In Ned's defence, he is looki g at the situation like this: Did he stab the mad king before he ruthlessly killed Ned's father? No. Did he stab him during or just after 'for justice'? No. Did he stab him as he prosecuted his war againt Robert and Ned? No. Did he leave King's landing or encourage his father to join Ned and Robert? No. ... Did he stab the mad king only when his father had entered the city and began ransacking it? Yes. From Ned's persepctive Jaime didnt betray the king out of any sense of honor or justice, but because at that very moment it served HIS family.
Absolutely, he even confessed to Tywin the mad king thought of summoning and then killing him like Ned's father. He was protecting his and his family's ass
@@agus_pax8796 as would any man in that position. Gives a new light to some of The quirks of Jamie. Lannisters were fucked from The beginning, but turned extra fucked after The events
It's crazy that it secretly hurt Jamie that the honorable Ned stark thought he was a traitor, and no matter how many times he tried to tell everyone that the mad king was in fact an insane homocidal king that wanted to burn his people, and since no one would listen he had to wear the king slayer title with pride
@@bryanfoster326no it bothered him. Jamie thought of himself above Ned. Lion over the wolf. But Ned looked down on him for being a kingslayer and not acting sooner.
@@bryanfoster326 he cared. He he implied it 8n the bath with brienne. And especially Ned, who he respected but hated, because rumor was Ned killed Arthur Dane. So Ned was not only noble but looked at as a master swordsman. At the end of the day it's simple psychology. Jamie craved respect and affection he never got from tywin, so he had noble idols he looked up to, and all of them despised him just like he felt tywin did. And the one noble selfless thing he did, caused him to be despised and ridiculed by everyone
The acting is phenomenal here. You can see Sean Bean sizing Jamie up literally and figuratively by the pause and looking down at hes feet and then back up.
That's not ''phenomenal'', that's acting 101. These actors ARE good for sure, but sizing someone up is not the hardest thing to act for professionals...
In a way John Snow, that is the most similar to Edd Stark, ends up doing a similar thing. The main difference is that he didn't personally benefit from it.
@@MrFrusciante86 didn't think of that. Yeah Jon is the Queenslayer and for the same crime too, burning the civilians. Except in his case it's the complete truth while in Jamie's case at best it was a part of the reason.
how ?????? he didn't do shit to the mad king and served him well until he knew for sure the mad king lost the war and that Robert and Ned won so he killed him by killing him he was just doing him and his family a favor by choosing the winning side but only after they made sure Robert and Ned actually won
@@lawv804Thanked him for what? We have the benefit of knowing Jamie actually meant all of this. But to Ned he just backstabbed the king exactly when his father sacked the city and ordered the killing and raping of children. They could’ve saved the murdered Starks, or even changed sides as soon as then, but they didn’t, because Tywin was waiting to see who’d win, and Jamie simply got caught up in that unintentionally
Ned's sense of honor is so overwhelming, he can't even appreciate the act of his father's and brother's murderer being killed, because Jamie swore an oath to defend the mad king. This is reiterated by his respect for Ser Barristan who didn't surrender until he was almost mortally wounded at the red fork. I love the complexity and consistency of George RR's characters.
It wasn't only because Jaime betrayed the mad king, it was also the fact that he didn't do it sooner, before his father and brother were killed. From Ned's perspective, Jaime only made justice when it was safe to do so
@@abrahamesteva5935 I doubt that was the factor here, don't think Ned was ''offended'' at Jamie for not doing it sooner. It wasn't Jamie's responsibility to protect Ned's father/brother
It's so overwhelming that at some point it becomes blind stubborness, naivete and righteousness. ''mad king'' was not someone who deserved a ''honorable'' death, whatever that it. That was rebellion, it's naive to expect people acting ''honorably''. Also, it's not his place to judge and lecture Jamie who (in his mind) did what he had to and now has to carry that burden, where's Ned's empathy? This scene wasn't really complex, just two people clashing over their opinions, each thinking he was right, each refusing to see another's point of view. Rather straightforward and simple.
Had Tywin not Ransacked King's landing... Ned doesn't view Jamie like this. Tywin only chose to act when it was obvious who the winner of the war was. As soon as Robert won at the Trident, Tywin marched on King's landing. Pretended to be their to assist the crown. Then Tywin sacked the city. Killed innocent people. Ordered Gregor Clegain to slaughter Elia Martell and the kids. Ned saw ALL of the aftermath of that. Lannister soldiers and a Lannister lord responsible for awful crimes. Then he sees Jamie sitting on the throne with blood on his sword. Having killed someone he swore an oath to protect. It wasn't about Jamie and what he did. It was about what Tywin did. Tywin committed acts so horrible that it stained the Lannister family name forever. Jamie was Tywins' son and was just as awful in the eyes of the public. Anything Jamie said after was just excuses in Ned's eyes
To that point Jamie probably doesn’t act without knowing his father’s on the doorstep. He acts the ‘hero’ when it’s safe. When the best of the king’s guard are gone. When Rhaegar’s dead so he knows he won’t be coming for him. Just like Tywin he doesn’t do the right thing until there’s almost zero risk for him.
I would be pissed to of he waited to stab the king in the back until AFTER he killed my brother and father. Plus let's be real, lannisters sided with Ned and Rob when they knew they would win
Except we and Ned probably knows that Jamie only betrayed him once the Mad King ordered Jamie to arrest Tywin. Sure, all the other atrocities helped to rationalize the decision in Jamie's mind, but the tipping point was when his family was at risk.
@K-11609 Jaime himself says that he advised against the Mad King's orders throughout the war, and that the order to burn the population of King's Landing alive was the final straw. Which I think is true.
Why did he not do it sooner, if it was for justice? that's what Ned would be thinking here. Of course, Jaime knows why he did it when he did, but he never told anyone else about the wildfire as it was happening, so obviously people aren't going to take his side.
@@edwardking9359and that’s why he is an idiot, he expected people to take his side just because, without any proper explanation, and it’s kinda unclear why he kept basically his only noble and good deed to himself. To save his reputation of a scumbag?
I kind of feel sorry for Jaime here. He so desperately wants Ned's approval and in all honesty, it wouldn't have been much for Ned to give it to him. Certainly it wouldn't have compromised his honour. If Ned and Jaime had settled their differences it would have made life a lot easier for both of them when Catelyn makes a citizens arrest on Tyrion. They certainly would have had dialogue rather than a sword fight.
Jamie was the true hero of Game of thrones without him there wouldn’t have been. a kingslanding or iron throne to conquer . saved millions of lives and was repaid by being shamed
I doubt it -- Ned Stark was known for his honor ; even by people who didn't directly know him -- He would have defended the king from the army attacking the city
Ned was a textbook example of lawful stupid in his old age. When he was younger, he bent the rules and his honor to protect Jon. In old age, he had only rules to cling to.
Jamie only gets hate for what he did because everyone else wished they were the ones to do it. Jamie acts in his own interests on the outside but has a noble heart. Ned's nobility is more textbook and even when you look at the situations where he does things "in the name of honor" hes really being selfish af or using it to avoid dealing with things himself. Ned was a great character but he's one of the more flawed people in that world.
Everyone says Jamie did it to save the citizens of Kings Landing, but isn't it just as likely he did it to save himself and his father? There are plenty of examples of Jamie doing stuff because it's in his families best interest, but are there any other examples of Jamie doing things for others that were not in his best interest?
That’s like if Jamie was Hitler’s guard. And he waited until like halfway through the holocaust and only when it would’ve affected him directly as well or his family. So Jamie did a good thing by stabbing the mad king in the back, but he doesn’t really get credit because he didn’t do it out of the goodness of his heart or because it was the right thing
Ned was an honorable man. But he didn't talk to Joffrey. Had he spoken to Joffrey, he could have proven his worth as a bargaining chip. Inside of killing Ned, it would have been better to put him on the wall
Why? Jamie didn't kill the Mad King before he killed Ned's father and brother. Nor during the war. No, it wasn't until his own father was present did Jamie kill the MK
This a very good scene. Jaime waited for decades to tell this to Ned, because Ned represented the society despise Jaime beared. It was his way to try to come terms to all those who would look at him proud and honorable above their shoulders, but Ned's response left him totally cold, you can see his facial expression, impressed and disappointed all the way. Because Ned sense of justice looks directly to man duty and integrity, through Kantians absolute of right and wrong, something Jaime would not get. Because he didnt read Kant clearly
Jamie is cynical because he lives with pain. He blames himself for having to kill his king and eventhought it was a right thing to do or a wrong move for a right reason for his entire life he was blamed for it eventhough everyone knew that mad king was going to kill everyone...but they still smirk ans blame jamie becaue he took an oath to protect his king no matter what. He was put between a rock and a hard place.
If Jamie hadn't been in love with the wrong woman, he'd be the greatest knight ever. I always saw this as Ned's folly. If a man ordered my family dead and I met his executioner, I'd shake his hand no matter how conduct attitude or beliefs. He slew a king and didn't claim a crown. Stark knew he wasn't malevolent, just rightly cocky. Ned was wrong here. Both in honor and loyalty. He wouldn't burn the works for Robert, neither would Jamie for anyone.
I was always on Jamie's side with this argument. He may have waited for the opportunity to be in his favor, but he still saved countless people even if waiting to kill the mad king caused many losses
When Aerys killed Rickard and Brandon Stark, who were House nobles, he was still King. The moment the King betrays the common people, he is no longer the King. Protector of the Realms is one of the titles of The King of the Seven Kingdoms, and more than the lands, the people *are* the realms. All these lords and knights and maesters would be helpless without the farmers, and the miners, and the smiths, and the porters, and the merchants, and the cooks, and the maids, and the sailors that provide them food, resources, money, and of course, bodies for their armies. And, to be frank, I'm a lot less sympathetic to Ned after he spent 15 years lying through his teeth to Jon and allowing his beloved wife to ostracize and neglect him. The honorable and honest Eddard Stark, He Who Chooses What Is Honorable or Honest. I'm projecting, but I believe if he had simply declared Jon as Lyanna's son and not bothered to declare the father, Robert's love for her would have tempered his hatred of the Targaryans, might have even offered Jon a position in the Kingsguard.
He promised his sister that he would protect Jon who was Heir to the throne which would have gotten Jon killed -- he protected him the best way possible
Ned is full of honour that even with the necessity of Jamie killing the Mad king he is furious and have negative view on Jamie's treachery. That's why he view oaths as ridiculous and stupid.
I don't think Ned cares that Jaime killed the mad king,i think he's basically saying "what took you so long?" Since Jaime could have done it before his dad and brother were brutally murdered and before Rhaegar ran off with Lyanna,maybe then this war wouldn't have happened...
Ned was wrong for how he acted towards Jaime. Jaime told him on several occasions and Ned saw was a man who killed the king. It didn’t matter what the king was doing
Such a weird dynamic because of what we knew after these seasons. Why would Ned be mad at Jamie for killing the king when he was a part of the kings guard? Obviously because killing the king when you have an oath like that is horrible. Ned was never an oath breaker but Jamie never told him why he did that. I don’t know how much that would have help his case with Ned but we all know that Ned was all about honor and no glory. Wish there was a scene when Jamie said all of the stuff he did in the bath scene.
Ned's honor got him killed and made him a sad man. Glad he died when he did, couldn't have stomached his honor-bound nonsense for another season. Devoid of logic as a character and this is the perfect scene to prove it.
Jaime was right to kill the Mad King, I wish he told Ned the true story about the Mad King crying out “burn them all”. I think Ned would’ve understood.
What would Ned have done if he was Jaime? Challenge the king to an honorable fight? In this instance his father was right " the lion dosen't care what the sheep say to each other."
I repeat this scene many times.. And this scene very funny..Jamie ask if he stab mad king in front instead from behind, would you admire me more?hahaha
Jaime did the moral thing by killing the Mad King, but morality and justice are not one in the same. It was treacherous and dishonorable for a man of the kingsguard to betray his king, regardless of morality. If that confuses you, then I'm afraid there's a lot about this series that you won't understand.
Was Ser Barristan Selmy included in that “500 men and it a silent as a crypt”? I assume so as, he was Kingsguard…but he may have been with Rhaegar or elsewhere. Can anybody confirm?
He was in the room yes. Ser barristan was no where near as honorable as they portrayed. Literally watched half the stark family get executed with good reason to stop each one. "He sold his soul to the targareyans"
this is the only thing I disagree with ned. aerys was a monster that needed to be disposed of at any cost. the honor of being a bodyguard literally flies out the window when the king you’re protecting is the worst person you’ve ever known. it was more honorable to set the realm free from such evil scumbag.
HBO can we please have Robert's Rebellion done after the End of Dunk and Egg's story (Summerhall), can it be animated even, doesnt have to be live action
Because the King's Guard is seen as a type of separate society - kind of like the Wall - they swear to guard the Wall and protect the 7 Kingdoms -- they give up everything even their name in the sense of inheritance -- King's Guard did the same - only their vow was to protect the King and the royal family - Neither had any claim to any family position --- only devoted to their vows And I can't believe that Robert kept Jaime on the King's Guard - but I'm sure Cercei had something to do with it -- or Tywin
Ok but understand needs disdain of Jaime. So when Aerys was abusing rhaella or murdering his dad and brother, Jaime was quiet. Soon as Tywin was in the city, then he acted. Jaime is the ultimate fraud in Ned’s mind
Ned was sworn to House Targaryan through Lyanna marrying Rhaeghar -- absolutely no honor in allowing Dany to be ordered murdered -- If Ned had said anything ; Robert would have known - and probably ordered him killed along with the other Starks
To Ned and everyone else, it looks like Jamie betrayed the very person he swore an oath to only because it looked like the King was going to lose. And because Jamie also chose not to actually justify himself, show the caches of wildfire as well as submit himself to imprisonment (or at the very least be exiled from the Kingsguard), he wouldn't be as harshly seen. But he practically got off scott free with only a mean nickname. Not only that but Jamie sure didn't protect Elia, Aegon or Rhaenys. So he also didn't protect the prince or princesses. Because he sat on that damned chair. He could have easily restrained the king, killed the pyromancer and gone to stop Gregor.
I hate how Jamie is such a target. It shows such a weak mindset of everyone. They all know why Jamie did it. Hell a rebellion had begun over this king and instead of sitting idoly by allowing the king to kill all of westeros, he took action and in that he's a traitor? It's a fine example of just how sheepish people can be.
The first season was excellent and had enormous potential, even though Jon Snow's character was poorly written from the start, and the same goes for Arya. Neither of those two characters had any place there. I won't even comment on the subsequent seasons, and the final season and ending were pure garbage.
Jamie is making it seem like he killed the Mad King out of Justice for what he did, when Ned sees/thinks he only did it because Tywins armies marched on Kings Landing. Ned doesn’t know the truth but he sure as hell isn’t going to trust a Lannister to tell him. His response makes perfect sense
Not really. Ned just doesn’t have the full story. He had no clue about the wildfire. From his perspective, Jaime killed the Mad King only when it was convenient and Jaime did little to make Ned think otherwise. Jaime could have told Ned from the get go why he did it. But instead Jaime’s pride got in the way like all Lannisters
Ned's most prominent trait is honour, and what he values most is honour. He'll always dislike Jaime because he was a sworn kings guard, and oath breaker.. it is a singular perspective because from Jaime's side of things he does actually try his best to keep his word in the books. He really had no choice though.
Thank you! Jeez, everyone here is expecting Ned to be a mind reader along with ignoring the fact Jamie was being an ass by using Neds dead family as a way to score brownie points
