In fact all Manual Transmissions can be shifted without clutch. Up and down. It does not hurt if done correctly. Similar to quickshifter or blipper on bikes. The magic lies within synchronized gears.
Another thing I love from Assetto Corsa is that if you have a full setup (wheel, H-shifter and clutch), you can only use h-shifter on cars that use it in real life. And you can only use sequential shifting in cars that use sequential in real life too.
@@piericroussel7479 but the intention of the game is to have the car work like real life which amazes me cz I like authenticity and hate to look up every race category what transmission or driving aids they use, I just want to drive like the real life discipline is
I was disappointed by PCars 2 doesn't differentiate H-shifter cars just like AC, and also allows shifting without clutch. Just made me feel unnecessary to do some clutch-shifting.
Press start engine with 1st gear or above and without clutch disengaged. They do jump, It's really a shame that Project CARS 2 always applies auto clutch when shifting without clutch. as I remember, auto clutch when shifting must be off by pressing a key on keyboard.
Gran Turismo and IRacing sort of have it right. If the engine and transmission speeds are not synchronized, you might get locked out of the gear and will be stuck in neutral until corrected. It will feel like a wall is there until they are close to matching even though it's possible to force it, then that's when damage occurs. I think this implementations is because a controller shifter has no mechanical feedback so there's nothing to physically lock you out from shifting or feeling the grind of partially engaged gears. AC takes the route of damage because there's nothing physically stopping you for forcing it into gear.
Yeah, if you shift very slowly and carefully, then gt and iracing are technically right. But if you hammer on the gears in the sim like a lot of people do, then AC is more accurate. PC2 also shreds your gearbox if you shift without clutch, he must have had damage off. That said, if you do it just right, you can shift a manual transmission, and even start it, without the clutch. Have had to do it on my E36 when the clutch pedal went out on the highway.
I had a old Ford Escort and learned to shift the gear without th e clutch, one tim e it saved me when the clutch cable broke,and I managed to bring it back home running. Now I have a Corsa B and only can put it in neutral without the clutch. I don't want to force it, the repair is ducking expensive... Both of the games are right, it's different from car to car.
Surprising Forza Motorsport (I'm not sure which, I think it's FM3) has a really good clutch system including clutch damage. I'm not sure if it still apply for FM7 since the physic has been simplify for... ahem... Horizon racers.
@@DobieMeltfire Ah yes, the dastardly Horizon players. They are the scum of the earth for they play an arcade game. If I came across as an arsehole, I'm sorry, I didn't mean to. It's just that your reaction to the thought of Horizon racers was a bit silly, but I think it's perfectly fine if you don't like Horizon.
pc2 even allows you to push-start the car, just tested it on a steep location on the ring, turn off your car, put it in 2nd gear and hold your clutch until you reach about 10km/h, then quickly release your clutch, your engine should be running
The iRacing upshift is actually alright. you CAN force higher gear in without using clutch if you relase the throttle. And you can also properly upshift and downshift (downshift is MUCH harder) without clutch with synchronized gearbox. This doesn't work with full-on race cars though, as they usually have straight cut gears and no synchros. If you want to learn to shift without clutch in real life, get a 80's Nissan. Really easy and simple to do.
In assetto corsa, kunos cars can start from 0 rpm (Engine off) because the torque figure is set up to actually produce power even with the engine stalled. If the torque value is set on 0 at 0 rpm, the car won't start, unless you press the clutch or disengage the transmission. I don't know why kunos chosed to put torque at 0 rpm, but the simulation model on assetto still acts real when everything is set correctly. There are car mods that can prove what I'm saying
@@SheetFiber never heard a starter sound on assetto corsa unfortunally, if I'm not wrong the Ford focus made by beto is a good example. You can find it at bz simworks of facebook
@@Paoktsisgat4 but does your car start when you apply the throttle without turning the key, pressing the starter button, whatever you have?
5 лет назад
For the first test: why does iracing get a pass and wreckfest a fail when they both do the exact same thing? Also: nothing strange for the 3rd test with iRacing, you can shift without a clutch. just have to find the right rev to synch the gearbox and engine. (that's why you could pass some gears but not some others, not the right rev for the speed) Also, PC2 you get transmission damage for shifting without clutch.. you just don't have damage on. IMO, FInal results should be : 6 - 6 -7 - 5 -2 .
Also project cars2 he complained how it shifts slow when he has it set like that🤦🏻♂️🤦🏻♂️ it's set at 50 default which is super slow anyone who plays the game puts it at 0 or like 5 lol.
Test 4, iRacing. That's a pass. In a real car you csn shift without the clutch if you match the revs. I have owned cars where the clutch cable broke leaving the clutch unable to disengage. The test passed because if you let off of the accelerator pull the stick out of gear and hold it down against the next gear while leaving your foot off the accelerator it will eventually drop into the next year when the revs are matched between the engine and the gearbox. Watching your test run iRacing simulated this perfectly. Try it multiple times in a row in the same car (in game) going between the same two gears. It should be possible to shift both up and down without using the clutch provided that the game simulates the proper delay and it should give you a slight gear grinding sound. the up shift will leave a delay before switching into the next gear. downshifting should work if you heel toe without using the clutch but again there should be a delay until the RPMs drop down before going into gear. in both cases the car should visibly jerk a little. in a real car to shift without using the clutch you want to pull it out of gear as you're letting your foot off the accelerator and without pushing the clutch. Then hold the stick against the next gear with light pressure. As the RPMs fall the stick will eventually plunk into the gear. downshifting is the same except you must rev the the engine up since the target RPM for the Rev match is higher than the current RPM. other than that the process is exactly the same hold it against the gear and wait for the RPMs to drop and it will plunk in. just to be clear folks this is not a suggested activity this is scientific data. if you go out and ruin your car trying to reproduce What I described above it's your own dumbass fault. this is one of those emergency techniques that you use to get an already ruined car home. Then you forgot one test. stopping the car in gear without pushing in the clutch. of course you know it should lunging jerk to a stop killing the engine. thanks for the great science I wish I could have written this in Italian.
You're right, you can shift without the clutch if revs are matching, however sim games do't really have "pushing gently on the stick" you can just stick it into gear, if you try to do it without rev matching you should get transmission damage (not a broken one straight away ofc) as long as the revs aren't close enough, and when they are close enough the car goes into gear. So it shouldn't really just wait gently in neutral until revs are close enough. (so basically the same system as in iRacing but with transmission damage added)
Ti faccio un sunto del fenomeno perché forse in italiano ti è più facile. Quando i giri dell'albero motore si eguagliano a quelli dell'albero di trasmissione è possibile anche irl cambiare senza frizione, questo fenomeno avviene circa a 2000-2500 giri per le utilitarie quindi se ne hai una puoi provarci! A me è capitato per 2 giorni di doverlo fare perché si ruppe lo spingidisco e in alcuni casi, sopratutto con la scalata era necessario.
Well you know its pretty simple. By pressing the clutch you disconnect the engine from the gearbox, so the engine now can rev as high or low as it wants, the gearbox isnt affected and spins just as fast as it would if the throttle was released, which means a gear change is possible anyway ^^
If you just set the damage as ON on PC2, it will not be realistic damage. Change it to "realistic". Then you will see the damage being done to the clutch. But not only that, you will see fuel consumption, tyre degradation, aero damages (even the slightest ones) all get realistic.
@@arthurmendes6323 yes everything is as real as it gets. You can try for yourself. I'd be amused if you get the car fail to shift or wreck the gearbox at any rpm without pressing clutch
Been there, done that. With the Damage set on "Realistic", auto-clutch set as off, if I did not rev-match the tranny and the engine, tranny damage. Try it. Don't be an AC fanboy.
PC2 actually had proper clutch behavior with auto clutch off at release. In addition, shift times varied depending on the car so that it took a bit of time for the transmission to get into gear after moving the shifter. People complained about not being able to row through the gears at lightspeed in the 66 mustang or whatever and got rid of the shift times and SMS dumbed down the clutch behavior.
Can confirm. Clutch went out, drove 200km like that on the autobahn anyway. Just do it right, there is still risk of damage but it's not catastrophic. I still have the gearbox with 360.000km
Not sure If I understand what video creator meant but in real life you can start a car while it is on 1st gear without pressing clutch. Give it throttle and start engine it will move :) It is common technique if someone have problems with clutch. Gears can be changed without clutch at specific RPM.
What happens when one tries starting the engine while in first gear in a stick shift, depends also on the region the car is sold. Some US market stick shift cars won't engage the starter until the clutch and/or brake is applied. This is not a mechanical limitation but a built-in safety feature to prevent accidental rollout. However, most models sold on European markets will engage the starter unconditionally. This makes it possible to escape from situations where the engine has stalled/malfunctioned on a ciritical spot, e.g. a railroad crossing. Most starters are geared to be able to reach the engine operational RPM (around 120 RPM is good enough to bring it up to idle speed) in first gear even while the car is only powered by the starter. Since the starter motor and battery sees a wide band of operational conditions (e.g. -30 degC oil with a weak battery), they are well over-geared in starting RPM. I knew someone who lost the clutch on his diesel van and he made it home by staying in second gear, killing the engine on traffic lights by braking and rolling out with the starter. I'm not saying it's good for the starter but it can definitely do it. So, in a simulation I would expect a powerful car to roll out and reach idle by cranking in first. Of course not full throttle, as some of the cars interpret cranking+flooring = flood clear, so no fuel is injected.
when you change gear without clutch, it even calculates the damage on THAT GEAR, so you can still use the other ones if you did't break them (just like in real life)
@@marziomoretti6167 I don't know if you're talking about rFactor, but if yes BeamNG.drive does it too. It even has a clutch temperature simulation where if it overheats it'll slip like a real one, and you can even damage many engine parts by overheating it.
Just FYI, you can technically start a car with a gear engaged and without pressing the clutch: thing is that it's going to be really jolty and that's going to put a lot of stress on the starter motor. Concerning the clutchless upshifts, they are also possible with consumer grade gearboxes but require a decent grade of finesse: with you feathering the throttle while gently but firmly and usually the gear slides in. Coming to racing grade gearboxes most of them being sequential (and dog leg, back in the day) are "requiring" you to upshift without releasing the throttle and sometimes without even touching the clutch at all :)
You are right! I broke my clutch cable on my old car ones and had to start it in gear and drive a couple of miles home without a clutch. Gearshifts where fine if you just shift carefully and on the right rps.
Also regarding test #4, iRacing is simulating a real shifter. You can shift a real synchromesh equipped car without using the clutch. The synchros will prevent engagement of the desired gear until the input shaft matches the desired gear. With the clutch engaged, this means you must wait on engine RPM to fall for upshifts, or rise for downshifts.
Regarding test #4 for PC2: Automatic clutch only enables you to set off from the standstill without using the clutch pedal - it's an assist that is there so players with 2 pedals can drive at all. And there's a reason PC2 allows you to shift without depressing the clutch: during testing the game had a proper no-clutch shift simulation where the gears would grind and all that stuff (like in Dirt Rally for example) BUT the testers were complaining that the shifts were missing even if they had done it "properly". They found out that they were trying to slam the next gear in without depressing the clutch fully or missing the gear engagement point with the clutch disengagement point so they just did away with this.
Actually, for the 4th test, iRacing and Assetto both allow upshifts without clutch only if you don't press the throttle while in neutral. And in a particular case in iRacing, the Skip Barber doesn't have the auto cut-off when upshifting, despite having a sequential gearbox. You have to do it yourself, or use the clutch. And IRL, it's possible to upshift without the clutch, but it needs a perfect synchronization between gearbox, throttle and RPM. So it's necessary to drive the car (or bike, it works too) for a long time.
So, back again, after a training session with the Lotus 49 on iRacing, and after trying to up and downshift fastly without my clutch (and any assist ofc), I successed at every gear change. it's just, as AC a timing issue.
Yeah, I'd recommend you do test #4 again, it should be possible to engage a gear without using the clutch. However you do need the right engine speed for it to work right. Most 70's and 80's racecars have gearboxes designed in such a way that you can just slam them into the next gear as long as you are not on the throttle. Obviously this only works on upshifts and not downshifts.
Why not put BeamNG.drive for a test some time? It's a pretty solid driving simulator, despite being a bit rough on its edges and has outdated graphics compared to these games.
5 лет назад
Beam NG will shift but give you transmission damage and a warning "use the clutch!" The car would stall if you don't rev it enough when starting like in PC2 wheels locks if you don't heeltoe. SO the result would be : T1 : 2 T2 : 2 T3: Didn't test that T4 : 1, because you can shift, you just take damages.
@ thats the point of the last test (t4) to see if the transmission takes damage like in real life when you shift without using the clutch... Beam would get a perfect score on that cause it even calculates how much damage you take and you can even destroy the entire transmission...
@ also test 3 is a perfect pass as well... You can shift with the throttle fully pressed and it works just fine... Depending on the car and engine you could in pass the red line and damage the engine xD
in every car with manual gearbox, it actually works to upshift without using clutch, but you have to release gas and then push the next gear and wait for revs to synchronize
14:40 iRacing: if you keep the shifter in gear, iRacing simulates you pushing the shifter the entire time. when the RPM sink and reach a level where the synchros can grab the gears, it will slide into gear. It will also do this with sequential gear boxes if you hold your sequential shifter or shift paddle in the position. For example if you forget to shift into 1st before the start, in the Skip Barber, and you rev the engine and then pull the shift paddle, you will hear a grinding noise. Hold the paddle down while the RPM drop and you will hear the pitch of the grinding tone down. When you are only a little bit over the idle RPM the gearbox will suddenly slip into the gear and the car slightly launches forward. That is, in my eyes, a very cool implementation.
I think since the cars usually just dont react to having it in gear and releasing the clutch there is no biting point as well as in the cars that die they only feel that the clutch is either in or out not so much where its grabbing
Yes, you finally made this video! I asked you a long, long time ago whether you noticed the problem with auto-clutch in pc2. Apparently the "shifting with no clutch" bullshit was done intentionally, and the only thing that auto clutch did is prevent your engine from stopping at low speeds. That was my biggest gripe with the game
Have you tried older cars? Some of them won't let you shift without clutch, and normally newer cars would let you shift without clutch, even in real life, so what you are saying is not exactly at all and sometimes it has happened to me that the game gets bugged (PS4 Version)
There's a ROBLOX game called Project TrackDay, in which you're absolutely unabled to switch gears if you don't release the throttle (unless you're using semi-auto transmission mode)
Clutchless shifting is a technique that is used along with leftfoot brake in rally racing. Check out Team O'Neal Rally School's video. iRacing got it right if you ask me.
In the last test, project cars 2 you had no damage activated look at the right corner at the bottom of the vid, it you had damages ON it should be green, if not it appears blue-cloud, maybe that's why, you didn't break the gearing. hope you retry it cuz i actually dont remember if you can break it!! Retry pleaase! Love your vids! Keep it up!
He Also has his shift time set to 50 which is super slow and then says that's the problem with the game lmao, the first thing I did was put my shift time at 5 some people run 0 so it shifts right away. Kinda bugged me because nobody even noticed it and people who haven't played the game will think shifting is really slow.
As well as the problems that other people have stated. Some cars, mostly diesel can move off from a standstill by just releasing the clutch slowly without using the accelerator at all
On my car (peugeot 207, year 2008, basic model, so the definition of a "normal" car) there is something mechanical that avoids the shifting without clutch BUT only if your rpm are not adequate. You can go to neutral but not insert a gear. This will explain the iRacing slow upshifting case on test 4, there is no hardware that blocks you to inserting the gear so the game is waiting in neutral that the rpm is on a certain range and then insert the new gear when physically possible. The transmission damage on my car are only possible on "half states" like not inserting the gear completely but only halfway before releasing the clutch, or by pressing a bit the friction to unlock that safety hardware but not enough to not scratch. So for me iRacing should be considered passed.
@@piericroussel7479 I had a 306 station wagon before and it didn't have this system. Mine is also the only car i tried that have it, maybe it's pretty rare or limited of a specific year, i really don't know much about it. And personally i also hate it because it sometimes there is a "bug" that doesn't let you to go to neutral without pressing clutch with low rpm and low gears. I always fight with traffic so i need to press clutch every fucking meter just to go to neutral, it's really frustrating. Maybe it's just a bad habit of mine.
My 93 Honda Accord does the same thing. If the RPM's don't match and you try to shift without the clutch, it locks out that gear until the RPM's match close enough to the transmission speed. It will grind a bit if not done perfectly. Had to shift without the clutch to get home when my slave cylinder went out.
The old Suzuki Swift I'm learning on has even a mechanism where Im pressing the clutch to shift back from 2nd to 1st and if you are going "too fast" it will not allow you to put it in gear only just when you are slow enough..
Back when I had my old VW Sedan (the bug), my clutch wire broke off and I had to drive clutchless to get to the mechanic. I found out it is possible to start the engine in gear, I think it was even in second?, so long as there's enough battery to push through the initial rumble.
I think that PC2 should correct that thing about the automatic clutch, its just a quick thing to fix. I'm from Argentina, do you think that i would be able to join the next Car Roulette on PC2?
I thought they fixed it in the recent update. I can’t change gears without the clutch now, though before the update I didn’t even bother to use it, because I knew it wasn’t working.
Umm. Doesnt project cars 2 have 3 settings for the clutch. Off, manual and manual + clutch. Im pretty sure you were only using the manual setting which means you have to switch gears but the clutch is not needed
You should have tested a clutch start (start releasing the clutch slowly) to see if the clutch in racing games is modulated or more like an on/off switch.
In PC2 if i upshift without clutch the engine will go very slow in gear and with a lot of Revs. Also you get a little engine damage. Sorry for english..
on iracing the settings you can change to make everything more realistic. i have it set to where i have to turn the car on, press the clutch, put it into gear VIA h-pattern. then let out correctly, if i stall, i have to repeat the whole process over
5:50 I think this also happens in Forza Motorsport 7. I downshifted while cornering and I spun out. I managed to do it with a controller, so it should work with a wheel setup.
lots of mistakes by you viper. 1. you can release the clutch, slowly, and the vehicle will simply take off, if it is a flat road, the idling engine should make it move off... 2. you can quite easily shift gears without using the clutch. remember, these are RACING games... RACING cars will have a dogbox (use google) you will only need to lift off slightly to change gears. with a throttle cut, you don't even need to lift off... look at something like the v8 supercars foot cam... they shift without using the clutch 3. you can downshift easily with any synchromesh transmission without using the clutch, it requires you to jab the accelerator to match the revs of the engine and the gearbox, and it will simply just go in.
In AC while downshifting you can shake the car down a gear without clutch. :D If you fail to downshift it with rev matching, jab the brake, I found it very amusing for some reason. :D
My dad used to show me he can upshift without pressing the clutch. At a certain rpm, depending on the car, the engine and transmition are syncronized and you can ease your way through the gears without clutch. And it never damanged the transmision cuz he wasnt forcing the upshit. It felt normal, just like he would use the clutch
You should make some videos about BeamNG.drive, maybe compare it with full sims or simply complete some scenario By the way, in iRacing if you don't use the clutch the game selects the gear when the engine speed matches the transmission speed (rev matching, you can do it on every car)
Geez... Get some actual knowledge about cars. If you stall the engine you are not flooding it with fuel, you just overcome the engine torque at low rpm to bring it to a halt, and when an engine comes down to a halt it will not start up on its own. You can start a car up without a clutch if your starter is powerfull enough. Also sometimes the engine doesn't have enough inertia to lock the wheels up when downshifting, so yet another useless test which doesn't proove anything. Shhifting without releasing the gas pedal is in fact ppossible and sometimes used in drag racing so your tests are yet invalid once more. You just have to do it quick enough and in a car with syncromesh trans (nearly every modern road car has one). Shifting without a clutch? Easy, done hat many times even with 20 tons on my hitch and going uphill, little rev matching ans you can do it without any issues. You should have tested BeamNG.drive, as that game has everything you need in a racing game as far as clutch simulation goes
"You can start a car up without a clutch if your starter is powerfull enough" Yeah, that's best way to break your starter if you keep doing that. Then you talk sh*t about my knowledge... "Shifting without releasing the gas pedal is in fact possible" never said it was impossible. Tell me on the video where I told it was impossible in real life. Are you making up excuses just to criticize me? Or simply didn't you pay attention on what you read? "done hat many times even with 20 tons on my hitch and going uphill, little rev matching ans you can do it without any issues" Doing it with a truck is 1 thing. Doing it with a car while racing is a whole different thing. Once again, I never said in real life was impossible.
@@viperconcept noone said that you shouldn't be able to damage the starter by starting without the clutch. Your tests weren't really scientific at all, since you didn't provide an example of doing the exact same thing IRL
Ai Torror if you use the starter multiple times to start moving your car without clutch, yes you damage it. Even my mechanic told me. That makes me doubt about your knowledge. About doing the tests IRL I can't use my car like a lab rat since I need it and I don't have the money to repair it in case of damages. Why don't use your car IRL to use the starter to move the car without clutch? If you're sure that won't cause damage to the starter, do it for about 1 or 2 weeks, or forever if you want. Do it for science. You're so sure about yourself after all, aren't you?
But it is fucking possible or not ? You said in your fucking video that it shouldn't move ! Now your going by mechanics recommendations lool wtf, if we going by that way we shouldn't even fucking RACE !
Most cars can be tuned for flat foot shifting now, be it through N2MB WOT Box or through a tuning handheld. I use my Accessport on my Speed3 and I've got several friends that use a WOT Box.
I drive truck, & when we shift without the clutch it's called "floating the gears". You achieve that by finding the "hole' with the RPM's, kind of like PC2, & iRacing were doing in your test.
brodeur212 Most cars can shift both up and down without clutch. You just have to match the rpm with the gear you want to shift to, then it’s no problem to shift without a clutch, also in a standard manual transmission car.
Every single manual transmission car can, in fact it was the norm before. You just have to do it properly. You can even start without the clutch, but it's even harder than rev-matching.
Wow I can't believe it.. I have Forza Motorsport 3 Motorsport not horizon! It came out 2009! When you shift without clutch you can totally hear the gear grinding and you have 4% damaged transmission = slower shifting if you don't go to pit for fixing it I hope the game developers realize that mistake and make it at least a little realistic in a full sim game....
Nice video! Although I think it fell apart a bit once you were testing shifting w/o a clutch - you can definitely shift without a clutch in real life (just check out one of the many vids on this) so all of these games allowing it is ok, to some degree. The real question is whether the games implemented synchro wear and gear-grinding correctly (when you don't match revs correctly). I like Assetto Corsa's implementation of this quite well.
It's possible. I am used to doing it. You just need to match the RPM's perfectly (and the gearstick will even slide to the next gear, no force needed at all), which, if you're a reasonable driver, you can do it. It's not advisable, of course, but when needed it's handy. (for example: when your clutch breaks and you need do drive it home or to the nearest safe place to fix.
Funny how he doesn't know you can adjust the shift time and then calls it a problem 😂. It's slow because he has it on the default settings of course it shifts slow, you play the game like I do so you know that BS the shifts are very days if set at 0 or 5 or something really low.
What about a test slipping the clutch and pulling away in 2nd/3rd/4th gear? The current tests treat the clutch like a digital switch but what its real analogue aspect?
At the moment I don't have the space nor the money to buy a steering wheel, so I play all my racing and simracing games with keyboard and mouse. If there's an option, I'll always use the clutch in my keyboard. It's tricky because it's or 0 or 1, so most of the times I can't launch my car properly :P. This video is very relevant for me because of this, and it's the first I've seen digging into this aspect, so great job and thank you!
Would like to see if the car will move when you trigger the bitting point of the clutch or they call it “holding point” without pressing the accelerator.
There is indeed a way to change gears without a clutch without any damage to transmition. The way it works is that the gears that actually spin during not pressing the pedal match the speed of the main gear and in that test in the game you can shift gears without the pedal only in the rpm that the gear rotation speed is equal to the main transmition gear rotation speed, and that does not damage any parts tho.
Hey viper when I play gt sport with my g29 and shifter I get transmission damage. You probably didn't turn it on in your room settings. And I get a bad sound when trying to. When I try to shift without clutch
