Jacob Hansen's Thinking Errors [Mormonism Live 187] 

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​@@ace00057 Amen to that. 👍

Which is terrifying. I see the same thing with the Evangelical Church.

Everybody has thinking errors. This Very show has a lot of thinking errors, and yes, I do mean that literally. To some degree you are right that he is a product of church teachings. But Everybody is a product of something. As the most part people today are not becoming a product of a religion in the traditional sense. this secular ‘religion’, is creating a whole new group of people. Social justice, warriors, equality and outcome advocates. Everybody’s a victim attitude. White supremacy. The pay gap. The list could go on and on… i’m just curious in 10 to 30 years what our society is going to look like? The big question is what philosophy and theology will create a better society? And which one will win out? I believe in the long run, the army that is being created today is going to have a much worse outcome in the long run.

​@@sammiller4321I agree that we all commit thinking errors. The problem I have with the church (in this case at least) is that it actively teaches us to commit thinking errors. for example, the church teaches us to accept feelings as knowledge. Unknowingly commiting a thinking error sucks, but actively teaching people to think poorly is far worse. As for your belief that the world will be worse in 20 years, I suppose you could be right, but frankly, I think it's too big a subject and not worth my time to speculate about at the moment.

Like your hate watching shows.

@@andreadiamond7115 ❤️

Keep keeping it real bro

@@chasewilkinson1977 thanks Chase

Cultch ! Great seeing your videos abd you getting mentions in the podcasts!! ❤❤❤🔥🔥🔥🔥

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The Vulcan neck pinch?!

I thought that the reason the Nephites couldn't hit Samuel the Lamanite was because they were Imperial Storm Troopers.

IIRC, during one of his appearances on Midnight Mormons, he repeatedly criticized a Mormon Stories video for asking for donations. But then at the end of the Midnight Mormons video, THEY asked for donations.

@@randyjordan5521 I 100% think content creators should make money. But you're right, when Exmormon content creators make money off their content, Jacob and the boys cry about it. But When ward radio begs for donations and literally flashes pictures of Cardon begging for donations from every possible source (Zelle, PayPal, Venmo) multiple times during their show it's totally fine. And then tonight, they literally paid bill and RFM about $20 in the live chat to try to get their comments read 🤣

@@Cultural_Hall TWENTY WHOLE DOLLARS???? Wow, where can I get in on some of that action??? If RFM can make 20 bucks doing this, it's no wonder he closed his law practice!

"Nephi complex" definitely is a term that can be used to describe the phenomenon you're referring to. Self righteousness, lack of self awareness, humble bragging about how God loves you more than everyone else around you, humble bragging about how much more valiant and close to God you are compared to your brothers, telling stories that make others around you seem weak, cowardly and lazy compared to you. To some extent, I think the Nephi character was Joseph Smith projecting his own thoughts and feelings...about himself...into the story. Nephi was supposedly the one speaking in first person giving the account...and he comes across as dishonest, arrogant, presumptuous and self-aggrandizing. I once told some missionaries that if I were reading the Book of Mormon as a work of serious literature, I would say that the account told by Nephi was not supposed to be taken at face value, with respect to the actual words of Nephi's story, but rather was supposed to ironically reveal that Nephi was an insufferably arrogant person who lacked self-awareness and told bizarrely exaggerated and embellished stories to feed his own ego and diminish the stature of everyone else around him. It was a character reveal. The missionaries were surprised at first, but one of them then actually said: "I can kind of see that now that you mention it."

Agree.

@@Pay-It_Forward this was one of the many things Jacob wanted to debate me on 🤣

@@Cultural_Hall *Maybe when I get time, I will pop a few aleve & watch the video. I got to this point & the logic fallacy intensity was way too painful to continue, lol.*

@@Pay-It_Forward totally get that 👊🏻🤣

@@Cultural_Hall *The LDS church demands that poor pay tithing. if they have problems paying a bill, they ask them to rely on relatives first. When the church does help, its often less than the tithing given to the church. Most assistance is community service, not $$$ from tithing. The only exceptions is when a rich tithe payer hits a temp bump in the road. It's about protecting the Golden Goose, not helping the poor. Temples are about increasing the number of Golden Geese!*

@@Cultural_Hall *Follow the profit, don't go astray.*

That's a wonderful one as well. I really, really enjoy so many of his zinger quotes that it's hard for me to even describe having a favorite.

Kolby, I've only seen excerpts from Law's diary entries from 1844, but those don't mention the Law-Emma situation. However, Law did discuss it at length in his 1887 interview: “Did Emma, the elect lady, come to your house and complain about Joseph?” “No. She never came to my house for that purpose. But I met her sometimes on the street and then she used to complain, especially because of the girls whom Joseph kept in the house, devoting his attention to them. You have overrated her, she was dishonest.” “What do you remember about Emma’s relations to the revelation on celestial marriage?” “Well, I told you that she used to complain to me about Joseph’s escapades whenever she met me on the street. She spoke repeatedly about that pretended revelation. She said once: “The revelation says I must submit or be destroyed. Well, I guess I have to submit.” On another day she said: “Joe and I have settled our troubles on the basis of equal rights.” * * * Emma was a full accomplice of Joseph’s crimes. She was a large, coarse woman, as deep a woman as there was, always full of schemes and smooth as oil. They were worthy of each other, she was not a particle better than he.” Law's diary entry for May 13 states: "I told him that if they wanted peace they could have it on the following conditions, That Joseph Smith would acknowledge publicly that he had taught and practised the doctrine of the plurality of wives, that he brought a revelation supporting the doctrine, and that he should own the whole system (revelation and all) to be from Hell; to acknowledge also that he had lately endeavored to seduce my wife, and had found her a virtuous woman, and that the persecution against me and my friends was unjust; if Smith and his followers will entirely cease from their abominations and fully undeceive the people as to those things, then I would agree to cease hostilities, otherwise we would publish all to the world." Joseph Smith, of course, propositioned and plural married the wives of several of his highest-ranking followers. So it's not surprising that he propositioned the reportedly beautiful Jane Law as well. The contemporaneous source which tells the most detail about the Joseph/Emma/William Law issue is Joseph H. Jackson's narrative, which he wrote just before Joseph Smith's death. Jackson's account explains this verbiage in D&C 132: "A commandment I give unto mine handmaid, Emma Smith, your wife, whom I have given unto you, that she stay herself and partake not of that which I commanded you to offer unto her;...And I command mine handmaid, Emma Smith, to abide and cleave unto my servant Joseph, and to none else." That implies that Emma had told Joseph that if he was allowed to take plural wives, she should be able to take a plural husband. So Joseph had "God" deny her demand. Jackson wrote: "Joe informed me, in conversation, that he had been endeavoring for some two months, to get Mrs. William Law for a spiritual wife. He said that he had used every argument in his power, to convince her of the correctness of his doctrine, but could not succeed. I then asked him how he dare preach such doctrines to virtuous and well meaning females, in the name of the Lord, and in relation to the particular course he was pursuing towards Mrs. Law, I remarked that it astonished me, to see him profess so great friendship for Law, while at the time he was endeavoring to destroy his happiness by the seduction of his wife. To this he replied, that Law was trying to seduce Emma, and he was determined to beat him. I then asked him if Emma know of his having so many spiritual wives; to which he replied that she did, and was knowing to every act of his life, and he believed she was the most virtuous woman on earth; and that she even would not be true to him if she could get a chance; but said he, "I watch her close and mean to, so long as I live." I then asked him if he could blame Law if he should seduce Emma. He seemed to think that Law would not do such a thing. I then reminded that he had just said that Law had tried to seduce Emma, in order to justify his own proceedings with Law's wife, but that now he contradicted himself by expressing so much confidence in Law. To get out of his dilemma, he said that the truth was, Emma wanted Law for a spiritual husband, and that she urged as a reason that as he had so many spiritual wives, she thought it but fair that she should at least have one man spiritually sealed up to her, and that she wanted Law, because he was such a "sweet little man." -- He then tried to persuade me to aid him in his purposes on Mrs. Law, and said that he would employ any stratagem, in order to accomplish his object, and went on to say, that he and Emma had both tried to persuade her of the correctness of the doctrine, but that she would not believe it to be of God. I told him that he must carry his plot himself, for I would have nothing to do with such things; but remarked, that if all parties were agreed, that he and Law had better swap wives. To which he replied that that was all Emma wanted." These Joseph Smith polygamy deniers, of course, call Jackson a liar and dismiss his entire account. However, rational thinkers recognize that it would have been impossible for Jackson to know all of those details about spiritual wifery, and write of people involved, and details about polygamy, DURING JOSEPH SMITH'S LIFETIME, if they were not true. Jackson was one of Smith's closest aides during the last 20 months of his life, and he was well aware of what was going on. When analyzing these events, let's keep in mind that if Joseph Smith had not been killed, all of this intrigue would have probably been revealed in Joseph's trial on charges of adultery and fornication which William Law had had him indicted for on May 23. If that trial had occurred, and Law had been able to parade some of Joseph's plural wives to the witness stand to testify to their relationships, these modern-day Joseph Smith polygamy deniers would have no argument.

@@randyjordan5521thank you for providing those additional sources and details!! I think, even though I got the source wrong when speaking off the cuff, the point still stands: if that verse in D&C 132 isn’t talking about this situation-what is it talking about? Or do you think that idea I stated needs further correction?

@@reddish22 No, I think you have sufficient for your needs. 🙂 Of course that's what the passage in Section 132 is referring to. The fact that it corroborates what William Clayton, William Law, and Joseph H. Jackson wrote about Smith's and Emma's marital conflicts makes that obvious. If you haven't read Jackson's entire memoir, I suggest you do. It's on the internet, titled "A Narrative of the Adventures and Experience of Joseph H. Jackson in Nauvoo." Also, as I've stated many times, the fact that that portion of D&C 132 is addressed to Emma Smith negates the idea that Brigham Young wrote it after Joseph's death. To believe the Joseph Smith polygamy deniers' premise, we have to believe that Brigham Young concocted that verbiage in 1852, eight years after Smith's death, and while Emma was still living in Nauvoo and had nothing to do with any branch of Mormonism at the time. Young would have no reason whatsoever to invent that whole fake storyline in order to "proof-text" polygamy. Not to mention the fact that the majority of Utah Mormons who were practicing polygamy in 1852 had learned it directly from Joseph or Hyrum in Nauvoo anyway.

@@randyjordan5521 excellent point on how that portion of D&C 132 has no real explanation in the polygamy deniers’ view. I haven’t read Jackson’s memoir yet, but I’ll add it to my list of things to review. Thanks!

@@reddish22 Kolby, the memoir of Erastus Snow also confirms the marital conflict between Joseph and Emma: "The Prophet Joseph Smith in the year 1841 [sic, 1843] made known the principle of the Celestial Order of Marriage to htm- me. He invited me out for a walk with him and told me that when He was translating the Scriptures that part of it w[h]ere one of the Old Prophets was deviding His property to His ofspring. AThen it was that the Lord revealed unto himA That the time had come now when the principle should be practiced. Joseph told me the Names of some of the wives or wom[e]n which had been sealed to him by Joseph B. Noble. That Emma His 1st wife was acquainted with Athese wom[elnA and had administered to him but she had turned against him now. That in the conversation the Prophet was pure and Noble. He [i.e., Erastus Snow] testified that He was perfectly acquainted with the Wives of the Prophet Joseph. The 1st ones Name was Luisa Demon [i.e., Louisa Beaman] who was a pure and virtuous woman all her life. "Emma believed that there could not be a Holy Alliance between the man and the woman unless the woman consented to it with all her heart. Emma used her womanly nature to teas[e] and annoy Joseph and went so far as to threaten Joseph that she would leave Him and cohabit with another man and the Lord forbade her in the Revelation. . . ." Snow's recollection is very similar to what Joseph H. Jackson wrote about the events in 1844.

Yeah, why didn't God just tell Adam to go out and bang a bunch of the prehistoric Paleoindians who lived in western Missouri all around the Garden of Eden, so those women could pregnant and raise up a pure Adamic race?

Great point. Plus, it’s proven that polygamy has fewer children that one man and one woman. Science and the Bible are a bitch.

Yeah, instead of talking about just Adam and Eve, we should be talking about Adam and Eve and Dawn and Sunset and Sundown, etc, etc.!

@@mylesmarkson1686 or maybe Adam and Steve and Eve and dawn etc etc. polyandry was a JS favorite as well. Although, Adam would have to send Steve on a mission then shag all the woman. My bad. Just Adam and the ladies.

@@mylesmarkson1686 Or in today's era of "wokeness," maybe we should talk about Adam and Steve.

Yes. And the big contradiction in the mindset of the deniers is that on one hand they want to continue thinking of Joseph Smith as a real prophet who was too virtuous, honest and pure to be the originator of something like D&C 132, while portraying him as the primary victim of a very large cabal of extremely vicious, duplicitous, murderous and adulterous schemers and plotters who surrounded him and were always in positions where they could sabotage his prophetic efforts. On the other hand, they don't want anyone to remind them that ALL of those evil men were in the positions they were in...thanks to Joseph Smith selecting them and placing them in those positions. His personal scribe, William Clayton...hand picked by JS and often a constant companion? Well, he was supposedly one of the plotters too, according to the deniers. All up and down the line. Even Hyrum's wife Mary Fielding ran off to Utah with Heber C. Kimball after becoming his plural wife in Nauvoo, raising Hyrum's son, Joseph F. Smith as Heber's stepson...with Heber supposedly being one of the chief conspirators and allies of Brigham.

Interesting

@@TEAM__POSEID0N Dittos, and furthermore, Joseph Smith placed most of those evil sinner adulterous murder plotters into his super-loyal "Council of Fifty" just a few weeks before his death. And Smith had the evil sinner adulterous murder plotter Brigham Young preside over the excommunication trial of the evil sinner anti-polygamous murder plotter William Law on April 15, 1844. According to these Joseph Smith polygamy deniers, there were more sinners, adulterers, and criminals among Joseph Smith's innermost circle than there were honest, righteous people. So what does that tell us about Joseph Smith's "prophethood" and the "one true restored church"?

I know you’re a Hansen “superfan.”

Same lol

@@amazinmaven the live chat was wild, maven. Jacob showed up and brought two ward radio friends, his brother, and Chris Hannah as back up. They kept buying super chats to get their comments seen. Bill and RFM made at least $20 off those guys.

Oh, I have plenty of criticisms of the New Testament as well--but we were discussing the Old Testament because we're responding to Jacob's arguments from the debate.

@@reddish22 That's fair!

We wrote to the local bishop and told him we wanted our names removed and we didn't want any contact or visits to discuss. We also said why in our letter eg being lied to, coerced out of time and money etc. It was a very satisfying letter to send.

@@debbieshrubb1222 thank you.

If you don’t want to deal with your bishop and/or stake president you can go to quitmormon.org. They are a group of lawyers that will send a letter for you directly to church headquarters. They do this for no charge, although you do have an opportunity to make a donation if you choose.

You have to write a signed letter to the Members Records Division of the LDS Church. If you have it notarized, the bishop doesn’t need to do anything. The church should sent you a confirmation letter in a couple of weeks. The address to mail it to is: 50 E North Temple, room 1372, SLC, UT 84150.

@@Wren402 Thank you

Say goodnight, Dick.

I praise Jacob for certain things and explain ways I agree with him at multiple points in the video. I also offered for him to correct me if I’ve mistaken his position (which would be difficult since we played quite a few of his clips to allow him to speak for himself). As for nitpicking? Why are you allergic to accuracy? I came here to correct a slight misstatement in something I said right after we finished this interview because accuracy matters to me. I don’t share your aversion to correction and do it to myself when I can. Jacob is more than welcome to reach out to me and I’d discuss any of his pushback on any word I said.

What's "borderline bad faith"? Are you trying to spin things...in borderline bad faith? And when someone publicly broadcasts a debate on a controversial topic...aren't they basically inviting people to engage in "nitpicking" (aka analysis and fact-checking)? But, yeah, let's pretend it's only about "Jacob being a little mean" and nothing else.

Hey dumbass, Hansen wrote to people's area authorities to try and get them excommunicated

@@LatterDayPup how are those mission papers coming, Latter-day Pup?

The title says why they are reacting to his clips. Not because he is mean.