I knew you and I were going to be great friends for a long time when you refused to sell me a Purple Welsh Slate years ago, I can't thank you enough, I really mean that Bro.
Have had many variants/colors/veins of 'Vermont' slate over the years along with slate from all over the world, the USA, etc. I'd say that 99% serve as a mid-range stone. Very few examples of slate from anywhere rate as even a plausible finisher.
After some more research into UK slate, it seems highly likely these Welsh Slates from AJ are Penrhyn Heather Slate from the northern Snowdonia quarry rather than Alberllefenni (Dragon's Tongue) or the original dark purple Llyn Melyllyn. The brighter purple color and the green spots seem to be indicative of that identification. Rodger at Inigo Jones cuts them. I remembered this video upon learning it so thought I would drop a line. Given its titled "Purple Welsh Slate" it's still accurate of course!
When AJ started selling these, he didn't put a name on them. It was only after I tipped him off to the existence of the purple Yellow Lake stones, and then a lengthy discussion with Neil Miller - that they suddenly became Llyn Melyllyn stones. At that time we all knew they were being cut from reclaimed slabs of unknown origin. Most of us didn't care about him assuming the name for this stone. The marketing shenanigans surrounding the LM's, Salmens stones in general, Yellow Lakes, etc were well documented so getting in a lather over 'accuracy' wasn't a rewarding position.
the greenish bits are not so hard as the rest, when I was punching countersunk nail holes, it just turns to dust sililently, unlike the plum coloured part, where you can hear the crunch ( laminate density ) as you make the nail holes, with a tapered square rotating slate holer, I am talking roofing slates, which is the main use of this slate, and nobody sould have to apologise, for speaking the truth, so am please that you * speak as you find * turning fantasy into reality.
How are these whetstones? Is there a difference between LLyn and Yellow Lake? How does the 15k feel when shaving? Would you recommend buying all three stones or separately?
Sharpening stones are whet stones. Whet - means sharpen. I might review the 15k stone some other day, maybe. the examples I tried were not good finishers. The story of Yellow Lake, the stone and the place, and the LLyn M stones is long and confusing. Suffice to say that this stone in this video is not a branded stone, the seller gets his supply from reclamation yards so we really don't know where it came from. Most of that isn't important though, what matters is how it works, and this sellers purple stones are 'decent' finishers for the $$.
Hello Keith. I was curious, have you tried the Vermont slate yet? It comes in Green, Purple, and a mottled version. Sorry if you've already covered the Vermont stones, I'll take a look at you videos and see if I can find something on it.
I've had a ton of Vermont slate here - have a friend in the business who's family owns a quarry on the Vermont border. He's looking for a particular vein for me but no luck yet. About 90% of the stone I've come across has been 'Meh' at best. There's a lot to know about slate actually, depending on which deposit/formation the example comes from dictates a lot. The fact that a piece of slate is purple, and from Vermont, doesn't really mean a whole lot in our arena. There is one particular location in New England that holds legit promise though, based on actual geological data. But, no luck as of yet. I think if I go there I'll be able to source what I'm looking for. I'm not all that much in love with slate as a finishing stone to go that out of my way to get some rocks though. Once in a while I've found a piece of 'whatever' slate that's good-enough, sure - I had a box of samples sent to me 2 years ago, must have been 100 pieces in the box. Two pieces, black/grey type, showed promise. But ordering another piece of the same color did not return the same result. Some random person on the internet sent me a piece of purple slate, said it was the best thing since sliced bread for razors. It wasn't, I sent it back and now he's mad as hell at me for not agreeing with him. Same b/s went on with the Zulu, which is another type of slate - and also a very 'meh' stone.
@@KeithVJohnson1 - I spoke with a guy who sources his Vermont stones directly from the mine, they cut the stones for him, even chamfer the edges free of charge. He laps them himself. I guess he feels he can surface the stone better then they can. He was a very nice guy, I'm just not super interested. My passion is Japanese stones, thanks to a good friend of mine introducing them to me, and watching your videos whenever I get the chance. If I do go the slate route, I'd like to try a Thuringian stone. It doesn't have to be an Escher or anything, just a good stone for finishing razors on. I still haven't had the pleasure of trying a hard black ark yet, nor the translucent arks, so the Vermont hones are low on my list at the moment. I do all of my honing on Jnats and Asano stamped nagura (Shapton 1.5k for bevel set at the moment) and I'm still learning, and I imagine I'll be learning new things about these stones for years to come. What characteristic are you looking for specifically, in regards to the Vermont slate?
@@Greyswyndir Looking for stone that's worth the effort or the $$. I can get slate chunks from the tile shop in Brooklyn for free and they're identical to the slate from NE.
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I have the same opinion in part. The llyn melinlllyn works fine with oil. With water or slurry is quite meh
We don't really know if the Purple Welsh Slates sold on Ebay were actually Llyn M, so there's that. Having experienced my best results on AJs Purple stones with razors honed on water, light slurry, I go that route. Lotta people like oil on slate, but oil does only reduces friction. My touch is extemely light so I get the same results either way. I just don't like having oil soaked stones around. It becomes a matter of preference and honing technique. Either way though, they're more of a budget option than something I want to rely on.
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@@KeithVJohnson1 I have both. The old one made by Salmen (I think that was the name of the company) and a "New" one. I need still to check both stones, i mean, compare under the microscope.
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The new one grates the edge if the slurry is too dense. With clean water, maybe the llyn melynllin is fine but in mi opinion it's not very fine. Only with oil i had the best results. The edge has stretch marks but i couldn't see scratchs
I've had both also, was just clarifying for readers following the conversation that this video was about the 'generic' variety. Salmens did a lot of shady stuff with labeling, and JJ's sources were reclamation yards... so one day maybe one stone was from source A, then tomorrow another stone from elsewhere. Purple slate from across Europe is very similar too, if not exact. It's really hard to pin this stuff down. Thing is, I've had 4-5 boxed/labeled Llyn M stones and side by side they all look, work, and feel different. Same with JJs stuff. making a definite comparison and ID would require carbon dating, and spectral analysis.
@ some Salmens stones behave that same way, and some of JJs do better. A lot has to do with trchnique and sample size, most slate is not always consistent, neither are a lot of vendors. this is one reason why I dont bother with it for the most part. I just had a small piece from JJs old inventory, was as clean as could be. Natural stones vary.
Very interesting I've had one off AJ for 6 years I guess I got a really good one when sharpening my Japanese knives I use a 3000/8000 whetstone and finish on this for a finer result.. I was thinking of looking into his grey 15k but now I'm not so sure if it would be better than the "12k" I've got are there any slates or that in which would give a really good result over the "12k purple lyn" I was thinking of some jnat stone possibly as a finisher chasing up the perfect tooth to smooth racio
Very difficult to answer that succinctly - impossible actually. Between variables in stones and user's skill sets, there is just too much to factor into the equation. Buying a Jnat isn't an end-all solution, there are a billion types of stone from Japan, and results are as much skill related as they are stone-quality related and steel-dependent. You might want to try using your purple stone's opposite side polished to a higher level first. Maybe try a nice Ark from Dans.
Been following your videos for a while now and put it to the test on my Ralf Aust 7/8. I was having trouble getting a good edge. But with your guidance I've just had the best shave ever. Well done 👌👌👍👍👍
If you are talking about inexpensive naturals - the purple slate is a plausible finisher. So is the Vermio hone. I usually don't deal in either usually but I did just sell the purple slate from this video. Coticules are another option, so are Jnats and Eschers. You might want to check my Etsy shop (link in description) to see what is there.
Great color to the stone, if I can find one at a good price I would add it in. But like you said it's almost more in shipping than the stone. Also a little off topic but on that Escher, what's your preferred method of sealing labels on old ones like that, or it looked sealed to me anyways? Laqcuer, shellac, nail polish? One more durable or "seal" better with residual oil?
I don't recommend any sealers for labels on Eschers - different lacquers and enamels can make the ink run. It's hit-miss and if you miss it's an expensive mistake.
Hey John...I've sealed an Escher with clear two part epoxy. When I received the stone the "Manufactured expressly for S R D in NY. by E. S" sticker on the end was pealing off. I knew it was only a matter of a few uses and it would've been completely gone. So...with absolutely nothing to lose...I sealed it and it worked perfectly. Two caveats: First...I paid a Thuringian...rather than Escher price for the stone. Secondly...I've only tried this on an end sticker...I have know idea how it would perform on the really large face stickers. I would test run the epoxy on something disposable to make sure you like the clarity of dried product. But...it's been 3 years and dozens of uses...and the color and script are still crisp and clear...so I count it as a success. Best of luck...these decisions can be tough!!!
That's a beautiful stone. Love the purple color. Shame it is not to your liking. You say the edge is ragged? Is there a stone you could go to after this to truly finish with, or is that not something you would personally do?
Hi Mike, thanks for watching! IMO - there really is no point in adding a stone to counteract the liabilities of this one. Better to just take this out of the scenario and use the better stone that doesn't leave distractions along the edge.
I'll take a jnat and mikawa shiro all day, every day before I spend a penny on these Welch slate stones. when I first started honing I saw them, and read those k numbers. so tempted, and that's why it's messed up. unsuspecting new honers are going to end up spinning their wheels and walking away. to me that makes the whole thing malicious, because I feel like the srp fan boys, and the vendor know that it'll be mostly low budget and new guys. in either instance, it's fucked up. great video Keith, as usual. keep it up man.
Hi keith... As always enjoyed your video.. I bought the 3 whelsh stones The dragon tongues, the Llynn, and the dark grey/green.. You said that you don't think the grits are what the stones are sold for but probably less right ? But could you please tell me your thoughts of the approximatif grit for these 3 stones because I want to be sure.. Thanks for your answer. By the way my Llynn purple is really really hard to slurry... Don't know why.
Hi, thank you for watching and the nice comment too !! About slurryhing the purple stones - sometimes people finish lap slates with too fine a grit and then they're polished and making slurry is difficult. They are sort of a hard type of stone so they do take a bit of effort to slurry. I feel that most people are probably better off not slurrying that one though.The slurry makes it more faster but coarser too.... The concept of grit applies to synthetics, and it really cant' really be pinned down on natural stones. So, I never say this/that natural hone is xyz grit. What I find is that the DT is truly a mid range stone, and the black/green is more of a burnisher than an actual hone. The purple stone was a plausible finisher; it's a serviceable option but marginally so.
ok so is this same thing as a Llyn Melynllyn ? does it not come from same place? is it comparable to a blue belgian? can u over hone to a wire edge with this?
Llyn M hones came from a specific quarry in Snowdonia. The purple hones in the video were sourced from reclamation yards. Because purple slate is quarried in so many places, there is no way to know where these stones came from originally. Without a box or label, there is no provenance for origin. So just like a piece of slate from Home Depot is not the same thing as an Escher, these stones are not the same thing as a Llyn M. Belgian Blue stones are a totally different stone. Welsh slate are, well, slate and the abrasive is silica. Slate is defined by particle size; that data is easy enough to look up The abrasive in Belgian Blue stones is garnet, not silica, and the science behind those stones is easily accessible also. Totally different stones in every way. I would say that most slate hones (e.g. Escher hones) are not, generally, susceptible to creating a wire edge. But, In a geological sense, the term slate covers a lot of ground so it would be foolish to make a blanket statement here.
@@KeithVJohnson1 cool. ok but since we dont rate these with grits, i know garnets are different, but in comparison to puttin edge on what other stone would u compare it to?
@Jack not 'grit rating' - particle size and type - being different, they are going to leave different 'fingerprints'. What you compare it to depends on what one's skills, knowledge-base and experiences are. For me, these Purple stones most closely resemble, in performance and feel, some no-name Eastern European slate hones that are very dark, dense and hard. Some Vermont slate samples are similar also. .
@@KeithVJohnson1 u seem to really know ur stuff and well balanced in the way u talk about the stones. i know escher sold good thuringians, but iv read everywhere that the yellow green thuringians are way better than the dark thuringians. is this true? if that is true then any yellow green thuringian would be finer than any dark escher labeled stone for big money , yes ,no?
My dragon tongue is rad. It seems that I cannot finish on lighter, newer steel but classic heavier blades finish excellent. I know that sounds odd but that's the way it works for me.
Keith, you may want to try a bit of some Smith's honing solution , both with a slurry mix and just the water and solution. I find that to work nicely with my Charn.
Hi, I'm not really a fan of Smiths or making slurry with an oil as the vehicle. Charns are way less porous and a completely different type of stone though. Using oil on slates like this Welsh hone usually clogs it and winds up making a mess of things. If you read the label on an Escher, which is also a slate hone, it says clearly to NOT use oil or grease. When I do use a honing medium, it's on a harder way less porous substrate; I have a special blend that I cooked up myself but I would never be inclined to use it or any other type of oil on a slate hone of any kind.
It's not that simple - as hardness increases and the process of diagenesis continues, the particle grain size increases. That, however, does not mean that the stone will always have a 'lower grit' - the concept of grit does not apply to natural stones, and this is partly the reason why. You can have very fine softer slate, and very fine harder slate too.
Felt very similar on this one. It's almost like a slightly finer CNat, still toothy to me. Sold it too. If I didn't have money to buy better hones I would hang onto it.
As usual , informative , detailed , reasoned , a fascinating subject , thanks for enabling me to make informed decisions before making a purchase . You are a dam good allround chap !
I've been using the purple recently, one side is lapped to 600 wet/dry and the other side lapped with the Norton Flattening Stone (SiC). For me it works quite well, I've honed on it with both oil and water and water is definitely the way to go, or even better with a bit of lather on the final laps. The edges are as you said very crispy, a good stropping on linen will help, maybe even paste but I'm trying to stay away from pastes atm.
They're ok stones when/if you get a good one. Not all of them are the same it seems - to be expected. The price is ok, the seller is ok, so if it works for someone so be it. I'm not a big fan but out of all the stones that are 'new to the market' over the last 10 yr or so, this one is fairly reliable as a bargain option and much better than the rest of new jack rocks.
@@KeithVJohnson1 Do you know anything about the old quarries in Europe, where Eschers, Charnley's, etc and why they closed? I've seen people say that some ran out of stone and the like but doesn't seem feasible to me. I wonder if anyone has ever looked into starting up some of these quarries.
@@temhawpin That is another topic for another day on another video. That being said, there are a a few sources on the internet that outline some of the different quarries, their history, etc. I do not save links to those sites but I would expect that some Google Fu would bring some decent returns.
Maybe, not sure - it's impossible to keep up with AJ and his slate hone production.. I have had a grey hone from him but it was most definiteley not a 'Yellow Lake' and it wasn't a great finisher either.... but maybe you had/have a different stone... no way to know.
Thanks for all your answers Keith please could you tell me more about the stone in the box you're talking about at the end of the video ?.. We can find it and if yes where ???
Great info Keith and yes I was that guy inquiring about the ark slurry lol and yes I trashed my edge lol keep em coming and also your opinion pls bout bbw ty
Well, you were one of the guys asking about that - it's a pretty common topic that comes up often actually. BBW is cheap, slow, bascially useless if you have a piece of yellow coticule on hand. I've never experienced what I'd call a good shaving edge off one but there are people that swear it's possible.
Great video! It's funny how things get hyped up, and then no one wants to look at reality. I have the Dragons Tongue and the Purple Welsh, and I do know they work well for pocket knives.
It's my understanding that the Miniog are cut from the same slate stock as Dragon's Tongue stones. The quarry associated with that name is no longer actually mining stone, but they do cut stock from other active quarries. If a Miniog comes across my desk I'd try it out but thus far, all of the black Welsh Slate has been underwhelming and i don't bother looking into them anymore.
Pretty much exactly the same way, the only difference is that the naniwa is softer so it will usually need less work, and the working surface doesn't need to be fussed over as much because Nani's sorta heal themselves. Slate stones are usually harder, and getting rid of scratches can be more work. The mechanics are the same - it's just how much of the mechanics will apply to which stone and when.
Keith V. Johnson Thanks for the info I have just purchased this stone as a kind of experiment really to see what edge I get off it. Would you recommend using a pasted strop after or just finish on the stone.
Nice video Keith! I didn´t like the edges either, they are sharp enough but not very comfortable. I managed to smooth out the edge by using a very fine tomo nagura and finish with a very thin transparent slurry. But this tomo seems to be a rarity. From ten tomos I have tested, only 2 were good to finish a razor on slurry. Well, I do not get a real laser beam edge, but definitely a good shaving edge this way. I think they are beautiful with this lines and green spots. Here is a picture of my stone. picload.org/view/rwddoiwr/prpleslate.jpg.html
Is the purple welsh slate a good starter stone for finishing then? I’m in the uk and can’t find the guy your talking about but was looking at maybe getting one as I have only been honing for a few weeks. Great videos by the way
Thank you for watching and commenting! That guy is on ebay, search for - Welsh slate hone - and you’ll find him. The purple hones he sells have been ok.
Hey, I just received one of these purple stones from aj, wish id found this video a few days ago... just getting in to straight razors, currently honing on a cheap £10 3k/8k ebay stone and had planned to finish on this before moving to a strop... any advice for preparing this stone for use finishing? Can you recommend any other stones for fine honing on a budget?
HI, thank you for watching and commenting. I would assume you'll need to lap your stone before use, so look into your options there. As for stones on a budget, everyone's budget is different. Personally, I focus on value, not price. The best advice out there is this... before you start wondering about other stones, learn the one you have. Happy Honing!
@@KeithVJohnson1 thanks for the speedy reply. It does require some lapping, iv ran a norton ib8 india over it and corse medium and fine dmt plates over it, all the machine marks are gone but it still needs some flattening. Iv been able to get a good edge on my razor, just needs a good strop and ill report back how it turns out.
@keith v. Johnson finished lapping the stone last night, had my first shave straight off it. Great experience, may need some more practice to refine the edge a little better or move to the strop. Sent aj my feedback on the hone, received a friendly reply in return. Hopefully this may help improve others experience using these stones. Would definitely buy from him in future. Is working up a slurry on the stone likely to help further refine my razors edge or just speed up the cutting? I dont think I need any more time on lower grit stones as I tend to run the blade on at least 20 passes with each stone. Any input on improving my process would be appreciated.
If your razor is honed correctly, then using slurry on that stone will dull your edge. I can't comment on your process because I have no way to judge your edge. Only you can tell us if you're shaving well or not!
@@KeithVJohnson1 this is the first razor iv honed and the results dont seem to bad, it is a little scratchy but cuts fairly easily through my rather fine hair so hopefully it will improve faster than my beard thickens :-)... under magnification the bevel has a lot of fairly deep looking scratch marks deeper than I would have expected from 3 or 8k that dont really improve as I move up the stones... is it likely I need to move back to a 1k for more work before refining on my 3, 8 or slate? I assume stropping would help align the edge more but I want to get my stone work right before I progress further.
