon” so I’d hope that implies I’m just a regular non Mormon person who is watching this show. My comment shared the impression the show gives to someone like me.

Mormonism is the world's most dangerous cult. Mormon doctrine teaches that men become gods and get a harem of celestial goddess wives. And that black people sinned in the pre-existent spirit world were cursed with black skin. And when I was a naive Mormon convert at BYU in the seventies, BYU students that were gay were given electro-genital shock therapy and vomit therapy to "cure" their homosexuality. I also learned sbout bloody Mormon history, such as the Mountain Meadows Massacre, where Mormons murdered over 100 men, women, and children. Thank God I escaped them. Mormonism is a big business empire rhat masqerades as a "church". Beware!

I’ve heard a number of my wife’s non Mormon friends (including a very devout catholic and a Muslim from Saudi Arabia) react the way you have, so I’m glad this sentiment isn’t just being attributed as Mormons giving knee jerk reactions. The intentions of this show are just so transparent.

Agree. I just finished watching the show and I can totally understand Allen character. Maybe this guys will find out more and more and opf course understand when all this character comes from by episode 5. But I can understand too that being living on the "cool" part of the mormons all their life can be hard to understand the whole picture.

I knew the nephew of Ron and Dan very well. He was one of my favorite people in the world. He was also a little nuts.

I left the church, but never had a conversation with church leaders about it. Does anyone know if this is true where they say keep it on a shelf?

@@bobbob679 in Mormonism they teach you to only ask questions that will reassure your faith not things that may question it. When I was in girls camp with the Mormon church whenever I’d say anything about there being grey in the world or me questioning the scriptures of being fable lessons and metaphors over actual stories, they seemed bothered by my free thought and made me feel small and wrong for questioning the religion.

@@CJ-qw4og exactly. It’s a cult all you Mormons and never Mormons. BYU grad here ✌️

Exactly! "Never question the church" is something I heard a lot. If it was negative... No way it was true lol

So sad for you

@@sb3065 Nephi believed in God and under Gods direction, he hacked off the head of a drunk man in a Jerusalem alley. (BOM story) This is the mindset of religious fanatics. The ends justify the means... The Lafferty brothers in their religious delusion believed they were ordered by personal revelation from God to "remove" people that presented obstacles to Gods "plan". This is not new in mormonism... it's literally doctrinal. Preaching the love and peace gospel and at the same time ignoring the actual track record of violence and coercion is simply not paying attention. Believing in something doesn't mean that what you believe in is actually real. Faced with that reality, being a good, kind, understanding, loving person has nothing whatsoever with God in his heaven. Obeying rules doesn't actually make you a good person... it makes you obedient. Understanding and living a moral life makes you moral. A moral God CANNOT at the same time command not to kill and then decide to order the killing of individuals or nations. Morality is not negotiable. If morality were negotiable, it would be a rule or a law.

This is an absolutely brilliant comment. Well done.

@@sb3065 the show does a good job between differentiating between overt religious violence(which was much more present in the beginning of the church and is represented by flashbacks and the murders in the show) opposed to covert violence which is more common and harder to spot(one moment this stuck out is when Andrew Garfield’s character wanted to postpone his daughters baptism and his wife pushes back because of the likely public ridicule.) Both types of ‘violence’ are rooted in faith, one is radical and fundamentalist, whereas the other isn’t but is harder to extinguish. If the laffertys weren’t taught or believed in the blood atonement, or even better, we’re genuine atheists, the murder wouldn’t happen. It’s very short sited to say when people have true faith they aren’t violent, the reality is some people are born violent and are placed with opportunity and motive which leads to violence which both can be bred in any organized religion. On the flip side some people are better natured and would be good people regardless of their faith.

@@jameskrenz175 you are very wise. I appreciate the open mindedness and accuracy in your comments.

It's too bad that Alan is also a made up character. If you haven't seen the episode with one of their jailers one of their main reasons for murdering her was that Ron blamed her for his divorce. I was young but I remember the news coverage of this case.

It's ironic that Allen is portrayed this way and even after the murders, he remains an active member of the Church. It hasn't done any interviews, which is understandable

@@porkchopproductions0314 Maybe he hasn't given any interviews because he is made up. ;-o

Allen Lafferty is not a "made up" character. Who do you think Brenda's husband was? You may mean that his portrayal is exaggerated.

@@dygz No I looked up the notes on the show and Allen is a made up character along with detective Pyre just to tell the story that the show creator wanted. In other words to have the ridiculous over the top conversations that shape the message they want to deliver. There was a murder but this show is being portrayed less and less like the real event and case and more like the imagined story of the author with little to no input by those who were involved like the Laufferty family or the actual detectives.

Exactly. Hitler had no religious motive promoting his sick minded ethnic cleansing massacre. Yet they LOVE TO BLAME RELIGION… 🙄😏

Yeah like God doesn't do this. Literally the Ten Commandments God gave us is Thou Shalt not Kill.

Yesssssss!

@@Servant_of_Yeshua96 How did that work out for Laban? If you think that commandment prevents people from killing in the name of god, you have not read your scriptures.

well said

Fortunately the violent murders aren’t (yet) fully shown and we’re assuming that most people who watch the trailer or read anything about the show understand that the murder is the (supposed) premise of the entire show. That’s why we subconsciously didn’t mention the murder but rather mentioned what you might not expect upon watching the show.

@@SaintsUnscripted Sure they weren’t fully shown but an adult corpse covered in blood is shown at the beginning of the first episode. Going by that logic though, what’s the need to mention the shower scene since neither actor was “fully” exposed? Overall, Americans and especially religious Americans seem to be desensitized to violence - especially since the culture seems fixated on sex and “offensive” language rather than violence which actually does immense damage particularly in the US compared to other industrialized nations.

A big issue with western culture and religion is how much stigma is around the human body and sexuality, but violence is rarely frowned upon. Bare breasts are not explicit in any way, yet they are sexualized. PG13 movies can have gore and head shots however. It's all asinine.

Not a Mormon, but I am a Catholic. Sexually explicit scenes can be scandalizing to those of us who are trying to live chaste lives and many of us don’t want to see that stuff. Gruesome murder scenes generally don’t make people want to go out and commit murder the way sexually explicit scenes make people think unchaste thoughts. Non-religious people are weird about not understanding that there are people out there who are not interested in seeing sexually explicit images.

@@dissident_mantis7 Rejecting basic human sexuality isn’t healthy. You also compared the _act_ of murder to sexual _thoughts._ You’re not comparing the same things. That’s a false analogy. Murder scenes may make homicidal people think of murder just like sexual scenes may make virgins think of sex. So what?

Amen. ;)

I think when they say the word “interested” this is exactly what they meant. You’ve clearly put enough thought into it to be considered “interested” in what goes on in the LDS faith. The show is made around that haha it’s not really a murder mystery. It’s a Mormon mystery

@@torinielson963 Yah, dude! I'm totally enthralled by this stuff. #1 target buyer for sure. But I think these wild stories about LDS history are interesting to a lot more people than my demographic, particularly when they're not whitewashed.

I use to go to Mormon then I thought you’re not the only true in the surface of the earth nobody mean nobody can talk God without Jesus so you can’t talk to God through Joseph Smith you need Jesus

Agreed. I converted in the mid 00s and it was almost always Heavenly Father and everyone calling each other Brother and Sister So and so then too. I’d have expected these people to be old enough to remember how common it was even just a little while ago. Tbh I’m surprised to hear it’s been changed so dramatically since I was an active member. It feels disingenuous to act like that was distant history or trying to make LDS people look bad.

Lol right

Maybe because that is what this is. Unscripted reactions.

@@brettmajeske3525 No professor sat them down in a class room, this is a RU-vid video. I’ve seen so much content that is unscripted and not awkward like this. Gold star ⭐️ for trying to defend them though.

I am freshly out as of November 2022 and I just wanna shake them and help them out.😂

I was Mormon in the 80s and remember it vividly. These young people doing this vid have noooooooo idea how different the doctrine and policies were back then. We referred to ourselves as Mormons and were proud of being separated from "the world" and we NEVER said "God", never! We only said Heavenly father, anything else was considered disrespect that would make an entire room gasp. Haha. And heaven forbid you say Jesus, without adding "Christ" as a surname, of even worse, pray in modern English instead of old English. Those are just some superficial things, I won't even go into the doctrinal changes. Good Lord, I'm so glad I only spent 28yr in that mind trap!

@@tam323 im glad you're out; my parents were converts. I was 6 yrs old when they decided to join and drug their four children along I could not protest at 6 🤷‍♀️🤣 I was in over 50+yrs.

@@KDawnn im glad you are out

@@GC2024_ I was born into it and didn't know any different until I became an adult and decided to actually study what it was that I was devoting my entire life and 10% of all my income too. A couple years of doing that and I could no longer in good conscience remain in such a church. I've been out for 20yr now and leaving was the best decision I ever made. I celebrate your release from it too!😊

You are implying Mormon women today are not treated like second class? Did I miss the part where they were allowed to join the priesthood, become bishops or mission presidents? Did I miss the part where the polygamy scriptures were removed and female missionaries could baptize their own converts?

Right. You can’t ignore history lol the church is super sexist.

@@annwood6812 I am in no way implying that women aren't second class in the church today. I am an ex-mormon and fierce intersectional feminist with a big mouth. 😀 I was simply making a direct reply to the hosts' questions on the video about the 1980s portrayal in the series.

Hi, which prophet spoke against treating womenfolk like dishrags? How did I miss that...?

@@cornichonsgrrrl Got it. I took it to mean, when you said UNTIL the prophet spoke out against it that somehow things suddenly improved.

It is still the main way in Latin America.

We still say “Heavenly Father” in my family

I grew up in Utah in the 90s and even then it was used a lot more. I personally don't find it that weird, probably because it's what I am used to, but I also think it helped foster the relationship I have with God where I do view him as a father.

I'm not of the Mormon faith and agree with you the same, but the origins of the faith, whether they are real or not don't matter in the end. Mormonism despite it's flaws is not a cult. Mormons have reject the trappings of their fundamentalist LDS cousin to have adapted with the time unlike other new age religions. Religion ain't perfect, but the people in it can be great like you said.

Judas who killed Jesus by his betrayal was a dark story too. The church of Christ will always have a Judas. But overall the church is a great influence more than not. You don't see LDS missionaries flying planes into buildings or relief society sisters robbing banks. The majority of their youth are honest and great trusted citizens. A Judas bad apple doesn't spoil the whole bunch. The movie is a false narrative of reality. The Bible itself proves Joseph Smith. Click RU-vid video titled " Book of Abraham part 9'" The Bibles timeline through math adds exactly to the church restoration in 1830. No man can dispute the science of this fact.

Agree

This was excatly my experience being raised in the church

@@cornichonsgrrrl My experience was far from negative. The kids were all happy and learned to have clean fun instead of the public school influences which were gutter language and a language cheapening process of sex and women. Women who married those missionaries became happy and most never divorced like those out of the church where anything goes.

great info ty

@@FelixFelicis968 Thank you! And thanks for taking the time to read it all 😅

Wow you did what I was too lazy to do. But also I'm watching this very late lol! Thank you!!! Alright I'm going to bed😅

@@anna-lisabiddle9508 No problem! I’m halfway through the book now and it has so many more details about the church history. It’s an incredible and fascinating story. Creepy and horrifying, but very fascinating.

Isaac Hale my hero! He was not somebody to be played. I had relatives who were in Ohio and some of them formed their own polygamous sects after the deaths of the Smith brothers. Others went to Nauvoo and onto Utah. I totally agree that the history is so interesting! I feel that most people don't know any kind of history; much less Mormon history

Exactly this. They also are purposely ignoring that the Lafferty's are LITERALLY a fundamentalist/fringe mormon fundie group. It's wild to see how active the apologetics are right now, seeing as this is the most accurate mormon lifestyle portrayal, especially for the time period, ever in hollywood.

This. 🔥

@@mikusheadphones But aren't the Lafferty's the minority within the LDS? You did say fundie/fringe. "They also are purposely ignoring that the Lafferty's are LITERALLY a fundamentalist/fringe mormon fundie group." You need to chill with your zealotry, as ironic as that is. At around the 21:00 mark they acknowledged that the Lafferty's were excommunicated before the murders happened.

Nope. If you grew up acting and talking like that, then no wonder you left the church. We weren't cringy like that. At least most of us weren't.

I'm a Baptist who grew up in Utah. I've went to school with countless Mormons and knew their families and played sports with all of them. I've honestly never seen one Mormon friend, nor acquaintance, nor even their parents act like what was portrayed in this stupid movie. This is obviously a hit peace done by very biased people trying to mischaracterize an entire religious population as being somehow cult like. If i wasn't raised in this area already I might have possibly fallen for it. They portray all of these people as acting and talking like the Amish or some far out religion in the hills. Its ridiculous! Mormons don't even talk like this in my school nor even in church. to myself they act like normal every day people. Why the effort to demonize an entire group of people because of a couple of freaks that you can find in any other religion anywhere today? it tries to make a fiction movie using extreme far out craziness that obviously doesn't fit any criteria of the church anyway? Are any of you really that stupid to fall for any of this?

So are you trying to say the religion had nothing to do with their actions?? Because they may have been kicked out for three months but they were indoctrinated in crazy religious beliefs for 40 years. That is like saying I quit smoking for three months after 40 years of 2 packs a day so the cancer couldn’t have been caused by smoking. Quit trying to make excuses and tell the truth about extremist cult religious beliefs.

I think that the Church tells us to pray and reach our own conclusions. You cannot say that the Church does not encourage this kind of thinking

@@dianethulin1700 I think it can easily be said that the Church does not encourage 'this kind' of thinking.

@@vfxtutswithdan1893 Or ANY kind of thinking. They do encourage this prepper mentality. Their history is littered with this fanaticism. I cannot agree they don’t encourage “this kind” of thinking. That kind of apologetic reasoning allows so many to gloss over the facts

They were kicked out when Dan said God told him to kill Brenda and their baby along with the bishop and stake president. The School of the Prophets rejected them and that's when they kicked them out. The murders happened afterwards

He could be fram south Africa as far as you would now!

White Jesus strikes again!

He lived in the area and the depiction of the show was nothing like how the church was. It’s really poorly researched

I would use him as one source but keep in mind he is an apologetic

I agree! So sad that people in general don’t know history. The Mormon Church has and still does hide so much of it. In a way it’s not their fault. They’ve been trained to be lazy learners

I'm a Baptist who grew up in Utah. I've went to school with countless Mormons and knew their families and played sports with all of them. I've honestly never seen one Mormon friend, nor acquaintance, nor even their parents act like what was portrayed in this stupid movie. This is obviously a hit peace done by very biased people trying to mischaracterize an entire religious population as being somehow cult like. If i wasn't raised in this area already I might have possibly fallen for it. They portray all of these people as acting and talking like the Amish or some far out religion in the hills. Its ridiculous! Mormons don't even talk like this in my school nor even in church. to myself they act like normal every day people. Why the effort to demonize an entire group of people because of a couple of freaks that you can find in any other religion anywhere today? it tries to make a fiction movie using extreme far out craziness that obviously doesn't fit any criteria of the church anyway? Are any of you really that stupid to fall for any of this?

You’re the only person I’ve come across that thinks that their representation of 1980s LDS culture and verbiage is accurate. I didn’t live in the 80s but I know many people who did. Additionally, you can say whatever you want about the Church teaching it’s history, but the Church is making an honest effort now with Saints. Love it or hate it, it discusses many controversial issues and lays it out in the open. I think anti-Mormons think they “know” the history when in reality they are just as polemic about telling the history of Mormonism in a negative light just as the Church has been polemic about telling the history of Mormonism in a positive light

@@williamg780 Good on you to be a true believer. Bad in you to dismiss what others are saying by labeling them Anti Mormons. And willfully not wanting to listen to facts. For example if you don’t think this was normal verbiage then I can’t take seriously much of what you say. If you think the church is doing their best to be honest about the past I’m interested in knowing why you think they would not be honest about it to begin with? I cannot trust a church that lies and says you can’t even question them. But sounds like it’s working for you; That’s excellent! It doesn’t make you entitled to your own facts. Members of The Church spoke this way. Just facts

@@dianethulin1700 saying you won’t take someone seriously if they don’t conform to a very narrow parameter you set up is quite a convenient excuse to not listen to that person. I wasn’t dismissing them. If I were, I wouldn’t have commented. And whether church members did or did not talk like that in the 80s isn’t really a matter of fact, but if lived memory and interpretation. But whether they did or did not talk like that is besides the more grievous point of the show getting much of the history wrong (good grief, they suggest Brigham Young killed Joseph Smith, a claim with no bearing in reality). Saints is written by numerous scholars-both literary and historical. I think I’d trust that more than some ex-member who left the church in his teens. I’m not discounting Black’s experiences, I’m just saying there are more credible people to listen to. [Edit: more credible people to listen to with regards to the study of church history]. With that said, yes the Church has been dishonest in the past. Sure, you can conveniently ignore the Church if you want. But that would be a willing ignorance by implicitly saying that because the Church was bad in the past, it is bad now-as if nothing has changed from the anti-intellectual time of Ezra Benson, Boyd Packer, and Mark Petersen. But the actual fact of the matter is, things have change. And the Church is far more honest than it has ever been before. But besides the Church, there are multiple, more credible sources to get information. Why do I need to have an antagonistic view of Church history to be critical of it? Is it possible at all, in your eyes, that faithful members can critically examine their own past?

The thing is, it happens in any faith that involves mysticism, it happens even with Buddhists in Japan, leading to one of the most horrible terrorist attacks of the last century, hiindus, Muslims, although the religions generally teach peace, it's human nature itself, a boiling cauldron of different things that happen in society and in families, and just like with Buddhism, it may happen even less frequently among mormons, but it happens.

@@edu.santos Of all the bad things that could come from the different faiths, I believe we add potential for even more bad when the belief is that we ourselves can be the all-mighty. (Isaiah 43:10)

While the basic aspects of their portrayal of Joseph is accurate, they are only showing a fraction of who he was. They are using a piece to represent the whole; only showing what fits their narrative. And, yes, I'd love for more content to be created by the Church or by members of the Church that talk about polygamy and the more controversial aspects of it (such as Joseph lying to Emma and telling everyone he wasn't practicing polygamy when he was). I think that (aside from missing what I just said) he is portrayed fairly accurately in Church-related media. One movie that came out recently that is the closest to this fair representation of Joseph was "Witnesses."

Not really, the truth is that nobody knows for real, just like jesus nobody really know him besides to an spiritual level

I'm a Baptist who grew up in Utah. I've went to school with countless Mormons and knew their families and played sports with all of them. I've honestly never seen one Mormon friend, nor acquaintance, nor even their parents act like what was portrayed in this stupid movie. This is obviously a hit peace done by very biased people trying to mischaracterize an entire religious population as being somehow cult like. If i wasn't raised in this area already I might have possibly fallen for it. They portray all of these people as acting and talking like the Amish or some far out religion in the hills. Its ridiculous! Mormons don't even talk like this in my school nor even in church. to myself they act like normal every day people. Why the effort to demonize an entire group of people because of a couple of freaks that you can find in any other religion anywhere today? it tries to make a fiction movie using extreme far out craziness that obviously doesn't fit any criteria of the church anyway? Are any of you really that stupid to fall for any of this?

@@richardclark2495 "what fits their narrative" Are you saying that Joseph Smith did not have relations with his step-daughters?

It’s funny that the show could not even get little things right. For example they say that Joseph had the first vision at 15 years old. Really?! You could ask any child in the church primary and they would know he was 14. They also say he went to pray because of his love for Emma. He didn’t even know Emma at that time! The show has very little accuracy and blows so many things out of proportion for simply the entertainment.

That’s what the church is known for though. Always playing damage control instead of just admiring the truth and learning from it…

Yeah, we refer to God as Heavenly Father, but that often, just like in this video is pointed out. Do we quote scriptures? same. Just when we talk to another LDS friend and/or in the church. It all depends on the context. Refering to others from the membresy as sister/brother is not exclusive in the church. It's the same in other Christian churches. No surprises here. About this "Mormon royalty" you talked about, not sure. I haven't met any "noble" from these lineages, although, just like in any group of people, you will always find "better positioned" people among the rest. In my experience it has little to do with lineage.

@@AlaskanMisfit487 no, it’s the secular media who is always jumping at the bit to slam the church. Whether it be LDS, catholic, Muslim etc. well not really Islam, they’ll kill you if you do so people bite their tounge on that one. I would love to see Hollywood focus on these scandals that happen to all manner of people and not just the typical, female or homosexual victim.

Oh please. Even us never-mos who have grown up in LDS communities know who are the families with power and influence. No surprise there.

100%. I grew up in Utah, was a teenager in the 80"s....this is 100% accurate. You guys are too young to know about the Spencer W.Kimball years....it was a different time! I was a member until the early 2000's....mission, temple marriage, etc.

It definitely has freak appeal. 💯

Lol, we DON'T say Heavenly father ALL the time. That's ridiculous. And we say God as often as Heavenly Father. 28 years been member so far.-

@@Kev_pencils If you have only been a member for 28 years of course you have not had this experience. We were forbidden from saying God for sure. What you are saying proves how The Church changes things around so thanks for that!

@@dianethulin1700 Agree, things change, off course. But I'm third gen in my family as member of the Church and..not even my parents or grandparents would use this name as often. I guess this was something more common in Utah.

A very good comment! I blame Brigham Young personally for some atrocities that occurred in my family. A couple of my ancestors; siblings had different experiences with him. One of them fled for her life under escort of the US Army. The other one is infamous and this is not the forum to discuss. But yes, it was reprehensible BY to blame. The past casts a long shadow

To be clear, it's a tv series, not a movie.

Sounds like you've bought into the lies and false narratives.

Agreed. I think another factor was how the church leaders were trying to shut down and interfere in the investigation, just to save face.

​@Kristy_not_kristine that false narrative is in your own history book

so sad

How can you be so certain?

@@neverletthemusicstop Because that’s the way it always is. In the LDS, “revelation” is nothing more than Public Relations, and religions that refuse to evolve always die. It’s a business, and they will do whatever it takes to keep the money rolling in.

@@dvdglassner Well it seems like you think the leaders are con-men doing it all for money, so yes of course you're not going to take any of the beliefs seriously. I guess we just disagree on that one

@@neverletthemusicstop Can you give me one reason to take their beliefs seriously? Just like I can be certain about my earlier claim, I can be equally certain that your beliefs were inherited from your parents, not chosen by you. Why should I believe stories that are obviously made up without any evidence to back them? I have studied all religions, including their specific claims and history. Everyone thinks their religion is the most correct. What is the single best reason to think the Book of Mormon is true? For a so-called "prophet," look at how much the Church has changed in just 150 years. "Revelation" has virtually always been to catch up with secular values, and NEVER predictive of social change. If Revelation were predictive, Blacks would have been equal in the church before the civil rights movement took place. Why is the Mormon god always playing catch-up?

@@dvdglassner You don't know me so how could you possibly know if I inherited my beliefs from my parents? I could have grown up as an atheist, you have no idea about me. You're already jumping to a conclusion, telling me you know before asking me a question. I think we both know nothing I say will change your mind.

Everybody lives in a bubble. Even you.

I was raised in the church and I was bullied by the adults and their children. I was too smart and questioning. While my mother encouraged this, the church leadership and members made sure to put me in my place. I also has the misfortune of developing early and being punished by the bishop and members for this. I was a CHILD. This is not an abnormal experience for girls and boys who don't comply with their definition of a good LDS.

@@cornichonsgrrrl this sounds horrible. How were you bullied?

@@vfxtutswithdan1893 I was called a whore by adults, because i developed early and their gross husbands stared at me. I was a child and was completely covered. Long sleeves and collar up to my neck. But, it shouldn't have mattered what I wore. The children of the more prominent families would say the worst things to me and humiliate me weekly. When the bishop was made aware, he did nothing. No matter what I wore at a church dance the bishop felt that because the boys looked at me it was appropriate to pull me aside and not allow me to participate in the fun circle dancing. I was doing nothing wrong or untoward. I was dancing the exact way the other kids were. It's just that my breasts were pornogrified by the men and the cultue. They still are to this day. I could have worn a full on nun's habit and it would have happened. This isn't unique to Mormanism. This is an unfortunate problem in all religions, especially the evangelical ones. Women, children and abuse survivors of all types are blamed for their abuse. They some how "tempted" predators and they are punished further, while the abusers are not blamed or prosecuted. There is a very high rate of child marriage in this country, often poor girls who become pregnant from rape are married off to their rapists. This is current in the US. It is often in evangelical traditions, I don't know of a case in the main stream LDS church. But bullying and othering girls for things out of their control is a tradition in religion. And the LDS church is not immune.

While I'm sure your Hindu friend has good intentions. Be careful letting people of other faiths pray over you. They are usually nice people. But the spirits behind other faiths are not.

@@catherinecooper8370 gross comment.

@@catherinecooper8370 Bruh LMFAO

@@catherinecooper8370 funny how you’re reenforcing the premise of the tv show. Fundamentalist religious practices brain wash the members. Thanks for proving that point.

@@catherinecooper8370 That’s kind of mean! I thought we didn’t look down on other faiths

Except that much of the history in Krakauer's book, both recent and not, is demonstrably faulty or contradicted by other sources. He's definitely putting his own personal spin on it.

@@vfxtutswithdan1893 I would be curious to see what other sources you claim have debunked him that aren't church biased. Krakauer responded to criticisms in the second publishing of the book. He owned up to minor, small errors that were pretty insignificant but I thought his response to criticism of church history was spot on. I grew up LDS, married in the temple and everything. When I left the church I was amazed at how much I didn't know. I didn't read his book until years later and I feel like he gave a great outsiders perspective based on the facts he gathered.

It very much gives me if Joseph smith was here today and you couldn’t use hundreds of years ago as an excuse how would the things he said make you feel vibes, with some true crime. I wish the main characters lines weren’t so corny. It would get the message across better if he weren’t so corny.

The thing is , I believe that theses fails because it is not only relegated to "patriarchy" or religion, they come from human nature, society, nurture, etc. and they are not worse in LDS families or in the Utah Region, even more, being from latin america and having lived in both the middle east and europe,I think that system is much better than what's become the norm in other places. Of course, it's far from perfect. Be it religion or secularism, whatever ideology an philosophical ideas, manipulative people will be there making things worse for everybody else. I had generally good expeirences with teh Church, so I think they're doing better, but of course, whoever had bad experiences with the church, leadership, will have a negative opinion.

@@edu.santos yes, naturally it’s all subjective. Some people will have good experiences and others will not, but experiences aside-the truth claims that the church makes are just simply not accurate and the misleading “truths” lead people to believe and behave in ways that are psychologically harmful to themselves and others. The nature of the beast is that religion will continue on as long as there are men around who claim to be God’s mouthpiece. Much like any system, it will continue to perpetuate itself and run itself by the people who are actually victims of it. This million dollar machine is run by the faithful devoted members and like any business, they’ll do whatever they can to keep the numbers high. I’m grateful for this show and the representation it brings. I really hope Mormons and others devoted to their faith can take a moment to really evaluate the core of their beliefs and consider the opportunity cost of their investment in the church. God and the church are not the same…of course the church would want you to think that’s the case, but the church is run by men. I simply choose to use my own wifi to connect to the source instead of getting inconsistent messages and “revelation” from men who claim to be the only ones connected to God. Truth is truth and God giveth to all men LIBERALLY…not conservatively and narrowly

Most of that is just like, your opinion, man.

@@vfxtutswithdan1893 what do you call an opinion backed with evidence and facts?

^^^This

It’s basically Mormon extremism. The average mainstream Mormon won’t quite understand.

It's an anti Mormon amplified exaggeration that loses the actual spirit of the reality that most church members live. See the real truth about the book of Abraham's translation that they hide from you. See "Book of Abraham part 15 " loaded 2 days ago. By me

No

@@chevonbayless798 Don't confuse me with any facts, my minds already made up huh?

I was the age of the detectives' daughters and I was living just 30 min away from the crime when it took place and part of a very devout LDS family. This is the most accurate depiction of LDS life in the '80s that I have ever seen. The Pyre family was a lot like my family. Unfortunately, it takes leaving the religion (I left in my 30s) to really understand how much it infantilizes its members and teaches them to rely on feelings as facts. I really feel for Jeb Pyre because I went through a similar unspooling when I learned more about the unvarnished history of my church and how much they whitewash it and counsel members not to believe proven historical facts. Just one example would be how you will never meet a believing Mormon that thinks that they or their church is racist, yet the church is full of teachings that claim that native Americans will become lighter-skinned when they convert to the church. They changed the text in the BoM to downplay this, but if they have an older BoM, they can look it up themselves. Just another thing to put on their shelf. I know this show would have made me uncomfortable as a member and I would have tried to do the very thing the people in this video are doing because if this show is accurate, they would have to question their faith and that is a terrifying prospect to a faithful LDS. Cognitive dissonance is an ugly feeling and bad feelings = the Adversary (the devil), and that is where the thinking stops. Sadly, thought-stopping is a classic behavioral conditioning technique utilized by high-commitment organizations like cults. Kind of like a believing Mormon dismissing everything an exmormon says or creates simply because we no longer believe. We are now tools of the adversary to lead the faithful into apostasy and nothing we say can be trusted. It is just another way to prevent believers from coming in contact with information that might cause them to doubt.

@@prettyinpain5 - I'll second what Lily said and I have a background that is virtually the same.

@@prettyinpain5 I'll third what Lily said. Aside from growing up in the 80s and being within close proximity of the murder, I can relate to all of this 110% with no deviation. This is exactly how it is.

If a movie needs one to read the book to understand context, then it was poorly made in the first place.

@@brettmajeske3525 says you I guess

@@terrestrial_mormon And almost every proffessional movie reviewer I have ever seen.

@@brettmajeske3525 you need to get out more. So do you think most people who watched the Harry Potter series ever read the books 🤔🤔🤔. Seriously dude, open your mind

@@terrestrial_mormon I am being serious, and if the Washington Post is to be believed over half of the people of the people who watched Harry Potter had never read the books first, and 2/3s of the people who watched Lord of the Rings never read the books. Both series of films were designed to be intelligible to audiences without needing to have read the books first. In today's culture most people are more likely to read the book after first having seen the movie, with is why it is so important that each media provides needed context. I loved the 1980s version of Dune when I first saw it, having already read the book multiple times first. Most other audiences disagreed. So much was cut that too much context was missing for most. Take a film studies class, this is basic film appreciation 101 here.

I can answer from my perspective, being a lifelong member but not having seen the show. Maybe I'm missing something regarding the French fries, for example. I think a lot of your questions have to do with revelation from prophets and how teachings/instructions/policies change over time. There are very important distinctions to be made when talking about how prophets function. They are indeed inspired and have authority like Moses. But that doesn't mean God gives them every detail of how to preside over the Church (God didn't do that for Moses either). They have to rely on the best they have, including all the direction given to them before, all the while seeking for God's instruction. But at times the revelation is very clear and God makes His will known in a very straightforward manner when it is right that He does so. This is at least partly because He wants growth in us, as our Father, and not just obedience. These are opportunities for growth and independence. Prophets give doctrine, they give commandments and instruction, and they also give policy. Doctrine doesn't change, although our understanding of it does expand over time (Isaiah 29). So God may give part of the picture at one time, with subsequent pieces later. He may also change our level of obligation to certain commandments over time. Like how Jesus said that Moses allowed for divorce because of the hardness of the hearts of the people, which Jesus later condemned. The Word of Wisdom, or the Lord's law of health, was originally optional but became a commandment at a later date. What gets difficult is when the Lord gives us part of the picture, and then people speculate, or even think they understand the picture more than they do. This has led to error among both leaders and regular members. And cultural factors have been problems throughout all time. Think of the idolatry of the Israelites' time that so often led them astray, their desire for kings, and the Greek, etc. Influences of the New Testament that had the Apostles constantly busy, trying to keep the truth in and the cultural influences out, where they conflicted. But the point is that, over thousands of years, the Lord has not yet revealed to His people all the answers outright or corrected all their incorrect thinking overnight. He tends to allow things to change gradually, with such things as bias, slavery, sense of superiority, and so forth. And policies change based on the present needs of the Church and the world. What might be appropriate at one time may need to be adjusted or even reversed at a later date. So doctrine on polygamy has never changed. That is that monogamy is always the rule but when and only when God commands an exception, polygamy may be enacted. It is helpful to remember that polygamy was approved of by God in certain, but not all, circumstances in the Old Testament. Multiple wives after this life is something we don't know much about, but the math alone makes it apparent that where it does exist in some capacity, it could only be the exception, not the rule. And covenants, which include marriage, can never be made or perpetuated if the people involved do not voluntarily enter into them. That would be impossible, being contrary to the nature of a covenant. I would also caution you to be careful of parodies or approximations of what Latter-day Saints actually do believe. These get a lot of screen time, but the truth takes effort to understand. Like if you want to know what is up with the Word of Wisdom, what the problem is with "hot drinks," and what is meant by that phrase, then I suggest studying up on it yourself, from the actual sources. It takes more work, but there's just no replacement for it. www.churchofjesuschrist.org

I was working on Hell on Wheels as a Mormon with Chris. I was known around set as The Swede Jr. It was pretty fun.

No

He wasn't an ex member, but he was an edgy athiest who thought all religon was bad

Welp… there it is…. The us versus them mentality….

@@andreamesser4580 the author's intent on the book was to show that deep down Mormonism is a religon that 'breeds dangerous men' (literally a quote) UTBOH made the assertion that Mormons (and other people who take their religon seriously) are the dangerous 'them'. According to UTBOH any one of us could crack at any moment, no matter how nice we may be now

Anti Mormon is a weird phrase tbh.

Here is the reference: ru-vid.com/video/%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BE-eoKGjHoH8lw.html

Not so often, and not out of context of church and close friends.

That’s my take also. This is based on a book written about true events. The facts don’t change because people born decades later had a different experience. I wish the people who posted this video had done some more preparation besides just watching the movie

@@dianethulin1700 Just because something is based on 'true events' doesn't make something accurate. Movies 'the Exorcist' and 'Texas Chain Saw Massacre' were based on 'true events', but exaggerated to the point they ended bearing little resemblance. When the main character and his family are entirely fictional, it introduces doubt about the accuracy.

@@brettmajeske3525 This is not a hack movie like Texas Chainsaw Massacre but thanks for the good laugh! The book and movie are an accurate depiction of these murders and the Mormon lifestyle. I’m sure it makes some people uncomfortable; maybe you, but that doesn’t make this movie invalid. It’s not The Texas Chainsaw Massacre of movies either 🙄- brother!

@@dianethulin1700 Perhaps I didn't explain my point. To my understanding the book was fairly accurate as far as the details of the case, but large parts of the book was more about the authors thesis that religion leads to violence than journalistic integrity. It confuses connection with causation. If the direct comparisons between the MMM and the Lauferty's were as cut a dried as the book suggests, then one would expect a much higher murder rate among LDS then the national average. This case got so much attention specifically because it was so unusual. The fact that th4e series felt the need to invent a fictional character does not inspire trust in its continued accuracy.

@@brettmajeske3525 I think we always as Mormons can never forget that it was regular church members who were capable of these atrocities. A big part of it was not allowing for church members to speak up or act outside of the group I feel that I need to be honest and disclose that I am a part of the Haight family. I am personally grateful to Isaac and the great care he gave his sister and my 6X GGrandmother after her husband died guarding the bodies of Joseph and Hyrum. I know what a stalwart he was. I have no doubt he was following Brigham Young. I want to shout out to Mormons WAKE UP!!!! Open your eyes! Let’s learn the truth and stop being so afraid of criticism. And I love The Church! So good in many ways! But people need to think for themselves. This should start with ending the prophet worship. Follow Jesus and do better. Members, ask for MORE! Thank you so much for your discourse 🙏

I second this.

Women are treated like brood mares

Yup.. agreed. This makes me incredibly sad

He didn’t do his homework… actually. His “homework” was biased resources and none of the characters interviews were actual or factual.

From what I understood, the gentleman who wrote the book on which the series is based is against religion in general

His cultural consultant was an exmormon if that gives you a better idea of how things were depicted the way they were.

@@ThomasFackrell That explains a lot

The whole story of the “Lamenites” (native Americans) was enough to turn me off once I was older and more mature.

17 million members, Thousands joined every year, May God bless you brother.

@@jeamstv5619 Those numbers are grossly exaggerated.

Why? Unless you think the Lafferty's only committed murder because they were excommunicated?

Unfortunately, active Mormons are taught to be suspicious of anything an exmormon says because they are taught that exmormons are agents of evil, out to get them and destroy their faith and that any criticism of their church, no matter how well-sourced, is of the adversary (satan). It's a classic thought-stopping technique used by high-commitment organizations and cults. Just keep that in mind when you try to talk to Mormons about anything you might have learned from 'apostate' sources.

@@brettmajeske3525 Until your an ExMormon, who left on purpose, it's hard to comprehend just how much information the church keeps from it's members. Or just outright lies. The husband of the victim isn't excommunicated. He's left on purpose. Same with some of the people creating the show.

@@brettmajeske3525 Ex Mormons know more about the Mormon church than current ones do.

@@Trish620 I have talked with many former members, none have ever shared any history I did not already know. What information is the Church hiding from members? And if it is hidden how do you know it?

I'm so glad you're here and glad you enjoyed the episode. Please feel free to DM me on Instagram or Facebook and I'd be glad to answer any questions you have ☺

Based on krakauer’s book by the same title. Definitely worth a read. Very compelling

No, the murders did join another off shoot after being excommunicated for LDS, and then were kicked out of that one as well. I believe at the time of the murders they had been excommunicated/told to leave by three different churches, which says something about their beliefs.

I think the Laffertys were going back into early Church doctrine and getting lost. Early church doctrine resembled fundamentalists, and the 80s reflected a greater degree of fundamentalism than the church does now. You just gotta go back in time to understand where they were coming from and combine that with a big dose of insanity.

Absolutely. There are many differences, not always apparent to those who are in the middle of things. But Mormons do tend to say 'Heavenly Father' more than 'God.'

That’s how most members are because they don’t want to face the reality of the teachings that the church has. It all stems from the se false teachings that create these extreme groups and people

yes bro, I feel you... I personally had a lot of questions but gradually geting answers, I remember whent the spotlight movie came out that must be felt harsh

@@HellMxge yep! I wasn’t raised Catholic I’m a convert and that movie had come out around the time I had decided to come into the church. It was earth shaking. Phenomenal film btw. Of course there was hurt and anger. The church leaders really let us down and worse destroyed the lives of so many families, especially the victims. How ever many people that left the church because of that scandal is because of those leaders and it’s something they will need to answer for should they meet god. For me, my conversation was too strong and I found the existence of Jesus, his teachings, and the church he founded to be too rock solid to just deny outright. I choose to follow faithfully knowing that the church itself is perfect but people in it are not. But yea that’s a stain we have that can’t be washed away

As with most questions the answer depends on the individual. Are there members who keep their questions on a shelf? Yes. Are there members who follow the scriptural advice to seek out answers to questions they do not understand? Yes as well.

Keep your questions on the shelf is real. Whenever I started to question our roots in polygamy, church leaders and friends would tell me to “doubt my doubts” and “put it on the shelf”. You can look up a Conference talk written by church leaders called “Doubt your Doubts” and read it for yourself if you’re curious.

@@shay5407 That is assuming "put it on the shelf" equals "doubt your doubts". There is not a single monolithic LDS culture. Some places were very much "shelf" culture. Other understood "doubt your doubts" as meaning to do the appropriate investigation and research. Many of those types contribute to Dialogue: Journal of Mormon Thought, FARMS, FAIR, Faith Matters, and other such groups. I find it interesting how many people assume that "doubt your doubts" means "put your doubts on a shelf", given the involvement of people like Dallin Oaks, Henry Eyring, Neil Maxwell and other leaders with the Dialogue: Journal of Mormon Thought. Those raised in conservative/rural communities assign an anti-intellectual slant to comments made by some leaders when often those very leaders are themselves intellectuals.