From a very young age(3-4) I fantasized. As my life got more chaotic, I went deeper into them, removing myself from the world around me. It was often the only place I felt loved and cared for. In my fantasies, I was respected and admired. I didn’t have to prove my worth. I think I got addicted to them. It became the only place I wanted to be. I took low paying, boring jobs so I could be in my fantasy world and look busy. I’m now 66. All those stressors are gone now. I’m left with nothing to show for my life. All I did was survive. To what end, I really don’t know.
This is called Maladaptive daydreaming - it is more common than you think and a coping mechanism for a lot of people esp those who have had troubled childhoods
That is exactly what my ex said. He is a porn addict but the porn addiction is just a symptom of his avoidant personality disorder. thank you for your comment. It’s helpful for me to see someone with the same thoughts and feelings as he had.
You are alive you are not dead you can help others please don't think that your life has come to an end the fantasy kept you alive now you can help other people
It seems to me that our culture fosters these kinds of disorders to a much greater degree than in the past. Media, advertising, and also educational philosophy encourages a preoccupation with success, prestige, being special, glamour and so on.
@@oftin_wong over time. Our present culture in the West has some distinct features... though it may be we’re just in the decadent period of a civilisational cycle.
I have these fantasies. They are so embarrassing. I only now realise what they are. It's a way of pumping up a very low self esteem or more accurately to get love and admiration that you didn't have when you were young. Basically feeling very unpopular and looking for that still. I always hate it. I know when I have these fantasies of achieving things it means I won't achieve them as I am satisfyong this need in my mind instead of putting in the effort. It really feels like the devils are laughing at me in this way. Mocking me with these fantasies. But I have alot of empathy. I also think these fantasies are a way of soothing childhood pain. I mean children fantasise till a certain age and then it becomes unacceptable.
You are very right, that there's some oscillation there, between the grandious and the vulnerable traits in NPD. I too observed it within the same clients, and I'm very fascinated to hear it's not just random observations. We know all disorders fall on a spectrum, and no single person is frozen in one state of their disorder, it does however seem peculiar seeing the switch in such a drastic way. Thank you as always for your insight, I'm a silent viewer but thought I should drop a comment to let you know how much your takes on different topics are appreciated!
isn't this called 'hovering' and the vulnerability is an unconscious tactic to keep the dysfunction in place or in control and blind the subject? Kind of 'borderline' push/pull behaviour? Btw, I don't have a degree...so take my observations with some kilos of salt.
SoPsyched I’m no professional but I have noticed both in my most recent ex. He would perceive my parents providing leniency with me as an act of kindness upon him. He’d balk about making $20-$50/hr but he’d have a two hour work order for an entire week. He always leaves out inconvenient parts of the stories to make himself appear like he’s in the right but all I’d usually need is one sentence which switches the dynamic. He’s also very introverted, extremely sensitive & inhibited by shame if I was to point out how something hurt my feelings. “You constantly remind me of everything I do wrong” is a common line of his, yet he’d also say “I don’t know how someone who loves me this much could find me so disinteresting” & often mentioned how I ask way more questions than anyone he’s met.
@@GeorgeAAspros it's great you noticed the behavioural patterns in him. Did you ever try to communicate your observings? He doesn't necessarily need to have this specific kind of personality disorder. But then again - the lable alone means nothing, so whether he has it or not, doesn't make a difference. What does, is, taking appropriate actions and seeking out help. Thank you for sharing your experience!
This spotlighted a past relationship with a seemingly sweet-n-shy yet somehow troubled gal but who more likely wrestled with v-npd or perhaps discouraged-bpd. Even so, instead of remembering the relationship as a vexing casualty, I will now view it as a valuable learning tool. Thanks, very well worth watching again.
Grandiose narcissist gal can act sweet and shy though... feel like female narcissists do that innocent act it’s more valuable to society and makes them invisible to normal everyday people. Everyone thinks she is some sort of angel but noo she scored highly extroverted and highly disagreeable on big five scale.
I come from a severe narcissistic family tree and discovered this at age 35 (3 years ago). My take on 'vulnerable' is that it is way more deceiving and creates co-dependents (me) who learned to listen to drama 24/7. The pain and recovery is done by really recognizing the drama and learn to not get caught up into this type of manipulation. It takes a while and can be done. A good book for me was 'Complex-PTSD from surviving to thriving'. It saved my life!
I would love to see whether there are certain differences in brain structure and function regarding those with a diagnosis of NPD and sub-clinical presentations. Thanks! That was fascinating!
It so happens that someone very close to me is afflicted with verbose redemption fantasies about an abusive father whose "ass she kicked" and who was "afraid of her". None of the fantasies she spins are true or even possible. 😔 This was particularly interesting to me. It's way more than sad what abuse can do to a person. Thank you, Dr. Grande.
i wonder if any of them fantasize about becoming psychopaths? I don't think psychopaths think they're warriors of righteousness. They just do stuff because they want the outcome. Like "I want those shoes. Just gonna take them." whereas the narcissists will have some victimy-moralizing reason why it would be unjust for them not to take them. I wonder still.
You diagnosed me as a vulnerable type. Of course I am analysing myself based in your descriptions and my childhood experiences, I could be wrong. I make a tremendous efforts on daily basis to be in touch with reality, or at list be aware of reality. Perhaps that these last 12 consecutive years I've been isolated as a caregiver, felt neglected by close friends, etc. Is kinda hard sometimes because isolation play a lot of tricks in my mind. Hope and pray that awareness gives me the chance to find healing. Thank you so much Dr.Grande
Thank you. This video explained to me awkward behaviors of my ex-partner. They are a vulnerable narcissist. I could never understand why they would engage in outrageous fantasies and promises they couldn't possibly deliver and at times switch to a self-pity party. Now it makes sense. They were just living through a cycle of fantasy and struggle to become a grandiose narcissist. It was a vicious cycle and very damaging. I tried to help but it only got me hurt. Eventually I decided to leave. I wish I did it sooner.
Hey, I just realised that I am one and have been abusing my partner for the past few years - what did you want from him? What would have made you stay?
@@whitestork3896 i really want to change. I can see how I have been deceiving myself my whole life and how I am actually pretty shit, entitled, rude etc. to be honest it is so unbelievable. My partner says dwelling in guilt and self loathing/shame etc is still narcissistic and I need to realise what I am actually doing to him. I struggle to know how not to be self-centred and I can see how I have been chasing grandiosity every single day and basically deceiving myself and not meeting any of my partner’s needs and not knowing how it happens. I haven’t figured it out yet, I don’t fully see what I am doing to him. But I can see howHaving npd makes sense - i thought i was so caring and loving and kind and it always circles around to how it’s so hard and let’s explore my issues of treating you like shit. It’s been two days since my partner told me I have npd and he is not joking - it’s shocking to me (of course) how I just cannot comfort him (I have made ‘sorry’ a traumatic phrase for him) and its because I can’t stop being self centred. I see how sweet and kind he has been while I thought he was abusing me and I had cptsd, and after how I felt so entitled to forgiveness etc. it is disgusting. I don’t want to be like this. I’m okay with being normal or even less than average (which I truly am) if it means being a kind person and acting in line with reality. I can see how shitty I have been and I cannot believe it. He says he wants to stay with me if I can get over myself and my ego. I really do love him so much and care about his pain and feel obligated to it, outside of my ego I can see how hurt he is and how I can choose to show up for him without being deluded that i am a good partner - he deserves at least that. I really want to change and will do more and more research, i know it’s possible to learn how to grow your empathy and not be a total selfish piece of shit. What were you begging your partner to change that he did not care about or actually do? What were your needs? I am so sorry for asking Edit: caught myself with that last line. It’s more about how I feel bad and sorry to ask you than your feelings (though I do care about your feelings and I’m hlad you’re no longer in an abusive relationship)
I just wrote a long comment and then lost it because I am on my phone. Your videos are VERY HELPFUL. I WILL TRY TO REWRITE IT WHEN I HAVE MORE ENERGY. thank you so much!
Interesting...the mother and sister I view do shift along the spectrum. If things are going well more grandiose if/when things are usual/going poorly or stationary the victim/poor me
Thank you for taking your time in creating all of your content, it has been such a greatly valued resource for me in both personal and professional manners, and appreciative as always for your insight, expertise and then to actively process all into very in depth, understandable and engaging online content here. It is so truly valued, and so very informative, helping me as said, in multiple areas within my own life. Thank you for sharing all you do with every video you create, I have been educated, given topics to consume, and better my learning onwards in this ever evolving sphere of which deeply I find joy in developing myself in all ways with such greatly sourced and accessible freely too, which is again so very much appreciated. Thank you Dr Grande.
After listening Your videos, I am sure i m a vulnerable narcissist... Took a lot of courage to write this !!! Your Fantasies examples are spot on!!! I hope to transform myself by gaining insight through your videos 🙂
Justine I would agree as a retired clinician. The grandious are happier in life because the people around them see a doctor or lawyer as a valuable thing. The vulnerable is about the world didn't see my greatness. I have seen malignant vulnerable s who also are antisocial and machievellian. So it's a great degree and the vulnerable could be quite vindictive towards others to add the antisocial stuff. They would fantasies about harming others or going after people who have done them wrong. Grandious I'm being recognized for being a wonderful surgeon.
Alright... I really am trying to fight the inductive reasoning here that I'm so predisposed to, but this description you've got here of the vulnerable narcissist fits me, especially that last theme. I'm not sure how badly I got it in childhood, yet here I am with aspirations of dominance and obsessive past revisionist fantasies since childhood. As for the rejection thing, I was never interested in a "relationship" and I haven't had any real friends for years, but for all the effort I put into trying to impress others, I sure do get ignored a lot! If I catch hell for being rude in a place, or suspect I may, I can't bring myself to showing my face there again for a while. I'm doing it to myself, out of fear. In any case, I like your videos on these personality disorders. Very insightful and professionally done such that the facts are there without some effed up personal narrative staining it. Kudos.
I grew up with a stepdad who had NPD and I can't seem to get into any kind of close relationship unless that person is also a narcissist, or at least has some serious tendencies. I can't seem to get away from it. I feel like I can't even get close to someone unless they have these issues, it's like I am continually abusing myself or at least putting myself in positions to be abused or used. This has been a decades long process of working on myself through the trauma and I am still a complete mess with such extreme panic attacks that I can't even move at times. One thing I notice with narcissists is that they hate seeing you cry and will get angry at you for crying. I had someone tell me I was being the angry one while I was just sitting balling my eyes out and shaking from sadness. It's as if he had to twist reality to justify his own behavior and mindset instead of seeing what was truly happening
It's like descending into a hell where nothing makes sense. Like they live in a bizarro world where you are the bad guy or the crazy one, and they're the unsung hero or the only one who is right.
@@Margar02 It is. I've been balling my eyes out begging them to stop and they still won't. They don't want to give you a minute after completely destroying you emotionally. It makes you crazy
I have vulnerable narcissism. Almost all humans fall into the narcissism ranges because it's a defense mechanism against the shame and hurt from childhood. A counter reaction towards in my case a cold mother when I as an adult woman have to be my own mother now and love my body excessively ha maybe put more effort into it than a non neurotic person would. My brother has grandiose narcissism. What is happening in my family overseas is chaos. I am in the middle of ultra narcissistic people discussing inheritance and it is Not fun at all. Productive criticism from me towards them leads to zero decent outcome. The car turning only right is a good metaphor for this. In my case it appears to be even less doable than the car that only turns right. I think the tires are also out of air. Jiddu Krishnamurti discussed this with David Bohm and David Shainberg in Brockwood Park, England in 1975 and David Shainberg called it the yank back effect. One can only go so far before being yanked back. The tolerance zone is very narrowed down to where I have no idea how to move forward in this tippi toeing scenario.
Is it narcissistic to have fantasies of being a superhero or having a dream job like a star athlete? On the one hand, these sound like fantasies of unlimited success, but on the other, fantasy by definition is supposed to be greater than reality. Is it really narcissistic to dream big?
I was thinking pretty much the same line. The fantasies that kept being described sound like what is usually fantasized about. Bc you know...it's a FANTASY. IDK the descriptions sound very much like normal things ppl like to think about.
My cousin is a grandiose narc and he has convinced my brother that they’re going to launch a dating app in asia that will be a massive success. Neither have any experience with running a business in Asia or apps. They’re both from Europe. :/ my brother has bought into it though. That’s what a fantasy looks like.
May Athena To a layperson “fantasies of unlimited success” *sounds* like a normal thing, but it is not. It is not just thinking “Wow it would be cool to be a hero/star athlete/CEO”. That is a normal fantasy. That is not a delusion of grandeur. However, people with NPD may think to themselves “I totally have what it takes to become a CEO. It’s only a matter of time before I take over this whole company! People just don’t recognize how special and important I am or else I would already be in charge around here.” That is not a normal fantasy. It’s delusional.
@@NimbusDX Ooooh. Okay. Bc sometimes I'm like "what would I do if I had superpowers?" or "Fudge, I could have said THIS in the argument and have gotten the upper hand!" and started feeling like shit about it lol. Bc at the end of the day, these are fantasies about being special or having a talent. Bit confusing to tell the difference.
Another Great video, Dr. Todd! I really liked the part when you started talking about vulnerable narcissism fantasies in popular culture and envisioned you doing a spin-off channel where you analyze popular movie tropes and compare them to DSM typologies. I would totally subscribe! First episode: Revenge Of The Nerds?
Perhaps you have covered this but if not could you do a video explaining what the tipping point of vulnerable narcissism and grandiose where it becomes pathological?
In my experience growing up with a pathological narc mother, the level is that of total lack of empathy and manipulation of all info given or emotions. The "lesser" types have moments of empathy or lower levels of manipulation, for example only to gain status or money, but not in all areas. Always check the manipulation and sadism factor when assess toxic people. I've worked with some of lesser types, but in a controlled manner, as in, we have the same objective at work but no personal info ever given, cause that was their playing field...
Pathological narcissism involves dysfunctional object relations. That is, boundaries between self and other are blurred and not intact. That leads to a need to feel superior to the other to matter. If you don’t see a clear difference between self and other, you need to separate yourself in some way, so the natural tendency (since feeling inferior, well, feels worse) is to feel better than or more special than the other. That requires excessive admiration and contingent self-esteem. Healthy “narcissism” does not have a highly contingent self-esteem because object relations are intact. It doesn’t mean people don’t have any issues with this, because for example object relations in certain contexts may be slightly dysfunctional due to, for example, trauma or other insecurities. But it doesn’t usually severely impact their lives or the lives of those around them.
@@GeorgideMarne this is fascinating surprised no replies yet. I've not seen much discourse on "levels" as I've been struggling heavily with trying to distinguish if some of the good we experienced together is genuine or was it all manipulation.
Thanks for another very enlightening video! I got quite surprised when you mentioned your experience of vulnerable narcissists desiring (so to speak) to become grandiose narcissists, since that has been one of my pet theories as a layman :). And it makes sense to me from another viewpoint; if vulnerable narcissists are more psychologically struggling (doubting, being neurotic etc) it would be more psychologically beneficial (less painful) for them to be less of that, and instead, more overt and grandiose.
I agree. The only note I'd like to make is that in Big 5 extraversion equals optimism, and introversion equals pessimism. And no surprise that an optimist is grandiose in his thinking (making a grandiose narcissist), and pessimist keeps sliding into depressions (making a depressive narcissist)
How do I know for sure that I don't have vulnerable narcissism? I have fantasies in which I finally prove myself to people because in reality I'm really shy and introverted. I do have fantasies of becoming more extroverted and more interesting, I imagine myself as the "class clown" the one who always makes other laugh but I'm still somewhat in the center of attention in those fantasies. I'm not vengeful though, I rarely hold a grudge. But when something happens and I'm supposed to show myself, my abilities etc I shy away and retreat myself. In reality I'm uncomfortable with being in the center of attention even though I fantasize about it. I'm uncomfortable when people compliment me in front of large number of people, I feel kind of ashamed. Sometimes I think people are thinking about me but often in a negative way, I do have fantasies of people hurting me because I'm a masochist... I don't know what to think, I'm really confused.
kiss4strawberry I would focus attention on learning the red flags of a narcissist or borderline. You seem to be ripe for falling for these types because they exhibit the "characteristics" you desire in moments, but they false flags. I too am shy and am drawn to those who are outgoing and confident. I feel incompetent so in the past I was drawn to those who displayed Narcissistic traits. Disastrous ends all! If you are young you may find that once you find an environment where you succeed and are accepted for who you are such as work you may blossom and not be so "shy". This was true for me. Don't mean to impose myself into another, but your text resonated. Take what fits and discard the rest! I was called shy all my school years but no one could call me shy in my 30-50's! Give yourself some space to grow into who you are in a healthy environment (not school)
Maybe look up avoidant personality disorder? Also remember that having a few narcissitic traits don't mean having narcissitic personality disorder. Best of luck on your personal path to improving your mental health dear!
"Themes of rejection and redemption": that's exactly it! I should have heard that explanation earlier, before I heard from my former friend statements like "They destroyed my country, and I came to this country to take revenge", "People get promoted up to the level of their incompetence", "I am glad that conflict is finished; it could have got really ugly, because I don't lose fights", and - to top it all - "You know who else has a character similar to mine?... Jesus Christ". All of that would be said with a typically mournful and stoic gaze into the horizon. There were many other such examples, as well as a lot of gaslighting. It astonishes me now how brainwashed I must have been to keep stifling my initial shock at such statements and to rationalize them to myself as just awkward jokes or as signs of his sensitivity. I took me several years to finally witness that wallop of hatred and aggression that he was hiding inside, even trying to hide it from himself.
One thing, with a shy narsisist in a romantic relationship, is there a delusion in blaming the other person? Say I see my partner depressed, I ask what is bothering you, would you like to see a counselor, and at the end be told you didn't care. The other situation being self improvement, she decides to do a thing for betterment, I say awesome, and when things get tough I say you can do this, then get the you never cared for me. To note after it all when I did finally say I don't care about you at all, the arrogant of I know what I'm doing went back to the feel bad for me can't you see what all I am doing? I can see the similar traits in borderline. It has got to be difficult attempting to diagnose for a treatment.
I know narcissists can be dangerous exploitative people. Your aim is to inform and spread awareness. I'm sorry Dr. Grande Please keep doing what you do. Your work is highly appreciated
This is interesting for me because i wondered about a person i knew who i suspected was on the narc spectrum, however i started to doubt this was the case due to an increase in quite aggressive behavior and comments over the course of years. In time they became more assertive and condescending and your theory of the conversion from vulnurable to grandiose helps me to see that regardless; it is still very possibly narcissism.
What was most interesting was that this gave me an opportunity to access my own character and my fantasies. Regardless of having what I, today, would call ineffectual parenting, coming from a totally Dysfunctional parental home, I somehow survived, sorta. I always felt empathy for those less fortunate than I. I was never bullied and I doubt I would have allowed it. But I was as tall as most boys and athletic. My only inadequacy was not being able to concentrate in school, following grade school, therefore I became boy crazy. Having low self esteem is easy to disguise, complicating so much. I suppose this is where self confidence or awareness develops or it doesn't. We usually fake it until we make it. My entire adolescence was spent faking it...and this has been my entire life since the 7th grade. My pursuit was for self understanding and betterment of my capacity to provide for myself financially. I was raised with denial of openness and honesty, therefore, I had no interest in grandiose fantasies or a pretend life that would make myself feel or look better. I do remember a dream in which I was holding onto a rock and flying in the sky. But something shot me down and I had to come down to Earth. I was in my early 20's. So obviously I did have some unreality happening, somewhere, somehow. I believe this dream gave me the impetus to begin looking at my dreams seriously. (Hey! I'm yakking just like a Grandiose Narc...maybe I'm a different breed of one. Ya think?)
Every time I watch one of these videos, I come away feeling like I'm some kind of mentally ill monster. Is it supposed to generate that effect? Anyone else feel similar?
To the OP, the comment above me is likely sarcastic so don't worry. Yes, I too feel that these videos are far too vague in defining the scope and scale of things like "fantasizing". I wish the host would elaborate on things such as how much fantasizing is too much, vs how much is healthy and normal. For example, occasionally imagining an ideal sexual parter or dream job seems very common, and completely reasonable.
As a newly diagnosed with vulnerable narcissistic personality disorder, and the heaviness of the diagnose, and the overall flow of negative comments is really difficult to cope with. It feels like after last Friday, when the words had been said, I suddenly became less human and more a monster. It is difficult enough to realize, that there's a difficult and lengthy road to (questionable) recovery, the comments dehumanize my problems and make me feel thst my thoughts and actions are inhumane. I feel thst my fait is doomed from the start by the society, only because I am narcissistic.
@@ewajackowska4115 No you are not inhuman. If we hadn't had Narsasists, many things would not have happened. Great leaders use their narsasasistic traits to get uncomfortable things done in dire circumstances. Such as Churchill. The main thing is to listen to others around you and subtally change some of your reactions to situations and interactions to help everone working with you be comfortable enough to also succeed. You have already done a positive start by taking therapy.
Holy crap Dr Grande. You have assisted me in cracking the safe that is my mother in law. I'm not going to tell my husband about the fact you just perfectly described her and her behaviour, in a few concentrated videos! Because he's been trying to explain it for almost 15 years now 😂 He totally has her figured out, he just couldn't transfer that knowledge to me in any format I could understand. We have the most toxic relationship (but you already knew that 😂) I've just wanted peace. Which has been close to WWIII... Any tactic I've tried from my perspective has blown up in my face. I knew I wasn't doing something right (approaching from my perspective,approach our personalities couldn't be more different. It's seriously so much better now.
Married to an extreme Grandiose. His fantasies used to drive me crazy because I thought he was really going to try for his fantasy, and the fantasies were way out of the park. His mother told me; "Just don't take his fantasies seriously". Well, he was the son of a Major General at the Pentagon and then retired, became a Big Pharma CEO, therefore, the Golden Child, and the unfamiliar family dynamic was truly pathological - Looking back and healing. There was a Repetition cycle that became clear after years and after final Discard of me. Every time he would assuredly fail, the parents rescued him by picking him up brushing him off and giving him (us) a fresh start, over n over, and my ex could play his dad like a fiddle; a very toxic dance between them hard, and yrs for me to see. I've seen the ex walk in his parent's house with a certain "aire", (signal) that would make his General Father submissive to him like walking on eggshells. Just Bizzare.
I was married to one, too, and he also used "signals" when wanting to manipulate his parents. He never failed to make them do what he wanted. He was an only child, and I suppose that had something to do with the dynamic in that family. It was so fascinating to watch them.
You are SO right about movies based on redemption and revenge for people who have felt vulnerable earlier in life....one can see WHY a vulnerable narcissist would work hard to overcome what they once saw as their limitations and the fantasies would be highly motivating.....the overweight girl who loses the weight go to her high school reunion and wow all the guys who wouldnt date her and to get revenge with the mean girls....many many popular themes stem from insecurites, overcoming these insecurites and an often over idealized estimation and fantasy of how terrific life will be once they see themselves as winners, etc I have treated depression in women who lost weight thinking everything about their lives would change once they lost weight and then being depressed by their own unrealistic expectations. Many fantasies and issues women have are around appearance. Women recognize that for men, a womans appearance is a major component of a womans attraction. Young women, and increasingly our culture has morphed into middle aged ones, getting lots of procedures to in their minds, upgrade their appearance to attract a man.Plastic surgery has developed less and less invasive procedures over the last two decades and women dont wait til 50 or 60 to get procedures done as they once did...mini lifts, botox and a PLETHORA of procedures have proliferated...so have videos and bloggers geared completely to appearance. I have seen a radical shift in these issues in the past 20 years. We dont see any on how to attract a man by getting your personality issues improved through therapy, the ones that drive men away, like an obsession with appearance, desperation to find a man with the MEANS and willingness to help them constantly tweak their appearance. Men kncreasingly are sayi g they meet too many wlmen who are high maintenance when tjey are dating...they say they want women who care as much about them as they do about their own appearance etc. They say they want a woman they can relax and enjoy life with. I see in wlmen especiaññy but in some men too. increasingly LESS acceptance of normal processes like aging, slow changes in appearance...in some women fears of aging and a normal less youthful appearance may not reach clinical levels of obsession amd compulsion, but they are haunted by a cloud over their life satisfaction and they have difficulties maintaining or making new relationships due to the amount of thought, concern, insecurity etc thay have around issues of appearance. The culture is changing and getting more intense around superficial issues of appearance....more orthodonture, more grinding down of teeth replacing them with posted reconstructions...we didnt see braces on 50 yr olds in the past. Lasix eye surgery at 40. Women in their 30s and late 20s getting Botox and other injectables. Instead of major facelifts at 60, now we have smaller surgical procedures starting earlier and earlier, thread implants etc etc many more botched procedures needing correction etc. I see far more pain: psychological, long term physical pain from permanent nerve damage....even some addiction to pain relivers beginning with botched cosmetic procedures, financial and relationship pain over this increased focus on appearance at earlier and earlier and later and later ages...you really hit on something here.
I love these videos and the breakdown is clear and concise--My main questions and concern is for overlapping traits/behaviors between narcissism , bipolar disorder, sociopathic tendencies etc. Even when Dr Grande separated them they seem like symptoms could overlap and difficult to discern what the person is suffering from. Also the fantasies explained seem like they could apply to a person without narcissistic personality disorder "fantasies of being in a position of power" "sense of entitlement". Superficial charm is also just about any man working in business or sales..you have to put on a mask for clients for example.
Wao this is quite on the spot. The vulnerable can actual transition into the grandiose coz av seen evolve before my eyes. Once appeared taking the back position avoiding being noticed and keeping a low profile but as he worked so hard at his work and he became noticed he got promoted more. Then as he rose to managerial position his demeanor changed. He became very haughty, arrogant with his head tilted above as it to say he was equal with God or something like that. It waa kind of revealed yo me as I watched conduct himself. Thats when I began to search out what was with him and the so called mask was falling off and he dint seem to care. Have noted the rejection which he has been fulfilling on me and the revenge is a major one for them. Unfortunately there were issues at work which led to being suspected, theres court case involved and its as if hes gone back to being vulnerable. I concur with what has been discussed.
What i have noticed is that there seems to be a desire to fantasize about success, such as how to spend the money after winning the lottery. Also, if there was money enough, where to travel, and how would the travel happen, but extravagantly. These fantasies often happen while awake late at night, in periods of anxiety, and usually happen in order to quash the anxiety. That's happening with "apparent" covert narc.
Thank you for the video, Dr. Grande. I'm fascinated by the distinction you've traced between the time-orientation of the fantasy theme. I've skimmed the two papers you mention and only found the reference for the future-oriented fantasies. What is the main bibliographical reference for the connection between fantasies and time? More videos in this direction would be greatly welcome!! :) Thank you in advance for your help
I agreed with what the commenter down below said about consumer culture being a prime conduit for these disorders, but I'll also add that the internet and social media is an even more omnipresent conduit than that.
My favourite fantasy is being a time traveller, to see where we go.. where we have been, my passion is geology( geologists are time travellers 😂 ) and it's incredible, our earth, it's beautiful 💖
Oh, wow! That last fantasy for vulnerable narcissism made a few things fall into place.... Over 6 months I watched my narcissist change to grandiose.... The abuse changed and went to way more confrontational and violent.
Dr. Grande all this makes sense. The most outrageous narcissistic fantasy I have heard so far is when I heard a very rich man who owns at least one large yacht say to the public that ahead of time he can in a dream see his what his next child [or grandchild[ren] are going to look like.
This video validates my research on my coward narc husband. A step uncle (new) once told him during a gathering that he should quit his new business that he is making a mistake. My husband has just ventured into business at that time. I remember years later my husband told me how wrong that step uncle was that he made a jealous remark and gave bad advice and must have come from bad intention to make my husband give up on his business and wanted my husband to fail. And then my husband said look at me now, im successful and i proved that step uncle wrong and he gave malicious advice years before and i proved him wrong. It was very strange and very bothering to me how my husband emphasized that him working hard and being successful as a result and connects this achievement to come from a motivation to prove somebody wrong. I thought working hard is for own goal and own self and own satisfaction. But then i just emphatised and listen to him expressing himself. Because i love communicating with him at that time. Because i didnt know what i was dealing with at that time. My point is my husband was bitter and he remember years ago what happened in the exchange.
Thank you for this. Can you please do a video of vulnerable narcissism and rejection? I have narcissistic (and borderline) traits, and when I feel rejected, I go into a spiral of shame, self-hatred, worthlessness, and anger/rage. I’ve also always had extreme sensitivity to rejection (supposedly this is associated with ADHD, which I believe I have). Thus, I never put myself out there. I’d really appreciate a video about this. I’m a male, FWIW.
What does FWIW mean? Interesting comments from two years ago. Another Dr has stated that the personality disorders are associated with Anxious Attachment. Your point also about Adhd and Rejection Sensitivity Dysphoria is very true and appropriate. I wonder whether Dr. Grande has addressed your request. How would I learn about it?
Thank you for the great content! I'm learning more from you than my clinical classes lol. This construct 'Vulnerable Narcissism' is new to me and I'm interested in studying it more. I'm curious what would be the typical behaviors associated with this? For example, we associate manipulation, greed, gas-lighting with Grandiose Narcissism, what would one expect to see exhibited from a person with this? (i.g. language, external actions, lack of actions, mannerisms, etc.) Thanks so much! 🙏🏾
I'm confused. The fantasies actually sound like normal things to an extent. We've all thought about things we can say and do to get the upper hand in a conversation. We all thought about getting revenge on people who treat us cruelly. My question is just a matter of where do you draw the line between normal thoughts and narcissism?
curvyquill I don’t think what you used as an example with the walking is narcissism. I really think what you’re describing is something someone is very self conscious over. Some folks will try hiding their big ears. I don’t think when they do that it means narcissism. Self consciousness is not narcissism. Anxiety isn’t narcissism. Please don’t play psychologist when you don’t know what you’re talking about. 🥺❤️
Narcissism involves defective object relations and thus the need to feel superior and entitled. I don’t think it’s worth obsessing over the distinction between normal and pathological fantasy. After all, avoidant personalities also fantasize and have imaginary friends. It’s only when it affects your life or the lives of those around you, and when it involves other NPD traits, that it becomes an issue.
I agree. Yes the doctor has experience of talking with V narcissists about their fantasies, but ironically, how much experience does he have with talking to "normal" people about theirs? (A twist on survivor bias)
I'd love to know more about how and why a narcisst might evolve from an covert style to full blown NPD. Family patterns? Narcisstic injury? Unresolved issues? What makes this occur? Thanks for considering this video. As always your videos are super helpful. Thank you.
A close friend of 13 years just cut me off after I told him I couldn't listen to him talk about being an author anymore. It was a fantasy he had created for himself and that he claimed to be living for years. Maybe he would get a small paid gig here or there but it consumed every Interaction he had with human beings. I've been trying to understand why this criticism made him want to end our friendship. But these videos are really helping me grasp the situation.
This is excellent information, as always. I know I should probably go find a video more relevant to the topic, but the interviews of Dr. Reid with James Holmes have been showing up here on YT recently. I watched the trial in its entirety and found Dr. Reid to be an absolutely fascinating witness, even challenging linguistic tricks of the attorneys and explaining them to the jury. With all the interviews he had with James Holmes available today, what are your thoughts on his ultimate diagnosis? It’s been several years, but I think he said on the stand that he considered an NPD diagnosis. He specifically questioned Mr. Holmes on his fantasy of defeating “thugs who try to mug him” as to whether he had ever been bullied or mugged. His answer was that he had not experienced either. Was that a spot where Dr. Reid was able to rule out NPD?
This may be too much to talk about generally but I would be very interested to know what type of careers narcissistic, or any of the ten DSM PDs, choose. Also, is there a coorelation to how much education the person would strive (not necessarily achieve), to achieve.
I kinda chuckled a bit about the vulnerable narcissist fantasy of "I'll show them", because this is how tons of women cope with breakups. Get a new haircut, start working out, take up interesting hobbies, buy new clothes, etc, initially from a place of "They'll see what they're missing now". In fact, it's greatly encouraged in friend groups ("You were too good for them, they'll regret it now that you're gone, they'll come crawling back"). Granted, the hope is that eventually, it moves from "I'll show them what they're missing", in that vulnerable state, to "I feel better about myself now, I'm ready to move on with my life", versus staying in that place for years. But this isn't just in movies - it's everywhere.
That is not the kind he was talking about, that is not this at all, however familiar it sounds as that tactic to coping with the loss and getting over it, that would be healthy. I think covert narcissists are FANTASIZING, but really they are into finding sympathetic people to show how victimized they were, it was not their fault, to be validated in their pain and why its been 3 decades and they still have fresh ways of recognizing their bitterness, rather than see how they may have had a hand in the breakup
@@marooqi I agree, and I appreciate your comment showing the differences. I was referring to when he talked about how interesting it was, starting at 18:08, that the vulnerable narcissistic fantasy of revenge and redemption is a common trope in movies. I was just pointing out that it's very common in American life, too, especially with breakups. But I hear what you're saying, about how one version is healthy, because the person grieves, copes, and moves on, whereas a narcissist will still be stuck in it 30 years later.
I think the breakup thing is healthy as the other commenter said. When I rejected someone (something which I’m perversely proud of as a result of my narcissistic traits), he told me his friends all told him he’s too good for me anyway, who am I to reject him, I’m not that special, etc. He is certainly not pathological. It’s just something healthy people need sometimes to shore up self esteem and help them move on.
Shit, i fit so much criteria for covert narcissism :( Guess it’s high time i get that therapy i’ve been trying to avoid 😕 I’m Bipolar, and when in hypomanic phase, i tend to shift towards grandiose Narc. When depressed, to extreme covert traits. I have treatment for Bipo now, but seemingly i can’t shake that damn narcissism off, and that scares the crap out of me 😰
narcissism can e treated. NDP is adifferent animal from narcissism as a trait. Humans all naturally possess narcissism as a trait and we can work on becoming more compassionate and work on our interpersonal skills. For all of us, depression will increase our narcissism. It is a self protective mechanism.
my dude, the fact that you consider you might be narcissistic means you're probably gonna be easier to treat. I'm not a therapist, but i think when people can admit something distasteful about themselves, that's pretty good. Why not get therapy? I think even healthy people should pop the hood every once in awhile.
Dr. Grande, thank you for publishing these videos -- you are helping so many people! . . . I have a question: can a Vulnerable Narcissist ever develop a healthy, loving romantic relationship? I would appreciate hearing you discuss the limitations of romantic love with a Vulnerable Narcissist. Can they ever learn to not resort to passive aggressiveness and grudges, especially if this is a life long pattern? My guess is not, but I would love to hear your thoughts. Peace.
I sometimes wish I was a psychopath or a grandiose narcissist.. does this mean I'm a vulnerable narcissist? I'm very neurotic and wish I had confidence and less anxiety.. but I dont have alot of empathy, sympathy I have alot of and I help my friends as mutch as I can, but I also can be manipulative without realizing it...
I admit that psychopathy sounds appealing in some ways. I have a lot of fear, i'm jumpy. I hear they are not. As in, they literally don't have the same wiring for startle responses that the rest of us do. I hate being a bunny. I wish I was not. But i also hear psychopaths aren't wired for any of the other cool things we feel. I don't think I'd enjoy that. What else would there be to do except just acquire money or minions? What else could you do for fun? I'd rather be a bunny than a crocodile. Idk, it's a mixed bag.
Doc, I really appreciate you covering the oscillation between Vulnerable and Grandiose Narcissism... I definitely saw that with mine 😮 He wasn't shy or lazy... I didn't see much exploitation either... Nevertheless he was quite selfish interpersonally especially when it came to constantly wanting attention and hopping social situations... 😅
It seem the fantasies mostly involve themselves. My fantasies are about things like something I may make or build . Or maybe what something may have been like( life in ancient rome....)
Here's my feedback since you asked, but probably already know. Just as I have traits of narcissism, a narcissist can have the pathology but have traits they have adopted. For example, my ex didn't care about her appearance. Wore old clothes to the office. When I asked why she didn't have any concerns for a more professional appearance, she went out and bought some new clothes for the office. Since I now know she was manipulating me, even the clothing may have been part of some bigger deception to enforce the mask of purity. But it did happen.
Hi Dr. Grande can you do a video on if psychopaths are made or born? Also could you do more videos on narcissism bc I am trying to understand all forms of narcissism so I can protect myself. Videos on the way their minds work-how to better understand what’s going on in their heads so that we don’t take it personally. My parents are both narcs and my siblings and I are very affected...
U-toob is the narcissist's dream come true. It's such a thrill being on the comment section for all the big nobodies (BN) a title that I earned from my dad before I got out of high school. The initials BN might also be rendered as bare naked or bad news. People hate/love me, what do you know.
Thank you for discussing this, it helps so much, however i dont understand why you think one is pathological, when to me, the vulnerable should have just as much written jn the DSM diagnosing as the grsndiose, because usually they ARE trying to emulate a grandiose, but are more unhinged due to their hypersensitivity to criticism and being extremely dangerous or getting someone to damage their target for them when they didnt want to by themselves.
I do have a question Dr. Grande. Would being interested in your own personality traits and Having a semi-educated idea of the OCEAN traits preclude one from being narcissistic?
