MAXIMISE ECHO GAINS! Substat & Leveling Optimization | Wuthering Waves! 

on the +25 upgrade do you go for crit rate and crit damage or reroll and for the +5 do you try to roll for a decent crit sub stat or do you settle with say 6.3% crit rate

@@ninuh234 focusing a high good stat roll seems to start to be extremely picky... you're playing with your mats at the end i don't think it's a good idea. only for last late game min maxing i could see that being acceptable. however it can help me decide if i what pc is better than other etc..

I Emphasize way more on CR than CD personally, i trash even piece with CD substat, i Only focus CR. i only start Keeping CD piece when i'm close to finish my gear and than the CR is starting to be way too high compared to CD. and even at this point i'm usually not really happy if it doesn't roll CR after. I like going +15 on 3 cost as u said, but also +10 on 4 cost with CR (i only go +5 on CD 4cost tho). Just because i'm really not starving when it come to Echo exp, and because you're not really losing any tuner, you can't "lose" tuner by doing "this action" instead of "that one". Any ticket to gamba a substat is 10 tuner, you just decide on which echo you put it. And considering you can +25 echo even without tuning its other stat, that's not a big problem to spread the roll. and at the same time i'm also ok to +10 CR 4cost because the increase in exp for echo is not that high at this point. and than if it roll CR on this echo i'm done, where if i don't try i have to wait for another. basicaly i do 2 roll every CR echo, where if i only do +5 i do one roll every CR echo meaning it take twice more time for the same amount of roll. So because of those reason i'm ok to take the little exp loss.

@@ninuh234 you mean going to +25 from 20? Or are you talking about the 4 cost echo with cr/cd as the main stat? I don't completely understand the first question so I'll answer the second one first. Crit sub stat is good and it doesn't matter if it's a high roll or a low roll early in the game. You can settle with a low roll and be done with it. If you keep being too picky then you won't be able to build other characters and waste a lot of resources in the process (also mentioned by the person above). So my advice would be to settle even if it's a low roll because resources are scarce in the game at least for now.

@@Devil-sama... first question was worded badly i was just trying to ask if you scrap plus +25 echoes if you dont roll both crits but now thinking about it im not sure if thats viable

Statistically since ur earlier rolls are good you have a much higher chance hitting trash later on haha

@@KokkyGachas Getting one of them is okay, but two and both flat stat is just too cruel 🥲

dude same. had a level 20, 4 cost with god roll and 25 ended up flat def. 2 decent level 20, 1 costs ended with flat hp and def at 25. fuck that

​@@fiamma_23 but if you already have good first 3 substat rolls on that certain echo, i think it would be better to just stick to lvl 20 for the mean time since you already got what you wanted/needed. lvl 20 to 25 exp cost is just insane... 60k worth of exp to waste. getting crit dmg/rate in your first 3 rolls is already good. would be ideal to stop at lvl 20 since you already have the good ones. but if you have a lot of excess echo exp materials to use, then you do you. but 60k exp is like = 12 gold/premium echo exp materials

@@Vain1 I'm maxing out Echo that are transferable to my 2nd possibly even 3rd team. That's where extra resources gonna be used anyway, right?

Thanks alot for the comment! The reason why the probability is looking at the cumulative chance is because we are trying to work with the goal in mind. If we only consider the probability to hit a crit stat, it will favour the later rolls as there will always be less stats left in the pool to roll from. However, this does not mean we will eventually end up with double crit or even double crit+atk. By looking at the cumulative chance, we can decide when to stop based on the odds you eventually get a piece with stats you want provided if you hit a desired stat on the next roll vs the exp lost. If the odds are low even if you hit a desired stat, you will want to backtrack and get a desired stat on the previous roll instead and recycle the piece. If you wish to look at whether to stop even if you hit the crit, or if you hit then miss, you will need to cross reference 2 tables to reach a conclusion.

@@KokkyGachas I see. Thanks for the explanation.

Nope there is enough collected data by a collective of TCs to show there is no bias in the specific substat only the ranges

​@@KokkyGachas What about the main stats? Are they also equally distributed?

should i lean on basic attack % over resonance liberation % when talking about substats

I think you are mistaken. The total number of stats is not always 13 and reduces with every roll as what we are doing is without replacement (no dupes). The scenarios listed are where you have yet to hit either crit rate or crit dmg which is logical since if you hit crit rate/crit dmg (what u are looking for) you will naturally continue. The probabilities are trying to help us determine when it is no longer feasible to continue rolling having not yet hit the stats we are looking for. As for the number of desired outcomes, u made the mistake of simply multiplying the outcomes by 2 without considering double crit outcomes that are shared and should be subtracted which gives the desired outcomes listed in the video. Hope this explain things. Note: It should be 9 for the first scenario I prolly copied it down without checking the number of stats. Thanks for spotting.

​@@KokkyGachas Actually, I realized after going through it again that you are calculating the probability of hitting the target after a roll has been completed, essentially you are analyzing each step and what's the probability of hitting your target. Where as I did it from the end goal perspective. For example at 7:00 you talked about CR and CD must be present. I looked at what's the probability of hitting the criteria if you only unlock 2 rolls, 3 rolls etc. If you unlock only 2 rolls, then both rolls must be either be CR or CD, an avg of 78 tries, 334,125 echo exp and 1,098 tuners. 3 rolls, where you are allowed 1 undesired roll, with avg of 26 tries, 287,100 echo exp and 555 tuners. 4 rolls, avg of 13 tries, 316,400 echo exp, 376 tuners. 5 rolls, avg of 7.8 tries, 385,020 echo exp, 288 tuners. As you mentioned, we get alot more echo exp compared to tuners, so it is actually desirable to go all the way to +25, provided the end condition can still be fulfilled, as it has the least amount of tuner usage, shortest "chain", but highest amount of exp needed. In 1.1 however, we are getting tuner synthesis, so that will probably change the optimal path then. Also, for the desired outcome, I was reading off the wrong column. Your numbers are right. 5 roll > 2C1*11C4 + 2C2*11C3 = 825 4 roll > 2C1*10C3 + 2C2*10C2 = 285 3 roll > 2C1*9C2 + 2C2*11C1 = 81 2 roll > 2C1*8C1 + 2C2*11C0 = 17 1 roll > 2C1*8C0 = 2

Tuner lost is linear unlike echo exp and hence should be less of a concern for going to +25. This is also alleviated by the tuner synthesis upcoming.

It’s 60% now. I think they ninja patched it a few days ago.

@@KokkyGachasI disagree. The guy is right, especially with 3 cost echoes. The release of end game gearing (echoes) early on in this state of the game comes with a few upside and a lot of downsides. The good thing being able to prep early on at the cost of hefty amounts of tubes, shell credits, tuners and time grinding echoes with 3 cost being the most pain in the ass to get only to get suboptimal substats with a substanstial amount of spread and when that occurs, the echo is deemed unusable by many with no way to get anything out of it but feed it with lots of lost exp and 70% tuners gone down the drain.

@@Z-r0grav1ty The decision between going to 25 vs staying 20 has always been whether you can reap enough benefits from it. The same can be said for most things we purchase where there's always a trade off. Why upgrade your phone now instead of waiting 2 years for a better one at the same price?

⁠@@KokkyGachasI mean I’m no expert but I feel like the difference there is there is no theoretical “best” phone, therefore in most cases waiting for a “better” deal with a phone doesnt really make sense because there will always be a better option later on, whereas in this case there is a definite “best case scenario” with echoes

If i dont get crit %or attack %on lvl10 yeah trashing it but ult + or skill+ is a good combo for crit

i usually lvl up to +15, if there is no crit and at least something seem ok like atk%/Dmg bonus, move on

​​@@blackblaze4830Nah. Damage type % get extremely diluted and are always worse than Attack% and even flat attack. Their should almost always be considered undesirable unless the character has 50% of it in their damage profile. Like Normal Attack for Encore, or Skill for Yinlin. They're still worse than flat attack as such, but pretty close

@@Jugement im talking about skill and ult % its give so much damage im aaying this cause i tested 25% ult damage to 0% and with just pure attack the difference is really big with the the 25% ult damage give 10k extra damage than with just attack% it just scales your base damage but a small amount not saying its bad but getting ult% is really good on burst ult like rover and yinlin (note teated this damage out put on rover cause rover has instant damage burst its not like yinlin)combo this with jianxin that gives you extra 25% ult damage your getting a lot of burst damage with just one ult

But you can increase crit rate with food buff and not crit damage afaik.

@@ababil2408 cant use food buffs in tower, tower is more important because holograms can be done later but tower cant, you'll lose astrites

​@@TarnishedddddYeah cr is better overrall really and just stack your atk to deal more dmg so like Cr - Elem% - Atk% - Cdmg

@@ababil2408 can u for every game mode?

@@gachacaspa sadly, no. I just realized

Isn’t that common sense?

@@miscellaneous7777 did u even watch the video? how does knowing the probability to be better at +10 common sense? mr. einstein

It depends on your criteria. If you are only looking for CR and CD, if you don't see at least one of them by the time you roll your second substat (+10) then you move on. However this changes when you are looking for 3 good substats or more. For example, if you want 2 of the rolls to be CR and CD and one of the rolls to be ATK%/ATK/ER then it is desirable to go all the way to +25, provided you can fulfill the requirements every step of the way. What I mean is, say you rolled flat HP and flat DEF for your first two roll, you should still try unlocking the 3rd substat, as it is still possible for you to get CR, CD, and one of the ATK5/ATK/ER rolls. But if the 3rd substat turns out to be HP%, then you stop and recycle. So essentially, you always unlock 3 substats first and see if the requirements can still be fulfilled, continue if yes, stop if no.

U need to look at the dev’s pov too, not just as consumer. They need to make money and the echo system is their golden duck. If u can just simply grind to level the echo, how are they going to make more money from you.

@@akmalahmad2365 huh? Dude, they aren't making money via the echoes at all.

@@jasonj5579 bro no way. Haha. If they dont why are they charging money to recharge energy? And they are also selling tubes and dice pack.

@@akmalahmad2365 have u played other similar games like Genshin or HSR or TOF? Similar to genshin's artifacts or HSR relics, players do grind alot to get the best stat items as much as possible, but non spend money just to grind especially if you already have decent relics or artifacts. The main source of money spending comes from the characters and weapons. Similarly, nobody spends money for the sake of echoes. Take me for example, I have pretty decent echoes and never spent to get those echoes. I only spent for limited chars n weapons.

its a gacha game +_+

CD piece is much easier to get than CR one😂 farming cr piece is a nightmare

@@gautampattnaik7728 yeah but to find both the sub-stat crit is more difficult 🥲

Yes

@@KokkyGachas i found it, 1 cost echos always come with hp second mainstat

@@3nt3r-t4inm3nt_tel-e-vision oh i thought u are referring to 1x as in 10+% substat rolls lol

Building full +25 echo sets will always use an extremely small amount of tuners compared to exp. Many people including me are opting for less sets and more recycles to min max substats which will expand tuners faster.