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Joseph Smith the Seer 

Centre Place
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Joseph Smith, the founder of the Latter Day Saint movement (commonly called “Mormonism”), began his career as a teenage treasure seer. By peering with his spiritual eyes into a seer stone, Joseph led digging companies on quests to unearth buried treasure. The gifts he claimed evolved as he announced that a spirit had shown him where a book engraved on gold plates was buried. Using the same process of looking into the seer stones, Joseph dictated the words of what became known as the Book of Mormon. He also used the stones to channel what he claimed was direct revelation from God as he transitioned into the role of religious seer and prophet.
In this new lecture, John Hamer of Toronto Centre Place will cut through the mythic portrayal of Joseph Smith to try to understand him in his historical context. Given that literary criticism has shown the Book of Mormon is a 19th Century document and is not the ancient history Smith claimed, must it necessarily follow that both were conscious frauds? How is the text still understood as scripture in Community of Christ, the second largest denomination in the Latter Day Saint movement?
#lecture

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1 ноя 2021

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Комментарии : 222   
@kennethconnally4356
@kennethconnally4356 2 года назад
As a non-Mormon, I found this video really valuable. Usually the talk about Joseph Smith and the origins of LDS one encounters is either Mormon apologetics or anti-Mormon polemic. It's really enlightening to just have the facts honestly laid out and sensibly connected to Smith's cultural and historical context.
@Dick_Interritus
@Dick_Interritus 2 года назад
I was recently visted by some members of a church from MO that was not LDS and only believed in Joseph Smith's teachings from his time before they left MO. I never had heard of this group.
@rickraybourn7456
@rickraybourn7456 2 года назад
“. . .I prophesy in the name of the Lord God of Israel unless the United States redress the wrongs committed upon the Saints in the state of Missouri and punish the crimes committed by her officers that in a few years the government will be utterly overthrown and wasted, and there will not be so much as a potsherd left . . . ” (History of the Church, vol. 5, p. 394)
@adriennepatterson6113
@adriennepatterson6113 2 года назад
@@rickraybourn7456 the few may about to be up
@xp8969
@xp8969 6 месяцев назад
​@@adriennepatterson6113😂☠️😂
@xp8969
@xp8969 6 месяцев назад
Report​@@rickraybourn7456for spam
@benwoodrufffalconry
@benwoodrufffalconry 2 года назад
Absolutely wonderful presentation John!!!!! Always a treat to hear from you.
@rickraybourn7456
@rickraybourn7456 2 года назад
“. . .I prophesy in the name of the Lord God of Israel unless the United States redress the wrongs committed upon the Saints in the state of Missouri and punish the crimes committed by her officers that in a few years the government will be utterly overthrown and wasted, and there will not be so much as a potsherd left . . . ” (History of the Church, vol. 5, p. 394)
@ndallon
@ndallon 2 года назад
Always good to see that I am watching a video that Ben Woodruff approves of.
@xp8969
@xp8969 6 месяцев назад
Report​@@rickraybourn7456for spam
@dbarker7794
@dbarker7794 2 года назад
Thanks to Centre Place for sharing this lecture. The part about folk magic was especially interesting.
@rickraybourn7456
@rickraybourn7456 2 года назад
“. . .I prophesy in the name of the Lord God of Israel unless the United States redress the wrongs committed upon the Saints in the state of Missouri and punish the crimes committed by her officers that in a few years the government will be utterly overthrown and wasted, and there will not be so much as a potsherd left . . . ” (History of the Church, vol. 5, p. 394)
@icecreamladydriver1606
@icecreamladydriver1606 6 месяцев назад
​@@rickraybourn7456have you looked at the condition of our country lately? Worse is coming. He also prophesied the war between the states right down to where it began.
@xp8969
@xp8969 6 месяцев назад
😂@@icecreamladydriver1606that was easy
@chutspe
@chutspe 2 года назад
"Guiding a vision" sounds an awful lot like "evoking or plant the pictures in the mind of the biassed person who is totally expecting something like this vision to happen".
@jeanjulie4851
@jeanjulie4851 2 года назад
That and/or using plant or fungus derivatives to aid in experiencing such visions and beliefs. If someone were to say these things now, we immediately would assume he is either lying, tripping, or psychotic (not that the latter two options are bad!) I believe psychotic and tripping, if guided can actually help a person. We label these things as bad and, that they inherently are not reality. I think each can bring about different views of reality, at a deeper level. We judge psychosis to be bad and try, without success and to the experiencers’ detriment, to prevent these visions, perceptions, and to deny their beliefs. This repression and denial that the experiencer can be real, creates anxiety, shame, anger of not being heard and seen as a being worthy of respect, kindness, and even basic humanity, and a number of other feelings and defensiveness, distrust of others, etc, which are then viewed through the lease as part of their “illness”. Anyone treated like persons experiencing “psychosis” are treated would have the same distrust, defensiveness, and shame, unworthiness, etc. If we treated them, as well as persons experiencing phenomena under influence of certain plant medicines and fugual medicines, as persons to whom deserved listening and respect and the potential that they are valuable, perhaps we could learn from them, as people seem to have learned lessons from visionaries from antiquity.
@schiffelers3944
@schiffelers3944 2 года назад
Thank you John Hamer, and people behind the scene. Found it very interesting. Was a little late for the live version. "Hold to the rod" is related to the divining rod(s)? Not Lehi's Dream with the tree and fruit, and the rod, and narrow path etc.?
@rickraybourn7456
@rickraybourn7456 2 года назад
“. . .I prophesy in the name of the Lord God of Israel unless the United States redress the wrongs committed upon the Saints in the state of Missouri and punish the crimes committed by her officers that in a few years the government will be utterly overthrown and wasted, and there will not be so much as a potsherd left . . . ” (History of the Church, vol. 5, p. 394)
@schiffelers3944
@schiffelers3944 2 года назад
@@rickraybourn7456 Sorry I do not understand what you are trying to say. I understand you are quoting some book/scripture. But the message you are trying to convey onto me is lost unto me. Might want to try again?
@schiffelers3944
@schiffelers3944 2 года назад
@@burdinefox Well in the LDS church where I grew up in - the rod was iron, and represented the teaching of the church/word of god, the faith. So hold on to the rod meant hold to the teachings of the church/god, and keep your faith strong. Obey the commandments. You hold on to the rod while you walk a small and narrow path, through mist etc. ending at the tree of life - if you hold on to the rod. (In recap of the story of the dream of Lehi, book of Mormon.) But hearing in this video about Joseph Smith (Jr.) and his dowsing rods.... and how the book of Mormon came to be according to the RLDS.... It made me wonder if this might have been a different explanation of that story. Also the tree of life is also represented/present in other religions/faiths.
@neocount6397
@neocount6397 5 месяцев назад
​@schiffelers3944 those are apologetics from people who are trying to find meaning, without knowing the history or the source. Listening to Mormon lore made me realize most LDS know very little about the original Christianity or the beliefs held by the Joseph Smith and his contemporaries. I don't think anyone tried to lie to you, they just never did their own research on what they were being told. God bless you.
@schiffelers3944
@schiffelers3944 5 месяцев назад
@@neocount6397 I was not talking about their stuf on Christianity, to each their own, theirs are not what my believes are, there might be some overlaps. But different in the end. I was talking about LDS lores and myths, again nice to have different aspects from things with the same origin lore more or less. I was not accustomed with this branch/root story from RLDS. I like the other mythology story better, but that is me. Just how I could find some versions of fairytales better. Blessed be
@haze1123
@haze1123 2 года назад
Fascinating lecture. Thank you.
@TheMormonAtheist
@TheMormonAtheist 4 месяца назад
I really enjoy your videos. Thanks for the content.
@violetflowers1045
@violetflowers1045 Год назад
Thanks so much for sharing your knowledge :)
@notanemoprog
@notanemoprog Год назад
This was illuminating! Thank you
@iwenolongertrustliars9396
@iwenolongertrustliars9396 5 месяцев назад
Scroll up to my comment several above for an illuminating honest reality check. Notice how few may see this until shared among those hopefully deserving to know and do what's needed to fix things or at least survive! 🧐 🤔
@eldraque4556
@eldraque4556 2 года назад
I can get my round what your saying, done years of mediation, and had experiences of a nature you are describing, nice one
@eldraque4556
@eldraque4556 2 года назад
very good lecture series
@virginiaortega2415
@virginiaortega2415 Месяц назад
Hello from Lompoc California USA
@peterhook2258
@peterhook2258 10 месяцев назад
I specifically know two instances of a personality such as Joseph Smith producing similar works, building churches in the same manner today (one with actual plates). This is very interesting. Good work. It is my opinion that a modern prophet is going to come forth explaining the intricacies of how the divine works with mankind and specifically how a "prophet" and scripture come forth and qualify to be actually a divine work. In other words the whole "inspirational process" of the creating and making of scripture will be unveiled and "the arm of the Lord will be made bare". in front of all the nations. And consequently what is now considered a joke will end up having much more weight, undeniable weight. And encoded in the works accepted as scripture will be woven together over 100s if not 1000s of years patterns that can not be denied, and the hodgepodge together of many sacred works yielding these encoded patterns will be undeniably the hand of God.
@leopardred6594
@leopardred6594 2 года назад
I wish you guys make a lecture about the 7 day Adventist, what I think is not much mentioned but, it’s one of the movements whose said they preach the truth.
@l.ronhubbard5445
@l.ronhubbard5445 2 года назад
Everyone claims to preach the truth. They can't all be right
@thenowchurch6419
@thenowchurch6419 2 года назад
That would be appropriate since the SDA prophetess was also from the Burnt Over district as Smith Jr, and she seemingly stole quite a few ideas from him in guiding her own movement. Examples are a God team of three separate persons as opposed to a Trinity. In Smith's and her version only the Father is truly God. Her first vision seems like a slightly adapted copy of one of Smith's. Her Health principles are very close to Smith's Word of Wisdom, banning tobacco and coffee.
@reolabranch
@reolabranch 2 года назад
Thank You
@krissyshull4893
@krissyshull4893 Год назад
Thx for your lectures! I would recommend rather than saying Joseph Smith thought this or that to say Joseph Smith taught or said this or that. That way you're not making a judgment on whether he believed what he said. Our family is currently looking for community outside of the LDS faith. I love the thought that members of Community of Christ church look at scripture with a more educated/ critical lens! Thx for the thought!
@oldjoeseal
@oldjoeseal 4 месяца назад
I amazed that the presenter managed to keep a straight face during this lecture
@benjammin4840
@benjammin4840 2 года назад
Thanks John!
@peterhook2258
@peterhook2258 10 месяцев назад
You have to understand the difference between a "forgery" and pseudepigrapha is that the "seer" "prophet" or "apostle" writing the piece believes they are doing it under inspiration and may even believe they are channeling the work thru the original author whereas a forgery is knowingly create a piece of uninspired fiction to deceive people without the blessing of Divine or without the welfare of all in mind. The difference is in the purpose, intent and belief of the author. We also must remember that this process has been done all thru history. The OT, the NT and other prominent works such as the Zohar etc etc. We must not discount the idea that indeed God is involved in this process to elevate our spiritual growth while not crossing the line into verifiably objectively KNOWING its God. ie faith is the substance of things not seen..but true (not academic truth but spiritual truth)
@michaelabbott9080
@michaelabbott9080 2 года назад
Bizarre...is the only word that springs to mind here...
@rickraybourn7456
@rickraybourn7456 2 года назад
“. . .I prophesy in the name of the Lord God of Israel unless the United States redress the wrongs committed upon the Saints in the state of Missouri and punish the crimes committed by her officers that in a few years the government will be utterly overthrown and wasted, and there will not be so much as a potsherd left . . . ” (History of the Church, vol. 5, p. 394)
@michaelabbott9080
@michaelabbott9080 2 года назад
@@rickraybourn7456 .....and the world still waits...Maybe next year...LOL
@patricianoel7782
@patricianoel7782 2 года назад
Suggest everyone read “RoughStone Rolling “ by Richard Bushman and “No Man Knows My History “ by Fawn Brodie. Also, “Studies of the Book of Mormon” by BH Roberts. Very well do cumentred
@drashkeev
@drashkeev 2 года назад
So it sounds like seers are ordained in Utah LDS as well as Community of Christ. Does this mean that translating ancient documents is a common set of duties? Or is it more of a theoretical thing?
@TerribleTom113
@TerribleTom113 5 месяцев назад
Ex-Mormon here "Seer" is not really an "office" or "rank" in the church, except for the head Prophet, who is "Prophet, Seer, and Revalator." Seership us viewed as one of many different "spiritual gifts" that a person may have. Others include thing like great faith, the ability to preach the gospel well, the ability to heal through blessings, spirtual discernment etc. Seership is generally viewed as a generally theoretical thing, referring to seeing the spirit world (e.g. seeing dead ancestors in dreams for example) rather than a physical act like translating ancient documents, though, as the Joseph Smith story demonstrates, such outs clearly aren't out of the question within the belief system. This ability, translating ancient documents, is generally referred to under the spiritual gift of "the gift of tongues." Basically an affinity for and ability to learn languages effectively.
@tomgraves4841
@tomgraves4841 2 года назад
As a Linguist with a Ph.D. from SUNY at Buffalo, I have to point out that the "reformed Egyptian" looks nothing like demotic and more like a calque that a middle school kid would create based on the Latin alphabet. The only thing spiritual about it is that it arose from some overactive imaginations. I have my own religion based on Through the Looking Glass. It is certainly based in spiritual reality as much as anything Joseph Smith made up.
@longnamenocansayy
@longnamenocansayy Год назад
the tanners called it deformed english as opposed to reformed egyptian.
@richardholmes5676
@richardholmes5676 Год назад
Joseph Smith made up??
@xp8969
@xp8969 6 месяцев назад
😂​@@richardholmes5676obviously
@neocount6397
@neocount6397 5 месяцев назад
Ever try to write down a DMT trip, heroic dose meditation, near death experience, seizure/fever dream or any mystical experience? What do you think of John D's Enochian?
@adriennepatterson6113
@adriennepatterson6113 2 года назад
32:10. I think this is interesting. I believe there is another possibility. Perhaps he had this seer power and channeled not ancient history but futuristic art. 4-dimensional art, if you will. I think the Book of Ether is the most interesting book in the BoM. It is the last story, pretty much, and summarizes the themes of the BoM into a quick embedded prequel. If you didn't get it through the first 90% of the book, here it is again in a condensed version: God can appear to those he has faith in. If you show faith back, he can protect you. If you continue to keep his commandments, he can bless you. And if you don't, he will destroy you. The seer stones are discussed in Ether as well. And in D&C 130.
@davidlafleche1142
@davidlafleche1142 Год назад
Joseph Smith is burning in Hell.
@clurkroberts2650
@clurkroberts2650 2 года назад
Complicated character… good one….
@brandonlyon8632
@brandonlyon8632 Год назад
Difficult topic, you're a stronger man than me to take it on.
@albertjenkin1146
@albertjenkin1146 2 года назад
*8`I was told by Mormon friends that the plates were taken up to Heaven by an angel. I've read the Book and I remain a Unitarian
@scottvance74
@scottvance74 2 года назад
The story about it being taken up to heaven was one of two possibilities in the 1800s, and actually not the dominant account until the 1900s. In the 1800s, most mormons believed that the plates were taken back into the hill and placed in a cave of sorts.
@moorek1967
@moorek1967 2 года назад
Then they lied to you because Mormons believe they were buried in Hill Cumorah. Mormonism is as fake as Islam. Why do you people even give them any credence?
@briannatarelli430
@briannatarelli430 2 года назад
@@moorek1967 it is amazing that a story this fake can turn into the religion that it has become today
@moorek1967
@moorek1967 2 года назад
@@briannatarelli430 I know that's right.
@eudyptes5046
@eudyptes5046 2 года назад
@@moorek1967 Every religion is fake.
@suelingsusu1339
@suelingsusu1339 2 года назад
🙏🙏🙏🙏👌👌👌👌👌
@patricianoel7782
@patricianoel7782 2 года назад
Doesn’t the Community of Christ, your religion, believe in this Book of Mormon?
@nathanaronsohn8665
@nathanaronsohn8665 4 месяца назад
Yes and no, they believe it’s scripture but they don’t believe that it’s historical, so basically they believe it’s made up but inspired writings sort of like an allegorical account or something 😅
@CarsonPowers
@CarsonPowers 2 года назад
♫ ♬ dum dum dum dum dum ♬ ♩
@Menaceblue3
@Menaceblue3 2 года назад
🎶Joseph Smith was a prophet!🎵 🎵Dum dum dum dum dum!🎶 🎶Many people believed in Joseph!🎵 🎵Dum dum dum dum dum!🎶
@litebkt
@litebkt 2 года назад
Smart, smart, smart,smart
@xp8969
@xp8969 6 месяцев назад
​@@litebkt😂☠️😂☠️😂☠️😂☠️😂☠️😂
@davidcrenshawphysicaltherapy
@davidcrenshawphysicaltherapy 2 дня назад
Baha’i writings also interpret scripture in spiritual rather than literal ways. “We testify that when He came into the world, He shed the splendor of His glory upon all created things. Through Him the leper recovered from the leprosy of perversity and ignorance. Through Him, the unchaste and wayward were healed. Through His power, born of Almighty God, the eyes of the blind were opened, and the soul of the sinner sanctified. Leprosy may be interpreted as any veil that interveneth between man and the recognition of the Lord, his God. Whoso alloweth himself to be shut out from Him is indeed a leper, who shall not be remembered in the Kingdom of God, the Mighty, the All-Praised. We bear witness that through the power of the Word of God every leper was cleansed, every sickness was healed, every human infirmity was banished. He it is Who purified the world. Blessed is the man who, with a face beaming with light, hath turned towards Him.” -Baha’u’llah
@rickraybourn7456
@rickraybourn7456 2 года назад
Joseph Smith: “. . .I prophesy in the name of the Lord God of Israel unless the United States redress the wrongs committed upon the Saints in the state of Missouri and punish the crimes committed by her officers that in a few years the government will be utterly overthrown and wasted, and there will not be so much as a potsherd left . . . ” (History of the Church, vol. 5, p. 394)
@patricianoel7782
@patricianoel7782 2 года назад
So fascinating to also read “ RoughStone Rolling “ by Richard Bushman and “No Man Knows My History “by Fawn Brodie…also “Studies of the Book of Mormon “ by BH Roberts. All well documented. 2 of them authored by Mormons but authentic in every way.
@420JRMan
@420JRMan Год назад
Likely, God's mistold; "Telephone", game. Same's tough for us.
@leosavoy69
@leosavoy69 Год назад
That is not one of the seer stones
@st.christopher1155
@st.christopher1155 2 года назад
“Joseph Smith the delusional religious lunatic” is a much more appropriate heading.
@timothymulholland7905
@timothymulholland7905 11 месяцев назад
The Hebrews had their founding myth, as did the early Christians in the Mediterranean region. Smith wrote the necessary addendum for North America which the Bible did not mention and was populated by peoples of unknown origin and colonized by European Christians. Rather than direct inspiration as the prophets of old, Smith had a “modern” technique at his disposal, seer stones. These enabled him to produce an amazing book to complement the Bible for America. Like the Biblical authors, he got a lot of his facts wrong, but he founded a authentically American continuation for Christianity. His ambitions got him killed and immortalized, just like who?
@EASTSIDERIDER707
@EASTSIDERIDER707 2 года назад
All Harry Potter to me.
@judithrochin256
@judithrochin256 2 года назад
Smith was a con man . I think the movement grew because the men wanted multiple wives.
@briannatarelli430
@briannatarelli430 2 года назад
heavenly father and Jesus Christ in all of their wisdom chose Joseph Smith to restore the true religion to the world and Smith used his new power to chase women and wealth. Growing up Mormon it is unbelievable how many highly intelligent people believe and devout their entire lives to this obvious lie
@patokev3691
@patokev3691 6 месяцев назад
Create their own narcissistic, misogynistic self-serving code.
@richardholmes5676
@richardholmes5676 Год назад
Have you ever considered a video on the reality of Paul Gregersen debunking the Egyptologists? Gregersen proved Joseph Smith right, the Egyptologists were wrong. Have you considered a video on this?
@dianeprovost7224
@dianeprovost7224 5 месяцев назад
Isaiah: 66; verse(s) 1, 2, 3. The L-rd said: The heaven(s) is/are my Throne. The earth is my foot-stool. I, Diane Provost, believe it is so - because as you can see, it says so in the: Bible, the B, i, b, l, e; Torah, Pentatuesh, Deuterocanonical, Psalms, Proverbs, T'nach, "The Prophet(s)".
@davidabner8885
@davidabner8885 2 года назад
I wish John Hamer had a TikTok account, some cool theological discussions happening there and he could reach a unique audience
@heressomestuffifound
@heressomestuffifound 2 года назад
TikTok is so short in duration though… I can’t imagine an hour long lecture on there.
@nikecatania95
@nikecatania95 2 года назад
@@4gegtyreeyuyeddffvyt Tik Tok is shit!
@venenareligioest410
@venenareligioest410 Год назад
"In every man sleeps a prophet, and when he wakes there is a little more evil in the world." - Emile M. Cioran
@crisantocabrerajr.3508
@crisantocabrerajr.3508 Год назад
Moroni received the plates from his father Mormon who then wrote a challenge to future generation before he buried it in 421A.D. THE PROMISE IS THOSE WHO WILL READ IT AND PONDER IT AND REMEMBER THE LORD HATH BEEN FROM THE TIME OF ADAM DOWN TO THE TIME THAT YE SHALL RECEIVE THESE THINGS AND PRAY ABOUT IT...
@StanKindly
@StanKindly 2 года назад
I don't know about the "Y" shaped Divining Rod (and finding buried treasure etc..). But, make two "L" shaped rods out of coat hangers, hold the small 2" (or so) parts loosely in each hand - with the longer part (say 10" or so) straight out and parallel (maybe 4" space between), and walk around your yard or anywhere you know there is water or plumbing underground. They cross when you pass over water - and I actually had a repelling action going on when we shut the water off with the pipes empty 🤔 💧💧
@arobson1942
@arobson1942 2 года назад
Plumbers use this coat hanger trick all the time to locate pipes, like those laid under a concrete floor. Nothing magical about it. Running water magnetizes the pipes and the metal coat hangers respond.
@curbroadshow
@curbroadshow 2 года назад
@@arobson1942 but..but…but..it’s magic, it must come from god 😆
@StanKindly
@StanKindly 2 года назад
@@arobson1942 It works on PVC and they repel when the pipes are empty. I'm not saying it's magic, it's just my experience - and the guy who showed it to me.
@masstv9052
@masstv9052 7 месяцев назад
​@@StanKindlySimilar to oija boards. When u know where the pipes are, your hands are more predisposed to unconsciously move the hangers....... Like when hands are predisposed to unconsciously move the disk over the board.
@panzergarden1232
@panzergarden1232 2 года назад
I really enjoy the book of mormon.better than the bible.
@rickraybourn7456
@rickraybourn7456 2 года назад
“. . .I prophesy in the name of the Lord God of Israel unless the United States redress the wrongs committed upon the Saints in the state of Missouri and punish the crimes committed by her officers that in a few years the government will be utterly overthrown and wasted, and there will not be so much as a potsherd left . . . ” (History of the Church, vol. 5, p. 394)
@patokev3691
@patokev3691 6 месяцев назад
Haha do you have a screw loose? 😅
@NickEdgington
@NickEdgington 2 года назад
I am impressed how every generation reframes their view of the bible to a line with currently accepted views. You too made the statement that "we now understand" words echo those before you.
@moorek1967
@moorek1967 2 года назад
Nothing in Mormonism is from the the Bible. Read the Bible and then you will figure some things out. No, Joseph Smith was NOT a prophet just like Mohammad was NOT a prophet. Both men were the same, cult leaders who wanted fame and adoration by creating their own scriptures and passing them off as Biblical. Did you know this "Book of Abraham" was actually the Egyptian Book of the Dead scrolls that con men used to sell with the mummies? Yes, the friends of Joseph Smith bought a mummy and some scrolls, then after seeing them, Joseph Smith came up with the idea to call the language Reformed Egyptian. He didn't know we already had the Rosetta Stone and the language of Egypt was not Egyptian, it was Demotic. Literally thousands and thousands of those scrolls have been found and all in burial chambers and sarcophagi. Nothing Biblical, just a bunch of perverted men who wanted young girls to rape, oops, "marry".
@NickEdgington
@NickEdgington 2 года назад
@@moorek1967 Mormon Muslims and Scientologists all tell me to read their book all say they have the truth if only I would believe. Now you tell me to read your book and believe, ignoring the others. How do I know which book to check out of the library?
@moorek1967
@moorek1967 2 года назад
@@NickEdgington I did not say to read the Bible to believe it, I said read it to see none of those are Biblical. It seems you would like to believe everything but the Bible, but I am not saying to. You can believe it or not believe it. This excuse was a poor one.
@NickEdgington
@NickEdgington 2 года назад
@@moorek1967 I have no doubt that the book of Mormon and the rest are not the bible, The itself bible comes for earlier works. Most holy books borrow from what came before, Much of the Koran come from the old testament, the bible has root in the story of Gilgermesh. Each takes what comes before and changes it to suit the own intrests.
@moorek1967
@moorek1967 2 года назад
@@NickEdgington Actually, if you had read the Bible, you would know the ancient Jews who wrote it didn't borrow it, they came from a common source. Why are they called Hebrews and how can we rely on the veracity? Read some history also. What does the Bible actually teach? Do you know?
@josepheridu3322
@josepheridu3322 Год назад
I've had inner life changing moments... "Peace beyond all understanding" as Jesus called it. I do consider those things miracles. I've felt so close to God, but only to a few seconds :( yet enough to be life changing.
@sandrageter5221
@sandrageter5221 Год назад
Yes, chocolate cake has that effect. 🍰 🙏
@josepheridu3322
@josepheridu3322 Год назад
@@sandrageter5221 I'd say it is like 200x that, but hey, maybe it is close enough for you.
@xp8969
@xp8969 6 месяцев назад
​@@josepheridu3322is correct, m3th is at least 200 times more powerful than chocolate
@anitacoleman7488
@anitacoleman7488 2 года назад
A true example of how Mormons "appreciate" the Bible (using the KJV): and do not know how to read the context: For though there be that are called gods, whether in heaven or in earth, (as there be gods man, and lords many,) BUT TO US there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him. (KJV- 1 Corinthians 8:5-6)
@richardholmes5676
@richardholmes5676 Год назад
The LDS know the bible better than the Christians.
@JamesW225
@JamesW225 8 месяцев назад
If he was truly a seer , he wouldnt have been so wrong
@ottomann7042
@ottomann7042 2 года назад
Uh... uh... uh...
@tonyjohnson8752
@tonyjohnson8752 2 года назад
Joseph Smith the rainmaking con artist. There I fixed it for you.
@benwalsh9963
@benwalsh9963 2 года назад
The book of mormon states that a person can be saved by reading the contents therein contained. What is this guy talking about
@SploinkyDH.
@SploinkyDH. 2 года назад
What are you talking about?
@gowdsake7103
@gowdsake7103 2 года назад
Roughly translated Joseph Smith the con man
@briannatarelli430
@briannatarelli430 2 года назад
no wonder why an angry mob assassinated him, Joseph Smith was so full of shit that the towns people couldn't take it anymore
@botmfedr1m291
@botmfedr1m291 Год назад
Should be called “ Joseph Smith The Con Man” That’s a more appropriate title.
@-o-light8863
@-o-light8863 2 года назад
Bizarre people need bizarre leaders to fallow.
@paulorishi8633
@paulorishi8633 Год назад
It's MESMERISM, not "mesmorism". And its not a pseudo-science.
@deathwrenchcustom
@deathwrenchcustom 2 года назад
Joseph Smith is exactly as credible as any other prophet. No more, no less.
@timothyryan6018
@timothyryan6018 2 года назад
IMHO Joseph Smith was a huckster/grifter ..
@rogerthornton8064
@rogerthornton8064 2 года назад
As a historian you seem to play very loose with the croniology of what happened and when. And just because you have never had a physical, spiritual experience, doesn't mean others have not. Didn't the new testament apostles thrust their hands into Christ's side? Or do you think that was a vision as well. You seem to quickly twist the words of the witnesses to mean what you want them to, rather than the words that they signed there names to. I do appreciate your presentation and study. You seem to give the most level and balanced description of this history i have seen. But you seem to put your beliefs in higher regard than what the people themselves believed.
@thenowchurch6419
@thenowchurch6419 2 года назад
You need to set aside your true believer mode for a while in order to have a more objective view of what happened. The witnesses gave different accounts at different times, which at points contradict each other and themselves.
@grantbeck9228
@grantbeck9228 2 года назад
They didn’t sign their names to anything. Oliver Cowdery signed the names of the 8 “witnesses” and they didn’t see anything with their human eyes. It’s all a post hoc fabrication to lend credibility to the legitimacy of the Book of Mormon
@rickraybourn7456
@rickraybourn7456 2 года назад
“. . .I prophesy in the name of the Lord God of Israel unless the United States redress the wrongs committed upon the Saints in the state of Missouri and punish the crimes committed by her officers that in a few years the government will be utterly overthrown and wasted, and there will not be so much as a potsherd left . . . ” (History of the Church, vol. 5, p. 394)
@helenr4300
@helenr4300 2 года назад
, actually in the Bible no apostle put their hand in Jesus's side. Thomas stated that until he saw for himself he would not believe, when Jesus appeared he gave the invitation to touch his wounds but no one does.
@jeffreyelliottcruz8095
@jeffreyelliottcruz8095 3 месяца назад
THE PROPHET JOSEPH WAS A NOTABLE SEER AND PROPHET. NO ONE COMES CLOSE TO HIM IN THE IMMENSE EXPANSION OF RELIGIOUS INSIGHTS , PRECEPTS AND INSIGHTS
@kidslovesatan34
@kidslovesatan34 2 месяца назад
He was a third rate con man and practitioner of tawdry magic.
@Dethfeast
@Dethfeast Год назад
Those weird 19th century American forms of "Christianity" are so bizarre. I'm always so surprised that some reasonably rational and intelligent people still follow such nonsense.
@josepheridu3322
@josepheridu3322 Год назад
Not only that, but crazy forms of government and ideologies formed during that time that still hunt us. It was a crazy century because the fast technological and social changes of their time, compared to Medieval and Ancient changes.
@arobson1942
@arobson1942 2 года назад
My goodness! Now we know the identity of QAnon……Joseph Smith, Jr. reincarnated.
@rickraybourn7456
@rickraybourn7456 2 года назад
“. . .I prophesy in the name of the Lord God of Israel unless the United States redress the wrongs committed upon the Saints in the state of Missouri and punish the crimes committed by her officers that in a few years the government will be utterly overthrown and wasted, and there will not be so much as a potsherd left . . . ” (History of the Church, vol. 5, p. 394)
@RobinLynnGriffith
@RobinLynnGriffith 2 года назад
Good one!!
@stevegulick7656
@stevegulick7656 2 года назад
He was the greatest con man of all time before Donald Trump
@Sirach144
@Sirach144 2 года назад
Donald produced an amazing economy. Biden can't even produce a coherent sentence
@paulorishi8633
@paulorishi8633 Год назад
I wonder if an Astrologer or a practising Medium, could be a Community of Christ member. Thats why i am not, you are not, inclusive enough.
@theitineranthistorian2024
@theitineranthistorian2024 2 года назад
Like being in seminary class many years ago, it’s still all a bit convenient, scripture on demand. We all want to believe, I guess I just grew up.
@briannatarelli430
@briannatarelli430 2 года назад
I remember when i learned what seminary was my dad told me now you get to wake up extra early and go to church every day before school. coincidentally that is when i started using drugs
@theitineranthistorian2024
@theitineranthistorian2024 2 года назад
@@briannatarelli430 I often attended, early mourning drive towards the beach, blazing away, no one said a thing.
@briannatarelli430
@briannatarelli430 2 года назад
@@theitineranthistorian2024 The first 16 years of my life I was forced to practice this religion. I can't even count the amount arguments and punishments I've been through trying to escape Sunday school. I wouldn't even know how to express the disgust have for this religion. To top it all off to learn, through simple research, the truth about how obvious of a con man Joseph Smith was is unbelievable.
@theitineranthistorian2024
@theitineranthistorian2024 2 года назад
@@briannatarelli430 unbelievable. my family in st george, utah (where else?) won’t even engage with me.
@briannatarelli430
@briannatarelli430 2 года назад
@@theitineranthistorian2024 wow, that is twisted.
@velmajacobs933
@velmajacobs933 2 года назад
🤡
@NeverTalkToCops1
@NeverTalkToCops1 2 года назад
Fraud.
@rickraybourn7456
@rickraybourn7456 2 года назад
“. . .I prophesy in the name of the Lord God of Israel unless the United States redress the wrongs committed upon the Saints in the state of Missouri and punish the crimes committed by her officers that in a few years the government will be utterly overthrown and wasted, and there will not be so much as a potsherd left . . . ” (History of the Church, vol. 5, p. 394)
@xp8969
@xp8969 6 месяцев назад
​@@rickraybourn7456yep, that's proof it's a fraud
@gets187
@gets187 2 года назад
False religions
@jodie672
@jodie672 2 года назад
The Testimony of the Eight witnesses was NOT written by Joseph Smith but by the very 8 men who DID see the plates and handled them as they said they did, God as witness!
@suelingsusu1339
@suelingsusu1339 2 года назад
Hahahahaha.... wow.... have you never heard of people lying???
@litebkt
@litebkt 2 года назад
They later admitted to seeing them with their “spiritual eyes”. What is that supposed to mean?
@briannatarelli430
@briannatarelli430 2 года назад
As someone who grew up Mormon and then became un brainwashed as an adult, you can do it too! Ill be praying for you
@NormBoyle
@NormBoyle 2 года назад
Many of the witnesses later left the church....
@Sirach144
@Sirach144 2 года назад
Yeah and Mohammed said he saw the angel Gabriel. I'm very weary of when ONE MAN issues forth a text.
@TisEYEthe1
@TisEYEthe1 2 года назад
Soon God will go extinct. In ancient times we had far less understanding of Science, and thus had to create our own explanations of how this world worked. Today though, we know exactly what Rainbows🌈 are, and most importantly what they are NOT. My point is not about Rainbows, but how we now understand our world, and no longer need God characters anymore.
@-o-light8863
@-o-light8863 2 года назад
It's not going to happen. To try to eliminate The Creator is to try to eliminate yourself, yes we come to the point of neutralizing ourselves, but the will to exist that is The Creator will bring us to the Light. Man is an ignorant creature and makes God of everything, you made a God of science, you worship it, and kneel to it and your only and true guiding light, which is horse 🐎 shit
@Sirach144
@Sirach144 2 года назад
Yes. Rain had not been in existence before the flood. The Bible says that. So the rainbow was given as a result by the one who made science as a sign
@jodie672
@jodie672 2 года назад
- [ ] Martin Harris declared the Book of Mormon was true until the day he died. Why? when he made no money from it? - [ ] Why would Joseph Smith put himself and his family through great personal sacrifice, even to sacrifice his own life, if it were not true? - [ ] Your answer to these questions don’t matter because the Book of Mormon IS true. Joseph Smith WAS a true prophet called of God as was Moses, Abraham, Noah, etc. I know this because I have had a witness from God through the Holy Ghost that these facts are true. - [ ] Try to explain it away all you will, it won’t change the truth. God knows and at the judgment bar you will also know that the Book of Mormon is true and cost the best blood of the 19th century and no man save Jesus himself has done more for the salvation of men on this earth than the prophet Joseph Smith!
@moorek1967
@moorek1967 2 года назад
1: Just because someone tells you something does not make it true. 2: Joseph Smith did not sacrifice himself, he was thrown out a window by a mob because he started a war with the US government. If he sacrificed his family, then he murdered his family. 3: The Holy Ghost will not tell you lies especially about false prophets. Joseph Smith was just a man who wanted fame, that is all. Sorry, but the burning in your bosom does not make anything true, it makes you a cult member in adoration of a pedophilic rapist. Are you going to sit here and justify Joseph Smith taking another man's wife and "marrying" a 14 year-old girl? Seriously, the Holy Ghost would tell you to believe in a planet called Kolob and that God was not always God? Show us in the Bible if you can, where God was once a man that became exalted. You are not going to be exalted, that is the same lie told by Satan to Adam and Eve. The Book of Mormon, The Pearl of Great Price and Doctrines and Covenants are all as far away from the Bible as you can get. So why would you think the Holy Ghost would tell you that you are destined to be no more than one of some man's wives for the purpose of having space babies? Do you honestly believe holy underwear is going to save you? No, there is no burning in your bosom, you were only taught to say that when cornered on questions you want to avoid, and why would the Holy Ghost tell you the Everlasting, Immortal One with no beginning and no ending, the First and the Last, the Ancient of Days, the Eternal, would not have always been God? Think about it, do you honestly believe God was not always God? 4: Who has Joseph Smith saved? What is the salvation in a pedophilic rapist? Where does salvation lie in him? Cost his blood? Mormonism cost Joseph Smith his blood? No, Joseph Smith cost Joseph Smith's blood and he has been judged by the very same one he said was not Eternal, he died in his sins. Where do you suppose he is and what is your end for believing the lie that is Mormonism? If you died tonight and opened your eyes and stood on that other side, your sins will be judged and because you shunned the salvation in Jesus Christ, but choosing to follow a man that you know was a false prophet, where will you end up? You know you are not going to paradise and there ain't no Kolob or any other planet you are going to get. Joseph Smith and all the rest were frauds, they knew it, you know it and I know it. So why do you keep hoping that somehow some claim of a burning bosom, that you know you don't have, is going to save you?
@Menaceblue3
@Menaceblue3 2 года назад
Martin Harris believed in Joseph! 🎵Dum dum dum dum dum!🎶
@moorek1967
@moorek1967 2 года назад
@@Menaceblue3 Ha! Funny one. The person who asked the questions needs to have someone teach her the proper way to ask proper questions, just saying "Martin Harris said...." is not good enough.
@tctc440
@tctc440 2 года назад
@@moorek1967 There were many items left our & dismissed in this lecture. It's Obvious J Smith was not perfect. Neither was Abraham, Moses, etc It is interesting that you mention Kolob. According to Smith's Revelation; Kolob is located in a Binary Star System. In the 1800s Scientists Claimed there are No Binary Star Systems. Therefore proving Smith is a Fake. However, Scientists now claim Binary Star Sytems are Ubiquitous in the Universe. Everyone Believes what they Know to get them through this Life. Who Am I to Judge them. I Know what I Know & Believe what I Believe. Only God Knows if I'm right or wrong. But like David God doesn't judge us by our Stature, but by our Hearts. Love the Lord thy God with All thine Heart, Soul, Mind & Might ...
@moorek1967
@moorek1967 2 года назад
@@tctc440 There is no Kolob, period. He claims that was the "planet" on which the non-eternal before god God dwelt with his parents. Think about it. And it is not about being perfect, it is about being right. Did Joseph Smith come preaching in the name of YHWH and did he preach what YHWH taught? No. And you claim to know what you think you know, just so you don't have to admit you are a cult member in a cult of personality of a rapist of teenage girls and an adulterer. Moses said thou shalt not commit adultery, Jesus took it further and said that if a man looks on a woman with lust then he commits adultery already with her, meaning he is guilty of lusting and imagines himself being with her, meaning he is committing adultery especially if he is lusting after a married woman. Moses also said thou shalt not covet thy neighbor's wife. Joseph Smith did that very thing, but he gave himself excuse by playing prophet to people like you who excuse his behavior because deeply you agree with adultery. The Bible has always said that God is eternal, so if God is eternal, then which god did Joseph Smith claim to preach by if his god was not always eternal? Who is your god? YHWH certainly is not, and you certainly do NOT believe in Jesus Christ, you believe in some imaginary something that Joseph Smith claimed to follow. Think about it, if no church was right, meaning no doctrine was right, then why the hell did Joseph Smith claim an angel named Moroni told him about a golden book with golden pages in a language that no one else could translate.... And this f-ing gold book has a book that Smith claims to have "translated" about Abraham, but it is the damn f-ing Egyptian Book of the Dead literally found in thousands of sarcophagi and burial pots, in hieroglyphics that were already translated before Joseph Smith existed. Get it now? Do you honestly want me to believe you when you say you know what you know when there was NO NO NO NO NO such thing as Reformed Egyptian, the name of the country to the Egyptians was Khem, the religion was Khemet and the language was DEMOTIC and GE'EZ. Read a frickin history book because Joseph Smith could not even get that one little thing correct....claiming to translate a book that had ALREADY been translated. The Egyptian Book of the Dead....ALREADY translated and thousands of copies existed before Joseph Smith put his face in his hat to look at a stone so he could pretend to be a treasure seeker. Get it now? You don't know what you claim you know, so don't play this game. Oh, and by the way, Joseph Smith believed in Islam also, his quote...and I quote..."The Prophet inculcates the notion, and it is believed by every true Mormon, that Smith’s prophecies are superior to the laws of the land. I have heard the Prophet say that he would yet tread down his enemies, and walk over their dead bodies; and if he was not let alone, he would be a second Mohammed to this generation, and that he would make it one gore of blood from the Rocky mountains to the Atlantic ocean; that like Mohammed, whose motto in treating for peace was, ‘the Alcoran or the Sword.’ So should it be eventually with us, ‘Joseph Smith or the Sword.’ These last statements were made during the last summer. The number of armed men at Adam-ondi-Ahman was between three and four hundred” (History of the Church 3:167). Get it? His religious figure he adored was the fake prophet Mohammad who also raped a little girl and took wives from their husbands. Can you right now tell me how Joseph Smith was a man of peace and a prophet when he stated he wanted to be like the other false prophet who also claimed to be peace when beheading people? Go ahead, tell me how Joseph Smith is a prophet.
@benwalsh9963
@benwalsh9963 2 года назад
The first thing this speaker needs to do is verify that he is qualified to talk about the Book of Mormon by a statement of faith. For example there is one thing a Jesuit cannot say because it is spiritually discerned are these words: It is no longer I who live but Christ lives through me and the life I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the son of God. Until this guy can do this he is not qualified to comment being that he is probably a Jesuit imposter. Oh the Jesuits hate that book. That's a proof of its authenticity
@SploinkyDH.
@SploinkyDH. 2 года назад
What are you talking about? This is nonsense.
@thenowchurch6419
@thenowchurch6419 2 года назад
You are quite confused. A Jesuit is trained or at least was trained to make any profession necessary to convince their hearers. If this guy is a Jesuit, his attestation to the verse you specify would not prove anything and there is no reason he could not say it. Maybe you mean, he would not be able to say it with genuine sincerity but that is impossible to know beyond doubt apart from a divine revelation. The Jesuit's hatred of a book is no proof that it is authentic. They also hate the writings of Ellen G. White. Are those authentic as well?
@suelingsusu1339
@suelingsusu1339 2 года назад
"That's proof of its authenticity".... hahahahahaha... HAHAHAHAHA.... wow... hilarious.... there is nothing authentic whatsoever about the book of Maronic or it's Forger Smith..... hahahaha.... 🤣😂🤣😂🤣😂🤣😂🤣😂🤣🤦‍♀️🤦‍♀️🤦‍♀️🤦‍♀️🙏🙏🙏🙏🙏
@briannatarelli430
@briannatarelli430 2 года назад
You need help from a therapist to become un ben walshed!
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