i often dont love the whole "if youre homophobic its probably bc youre gay" narrative but i dont think ive seen anyone exude that energy more than mark driscoll
If there's anyone I believe is closeted, it's him. That there pole routine got him so hot and bothered that he couldn't sleep. And I think he compared the performer to a woman not just because he's a misogynist, but also because if he tells himself "well that got to me because the guy was acting like a woman," he can keep denying that he is, in fact, attracted to other men.
Most of the time homophobia comes from a need to conform to an ingroup, like a church community. If a person in that community is closeted, any homophobia is more likely to be directed inward, which hurts them more than anyone else. Logically speaking, directing it outward is the worst way to deflect suspicion, given that society considers that a red flag for being closeted.
It’s hard to say because I’ve had the displeasure of interacting with men who just hate women so much that it seems like a possibility. It’s hard to imagine someone is attracted to people they hate and think are beneath them but they’re out there. That being said Driscolls preoccupation with men does add some sus.
It's an excuse people use but that's not what the passage is about. It's supposed to be a way to remedy personal wrongs, not to cover up illegal activity or people abusing anyone.
This verse is to address interpersonal sin, not literal crime. The law of the land is to report sexual abuse to secular authorities, so that’s what people should do.
Veteran stripper of over 25 yrs....THIS IS NOT EVEN SOMETHING YOU WOULD SEE AT POLYMPICS!!!! Flag stands are 97% done by males due to the extreme upper body strength needed. Acrobatics involving poles are ancient and exist in many cultures. And the sword swallowing us a circus thing that involves discipline and practice. To do both at the same time is more impressive than anyone in tht audience knows. Ironically, I think this dude's xtianity is what made him choose the martial arts paths he did, as acrobatics and Brazilian JiuJitsu do not have a meditative or possibly Eastern Religion basis unless you add it yourself.
Thanks for adding this! I've known folks who do these types of things (individually, not together) so I had a basic idea of how impressive this performance was.. but no ability to really put into context. :D
Could acrobatics at least put you into a flow state like the whirling dervishes? It’s not exactly as introspective as meditation but the flow state is similar in loss-of-ego focusing sorta thing is it’s kinda eastern flavored…
Plus also it's to show that it's not a slight of hand magic trick and hiding somewhere in your clothing. At least according to the Friendly Atheist and the research he did on this.
(for the record I'm a liberal atheist and i really don't care, but) thinking from an UBER conservative perspective, i believe the shirt could have been omitted from the routine entirely. why come out in it just to wear it for a whole 2 seconds before taking it off in a flashy way? It's only practical purpose was to be removed. seems superfluous in a strictly athletic performance...
The weirdest thing for me is that the christian believe is to treat the body as a temple but to me risking certain death and bleeding out in a horrific way is not really the way to go. For me him swallowing a sword and going up a pole is already high risk and then the sliding down maneuver and stopping literally inches from death is very contradictory to treating your body as a temple. This for me goes beyond a show of strength but past the point of craziness to achieve a "wow factor"
My guess is that the peril is partially illusory. When he inverts and slides down, he has the sword about halfway out, so there's probably a much larger margin of error, like a head and neck length, just in case. Still impressive athleticism, though.
I've made this comment before, but the problem with Mark Driscoll is not just him, it's the audience of thousands of guys who didn't laugh him off the stage the moment he started his weird improv routine about Jezebel spirits and Asherahs and stripper poles
As a straight man, nothing about that performance inspired the Jezebel spirit in me. I just thought it was a really cool stunt. If the performer was doing that at a carnival, renaissance faire, or a similar venue, I would have been happy to see it in person.
this is one of those skills i just don't understand on a developmental level. other stuff you get it wrong and wrong and wrong and get better and better until you finally get it right. But like obviously he got that last trick right the first time and hasn't messed up since.... This is one of those "you only mess up once" situations 😰
@@calliemyersbuchanan6458the way they practice is to do progressively longer swords. As for the dropping part, they work their way up to it, and also practice the acrobatics without the sword. Don’t get me wrong; it’s dangerous and I sure won’t be mastering this particular skill. But it is possible to practice elements of it in a way that reduces risk.
This situation really exposes the fact that Mark will use "Jezebel spirit" to blanket decry anything he doesn't like as evil. Who needs scripture when you have marks "discernment'.
"But he had a sparkly shirt! And he stripped it off! And there was a pole!" Sure, Mark, let's get you into that nice new wraparound jumper. That's it. Don't worry. You can always hug yourself in it.
That sword performance is insane and terrifying. When he turned himself upside down, I had an inkling that he'd do the drop, but didn't believe he'd actually do it. Mark Driscoll lives in a world where there are demons behind every corner. It was only a matter of time before the majority of reasonable Christians reject that kind of nonsense from him. Whoever invites someone like him to their conference deserves the controversy and chaos that kind of person brings around them. -- On an unrelated and minor note, and feel free to ignore it, but I find it to look a bit odd when Taylor is facing straight towards the camera and Drew is turned almost completely to the side. Similar, but mirrored angles might be better. Either way, it's not a deal breaker, I just thought I'd mention it.
He reveals so much Frollo from Hunchback energy right there. He is so unable to divorce the association between pole dancing and stripping that he can't see it as something other than "hypersexual." And that's on his own damn self. And I'm not surprised he got a huge applause because so many men probably have a similar perspective. I was surprised by some of the performer's choices (like the removal of the vest), but he is also a performer. As someone who spent their young life in dancing, gymnastics, and musical theatre, those are stylistic choices and aren't inherently sexual. So, being able to only see them as such says more about that individual than anything the person did on stage. And what he did was incredibly impressive.
"YEAH! WE ALL FELT A LITTLE JOLLY IN THE JOCKSTRAP BECAUSE HE WAS BEHAVING LIKE A WOMAN AND CERTAINLY NOT FROM ANY FEELINGS TOWARD OTHER MEN WE'VE BEEN DENYING HAVING FOR YEARS"
As a poler, I'm going to be pedantic and point out this is a Chinese pole. It's rubberized to accommodate movements in that genre, which allows for wearing clothing. If you wore a bikini on a Chinese pole you'd tear your skin off. These are different modalities, like ballet vs tap. Chinese pole has been around for centuries.
I attended Mars Hill for like a decade and have since deconstructed and turned away from all of that. I agree 100% with your take that this was all done for spectacle to promote and market a new book/sermon series/campus etc. I've seen it many many times before. It's funny because I remember entire sermons in the past where he would say verbatim "I would never write a book with my name on it, or have a website with my name as the domain, because it's not about me it's ALL about Jesus". I bought it back then, but it's just so obvious that this whole thing is about self promotion and power. Thank you for making this content. Keep up the great work and you have my full support.
I visited Mars Hill only once in 2007, when I was on a holiday in the US. I had not seen or heard anything that crazy from him at that point - but also I wonder if I was just too deep in the church bubble back then. Now that I don't go to church anymore, I shudder if I think about those times too much. After leaving all that, it is indeed all so clear to see - it is all self-promotion, especially when they say it's not...
I would not be the least bit surprised if that was the case, though I am skeptical that a lot of things are authentic and not scripted or premeditated to generate attention and ultimately, profit, e.g., reality shows, pro sports, pretty much any competition-based content, public figures' "beefs" with one another...
This church is down the road from where I grew up, and not only does this not surprise me, but Drew talking about being scared at the booing...I've seen them do MUCH scarier things. James River Church is one of the more terrifying churches most people have never heard of in my opinion.
Hey, I would love to know more about this. You could write or video a story, IDC, I just want the bad apples to get bad attention and hear the crazy stuff.
This whole thing has been hilarious. I think Driscoll's problem was with the sword swallowing more than any other part but doesn't want to say it and just assumed everyone else would get it.
@@TheIronDonkey I understand, you're just doing your civic duty by spreading awareness. I do hope you've sought therapy for the traumatic assault upon your olfactory receptors🥺
This is way more impressive than the tank. Edit: I wonder if the reasoning behind taking the top off is to show the audience that he isn't hiding the sword down his shirt or something.
Yes, and also to show that it’s a solid object and not a full on fake prop sword that collapses in on itself. The sword leaves subtle outline under his skin so part of taking off his shirt is so the audience can see that. It’s too subtle to show up on videos shot this far away, though.
As someone who grew up big into purity culture I understand why it couldve been construed as having a sexual element by someone super Evangelical but it's clearly got artistic value well beyond that.
I notice that evangelicals don’t understand or appreciate artistic value or metaphors. Especially when they always say every song or artist are demonic.
Yes! I hoped one of my exchristian peeps would talk about this literal circus. The man did lick the sword first, so maybe that agitated certain attendees. 🤣
@@Beachedwhales237 Seriously, though, would you want to be in a room with that many ragey, yelling "brothers in Christ" after Driscoll spoke? I'm a woman and I find that energy kind of terrifying.
The sword performances was Amazing! Also, for the record, it's easier for a performer to slide down a pole with skin than clothes on. Also, the sword performer Alex Magala goes to Driscoll's church. Here's hoping he finds a better church.
Depends on the type of pole! Silicone poles (such as the one used in the video) allow you to grip with clothes, so he didn’t really need to remove his top. The traditional sport and dance poles are made of stainless steel or chrome, and with those you are quite literally unable to grip with clothes on, grip comes from the skin sticking to the pole.
Same, it's hard to believe that it was a complete surprise, which would indicate that either no research was done to view his aesthetic and no discussion was had, or the performer strayed wildly from the agreed-upon stunts. Neither is very plausible.
As someone who was a stripper in her 20s (I'm in my mid 40s now, long retired for over two decades), the "taking his shirt off like a female stripper" comment made me laugh so hard. I needed that laugh. Does he realise he is a comedy act now?
I've seen multiple videos on this topic and everytime they show the video of Driscoll talking about the Jezebel spirit invading the conference I get sooooo much second hand embarrassed 😳 bruh this is criiiiiiiiiinge 😬
Even if its been talked about, I personally, would still love to hear you guys talk about it. The level of thought and respect in these videos are incomparable.
If Mark really had such a problem with James River's leadership why'd he agree to speak in the first place?? Since he's such a man of integrity and all. 🙄 Wonder if the women's conference will give us any goodies again this year lol. Last year we got regrowing toes, it'll be real hard to top it. Guess we'll see come October!
It's a *church* conference?! Hilarious! Much more appropriate for a circus performance. I'm old. Church wasn't like that in the 60s, especially a mainline protestant congregation. Men wore suits. Women wore their nicest clothes. Emotional restraint, calm, serious, and thoughtful demeanor, was the rule.
I mean impressive sure, but a bunch of "ultra straight" guys getting together at an evangelical church to watch a shirtless dude climb a pole and dthroat a sword is slightly... questionable.
26:32 dude! Right after y'all showed the video of the performance, I said to my wife "they showed the whole performance unlike everyone else claiming it was a strip tease. I love how they give context"
First of all, giiirl Jezebel could never do that, that's highly impressive :D! But also as you say - it's the pole that makes this inappropriate?? What about firefighters, circus performers, radio tower maintenance guys? Or was it the fact that he was shirtless - well in my country (Finland) men (and women) get fully naked together and sit in a steamy sauna hitting themselves with small branches of the birch tree... I wonder what he would say about that :D.
The way i click on the videos yall put out... Im amazed that growing up christian, and being an adult now how some of my fave content creators are an atheist couple lmfaooo. Yall have helped guide me through my deconstruction with these videos so much! i adore and respect yalls opinions, thoughts, facts, and knowledge on these topics so much. You've helped me become strong in my own thoughts and beliefs around Christianity which has, in the wildest way, helped me get closer to my 'still religious family'. I can see now both the beauty and ugliness of any religion & be grateful how its shaped me but now know it no longer serves good in my life. Keep up the good content, i cant wait to see more from you guys🧡
p.s. Mark Driscoll is the type of white christian AMERICAN man that scares the shit outta me lol. Hes the type to welcome handmaids tale scenarios and be one of the top leaders while secretly being closeted lol in my opinion
The Bible not only says women should cover their heads, but it also explicitly says men should not. "Every man who prays or prophesies with his head covered dishonors his head, but every wife who prays or prophesies with her head uncovered dishonors her head, since it is the same as if her head were shaven... For a man ought not to cover his head, since he is the image and glory of God, but woman is the glory of man." 1 Corinthians 11:4-5, 7 Mark Driscoll has a Jezebel spirit confirmed 😂
@@powbobs it’s just a good way to poke holes in Christians’ arguments because the only source most actually care about is the Bible. The only way you can get them is by playing their own game, and the judgmental ones are all hypocrites so it’s pretty easy. It’s in reference to what she said in the end about Mark “acting like a woman” according to the Bible, which is exactly what he just accused the performer of.
It gives gender essentialism and that's my number one critique with it. Apart from lacking ANYTHING to do with yknow, God, it's attributing all of these things into their tagline = the "man God created you to be." Okay, what about the artistic men? Gamer men? Nerdy men? Sweet and gentle men? My former veterinarian, who treated my departed kitty like a little baby under his care, who gave gentle dorky dad vibes? It's absolutely a pathetic conference because it says all of this = real men and real men hobbies. It's the Male Gaze in full action, a circlejerk of over compensating testosterone in a world of perceived 'soyboys'. Irony is, if they actually met Jesus on the streets, they too would call him a soyboy.
@@SeanWinters I know quite a few. They're men and not interested in weaponry or conventionally masculine hobbies. Very sweet, docile men who love arts... Some even fashion
Yeah The Power Team is a group of Christian evangelists, based in Dallas, Texas. They incorporate their preaching with displays of strength and martial arts skills. They were founded in the late 1970s by John Jacobs.
His throat is hoarse because he was up till 1am "praying"?... In his hotel room at the evangelical men's conference? 🤔 the only praying he was doing was praying nobody walked in with a camera.
That performance was more like a circus type performance than anything else. It was awesome. It was very artistic which would denote a more artistic vibe than a uber masculine vibe. Just gonna add here that the performance was extremely masculine...the upper body strength was incredible... Yet 'god' forbid blokes enjoy an artistic performance. Much preferred it than the tank...which was a symbol of violence. There's a reason why women find it extremely hard to have positions of authority in a world that worships a solitary male god who rejects the idea of a Goddess.. a female deity, equal in power and influence.
Double videos this week? I aint complaining lol Edit: also after watching, Driscoll is 1000% grifting. Like I'm waiting on his own masculinity conference or whatever to pop up now.
I feel like Mark Driscoll forgot the part in the bible where David, "a man after God's own Heart" danced nekkid the streets before God and God was pleased... Just saying
I'm glad Drew said how frightening all of those audience boos and shouts sounded, because I was thinking the exact same thing! A stadium full of Evangelical men is such a frightening thought.
As a trans woman, I love monster trucks and tanks and all that shit. I think that you can have community driven events without the toxic masculine judeo christian values.
@21:45 "but Elijah was a big strong man who spoke out against Ahab and against Jezebel before taking it to them privately or before talking to any other Christians", none of Ahab, Elijah or Jezabel met any Christians. If the story have any basis in fact the events took place centuries earlier than any Christians
Just started (at 6:41 ) but sword swallowers often take off their shirt (or wear just a costume bra) so you can see the outline of the sword through their skin. It’s not a prominent protrusion/outline, so not visible on a video like this or really any video that’s not quite up close, but it’s there. They do this to prove it’s a real sword (or at least a sword shaped object that is actually one solid piece) and not a fake one that collapses inside of itself. So he’s not taking off his shirt for no reason or to strip tease, it’s just to prove he’s actually swallowing the sword and actually performing the act. Oh! Edited real quick cause I meant to also say that y’all were obviously right that showing his big strong muscles during this show specifically about big strong men doing big strong man muscle things is of course another aspect as why the shirt comes off. There were also two men in practically bikini bottoms wrestling each other as one of the other acts there and I mean…if I was forced to say which one was more homoerotic than the other….it certainly wouldn’t be the single guy with most of his clothes ON defying gravity while having a giant sword shoved down his throat… 🤷🏼♀️
@@FrostAndTheForest 100%!! I’ve never seen the drop head down from the top like that before in a sword routine (not that I watch a lot of sword routines but you get what I mean lol) and my jaw literally dropped. He’s amazing at what he does, is an open christian, and is also open about using his talents as part of his testimony (“look how much I trust god to protect me” type spiel) from what else I’ve read about him. Driscoll just didn’t like the lil tingly feelings he felt behind his zipper and the 🗡️ to 🍆 switcharoo thoughts that popped into his head so he just *had* to pick a fight and the dude jezebel for being too tempting lmao 😬🤭 I’m glad the pastor putting on the event (even though I honestly think the whole thing is pretty eye-roll inducing, but that’s a totally different thing) cut Driscoll off and pulled him off stage for bullying the dude, even though he was fkn *booed* for doing so, which is just wild af especially since that *same crowd was cheering for the swallower during his act!!!* I hope the poor dude got a lil side “sorry you had to deal with that pos “pastor” and his cronies after your amazing act” bonus compensation 💸 because he definitely deserves it!
@@5taceydaisy Yep... I do not support shouting the "if you're homophobic then you're probably gay" at everyone - many people are just terrible humans in this regard and those things are not connected in any way. But sometimes... sometimes someone like him is so just unhinged that it makes you think... I am a straight female and that was not "tempting", that was just really awesome :D. And secondly you bring up an excellent point - this crowd was so confusing and confused! Crowd manipulation is actually terrifyingly easy at events like this.
It reminds me of a picture in my high school that I thought was a couple cuddling and kissing for most of my time there. Actually took a look at it senior year, and it was a wrestling match
@@FrostAndTheForest oh absolutely I agree, the “if you’re scared of gay stuffs, then you’re obviously super super gay!!” is just so overused and often not true -they’re just aholes lol- but yeah…calling out the sword swallower specifically a Jezebel, and not the two practically naked men physically wrestling with one another… got lots of question for ya now Mark…looootsa questions lmao. I was also just in absolute art and amazement, not aroused, lol. And you’re totally right, it is really scary. How easy mob mentality can catch hold. Especially in a crowd like this, where hyper masculinity is like the peak of greatness and then this big leader comes out and now says “if you liked that act then you’re enticed by Jezebel and a super super wimpy gay soy boi who can’t sit with us” …like yeah, that can have a lot of power in a place like that and can lead to… well, I think we’ve all seen what horrible hate crimes have come from similar situations. It’s terrifying. (PS: I hope I didn’t sound like I was endorsing saying that if you’re homophobic then you’re probably gay as like a general statement in my earlier comment, because I definitely don’t like people using that as a catchall, as bisexual woman myself. I was definitely using it for this specific Driscoll tantrum only, and I hope I didn’t offend you or anyone else.)
Under fear of sitting down between two barstools, I can see both sides of this. OT1H, That was an incredible circus performance. Combining the inherent danger of sword swallowing with the added risk of both climbing up and dropping down that pole is inspired to the point of foolhardy. I mean, that is some serious physical coordination and risk-taking there. Much respect to the skills of the performer! OTOH, No one, and I mean NO ONE, should've been surprised that the performance would cause a backlash at a CONSERVATIVE CHURCH RALLY FOCUSED ON MASCULINITY!!! Both sword-swallowing and pole-acrobatics have Freudian undertones, downplayed in circus, overt in burlesque. This is an audience continually warned about the dangers of a hypersexualized popular culture, and trained to find corrupting innuendo in the most innocuous children's media. That large segments of this tucked-shirts and jean-skirts audience would get their underthings in a twist over this performance is practically a self-fulfilling prophesy. I can't help but think that this performance was booked for this conference intentionally to troll or to stir the pot. Considering that tank stunt previously, this is an intentional marketing scheme.
Lindell found out real quickly just how fast that leopard will eat your face. It's sad and funny at the same time how they (the big Eva manly men Christians) love Mark when he's "calling out" gays or single moms or SAHD or anything else that threatens their sense of identity, but can't stand being on the receiving end of that treatment from Mark.
This is not the same kind of pole, they use in strip clubs. This is called a chinese pole. And it is mainly used in circus performances. It is a quite different discipline than classic pole dance. It is so crazy and impressive what these Performers are able to do. I love it. ❤
The hottest club this year is called STRONGER (men's conference). Club promoter Marc Frisk-all has gone all out. This club has EVERYTHING: twinks, bears, tanks, closeted bottoms, a Bible that belches when you open it, human Asherah poles... You know, it's that thing where fifteen little people stand on top of each other while a drag queen who looks like Tammy Faye Baker sings a Harry Styles cover
That clip at the beginning, of the church Norris impersonator driving a tank, is the most embarrassing thing regarding church conferences I’ve EVER witnessed. Thank goodness I was question this type of stuff for a long time, and deconverted before I ever got a chance to go to one of those. This type of thing would have actively made me not want to go ever again. It looks ridiculous. It looks like something I would see a bunch of little boys playing at, except at a conference where I’m expecting men to be talking about more mature subjects so they can learn to be better men. And, no, I’m not against that kind of spectacle. Just, seeing it at what is supposed to be a Christian men’s conference is jarring. Also, the guns. Wow. Apparently, god ***loves*** war. Well… um… *looks at the entire old testament* EDIT: the reaction of the conference afterwards… holy gods, that’s terrifying.
As a Catholic, I enjoy it when Evilgelicals fight. The sword guy seems like a really good guy. I actually emailed him to pitch a screenplay I wrote about a theft of the Shroud of Turin. He would be a good fit for my protagonist.
Just started the video and don't know where it's going, but I just love how Drew looks at Taylor. Just so pure and heartwarming when listening about utter garbage people...
this is SUCH a bizarre situation bc it IS kinda weird from a historical perspective that these sects of Christianity engage so much with spectacle and entertainment. Like, tanks rolling over cars?? Bodybuilders eating swords? Sort of strange for the setting, and I could see some Christians taking issue with it. But Driscoll’s problem instead being that it’s “stripper-like Jezebel activity” is even funnier. Like my guy went a WHOLE different direction with the criticism, completely left field
Exactly. He could've taken issue with the entirety of the whole conference being one SuperBowl Half-Time Special event with absolutely no religious value to it................ He still attended, which means he's still okay with everything else lol (I have no issue with men being entertained by BMX, tanks, rodeo, sport etc, I just don't think it's appropriate for a church-funded conference.)
I just want to say that I appreciate how knowledgeable and intellectual you both are on the topics you speak about. I’ve never been religious so when you explain things it’s very easy to comprehend because of how well read you are. Love the education I get from your videos thanks!
