While Gohan's Saiyaman antics were cringe, I kinda felt it was necessary to start off so comedic and light, to give Gohan the chance to have the action-comedy life that his dad had as a kid that Gohan was robbed of. I was okay with the series taking a break from the repetitive conflict structure from the last two arcs. Sadly, the Goku show had to continue.
@Joshua Beckett Gotenks has pretty much always been useless aside from Yo Son Goku and Friends Return. Vegito, while powerful, never really gets to resolve the story because Toriyama takes things a different direction. And Gogeta typically has gotten to win whenever he's involved, aside from GT where all he did was negate Omega Shenron's negative aura before defusing.
@Joshua Beckett i think the ultimate warrior should generally win battles or their ultimate warrior title should be taken away, but hey, maybe you like it when the superman gets shot by a gun and goes down in one because of plot contrivance rather than any actual, real reason. vegito should have won at least once, but he never has, so why do they keep fusing into him? it's clearly not working.
Tbh, the very beginning of the Buu arc with Gohan meeting Videl in high school was the best part of the entire saga imo. I live for the slice-of-life moments in DBZ, lol.
In hindsight, I kind of like that Ultimate Gohan and fusion had no real effect on the story. It made it feel like the characters were truly desperate and threw everything they had at the wall to see what would stick, and then were faced to deal with reality. But at the end of the day I know it was just Toriyama experimenting and being somewhat careless, lol.
I feel like that's the main problem, nowadays everyone worries way too much about what the creators intention was and that brings the enjoyment down as a whole.
I like this aspect too. I mean, the same thing happens in all of the arcs really. The heroes are always desperately trying things to beat the villain, and they always gain the upper hand for a bit before letting it slip away. Is Piccolo fusing with nail to fight Frieza really necessary? No, other than to force Frieza to use more of his power that he could have used at any point. With Buu, the difference is that he's not just holding back, but doesn't actually have the necessary power to win, so he has to scheme and set a trap to gain said power by absorbing the heroes. In that regard, I feel like that's actually better storytelling! And it explains the huge personality shifts in Buu that were complained about in the video. Buu is still my least favorite arc, but it's also still enjoyable and quintessential DBZ
I think the whole "throwing everything you have at the enemy" thing worked better in the Saiyan and Freeza arcs though. At least, the concept was utilised better. Since Boo regenerates, there is no lasting damage, so it just feels unimportant.
@@nicholasdiaz1925 Piccolo fusing with Naill was necessary since he saves Gohan,Krillin and Vegeta from Freeza and its because of that power up that he survives long enough to save Goku from Freeza while he is charging the Spirit Bomb. Ultimate Gohan and SSJ3 Gotenks did not matter to the plot so much they might as well be filler and filler is bad because it halts the progression of the story.
@@AlexanderDiviFilius You could be right there, something that bugged me about Vegeta's sacrifice is that it didn't do anything to Buu. Had it shown a weakness in his regeneration then possibly it would have been ok.
One of the things that will always annoy me about the Buu saga is with Dabura. You introduce the guy as the "Demon King". That was a character with such an absurd amount of wasted potential.
For a guy who was basically the Satan of dragon ball, I find it hard that he can't beat a couple endangered alien species regardless of how strong they are.
Every great franchise, film, TV, anime....if it goes on long enough, that is what it eventually becomes. Single films, and maybe a set of 2-3 films can be pretty darn close to perfect. A mini-series or a limited series or one that doesn't go on TOO long...they can maintain and feel complete and not really have anything that bogs them down. But when you have something like Star Wars(which now includes hundreds of episodes of television on TOP of 11 films)...Dragon Ball(which, all in, even using Kai instead of Z, is at 451 episodes), Star Trek, the Marvel Cinematic Universe....anything. You get to a point where the narrative keeps going further and further away from the initial spark that made it originally work so well....and more and more new concepts and characters get introduced and piled on top of each other, and more and more inconsistencies and flaws pop up, and every new piece runs the inevitable risk of becoming "The weakest entry in the series so far" and that becomes a heavier burden the longer any series goes on. More and more 'weak links' are able to pop up, because they are ultimately supported by the long time fans who also become forgiving. If the type of poor storytelling of the Star Wars Disney Trilogy was found in an ORIGINAL property, it would be quickly forgotten. If the messy plot execution of Super, or the Buu Saga were found in an ORIGINAL property, it would not be a hit series. You get into this "Well, I love PARTS of this franchise/series so much(usually the earlier parts) that I want to keep loving it and love all of it" so you have dedicated fans becoming very forgiving of films and shows. Just as almost every great TV series sees a decline in the storytelling before the series eventually ends.
@Ish Moore I know. The truth hurts, but facts don't care about feelings. The best storytelling in the Dragon Ball Saga happened YEARS ago. The "Fandom" has morphed into a bunch of people who aren't really fans, they just want to be loyal to the brand and "Defend their purchase"
I like thinking of Buu as a reflection of the main characters. He doesn’t necessarily stand for anything in particular (like Frieza as an emperor or Cell as perfection), but rather reflects what is thrown at him. As our battle-obsessed characters overwhelm him with fighting as their form of ending conflicts, Buu changes from a fun-loving squishy being into a chizzled warrior bent on trying to be the strongest, a character flaw literally absorbed from the main characters.
Also worth mentionning is Piccolo talk's with Videl where he tell her that basically Satan is the savior of the world, having made friends with Buu instead of just trying to beat him.
Yeah,lol,but i guess those ppl got revived from it? I hope they aren't around being made of clay anymore on a house that i don't think anyone uses, lol.
Guilhermessj I assume they got turned back into people from the wish that was made to bring back everyone killed by Majin Buu, the wish must also count for the fat one as well.
My big disappointment with this arc was the fact that the first act clearly set Gohan up as our protagonist, and there were a huge amount of time, story beats, and foreshadowing dedicated to hyping Gohan up as the hero of this story. We got all this time to get to know an older Gohan, see how his life has progressed since Goku died, and the fact that he's seemingly been goofing off and not taking the role of "Earth's defender" seriously. Then he finally unlocks the power needed to defeat the villain (in an admittedly anticlimactic way), only to make the same mistake he'd already made previously in the Cell Arc and lose the fight. Then Goku and Vegita have to make an out of place come back to save the day. The story just kept building to this epic moment for Gohan, and literally removed Goku and Vegita from the main point of prominence in the story, only to pull the rug out from underneath us and have Goku come back to reclaim the spot as the main character. I watched this saga as a teenager and remember feeling like all the story beats and buildup for Gohan at the start of the arc were a waste of my time.
@@wyveriusblackfire3834 yeah but that was literally at the beginning of the damn arc, that's why we begin with a high school life to buu himself. You're using it incorrectly
I noticed he actually held his own against Buutenks at the start. But Gohan was suddenly getting his ass kicked in the opening of the next episode. I always found that a bit strange.
@@j.ronnygibson he has blood of a race lives on fighting it makes no sense to resists a argue thats literally in your blood hell super has gohan saying he is enjoying the fight that goku and toppo is in due to his saiyan blood ok it was peacful ok he is half human but his dad gave his life for gohan to become the protecter he should have train or fought you know evil during the 7 year time gap hell trunks and even krillin have it worse then gohan
Jack Aufenhand it may not be necessary actually. still a favorite form a mine (especially how deep his Kai voice is.) either they could of cut it out or made it last longer, maybe even make it replace his second to make him more monstrous? idk just spitballing
Thats true but at least it had an effect on showing them even more how they are outclassed since when the 3rd Form mopped Piccolo at that Point, how strong would he be if he transforms even further? It was basically for tension
People forgetting that Buu did what the other villains couldn’t, he literally wiped out the human race and proceeded to blow up the earth. Not even Frieza nor cell could accomplish that. Take that in for a moment
I mean... Technically they could have. Frieza could have went straight to earth popped out and planet vegeta'd it before we went to namek if he chose to. Cell could have definitely just blown the earth up at anytime before he enraged gohan he just chose to do the cell games and play with them.
Frieza and Cell didn’t want to blow up the earth. They could care less. Frieza just wanted immortality. Cell just wanted to make sure he was the best , probably due to his saiyan DNA. He used blowing up the earth as motivation to get the best of his opponents for his tournaments
To use some pro wrestling parlance; Buu wiping out the earth should have been the moment the monster was made. But this angle had so much going on that it became a footnote.
Goku will Save Us! *bloop* times up Gotenks will Save Us! *bloop* times up Gohan will Save Us! *bloop* Buu ate everyone! Vegito will Save Us! *bloop* Vegita broke the earring. Super Saiyan 3, Fusion Dance, Unlocking New Powers, Fusion Earrings. Any one of these would've been enough for one arc, but it had all of these.
lol stfu, Akira Toriyama wanted to quit dragon ball after thefreeza arc, and people kept asking for more, so he created the cell arc, and then people AGAIN kept asking for more, which ended up with the buu arc ...
Is it though? I still feel like, unless mr. Satan or any other member of the cast is there to incite him, he would still ignore most criminal acts around him. He went from a problem child manipulated by an evildoer to a problem child under the care of mr. Satan. It's a welcome but unexceptional change, at least to me
Right, and the best/worst part is that it's considered one of the most impactful (wait, that word exists?) moments of dragon ball z 😅 PD : yall didn't asked me, but one of my favorite moments is that vegeta sacrifice, followed right away by the gohan ssj 2 evolution (the spanish dub of that scene made a plus to make it one of my favorite scenes, lol)
@@1krani No, the fact his explosion made Buu like a joke. He regenerated from thousands of pieces to one. Buu is the most dangerous villain in DBZ ever.
Vegeta is better than Goku imo, he just makes more sense and isn't as dumb. His raw strength is currently stronger than Goku's and yeah I know Goku has UI but that power can be achieved by almost everyone, he can't activate on command. Vegeta SSBE > Goku SSBKKx20 *because* it doesn't drain as much energy
My two favorite series of events in the whole series come from this arc. Those being Gohan’s school antics and training Videl, and Mr. Satan befriending Buu.
So basically the "slice of life" moments. We barely see any of that in dragonball outside of fillers, and that's a shame. They really help flesh out the characters.
I was honestly kind of hype at the start of the Buu arc. It felt like the series had reembraced its humor. The reintroduction of magic and it being the source of Buu's power seemed like maybe it would require the heroes to approach him differently than the "keep training / Zenkai boosting until you can handle the villain" that'd become a rut even by this point.
Kid Buu maybe (and that's why he was the perfect villain to end DBZ for me), but Super Buu liked to have fun fighting, just like Cell's perfect form, and Mr. Buu had a great character development in the arc.
@@subwaysurfer5378 could you tell me other DB villains (before Buu of course) that are like him? Because mostly of the boring and generic ones are like Freeza.
Skooma inna cup rn Welll, i agree that some of this is pretty dumb, but the buu saga does go pretty slow. Just watch the buu saga, it’s still definitely a great arc, but it’s veeeryyyy slow (in comparison to the rest of dbz)
@@TamperedSource It's not a bad arc, just the weakest and he makes fair points. Buu as character is the weakest of them all. His only reason to exist is give an excuse for the insane amount of crazy powerups. "A hero is only as good as his villian" meaning if the villain is weak the entire heroes story falls apart. Look at Vegeta, Frieza, and Cell and compare to them to Buu. It's clear Buu is the weakest in terms of characterization. Vegeta wants to be stronger to avenge the saiyan race, Frieza wants the dragonballs to become immortal because he fears death, Cells entire purpose was to destroy goku to get revenge for his creator. Buu has no goal, no motivation, no kind of personality. He's just a pink blob who absorbs people and likes to kill. Atleast with Babdi buu had a reason to exist but once he was killed off, Buu was just there. He added nothing nor subtracted anything, just a threat that exists.
Remember when Goku had to heal inside a bubble machine for 20 episodes? Or that time he spent training while flying through space in a ship because he hadn't learned instant transmission yet? Pepperidge farm remembers.
Just rewatch it as DB Kai and you see, that the fight does not get milked at all. That's because in the original DB, the fight had many filler elements due to catching up the the source material. That means, while the fight in DBZ is 20 parts or something like that, in DBK it's only 4 or 5.
RG Phoenix regeneration doesn’t mean immortality or invincibly he can only absorb other namekians plus he doesn’t like to and piccolo is a worrier clan namekian not dragon clan so he can’t make dragon balls
Here's what I think about the Buu arc character wise: Goku needed to learn that he indeed has to stay on Earth in order to protect it. Villains that don't have anything to do with him can show up and totally annihilate those he entrusted Earth to. Vegeta needed to learn that teaming up isn't announcing you're weak. It's admitting that you will overcome any obstacle, including getting outside help. Gohan needed to learn that his dad won't always be there, that Vegeta sometimes won't be enough, and that he needs to take responsibility and step up to the plate if either of them are absent. Piccolo needs to learn to help train the future generation so that situations like Buu don't happen again. And Goten/Trunks need to learn to not rush into things and be cocky/follow the leader. They need to learn that they are responsible for protecting the Earth, but also that they need to learn to take it seriously.
I'd have to disagree on a few of those points. If Goku didn't come back, Buu probably wouldn't have woken up. Piccolo had already trained Gohan personally, he seemed to understand the future generation was going to surpass them but needed his guidance.
goku had a fair point of trusting in the kids power when fused and that, like that, the would be able to defeat fat buy, and they would be ready in the future vegeta fused with Goku once and he was willing to do it at the end as well, and that's totally unexpected coming from him they also messed up with Gohan and yeah, it was pathetic for him to not train throughout the years especially with Goku out of the picture and yeah gotenks is a sin in the arc
I think I agree with you there. Also, I'd add that Goku himself needs to learn to take things seriously sometimes. In bothering to fight Vegeta at all, he was WORSE than Gotenks. Cause he KNEW he could've ended things right away with SS3 - either by beating Vegeta physically, or emotionally (maybe Vegeta would've just deflated at the sight of that and admitted defeat?). Anyway, that fight was unnecessary and just to fuel his battle-lust. He put his fun ahead of a quick resolution, and in doing so, helped to bring about the disaster that followed. Definitely guilty.
I adored Buu's inconsistency, his many forms. Buu was described as a destructive being that was just barely contained by a dark magician. And in many regards we saw glimpses of that until he was finally cut free. And unlike all the other villains before him, he was entirely unpredictable. He was pure chaos. And that grew more and more until kid buu. I considered it brilliant. I was indeed never comfortable with this villain. I felt much more fear than I did with any villain prior. Because he was difficult to read and had the power and capacity to make any random and destructive choice. He was horrifying. I loved it.
i actually like the fact the buu's personality changes when he eats people/transforms/gets stronger. Its like he takes them in mind, body, and soul. Plus, Its more tense because you have NO idea how he is going to react after each transformation.
I loved how dark the android/cell ark was. Including the history of trunks and the conclusion to trunks returning to his time line. It was the highlight for dragonball z for me.
@@whatsupbossanova yeah for sure. Genocide and racism all balled up into a hateful being with exraordinary power who kills for fun. Frieza was no joke.
@@DaDualityofMan hey same. Seeing gohan loose his arm was so shocking i didnt want to to believe it. Then he got killed and it was the first time as a kid i saw real ass content from the cartoons/anime i watched.
They needed to do so much more with his "Ultimate" form. Sure its not as flashy as SSJ, but IF Toriyama ever allowed him to learn its true potential, he'd be on par with Goku/ Vegeta. Think about this for a second... Toriyama stated the reason for Goku not being able to use the spirit bomb while in SSJ form is because that form requires MALICE. Gohans ultimate form is similar if not out right the same as the Spirit Bomb, only it infuses with his entirety not just manifesting into an attack, but instead his "Ultimate" form. If done right they could show how he can POTENTIALLY gain similar power to the angels with this form amd be on par if not outright stronger than SSJB. Tons of potential, just wasting away.
90% of the arc was Goku relying om somebody besides him to take care of the problem and in the end they all just made things worse until Goku finally took care of the problem.
Buu saga was the one with the least amount of editorial meddling. Previous arcs of Dragon Ball shaped into their final forms pretty much through Toriyama's editors, but Buu arc was him doing what he wanted. Toriyama is excellent artist, and his page composition is probably among best in the industry, but on story side he pretty much benefited from editors guiding him.
I'm glad someone else said this. I've been saying it for the past year now. I think many of us should be a lot more grateful to Toriyama's editors for helping to steer him in a good direction. I think the modern era compared to the Z or early era shows us the difference they made.
It's uncertain how much of an effect on the plotting the change in editors had, since most of the editorial advising that we're familiar with are primarily just beefs with the type of villain he was going for throughout the Cell arc. There's little we have to go on beyond that, with too many variables at hand. At the end of the day, it all just boiled down to franchise fatigue.
@@Sawngawkuh Yeah that's true. We however know that Toriyama-san's first editor, Torishima-san recommended he make a shonen story about kung-fu. Without that, there is no Dragon Ball. So we can take that and the other notable edits Torishima-san advised in the Cell arc and extrapolate that Torishima-san had a huge influence on the franchise, nearly, if not as much as Toriyama-san. And likely, other editors had a huge influence as well, and clearly without them, DB has lost ... something.
@@BelartWright There's a significant difference between recommending what kind of concept the author should tackle for their next story, and actually supplying in-depth ideas, advising on the plot's structure, what scenario should occur as a result of the last one, making them keep in mind the pacing of an event, and so on. Being the one to supply the genre behind an author's work doesn't really correlate with how well one is at being an editor. And just to remind, but those influences in the Cell arc aren't very story-centric. They're just him repeatedly telling him that his new villains looked lame and don't work as bad guys (which, when it came to 17 and 18, were comments that wound up being largely debatable, given how successfully malicious they could appear in supplementary material, showing the potential they could've had in Toriyama's own serialization). He wasn't his editor by then, so he could only say so much without impeding on someone else's job. I don't mean to undermine whatever involvement he had with the franchise, but at the end of the day, there's just not much to go off of. It's still uncertain if Toriyama, in his prime, was the kind of author that really needed to be kept in check or if it's just franchise fatigue inevitably seeping in after the series got bloated for so long and the cracks were starting to take their toll. It's especially blurry when the most notable examples of changed plans back then weren't alterations of inherently bad ideas, but just things that make us fans go "Aw, we wouldn't have this cool character and this other cool character if it weren't for these complaints!" in hindsight. That and the conditions and deadlines were starting to really be a burden for Toriyama, which could've had an effect on his work.
Most of the Buu arc problems come down to one specific thing: Toriyama was just burnt out. Not only in the writing, but also in the artwork too. You can feel Toriyama's exhaustion during this arc from the drawings alone.
I liked the Buu saga, and some of the most iconic moments of DBZ took place during its span, but there was definitely a tonal shift, and it feels more lighthearted and goofy compared to Frieza and Cell.
Saiyan saga: is intimately connected to the protagonist past and its unkown secrets Frieza saga: links its new concepts with we already knew and didn't knew for a dramatic climax Cell saga: rescues elements apparently forgotten and starts the development of Gohan Buu saga: *random bullshit, go*
I disagree about gohans development in the cell/android saga because he did absolutely nothing until the end when a head of a robot id be surprised he knew the name of died Also he a pasfist now
"I think Mr. Satan should have trained martial arts skills more than his mouth!" In the Cell Games, Mr. Satan was a joking lier with his pants actually on fire from Cell`s energy blast. Although Cell held back on Mr. Hercule Mark Satan. In Buu Saga Mr. Satan showed that you do not have to always be aggressive to end a crisis. That lesson goes back to what started Dragon Ball since the beginning!" I fell in love with the Dragon Ball Franchise starting with the very first season of Dragon Ball. Then it continued throughout Dragon Ball Z all the way through GT. " I still love Super too!" We should enjoy the whole franchise since all series actually tell a relevant story that explains the whole truth behind the characters and their journeys. I will not tell anyone what to do. "Instead say I love the whole franchise!"
When you consider the fact that they're moving at relativistic speeds and factor in Einstein's theory of special relativity, it's entirely possible that the fight we saw took place over the course of five minutes due to time dilation. Of course, Toei didn't think of that and just wanted the fight to be long.
@@komrot5305 in the manga the fight is much shorter, it's extended in the og dbz anime because of filler and the anime was way ahead of the manga, Kai shortens it but the manga is still shorter than kai.
@@komrot5305 I completely agree. It makes a lot of sense. Its actually weirder when they say the fusion has a 30 min timer, so that should technically be an eternity at their speeds.
I so appreciate your intelligence in covering the topics that you analyze. There's an effort and care that you don't often find from other creators. I can't wait to binge everything you've done!
ya Toriyama is not some masterful writer. He always just wrote what he wanted at the time and especially with how successful Dragon Ball became his editors basically allowed him to write what ever no questions asked (the same thing happened to George Lucas and the Prequels although George is a better writer and the prequels did have a great story hidden behind all of the shit but off topic) and as a result we went from the Cell saga where Gohan was suppose to take over to nvm Goku is back and Gohan kinda got shoved into his role of fighting the bad guy to stall him until daddy arrives.
Him murdering a bunch of innocent people just cause he wants to fight goku therefore derailing his previous character development? His arc was long over and so was everyone elses thats why this arc feels so fillery. Vegeta blowing himself up literally accomplished nothing and in a world where death is a slap on the wrist its not even that emotional either.
Then you totally fucking missed the point of "earth needs to be protected by the people living on it", the dark side of humanity like that robber turning boo into Super boo and Satan motivating humans to give their Ki for Genki-Dama
@@waiflu Except that Vegeta did not know that his soul would be retained to be able to be revived by the dragon balls in the first place. He, and all of us, thought his death was going to be it for good.
The part with Satan and Buu living together and the events that transpire from it are also a highlight. They justify Satan's existence as more than a one shot character and provide pretty much all of Majin Buu's character development throughout the arc. They're also the reason Buu got to be such a different main villain in the first place, because this part allowed him to start off as chaotic neutral and become truly villainous later. Without it, Buu would have to be a monster from the start for things to make sense.
Honestly I think Toriyama just didn't know how to finish it so every "phase" of the buu Saga was its own ending until he found the ending he thought was the best
gotenks and ultimate gohan underwhelming was the whole point. it validates goku having to stay back on earth since he's the only reliable person that can handle the responsibility to be earth's greatest defender. he hoped he could put it on gohan but gohan doesn't have what it takes. he lacks leadership, decisiveness, competitiveness, and drive to push himself to the limits. goten and trunks weren't ready and probably aren't going to be.
Which is exactly why z ends with a fart and not applause. Goku stopped being a character in the buy saga, he was just a plot device and literally everything else was just a pointless prop. Which is why the arc sucks. It's a significant amount of totally unimportant wasted time. It's also totally stupid to act like relying on Goku is a good thing, as a most points in the story most of the problems exist because Goku literally doesn't take things seriously until people are actually dead, any significant amount of the problems get worse because of Goku's own kind of reckless attitude. He's just the McGuffin of "I'm the strong one". And genuinely, and no way shape or form does he actually begin to start and act like someone with any degree of responsibility or sense. Which is actually bad character writing because it seemed like after the cell saga he did learn quite a bit and should have been a lot more mature from literally just the ark that happened then.
I feel like gohan not being able to hold the torch TEMPORARILY, could have been good. Maybe he did keep training, but he gets overconfident with Buu and almost dies, which leads to the failure of Gotenks which and the death of everyone on the planet, so when Gohan See's the product of his mistake, he's gets the Ultimate form which allows him to destroy Buu completely, and from this saga onward he could be more serious and not such an arrogant moron. Just a concept, and I'd say that vegeta shouldn't die especially if he's just gonna get revived smh.
Lmao xD. The buu saga is far better written than the cell saga. The cell saga starts good, but goes to shit fast, until the cell games begin its literally the worst saga in dbz
@@bladey_0_10 literally jist finished rewatching dbz. The buu saga makes way more sense than the cell saga does. The cell saga only has its start and finish going well. The rest is the worst of dbz.
This was the point when Toriyama was burned out from writing Dragon Ball and looking at this arc it shows. It feels very disappointing how despite being built up Gotenks and Gohan never amount to anything in the grand scheme of things and apparently it's a Spirit Bomb of all random things, yeah the same attack that failed twice in Dragon Ball story and only succeeded in the movies is the one that kills the main villain and that itself is due to Hercule of all people and that's because nobody except for the gang on Earth refused to listen to Goku and Vegeta despite them all being killed by Buu and getting revived by the Dragon Balls yet somehow refuse to believe it all happened until Hercule said so because the people on Earth are the stupidest beings in the Universe.
@@dinogt8477 Yeah i will admit that for as much as i liked the Android and Cell Arc it's time travel plot is really confusing and hard to understand which is the result of Toriyama having to change the villains several times at the advice of his editor.
@@PlaidMystic I did hear that was what happened but i have also heard how Toriyama did the decision himself because of how he couldn't write Gohan as the main character. To me this serves as an indication for why Super and the Buu Arc to an extent are mediocre in the writing because of how limited Toriyama is in creative writing and rather than learning new things and improve his writing for a better quality show we instead not only get the same things we saw in Z for Super but in inferior quality as well since it has little of the creativity, passion and effort put into it like with Z that made the latter into a major icon of all Anime.
Seeing the humans devolve from well written and caring in the original to literally brain dead by the end of z manages to ruin the climax of the entire story because having the entire earth help you would have been an amazingly bulbils up thing with all the people holy has helped but instead it barley does anything and the entire climax is ruined to make joke about me satan
Cant wait to see your drawing of Cell in Toriyama's style, after drawing him myself I now understand why Frieza came back to life instead haha. So detailed!
"Buu doesn't have personality...... as a result needs babidi as his mouthpiece......". My Brain: "Ladies and gentlemen my name is paul heyman, and this is BRAAAAAACCCCCKKKKKK LESSSSSSSSNARRRRRR!!!!!"
The Buu saga is actually my favorite, I like the drag time and the unnecessary things (because many unnecessary things happen during important events IRL so makes it feel more realistic to me) I love the desperation Buu caused in the Z Fighters, everything
>Laughs in Kai/original manga I will say that even in Kai the final fight between Super Saiyan Goku and Frieza drags a bit too long and could've been shorter, but it isn't nearly as bad as it used to be, and it isn't as bad as the Buu Saga is. Saiyan and Cell saga are both better paced than it though.
Yep...When I see a lot of the ways DBZ and DBS played out in the long run....a reboot of ALL of Dragon Ball would make me just want to delete a lot of arcs entirely and replace them with time skips. Not nearly as many SS levels. If Goku and Vegeta are destined to forever be the co-leads of the show, then don't give Gohan so much shine just to take it away. Make SS a pure-blooded Saiyan thing. Basically, you have Dragon Ball, Z, and Super...and ideally you would want each of those '3rds' to be made up of 3rds of its own. Dragon Ball - Pilaf and the '1st tournament' arc, then the King Piccolo Arc, then the Piccolo Jr arc...no Red Ribbon, no 2nd martial arts Tournament. Incorporate the best elements of the 1st and 2nd tournament arcs into one arc. Plus...you get a through-line. Initial Dragon Ball adventures with Pilaf, which leads to training with Roshi for years and the first tournament, which Goku loses to learn humility...then King Piccolo shows up and you get that arc and then go right into the Jr arc. All of the important character introductions and concepts from those other arcs could be incorporated into that structure. Dragon Ball Z - Saiyan Arc, Namek Arc, Frieza arc.....then maybe do some sort of 'Revived Frieza and Broly' arc after that. Just swap out Golden Frieza battling SS Blue Goku and Vegeta to Golden Frieza battling SS Goku and Vegeta...only Vegeta gets the kill on Frieza once and for all. Broly becomes the mega threat that Goku and Vegeta must rely on fusion to overcome. Only one type of fusion, the dance yielding Gogeta. The earring thing always felt like a cheap 'this is easier and stronger BUT permanent(except it isn't) weird trump card. No future trunks, no androids, no "Gohan is always secretly the strongest but sidelined" bullcrap. You either have him lead, or don't bother making him the lead. Don't play both sides. Super - That is when you get into the God of Destruction Arc, the Universe 6 Tournament, and eventually the Tournament of Power. No Resurrection F here(because we use it back in Z as a pathway into a Broly arc), no Goku Black. This way, you have a more straight forward tier system. Super Saiyan, God(which would be either God or Blue, they would be a combined tier, not God and THEN Blue beyond it), and then Ultra Instinct.
You forgot one important part about the Buu arc. Toriyama had nowhere near the amount of...let's call it meddling...by editors as he did in previous arcs. The Android Saga was originally going to only have Androids 20 and 19 as the main antagonists. His editor's comments gave rise to 17 and 18. Cell was only going to have one form. But due to the editor, we would up with Semi-Perfect and Perfect Cell. I believe if his editor was this much of a pest during the Buu Saga, we would have gotten something radically different, possibly much better. Granted, I used the terms "meddling" and "pest" because of how much they interacted with Toriyama. For the Buu Saga he was basically left to his own devices.
Eric Staples The editors were saying, “ You are not seriously going to have an old man and a mime as the villain?! You’re not seriously going to have two teens and a red head giant as the villains?! You’re not going to have a giant bug as the villain?! Stop messing with us and give Cell his perfect form!”
making vegeta the twist villain would've been lame. he was anti-hero going through a mid life crisis to fully come to terms with who he is so it shouldnt have been dragged out for him to be the main villain. the tension wouldnt be there anyway since goku was stronger than him.
Who said goku had to be stronger? Vegeta was stronger in the android saga. He could have and should have been on par with goku at the start of buu saga. Goku being so far ahead, even though vegeta trained so hard for so many years, was not only bad for the story, but also unrealistic. Vegeta being the main villain of the last saga could work, if done right.
Buu's absorption ability could have been such a great narrative tool for character confrontation- We see Buu take on the features and personalities of those he absorbs. The Kai who were respected and love by Kaio Shin. Both of Goku's sons, Gohan's mentor and little brother, Vegeta's only son. It would have been amazing seeing their interpersonal conflicts be channeled through Buu's dialogue as he fights them.
How about this - Babidi releases Buu but is immediately disappointed because Fat Buu isn't the world-ending avatar of death he thought he was. He doesn't know that Buu needs to absorb others to gain power, and part of being sealed in the seed was the extensive process of stripping away everyone he absorbed, leaving just a child-like husk. With every absorption, he takes on the qualities and power of who he absorbed, so in order to create the monstrous Majin Buu of legend, he basically had to be fed 'properly'. Babidi eventually figures this out through some mechanism, and begins using it to build Buu's power. And early in the saga, one of the first characters Buu absorbs is Majin Vegeta. This causes him to take on Vegeta's power and personality, but because he was so early in the power-growth stage, Vegeta's strong personality made him immediately break from Babidi's control. As the series go on, the other characters learn about the absorption and fall one-by-one to Buu who increasingly grows in power. In desperation, they look elsewhere for answers, and that's where they learn about their OWN powers of fusion where they can mimic Buu's enormous power multiplication. My only worry is that this is a little bit like Cell, honestly.
For me, the arc suffers because: 1. Buu is an improperly fleshed out antagonist with no meaningful motivations 2. There are far too many transformations/power ups without enough time put into them that would deem them earned and/or justified. 3. Much of the dialog gets too silly at times, and only results in a degradation of the character's personality (which had been established and built upon by the previous arcs) 4. It followed the Cell Saga. Which, had a definitive end from a well structured story that included many thorough character arcs. So what ever followed the Cell Saga had to be as good or better to keep itself from looking like trash.
I think Super Buu, no fusion, had a great design. He was massive, but not Broly muscular. A very lean, fighter-esque physique. And he was very brutal, simply wanting to kill, without the frenetic psychotic factor of Kid Buu. But of course, speaking of Kid Buu, that’s something he had going for him. You couldn’t reason with him. You couldn’t even talk to him. All you could do was run. And when you did, the place you ran from suffered. He was the original God Of Destruction.
I actually noticed this the other day. I watched the Vegito-Buu fight on youtube, the full thing's about an hour. *My. God.* For a character and a moment that I remember being so bad-ass, holy shit there's a lot of filler and unnecessary stops in the fighting. There's zero threat and zero tension, it's crazy. The one time Buu actually poses a threat, when he starts messing about with the fabric of spacetime again in a rage, Vegito just punches him within seconds of him getting angry. Vegito turns into chocolate, a minute later he's bitch slapping Buu anyway. Buu captures them, and you're immediately shown that they're fine: no dwelling on the hopelessness that Buu's potentially won or anything like that. Considering Buu's killed everyone, it's mad how little it feels like there is at stake!
That is the point you idiot, there isn't supposed to be tension in that part. Just like how there wasn''t supposed to be tension with Gohan vs Cell jrs or Vegeta vs andriod 19, or even SSj2 vs Cell before he regenerated. Some fights are made with the sole purpose of establishing characters as strong or weak or to create hype. Learn a thing about writing befoe you try to critisize someones writing.
@@Laneous14 I don't think the Buu arc was well written, but it was still fun and DEFINITELY had some of the most emotional moments in the franchise. It had good representations of the side characters and even gave character development to Majin Buu and Hercule.
Kojin Non canon adventures is more like it. We are talking about toriyamas story telling skills. The crabventures are anime only. The Frieza Arc is the best paced arc.
They did make the cell saga better somehow, gave 16 a good (yet short) backstory on how he became a android, and made krillens and 18s relationship a bit more believable (asides from the fucking jokes) They'll figure something out (not to mention how they made hellsing ultimate entertaining that the original thing where the jokes......don't hit well).
>they made krilling and 18s relationship more believable ?? not they didnt they just made jokes that shes gonna fuck him if she survives wow 10/10 writing 18 loves krillin because he risked the world getting destroyed with not destroying her and wanting to make her life better with wishing her to be a normal human(didnt work) again
Good things that came out of the Buu arc: -Vegeta throwing away his pride and his sacrifice -Mr. Satan and Fat Buu's character development (Hercule is MVP in this saga, change my mind) -Hercule and Fat Buu’ friendship -introduces alot of very cool transformations and techniques Everything bad about the Buu saga -Every Saiyan getting free power-ups, normalizing the transformation everyone used to claim being “Legendary” -Everyone either exist to be a jobbee or walking power-ups (Babidi with the Majin forms or the absorbtions) -Super Buu being a copy-phase of Cell (Regeneration, absorbtion, copy moves) -The plot doesn’t have anywhere to go and it’s all over the place
wouldn't call every power up "free" honestly also buu can regenerate and absorb but feels more...ancient and powerful different then cell also super buu did have personality
@@jaydenc367 Goku gained SSJ3 offscreen. Fusion dance was learned in minutes(and originally gained offscreen). Fusion earrings literally just get put on. Goten and Trunks attained SSJ "just because." Elder Kai just did a Super Kami Guru to Gohan. If those aren't solid examples of "undeserved" then I don't know what is.
@@InfernosReaper I wouldn't say goku getting ss3 is undeserved with theexcuse of him training in otherworld. the fusion dance? are you kidding? that took trunks and goten a while to get down and we saw it on screen. because s cells dude...s cells especcialy since by the time they were conceived there dads already had awakening there power to become super saiyans already. TFS fan I see? eh...gohan was kinda already awakened and it kinda had to do with the z sword but I can kinda see your point
@@jaydenc367 Goku's power up was off-screen, so it felt kinda cheap. Fusion dance really didn't take much time to get down for what it does. . The "s-cells" thing honestly sounds like some weird fan-canon. If that's *really* how it worked, Goku wouldn't have been so weak, while Broly and Vegeta wouldn't have been so strong. Moreover, the entire race would've been strong enough to crush Frieza when he decided to try to blow up the planet.
@@InfernosReaper you mean his "original" power up going ss3? maybe still what I said isn't wrong. I felt fusion dance took a while well...s cells IMO doesn't feel much like fanfic anymore at this point...( I guess sometimes the series could feel like that is what I mean but it doesn't mean those things are bad) but...in canon do we really know how strong bardock is? vegeta being strong makes sense as he is the prince of all saiyans king vegeta would have been one of the strongest saiyans at the time...Broly is strong for a pretty different reason though being the "legendary" super saiyan. the entire saiyan race didn't have super saiyans as parents when they were conceived so...
he was pretty much done and in the Cell arc, he wanted Gohan to take over/be the new MC, but fans and staff didn't want him to - and that's also why Gohan feels so lackluster in this one.
Don’t comment if you don’t know what you’re talking about. The fans had nothing to do with gohan as the main character idiot. Toriyama himself has said he didn’t feel gohan was a complete enough character to be the main character. Toriyama freakin killed off vegeta just because the fans didn’t want him to and no he was done after the frieza arc moron
@@mekudu-man3804 Not true. The reason was because Toriyama felt that Gohan wasn't fit for the role of the central protagonist. He toyed with the idea and it clearly shows during the Buy Arc, but in the end he couldn't follow through with it.
I really feel like I Loveeee the Buu Arc more than the Saiyan Arc or even the Namek Arc, but I know that objectively from a narrative structure, the Buu saga is EASILY the worst arc.
Boo Arc Issues: Gohan: went from going toe 2 toe with Cell to being a joke Supreme Kai: scared Piccolo silly and then turned out to be trash Boo: too many transformations into different Boos Uub: Interesting character that is never heard from again
Gohan: Slacked off Supreme Kai: Considering Buu killed most of them... Not that big of a deal, honestly. Buu: The dynamics of the transformations actually made it fun for me. Uub: Foreshadowed. GT was a mess regarding Uub, but Super might have a better chance.
@@252musicplugz2 IMO great saiyaman was lame and then the Z Sword stuff. To go from being the new strongest in the universe to being corny was a loss. I dont skip any of the episodes when i watch though
Fusion and its failure to finish the fight gave the threat of Buu the gravitas it wouldn't otherwise have. This marathon had our heroes gasping for air, for minutes of rest even while facing Buu on the world of the Kais, anything they could get and the Genki Dama is the epitome of cathartic release, after a marathon.
Buu drives me crazy because of his powers. He gets blown to hell over and over and over again but just shakes it off like nothing. All the fights feel low stakes because the more technical "better" Fighter loses ever time cause regen power bullshit
When you think about it, Buu never ran from his fights or had others fight for him. His kid and super forms are always going to be my favorites. Except his fat form, didnt care for it.
@@zenituragaming5043 They gave life to Perfect Cell and he was one boring ass bitch in the original. I'll never doubt TFS's ability to make comedy gold out of trash
Yes this is what I've been waiting for the first time I've seen this I was like wait I got to watch the full series of the anatomy of anime first now I'm finally here
The funny thing is Toriyama has the most freedom during this arc and it's the one people love the least... He just wanted to tell a more light hearted story with cool fights and gags in the end... His editors are responsible for making him focus on more serious plots and intense motivation fueled battles... Super and Dragon ball resemble the buu saga far more than the other arcs... As fans we just have to admit that while we adore the universe Toriyama created we didn't want him driving the narrative of that universe...
When you really think about it, the Buu arc was the most "Toriyama" part of Z. Villains based off folklore and mythology rather than aliens (well they were still aliens but yeah) and a gag-filled story with emphasis on cool moments and character storylines rather than overarching plots.
You know what you are right about the light hearted resemblance Akira Tori Yama chose. And I do like that just a bit more than war and bloodshed. However, it makes sense to mix the two carefully while having fun. That is what makes Dragon Ball awesome. "So Kudos to Mr. Akira Tori Yama no matter what!"
@Sun Wentai 90 No the Buu arc did do its comedy and seriousness well, it just didnt have a plot. Babidi and Buu were some of the gooiest villains in the series yet they still had a threat being the most gory killers in the series.
Toryiama: "I'm going to cook up a nice new story. There's Gohan doing relatable stuff like going to school and meeting girls." AND WHAT ABOUT GOKU? *gives SSJ3* "Then there are Goku and Vegeta's children being friend teaming up with a powerful technique to stop evil" AND WHAT ABOUT GOKU? "Then Gohan finally take back the spotlight..." AND WHAT ABOUT GOKU? "Ah fuck it"
After reading One Piece, specifically the Wano arc, I started to try looking at the Buu arc using the Jo-Ha-Kyū model. What I find is an interesting story. Act 1 is establishing their position after 7 years all the way up to Buu's revival and Vegeta's sacrifice. Act 2 is them preparing for the battle with Goku teaching the kids Fusion and Gohan training with the Z Sword and eventually getting his Ultimate form while Buu transforms into Super Buu. Act 3 is the kids failing to fight Super Buu all the way to Earth's destruction. Act 4 is the final climax from SS3 Goku briefly fighting Kid Buu all the way to the Genki Dama finish. Act 5 is the epilogue from them reuniting on Kami, well... Dende's Lookout and the conclusion of the story with the meeting with Uub. I need to add that Fusion and Ultimate is necessary for the story. It matters because they were power ups given to kids who aren't guided properly by the previous generation to inherit the role of Earth's protector. All that power was supposed to fail and the adults have to clean up their mess and continue nurturing the kids to grow up to be better. It's meant to be a lesson for Goku in order for him to acknowledge that he needs to guide the next generation before passing the role to them. Power means nothing if they don't have the mentality to take on the role. We see this with Gotenks' playful nature and Gohan's arrogance. Potara is there as a consequence for their action. They had to briefly discard their identity, possibly forever, just to clean up their mess. Vegeta revived Buu and Goku didn't kill Buu early. Potara is their punishment for that. Yes, they defused, but they hated the experience. Goku is more open to fusing, but he clearly prefers fighting alone. While Vegeta flat out hates fusing. This is why I think the Broly scene where Vegeta refuses to fuse makes sense. He has been traumatised by the idea of losing his identity, however briefly it may be, so he would need adequate reason for fusing. Try to change your perspective a bit and you'll see a whole new form of art with the Buu arc.
The fact that Buu was a result of magic felt cheap to the extreme. Who cares about space emperors and cyborg menaces when a naked mole rat can suddenly create a creature that vastly outclasses the gods of the universe?
It's funny, the first half of the Buu saga was aces. Basically all the way up to Vegeta's sacrifice. After that I feel like we didn't get what was promised and most of it feels disjointed from what was setup at the start. The Gotenks stuff feels like it could've been trimmed a bit, but ultimately he always felt like a stalling tactic. I think that the arc really should've ended with Gohan as the savior, but Toriyama-san didn't pull the trigger. Ending with Vegetto would've been okay too, but with more of a struggle, but I understand why you wouldn't want to end with fusion in a show about martial arts philosophy. For me, the biggest problem was always the Saiyan saturated in this arc. It really set a bad precedent and I feel Piccolo, who's versed in magic should've played a bigger role, maybe suggesting and trying Mafuba to seal Buu.
I maintain that Vegeta's sacrifice SHOULD have killed Buu or at least a large portion of his power so that the others could finish it without Goku or Vegeta. It would have made Vegeta more meaningful, given him a proper send-off to his arc as a character, and given a conceivable reason how the remaining characters could finish a weakened Buu off.
@@sethsherlock9694 Yeah, I actually kinda wish fusion wasn't introduced into the show so that kid Trunks and Goten would have more development. It would have been great if they and Gohan found a way to actually save everyone and at the end, bring Vegeta back.
@@baseupp12 Its more based on what Toriyama-san felt. He said he didn't feel Gohan was a suitable protagonist at this point and so he went with Goku instead.
I would vote buu saga too, but it's still better then gt and super. They screwed over gohan and piccolo after cell ark. Piccolo is one of my fav characters, then Gohan was till they made him suck.
Problem with Buu saga was the begining, Great saiyaman part ,a new tournament then introduction to Buu, all happening at the same time, too much stuff convoluted.
Kal-El fan 49 but there are some good moments that I liked it: Goku vs Majin Vegeta Vegeta's sacrifice Goku's dialogue before killing Kid Buu And the animation.
Buu starts off as a non intelligent being but as he absorbs others he gains pieces of their intelligence and mind sets meaning his personality is going to change along with it. I love this concept because it brings out an even more conflicted side of the character in which he can't controll his mindset or emotions when in that murderous mindset it also brings up the question whether or not all the murderous actions in his head came from the evil of those in him... Idk I love buu and how he was written
Ultimate Gohan could and should have been a wonderfully mystic lead character, with Goku as a mentor figure much like Master Roshi was in original Dragon Ball!
Nah, I definitley prefer Buu and cell arc over Namek arc. The buu arc is up to this day, the most creative and unique arc of animation I've ever seen. Add to that all the hype within the arc for things such as SSJ3, Gotenks, Vegito, and the emotional weight of characters getting killed and then eventually the planet getting destroyed, it was just a great arc. It felt like there was no hope, the only other time it felt like that was when Cell killed goku and then gohan had to fight cell.
VictoryVick damn after her Spopovich beatdown she kinda doesn't deserve that. but ar the same time she is a little badass who could take it and it would have given Gohan more investment. just imagine it with his line before Super Buu: "Fight you? No, I wanna kill you." it'd be fuckin cold.
@@RacingSnails64 The Spopovich beatdown started too quickly. Gohan taught her how to fly and she'd seen energy blasts first hand, she should've pulled off a kamehameha(seriously, everyone else learned it pretty easily, so why not her) and then have *that* not be enough. It would've helped sell the helplessness of the situation and also justify Vegeta wanting Babidi's powerup.
@@InfernosReaper what do you mean easily? Master roshi took 50 years to create and master it, krillin only barely got it after years of training yamacha proabably got on from krillin in the 5 year gap before the saiyan saga.
@@aTristicionAXA Yamcha learned it back in Dragonball *offscreen* with *no one* actually teaching it to him. Moreover, no one taught Krillin the move either, nor did he train to do it. He didn't even seriously try to do it even once until *after* seeing Yamcha do it, yet mastered it on the first genuine attempt. > We know this because Roshi is genuinely surprised when each of them gets the move down. > So, *no*, Yamcha didn't learn it from Krillin and Krillin didn't spend years training to learn it. Given little time Goku and Krillin spent learning the move, it's likely it didn't take Yamcha that long to figure it out either. > Videl learned how to fly, when none of those 3 could do at the time. There is no reason she wouldn't have the aptitude to figure out how to do an energy blast, which generally requires much less energy control. It's also baffling that it took Roshi so long to make the technique, given how quickly others mastered it with little to no training.
Jeeses99 Tournament of Power? What the fuck? The 21st, 22nd and 23rd Tournaments were a million times better lmao. Also the Black arc from the manga destroys the ToP, I guess you haven’t checked it out.
I think that was the worst and was when the series became stupid and ridiculous. They essentially created an antagonist that could not be killed because you can't cut him in half and you can't just explode him, then had to break the rules of the character to kill him by exploding him after they realized they totally wrote themselves into a wall.
My favourite arc is still the Cell Arc. Even though I understand why to many it's the Frieza Arc. Cell Arc was was almost perfect (no pun intended). Just the Cell Games was a little messy and uninspired idea.
Funny thing toriyama didnt really inted the android cell arc to be what it was shonen jump forced him to change it. Kinda like the 4th hokage was gonna be a dog. Those authors need there heads examined
