Operation Ichi-Go; The Japanese Hail Mary 

Still waiting for part 2 for the monte casino video.

ru-vid.com/video/%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BE-oKJZypn4Erw.html

Jonny, you watched World War Two’s Pearl Harbor series?

You missed a few key points. You mentioned the Formosa strike but the US carried out early B-29 raids into the Japanese home islands from Western China. Ichigo had nothing to do with preventing air strikes on Japan itself. As it was USAAF strikes against coastal shipping that also prompted them for Ichigo as they wanted a railroad to transport resources and troops since the oceans were deadly to the IJN at this point and push the USAAF far enough back into China to prevent airstrikes on coastal shipping and reduce the threat to just USN subs rather than subs and aircraft. The USAAF since 42 had been occasionally bombing Hong Kong and Indochina and by 44 were aggressive in using forward bases to shuttle bomb Japanese ships hugging the Chinese coasts for protection from USN subs. Plus having a railroad to Indochina from Korea allows them to transport men and material and relieve the strain on their merchant ships that were being devastated by USN subs. For example when they surrendered a significant portion of the IJN fleet was stuck in Singapore where although they were still a threat but didn’t sortie because of damage sustained that they couldn’t fix as their industrial base was in Japan. Meaning cruisers suffering significant damage effectively became floating AAA platforms as they couldn’t fix them outside of Japan with their shipping being interdicted. While in Japan the IJN could repair combat damage but didn’t have the fuel to waste on sorties. Ichigo had nothing to do with USAAF bombing Japan or B-29s. They tried that and they results weren’t good and thus the move to the Marianas. It was easier to the USN to supply them than to fly fuel and bombs over the Hump as the Ledo Road didn’t come online until the end of the war. Japan had few large merchant ships left not many tankers and they were being tracked by allied intelligence and sometimes picked off by USAAF striking the waters around China, which they hugged to deter subs. Plus the success of Ichigo was also due to Stillwell preventing USAAF AirPower to block the offensive to make Chiang Kai Shek suffer as well as Chiang denying reinforcements until it was too lates to warlords/generals whom he viewed as a political threat to him.

where is the minor allies tank video! reeeeeee

was thinking this too

Tojo ain't no Samurai... Tenno Heika Banzai!!!!

@Basileus Belisarius Such dishonor, they deserve to die not by the blade, but by firing squad...

@@francis9428 Hence why he is saying it to his Generals

@Basileus Belisarius *Nanjing

"no, wait, stop, oh noooooo" - Americans not really caring cause they're too busy creating Japanese BBQ with firebombs and their brand new shiny airbases

America: So anyway, i started blasting.

Hehehe B-29 go "brrrrrr!"

@@micfail2 more like *BOOM BOOM*

@@dominusnoobus1589 I hope the engines are not making that sound, if they are then the crew is in an awful lot of trouble

I think there is a video of youtube on how anime was the result of Japan trying to make people forget its warcrimes by being cute.

Think you’re forgetting nazi Germany

@@lucygrey37 nope. Imperial army was much worse even than SS troops.

@@PitLord777 Yep that was the video I was thinking of! I just couldn't remember the name

Its your fault they suffered amnesia. Lol.

Is his channel dead?

Don’t know

And when the world forgot, he appeared

@@forickgrimaldus8301 ru-vid.com/video/%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BE-bPirvZzGFBE.html

Why is this said about literally every time a youtube creator has a life or is going to school or is just burned out? No, the world doesn't need him. Hes a good content creator, I like his stuff, but holy jesus the overreaction.

I thought No No virus claimed him

Wait what?

Who?

Can you explain this meme? I've seen Slovakian military specifically mentioned in a joke context several times but I can't the source of this.

Inb4 everyone realizes I'm just making fun of how long ago the axis tank videos were lmao

ru-vid.com/video/%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BE-oKJZypn4Erw.html

Grabs 9mm 1911: "don't mid if I do"

@@slogyourgrogyouoldseadog ru-vid.com/video/%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BE-oKJZypn4Erw.html

shikata ga nai as they say

Stand up and fight!

the weirdest part is like, Mao criticised "Han chauvinism" and marginalising minority ethnic and cultural groups. Dude realised that antagonising those groups that often made up the borders of China would be uh, unhelpful for ensuring territorial security longterm. Then after Mao got scolded for being idealistic while implementing the "great leap forward" and brooded for a decade, he really really went into the deep end and promoted the nonsense that was the cultural revolution; and even the current govt of china thinks that was not so cool (there's a statement i think i attributed to the leader after mao during the late 70s/early80s, something to the effect that "Mao was 7 parts good and 3 parts bad" which became the official stance (the good being solidifying the party and early statebuilding in the ww2/chinese civil war/ early 50s, the bad being the great leap forward and cultural revolution) also holy shit im sorry i just wanted to talk about the first bit and i kept typing and typing and i cant stop why cant i stop wh

OOF!

@Libtards cant Silence me I'll take pragmatic power over intangible pride any day of the week. Of course, for me the only problem with China is that they're not my country, and in true imperialist fashion, don't care for people who are not theirs beyond what they can squeeze out of them.

@Libtards cant Silence me Pride is an emotion borne of chemical reactions in the brain. Pride without power is weakness disguised as strength.

god its so horrible what's happening to them

@Jack the Gestapo :o

@Jack der Hauptsturmführer sadly, also why current day Taiwan barely touches the Japanese genocide in their history textbooks...

why? because a Hanjian government under the DPP has infiltrated Taiwan and begins to whitewash Japan and bow to both them and America like the coward scumbags they are.

@Jack der Hauptsturmführer You seem to know a lot about the Chinese and Japanese front of the war. Is it true that some Japanese soldiers remained in China after their surrender?

I read that as "LMAO"

It's fairly interesting because while Northern China had a countryside rife with partisans against the Japanese, the Southern countryside consisted of partisans still loyal (or at the very least, conscripted and with a strong dislike of Jingwei) to the KMT, though these armies were poorly armed and trained. For example, when Li Zongren fought in Taierzhuang, he used the Southern countryside as an information network.. In a way, Japan had greatly underestimated the ability of countryside troops to fight and their opposition to regime change (probably due to the last 100 years), and it had forgotten the difference of the individual warlords in controlling swarths of territory, because some of them ruled much harshly than others. The Japanese assumed another Taiwan where resistance was sparse enough to be suppressed by wartime propaganda. This blindness to individual opposition was also displayed when: * the Japanese attempted to recruit Ma Hongkui as a leader of a Muslim puppet state, but he declined, duly noting that his uncle had fought against the Eight-Nation Alliance in the 1900s, and that the Japanese had made up a majority of Coalition troops. * Wang Jingwei would try to coax Hakka generals, to which the general reply was "We refuse to be slaves." * The Japanese hoped they could win over Zhang Zuolin's son after his assassination in Manchuria. Zhang Xueliang was extremely angry and declared himself Chinese, not Manchurian (technically accurate, as he was a Han Chinese living in Manchuria), affirming this several times.

@@shinybreloom4027 oh boi you know all of those warlords, I only remember ma bufang (or something like that)

Mao: Since we killed more Chinese NRA troops than IJA troops, we are the real defender of China.

@@SoulDuckling126 Yeah, just takes some practice and reading of a few memoirs and biographies. Many of those warlords defected to the CCP or are in Taiwan/have relatives in the US, but as individual people the warlords have unique traits from a mixture of philosophies, wealth levels (Xue Yue being extremely poor and Xueliang being born into relative privilege), and general favorability among the populace. The blends of philosophies are curious from a historical standpoint, but within a Chinese context they make some sense. The leanings of these Chinese-style warlords come in so many ways that they're worth memorizing for curiosity's sake alone, ranging from the monarchist-disguised-as-republican Wu Peifu, the Confucian socialist Yan Xishan, etc. It can even be said that Zhang Xueliang's admiration of Soviet, Italian, and German forces and general strongmen was one of the reasons he didn't see the KMT/CCP divide so strongly (despite his inner loyalties), and was willing to cause what would become the United Front.

This reminds me of what the cpu did on a random battle In heroes of might and magic III I was near one of its citadels when the main bot hero just left leaving only a token garrison there. While I could easily capture it with My nearby hero and hes army there was no chance I was going to beat the bot hero. So I figured this whole thing was a clear trap and didnt take it. I still think I should have done it. Alas Mao is a better gamer than I 😄

That really sounds like Quintus Fabius Maximus

Yes. Being the punching bag of the East. Respect tho. I wouldnt want millions of Chinese reinforcing Japanese garrisons.

One doesn't need to win in order to win. Sometimes just managing to not lose is enough.

In a war of attrition, that's really all they could do - especially considering the supplies and training that they couldn't receive due to funding being siphoned off from bureaucrats. Truthfully, the KMT generals were pretty hit-or-miss, with the top ones having received training in interwar Japan or experience against the USSR.

until this day, the japanese still don't think that they lost the war to china. funny thing is, the reason why japanese attacked pearl harbor was because their country was already at the brink of self-destruction, due to the fact that they burned too much cash on the war and desperately needed more resources to fuel the war machine.

Get the hell out of my brain

:(

Big sad hours

Yeah

POV: you're sad bc he's been dead for 5 months

this got a chuckle out of me

He looked so shocked too

Poor guy

bruh at 10:25 2 dudes straight up got blown out in to pieces holy damm.

Lol

berry go.

Hi Emperor

...

02

I was gonna say something....but I think the anime community suffers enough.

Maybe they got addicted after having to sit through Girls und Panzer

Not to mention he even offers to be a voice actor in Girls und Panzer abridged.

@@minnesotanfreedomist3147 source?

@@comradekenobi6908 The RU-vidr Gunmetal Slug. Also 8:04...

@@minnesotanfreedomist3147 ?? that's not a very good source explain?

Maids are based, raping China is not.

@@lightblue254 I don’t think either is based

Japan never did this, it was the chinese communists.

@@drpastormartinssempa8994 Do the words "Nanjing Massacre" ring a bell?

@@jamesyap8364 yeah the brutal massacre of chinese by communists. It was an awful event.

It’s really amazing how Japanese aircraft went from the boogeymen of the skies to almost a joke in just a couple of years. Really goes to show how much the Japanese relied on their elite pilots, and how badly they squandered that resource.

​@@Shaun_Jones it's wasn't just the pilots, the Zero was an exceptional plane at the start of the war, easily outclassing anything the Americans had at the time. Unfortunately for the Japanese, the US quickly developed planes equal to or superior to the Zero.

​@@GeraltofRivia22certified hellcat moment

How did you post this so early

Yeah hold on

ru-vid.com/video/%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BE-oKJZypn4Erw.html

Oh yeah i forgot he was a fellow Hoosier

@@kylekevin9651 I sam that Rickroll coming. Here’s stuff for the rest of you: ru-vid.com/video/%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BE-WilUPn4U-wU.html ru-vid.com/video/%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BE-htIWbKYRHQk.html

Lol

"nothing personal kid"

"Maybe we should have pacified China before we attacked America..."

@Sl Mi China was a major theatre of the war. The Japanese lost somewhere between 3.6M to 4M troops during the war. Of these, somewhere between 2.2-2.5M of these losses were from the western allies. The Soviets killed and captured somewhere between 520K-735K. The Chinese killed and captured somewhere between 456K-700K.

@@kurousagi8155 its a shame its not talked about as much

USA a couple days later: Here's your rising sun! *Enola Gay noises*

@Sl Mi One of them has a bigger deal talking about traditions/reconstruction than the other; specially (?) considering their (then) recent past

@Sl Mi difference is the other is a bigger country and has a huge population capable of giving land and men While the other is a smaller country that didn't want its population to be killed by the Germans and can be taken over because the country is not big enough to stall for time and pump out guns like the chinese or the soviets

@Sl Mi it was around 20 million not 30 mil

To let you know how bad it was when the Russians attacked The majority of the automatic weapons in artillery have been moved back to Japan to defend against an invasion Here comes an IS-3 and all the Japanese soldiers had were rifles

I want a video on the only landing on the Japanese Home Islands prior to the surrender. USS Barb's service record is like an action movie. Then she got modernized with the post-war GUPPY program before being sold off to Italy... Who scrapped it for parts without notifying the United States just in case we may have wanted to buy back the most badass submarine ever for some reason.

The Pacific Theater in general is so downplayed and underrated. I actually find it more interesting than the war in Europe.

One US sub even took out a Japanese train. They made land shark into a real thing.

Historigraph has made a few videos about your topic, I suggest checking him out

I think I’ve got what you asked for - a YT channel Drachinifel (it’s all about the history of the navy) has a series of videos on that topic going and the first two videos are already up: -> The USN Pacific Submarine Campaign - The Dark Year (Dec ‘41 to Dec ‘42) - ru-vid.com/video/%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BE-m1SvYtM4dgw.html -> The USN Pacific Submarine Campaign - The Struggle is Real (Jan ‘43 - Jun ‘43) - ru-vid.com/video/%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BE-P5LpV9bFtCc.html

He has commented on other videos in the last week

P sure somebody paid money for the Monte Cassino series, too. Whatta way to get scammed.

hold on what happened? did he die?

@@yldrm5704 not that anyone here knows it's just last he last posted of December 9th 2020 and nothing since

@@mr.monkeybabby1336 any updates?

@@Excal500 nothing yet

I felt that.

✊🏻🥲

Because I'm Ichi stay, Ichi go, Little high, little low

If only they had time machine!

Perfect example of "useful idiots".

Not all Uyghurs are religious

@@LOL-zu1zr eh don't bother. They'll drop caring about them in a few months and move on to some different cold war esque bullshit

historic bruh moment

Nah hes not a “jontron” unless he starts going on and on about the jewish question and changes his opinion of nazi ideology

@@MozTS Wait what? I think i missed/ don't know something. Has jontron changed his mind on something important?

@@schretlenaugustijn2391 jontron went on a bunch of anti-sjw podcasts a few years ago. So it became a meme to label him a nazi

@CJED there is a difference between saying the wests demographics are being irreversibly changed through immigration (which they are, parts of london are minority british, america went from 90% white to 50%) and 'the great replacement conspiracy theory' which is the meme that there is a illuminati filled with powerful people of a certain religion that want to kill all white people through immigration

@CJED lmao ok then

Also, we can be pretty sure he's committed several war crimes in between videos.

Well at least he isn't Montemayor. The time between part 1 and part 2 of his Midway series was a year and 4 months.... And he didn't release ANY videos between them...

I'm just glad he's posting stuff on the topic of his Pacific Series.... one day we'll get part 5

@@Pikkabuu Even so, his videos are worth the wait though

@@Pikkabuu Loki moo hi kk koo

Italy: "The operation it's a go!"

Germans: Die operation ist ein go!

Is it the real Abraham Lincoln

Mario once said... *ICHI GO!!*

Operation Strawberry

And Russia inavde

@memes memos lmao no. There was never any chance whatsoever of Soviet troops landing on any of the Japanese home islands and everybody knew it. Stalin absolutely wanted to but his generals showed him how impossible it would be and pointed out that such an operation, if it could even be successfully mounted and even in the small chance that a beachhead was achieved, would be decimated before it ever even landed, would get trapped on the beaches, and would be forced to beg the United States to come to their rescue. That is why zukov was able to talk Stalin out of that madness, Stalin didn't want to be humiliated by relying on the United States to save him yet again. Please stop engaging in historical revisionism.

Sorry I met upper china

@@micfail2 sorry I met upper china

@@memesmemos8552 your point is still irrelevant and historically inaccurate. The official documents and witness accounts are very clear, the only reason Japan surrendered was because of the second use of an atomic weapon. The only role the Soviets had to play in the surrender of Japan was the fact that they refused to try to pressure the United States to accept a conditional surrender. That's like me trying to claim credit for my favorite MMA fighter winning a tough match just because I cheered from the sidelines lol

I think fighting in the country of China being fairly static has a lot to do with it. Nothing terribly unusual happens, at least compared to the Eastern front's wild swings between German and Soviet advances. The major advances were at sea with campaigns in Burma being almost a side show by comparison. I agree that it's a really fun subject to study. The interplay of China's spheres of influence (KMT, the Communist forces, and local warlords) is quite interesting. The weird interactions between Chiang and others is also a worthwhile read (especially since he didn't along well with either Stilwell or Churchill...I mean, you could probably create a heated debate in the comments section by just picking a side between Chiang/Stilwell). That said, I think the focus of both forces was trying to avoid a costly land war in China and it influences where the most interesting moves occur.

@@kirant yea everything about this front is not well known by most people I’ll bring it up to “history buffs” and they say wait China was in WWII? Yet millions died there either from the Japanese or famine caused by flooding to stop the Japanese (which didn’t help the nationalist cause later). I recently bought a few rifles from the conflict and there are two books on the subject and they are nothing like what you can find on Japanese, Italian, French, Russian, ect on the same subject of small arms.

The US isn't fantastic at teaching world history that they weren't directly involved in... which is odd, because they were directly involved in every aspect of the war with Japan.

probably not a shining example of american inteference, as indirectly led to the CCP which are not exactly shining beacons of morality

@RogerwilcoFoxtrot that's very cool, I respect your efforts

Fengtian clique got the money to industrialize because of the Japanese. Their leader, Zhang Zuolin, was funded entirely by Japan to oppose Chiang Kaishek's KMT. That said, Zhang Zuolin and the Fengtian clique still declared their loyalty to China over Japan or Russia, stating that the Fengtian clique and Manchuria are 99% chinese, and that the Fengtian clique's opposition was the KMT, not the Republic of China.

Lol

How's that bllwt wound in your neck doing?

*bullet

Yeah

smelly head

Surprised to see you here, Bo

Potential scenario for a hoi4 MP eh Bo?

Bo 😍😍

Yooooooo

A new video about the civil War should be released soon. Check his Twitter

what happened to him

@@jacksoncross9265 I have no idea... my father passed away very recently and we would love watching and then discussing potential history videos. I was reflecting on this when I posted this. That is all.

ru-vid.com/video/%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BE-oKJZypn4Erw.html

And both still have the sma mindset. BASED indeed

@@kylekevin9651 stop

username checks out

@@notaname1750 ru-vid.com/video/%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BE-oKJZypn4Erw.html

I didnt make past 5 seconds without weezing

Now that Enlisted is in closed beta (and looking really good), I'm hoping the Sino-Japanese war gets onto the post-development roadmap. Gaijin already added it to War Thunder, so Enlisted might finally be the shooter that acknowledges that the war consisted of more than the eastern front, western front, and pacific. Even Enlisted's choice of starting out with an eastern front focus is _rare_

@@bobmcbob49 It is made by Latvians after all. I'm sure the Eastern Front is a little closer to home.

Thats because sources in English are very rare and outdated. Nobody speaking Japanese for example would use the term three alls (三光作戦 doesnt make any sense and wasnt a term Japan ever used) anymore (and not saying the Japanese didnt do horrible scorched earth politics,they simply didnt call it that way). And modern Chinese sources aren’t translated regularly since they distort history in a way that makes the communists look better than the national Chinese…

@CKS1949 they even tried to describe the civilian deaths in Okinawa as American mass murder, when the truth is half of those civilians died from starvation due to the Japanese hoarding every bit of food they could find for their starving army, and most of the rest died from just how bitter the fighting was in general, not civilians being targeted, but civilians being caught in the crosshairs of probably the deadliest battle of the War In The Pacific, not to mention all of them that committed suicide, via Japanese anti-American propaganda. Know What I Mean?

Really, the way so many modern Japanese still cling on to the old, "Japan wanted to free Asia from Western Imperialism" line, reminds me so much of the old "Lost Cause" mentality in some places in the American South. Know What I Mean?

Yuck

when I visited the Hiroshima Peace Memorial Museum a lot of things were conveniently left out to make it seem like the bombing was completely unprovoked

"The Allies did war crimes too!" Yeah, if I murder a murderer, I still go to jail. If I'm found not guilty of it, that doesn't make the other guy not a murderer. What's your point?

Pont Saint Louis: Italian Hail Mary

Little boy the US hail mary

@@drake1896 That's not a hail mary. A hail mary is a desperate last resort. The atom bomb was dropped to ensure victory. It was the extra point after the touchdown known as the Battle of Okinawa, putting the US ahead of Team Japan by 14 points.

@@lelouchvibritannia4028Battle of the Bulge is the German Hail Mary

he'll be back by Christmas!

If you want a bit more in depth look at Ichi-Go and the China theater as a whole, Military History Visualized has 2 or 3 videos discussing the topic with someone else.

*Turkey shoot noises*

yeah do you know what happened to him?

That's an... interesting assertion in a timeline that includes both a Thirty Years' War _and_ a Hundred Years' War. And even if you're limiting yourself to post industrial revolution, it's probably worth pointing out that the Japanese invasion of Manchuria had celebrated its tenth anniversary before Pearl Harbor.

no, it depends on the resources... most of the Chinese Civil Wae was sustained for 22 years, and when it ended the CCP still had high morale

@@boobah5643 If I may, I'll point out I said "unsustainible" not that such a conflict were impossible.

@@shinybreloom4027 I'm talking your average country. The Japanese had an overall good strategy, but there are only so many soldiers you can conscript before you've depleted the manpower of your nation, then you go kaphut. China, sure, China has the biggest population in the entire world, which is why it could get away with so long a war.

@@boobah5643 The Thirty and Hundred years' war were not wars in the modern sense, with soldiers being deployed on campaign until war's end. Those were wars in which both sides sent their armies home occasionally, and were engaged in medival style battles, as opposed to constant fighting. Populace's were far less likely to develop war fatigue, seeing as they were also far from the conflict, and not under threat in any way.

Modern china wants to be over the US.

@@goshawk4340 commies

Great book and it’s a good stepping stone for understanding why modern China hates the west

R.O.C (Taiwan): you guys don't like communist China ? I mean .... I'm still here !!

@@user-yurithehippo2000 You mean the island that is trying to de-Sinicize itself? No siree. Nowadays ROC or Taiwan or whatever you want to call it, revised its history and want to cut loose Chinese element eventhough the official language is Mandarin and more than 95% are Han Chinese.

Holy shit, i saw...

Bro, you see like his limbs rain down. Good lord...

@@Elderrion Everyone moved on like nothing happened too. Whoever that dude is definitely is in a unmarked grave.

@@justanothernumber5567 perhaps, still though, I wouldn't want the last thing going through my head to be my ass

@@Elderrion yes true, looks like it was two of them actually

Finnish tanks when?

@@andyjim1734 I think he did that in the minor axis tanks vid

@@mrlumbaki4564 He didn't. He left Finland out because it might be a topic for a future video even though the Finnish tank meme would be just showing a tank, then putting a picture of a thinking man with McGyver theme song playing and ending with a picture of slightly "better" tank.

@@Pikkabuu well good to know that there's gonna be another meme tank episode

When the japanese win the war in the pacific. Any day now.

@@purplebutterfly5407 LETS GO

China back in the 1940s was less tense than todays Communist China. China was super beautiful, and is still beautiful today.

Heh 69th like

There is a new video out on his Patreon!

True

Wait, which one? Haven't been keeping up

@@farmerboy916 M79 grenade launcher

@Lmao Phaosr human wave assault in a nutshell is sending thousands of troops into large machine gun fire technically.

@Lmao Phaosr Didn't Iran use it during the Iran - Iraq War ??? Also China still use it a lot during those Sino wars against Japan. You could also argue Battle of Kursk is also like a human wave assault (I know its not really a human wave assault but it was a slug feast).

@Lmao Phaosr You can also consider Japanese Banzai charge as a human wave assault, along with North Korean attacks during the Korean War.

@Lmao Phaosr They say human wave assault includes large amount of attackers to overrun the the defenders. it doesn't have to be a tight formation. Also the Japanese Banzai attacks are technically human wave assault as they attack in large numbers (like you see in Hacksaw Ridge if you watch it) and the use bayonets against the defender.

A new video about the civil War should be released soon. Check his Twitter

@@purplebutterfly5407 ok awesome! For the record I don't blame the guy, I certainly don't feel entitled to content and I'm sure he's been busy. I think taking a break from content production prevents burnout and allows the content that is produced eventually to be of much higher quality instead of mass-producing garbage. If his content quality dropped I wouldn't be glad there's more of it, I'd just stop watching cause I'd lose interest.

He is becoming a weeb😪

Ah, I see I'm not the only fan of both.

It's weird how they are forgotten like that when they are so important to that theatre.