The best and most granular deep-dive into and down the rocker/camber rabbit hole on RU-vid! Hands down "numero uno" snowboard channel! Keep it up, Lars!
Dang.... That feel nice to read this!! :-) Thank you so much!! Please share your stoke with others. Biggest thing you can do for me!! Thanks again!! I really appreciate your support!
I really appreciate how honest, informative, and humble this video is. The bits of snowboard history pair well with your many years of first hand experience. I have been looking for a channel that dives into the "nuances" without losing sight of the main point. Very good job sir, thank you for your time. I have subscribed for more! P.S. - Last week I ordered a, Lib Tech Skate Banana, as my first snowboard, but the order was canceled because inventory ran out. It was a blessing in disguise because I learned I wanted a board with more traditional camber to help me find an edge and build confidence. This video confirmed my thoughts. Now, I am even more stoked to shred the, Capita Indoor Survival 2024, which is only 4 cm shy of a traditional camber. Wish me luck!
I learnt to ride on an old k2 parkstar. it had a flat to rocker profile and it was the best board profile to learn on in my opinion. I’ve ridden a lot of the Mervin c2 profiles and the uneasiness of the center rocker underfoot on hard pack is the opposite of confidence inspiring.
Thanks Lars. Lots of useful info and history bits. I come from a hard boot background and lots of teaching and instructor training. I was on Burton for years and for the last 5-6 years I've been (re) discovering stuff like Korua and LibTech. I got on a Golden Orca 161 C2 camber last year and suprisignly its one of my favorite carving boards. Nothing like my Café Racer 159 full camber but so much fun. And right in the middle, I like to ride a Burton Fish 156 flat top camber even on the hard pack and trees. So easy to turn with a very cool surfy feeling. So to your point, there is no perfect camber, just use what you're having fun with and/or what works best with the conditions you have that day. Still keeping an eye out for that ''Quiver killer'" board... if such a thing exists.
Just an FYI, the Golden Orca is C2x camber, which is a variation of the C2 with even less rocker and more camber under the feet. I've tried the Golden Orca, and it's a pretty fun ride. The C2 and Banana profiles are a lot more rocker-like, and less versatile profiles, IMO.
Ive had a Lib Tech board with the Bananana Rocker to it, Full traditional Camber boards, and hybrid boards that combine different profiles together and I can say that I preferred the banana rocker when riding Powder as it helped keep the nose up and out of the snow helping the overall float of the board
Detuning the edges at the tip and tail of full camber boards really was a game changer back in the day. It seems to tame the bite when you initiate turns and takes away the feeling of the tip or tail fighting for dominance. Much more balanced feeling.
LONG RANT ALERT: My opinion is the same as yours. I've been an instructor for 27 years, and I am tired of the """experts""" from shops, selling rocker boards to beginners. I like rocker, but in my opinion is for people who are at least mid-high level. Yes, it's very forgiving, but it's total discontrol. On the other hand, camber forces beginners to do the right technique, and they'll increasingly gain control. That's why soft boards with a really mellow camber, exist, aside from the personal preferences (I like soft boards like the old Funslinger or the Tweaker), so beginners can progress in the right way. I have many sotries of clients who wanted to buy gear and they asked me, and I told them exactly the model, size, etc, and I told them, "listen, they are going to try to sell you a rocker board, they are going to say I am wrong if you say that your teacher has told you, so you don't say it, you just go and ask for this model in this size, or similar, and that you want camber if they offer you rocker boards". They always came back telling me how I was right, that they really really tried to sell them a fkg rocker. This is because the Banana made a huge impact, and all the brands started to make rocker boards, till the point that there was a period, like 3 or 4 seasons, that you barely could find a traditional camber board. It was fkg crazy. All of them were either flat, or rocker, and crazy stupid things like that V shape from Burton. One of my clients, a teenager, didn't listen to me and came back with that board, and he ended up renting a regular board because he was absolutely unable to make a basic controlled turn on that thing. I swear to god I really wanted to talk to the guy who convinced him... I don't even use rocker boards when I have to work because when it's not kids, but adults and teenagers, I like to explain how things work and why they work that way, what happens to the board when you do this or that, and why the board does that, and with a rocker is different, and if you are trying to demonstrate with a rocker, they are not going to see it, simply because you are not doing what you told them you were going to show them. That's because 99% of my clients rent the material. From time to time there's someone who came with a rocker board, but it's ok, I adapt the class, but I try to explain to them all what I've said. You don't know how many clients I have had through all these years that were stuck in their level, not progressing, and when I told them to try a camber board and they did, they couldn't believe it. Camber is not so forgiving, but it helps you. It's like the boots, I need really stiff boots, which are not for beginners, but I need them because I need the gear to help me for my riding. I am not a genius like Kevin Jones, who used to ride even without lacing his boots. I can't understand how can you ride like that with loose soft boots. But he is a genius, and I am an average rider. Well camber and rocker are kind of the same issue I think. Maybe camber is less forgiving but it helps you, while rocker forgives you a lot but you need to unlock a certain level to truly progress with it. Of course there are exceptions, and of course I am sure that there are many people who learned with rocker, and they are now really good riders and still like rocker. And that's great, we all are different and our ridings are different, but I think they are the exceptions to the rule, at least for what I've seen thought all these years. Some background about me and why my opinion: Like most of us, I've been a park rat half of my snowboarding life, I am 46 now and I've been snowboarding for 31 years, full seasons, and double seasons. My riding was evolving till the point that I didn't want more rocker, except for powder specific boards, like my beloved Arbor Terrapin, OOOOORRRR, the hybrid combos from Never Summer. I don't know how these people do it but NS boards are fkg amazing. Rocker dominant but feels like camber, a 3/10 of stiffness but huge pop and can handle high speeds... Anyway, as I was saying, I prefer camber, even true twins, even for rare boards designed for off piste, like the Santoku, another one of my all time favs, a strange true twin with big tips and a board that you have to size up and doesn't feel like a titanic under your feet. I was full into the rocker trend back in the day, even though I always recommended camber to my clients because my opinion back then was the same: it's for people who can ride at a certain level already. The forgiving aspect is, in my opinion, a side effect and not at all intended. But now, with the exception of the NS boards, I can't enjoy rocker unless is in deep pow, and I love it. For carving, side hits, park laps, uneven snow, etc, give me camber. Not much, not super stiff, it hasn't to be hyper traditional from contact point to contact point, but give me camber. For splitboarding, you have to have camber if you want a more comfortable (and safe) hike up. But the set back camber and the early rise of the nose is a really good solution. Overall, this is just an opinion based on what I've observed and experienced all these years. After all, I am just a fkg teacher, and you know what they say: If you can't, you teach lol. I have friends my age who are still sending rodeos everywhere and unlike me they don't want to hear about camber, but that's my point: rocker it's not for begginers. But I repeat, IT'S JUST AN OPINION, not the truth. Ok, that's it, sorry for my bad english and the long comment. Oh yeah, sorry, two Big Macs with extra pickles thank you. PS: great video. I love this "nerdy" side of snowboarding. A suggestion for the next one: The true names of grabs, spins, and tweaks. The simple ones, not the double, triple, or quadruple bs of nowadays, which I call flippity floppity spinningy to all of it because I don't even know wtf are they doing anymore lol. Don't get me wrong, I find it impressive of course, it's just that my brain can't decode what is happening lol.
I wouldn't say that Skate Banana or any Flying Vs are actually rockers. Those are very special shapes for experienced riders who are 100% sure that they want exactly those. They are definitely not for beginners. P.S. Talking about rockers presenting SB as an example is kind of, "Meh?"
Yeah, and the worst excess are those "catch free" "learn to ride" boards... Like you said, camber is not forgiving bad technique, so the first few days may suck, but the instant feedback prevents you from developing any bad technique that makes you catch an edge, so after those days you have a solid foundation to progress with. A board tolerating all kinds of mistakes a beginner may unknowingly make, especially when there is no instructor around to point them out, on the other hand allows for those mistakes to become habits that later are going to be much harder to unlearn.
Haha, yeah long rant from skier added as well 🙂 For me the relentless marketing of rocker has led to an explosion of utter beginners going off piste, because they say the ski can make it all happen.... not so really. There is also the BS line of "helps initiate the turn" and other such crap. People seem to think the tech can overcome the technique, which again is not true. The best most versatile one ski quivver plank i've used to date is still the Atomic Theory from cica 2012. Had beefy camber nuder foot, very little rocker in tip or tails, like less than 2mm maybe, and it was only started i think 10cm from tails, and similar from tips. There was also no tapering away of the effective edge before tip and tails, meaning you have a long effective edge, great for carving. Now that ski was great for me, as i have skied for over 30 years and used to race and compete in freestyle later on. So my technique is solid everywhere. And for sure if you like carving off a 15-20m kicker this sort of ski will feel great and confidence inspiring. I also liked it in deep pow, but i don't go building massive off piste kickers or drop cliffs bigger than about 10-15 foot drops. It still amuses me though that you see loads of people skiing all day long on piste with skis with huge long rocker flapping around like the waste of money it is in that situation. Most people in Europe these days spend waaaaayyyy more time on piste, so rocker is a complete waste of money. Learning the right technique with some proper lessons would be a far better investment 😀
@@timeflex why? It's THE rocker board the masses refer to. I understand what you mean, but I think I'm pretty nuanced in the video, talking about full surf inspired rocker and flat/early rise for minutes.... What other rockers do you want mentioned and for what reason?
@@Justaride-Snowboard-Channel I guess, we should differentiate masses then. If we talk about experienced riders, to whom (if I'm not mistaken) both Lib Tech and Burton address those boards, then we should exclude any references to the beginners. If, however, we talk about masses of newbies, who just started and who want to have at least some fun and as few injuries as possible, then, I think, neither of those boards are a good example. In the latter case, I would say something like Capita Pathfinder Reverse could be a better choice. Again, just a personal oppinion.
One of the best videos on Rocker VS Camber. I never really understood the differences but your video was very informational and easy to understand the differences and why it matters.
24:25 "a flat board teaches confidence" this is SUPER true, I love my flat to early rise. On paper i think flats are the worst since there is 0 dampening or extra spring of any kind unlike both rocker and camber, but in practice that means YOU are riding the hill and not the board, so you feel the snow and react to what's under foot closely. There's nothing to physically get unpredictable unlike the pressure points any flex has. At the end of the day I'm currently camp camrock, but flat boards are quite underrated in what they offer and how little theyre discussed or made. Definitely worth having one in any quiver
I agree with everything except the damping aspect. Flat - as soon as tipped on edge, which is in every turn - has dampening! As soon as you tilt it, you push into the sidecut, which bends the board past its neutral shape (flat). The only shape that lacks this kind of dampening is rocker between the feet! 🙂
Absolutely perfect explanation as usual! Corresponds with my experience too, i can connect laid down turns on my... Korua Uberegg, the ultimate pow board, the Banana of Bananas with insane taper on top, it works! It just only starts gripping from quite a high edge angle, but it grips! Of course ir's not as loaded and not as fun as a slightly cambered carver but still i was astonished by its carvability. My fav shape is probably slight camber or flat with early rise/rocker in the nose, like the shorty! Still pbbly can't resist to order a Pipeliner 2.0 for this season 🤪 let's ride! 🤙
Thank you SO MUCH for this video, Lars! So helpful and useful. I went snowboarding for the first time this year and, as you said, as soon as I told the rental “expert” that I was a beginner, they gave me a rocker board. I felt all throughout the week the tail swinging around randomly and even if I didn’t catch and edge from it, it made snow build up at the side of the tail and it would throw me off my balance. Please keep doing what you do! 🏂 If only I had watched this video before. But now I am going again in February and will choose a camrock board!
I loved my K2 Raygun - massively confidence inspiring, brilliant in powder ( when set back ) and could happily cope with Black runs 👍👍👍 Id previously had a FULL camber Rome Solution and it was SO catchy it was a nightmare ( I only get 1 weeks boarding a year ) so never had a chance to get comfortable on it 🤷♂️ now on a Jones Frontier with mild camber but with early rise and mild spoon gives best of both worlds. Agree with everything said by Lars - the guy knows his tech 👍
This has to be the single most informative video on the physics behind snowboarding I've seen. I thought I knew a lot about camber vs rocker and how they performed, and while I had the basic idea right, I feel like I have a much deeper and complete understanding now. Was reading through some of the comments and am excited to watch you cover 3BT! On a side note, as someone who also loves carving, powder, and enjoys a riding style very similar to what you mentioned yourself, I'd love to hear your thoughts on my current quiver and possible additions. I watched your earlier video with the Stranda Cheater and it has me very interested. I'll add more details below this comment
Rider details: 6'4", ~185lbs, US12 boot Current quiver: Korua Dart 160W DWD Pow Reaper 160W Nitro Cannon 203 Korua Pocket Rocket 129 Bataleon Disaster 156W Personal thoughts: Absolutely love the Korua Dart for carving and pow, probably my favourite board and best memories riding it, but sometimes wish it was more playful to throw in a few butters in between carves or coming out of a carve. DWD Pow Reaper carves nearly as well, bit more receptive to butters and switch (mostly mental for the switch), but not as great in pow as I'd like. I think the drastic upkick in the nose might be slowing it down. Pocket Rocket is a very fun board, understandably very niche though and not an everyday ride. Nitro Cannon also falls into this niche category, also too skinny so I'm wary of carving too deep due to my large boots, but I do love how stable it feels at speeds. Disaster is my remedy for the rest of my boards not being very butter friendly. Great for that loose fun buttery ride, and does hold an edge better than I expected, but again is a bit on the narrower side, so between the much softer flex and risk of booting out I find I don't have the confidence to try longer harder faster carves. I also owned a Rossignol Sushi 145 which I liked overall but booted out in the tail, and a Party Wave which was undersized for me but weirdly enough was the first board I learned to really leave trenches with. I've probably already overloaded you with information at this point so I'll try to focus everything down to a few questions. A) Is the Stranda Cheater noticeably/significantly better at carving than a board like the Korua Dart to the point that it'd be worth getting and taking over as my dedicated carving board. B) Is there any board that comes to mind as a good daily driver for someone such as myself? Something I can still rip a magnificent carve on, hit powder stashes with ease, playful enough to get some cheeky butters in. Wouldn't necessarily have to carve/butter 100% as well as my dedicated carving/buttering board but something I can take out without thought on any given day and not feel limited. My main problem last season was picking a board every morning.
First of all thanks for your kind words! Much appreciated. Nice quiver, too! :-) I could write a book, but that will take too much time to read. So in short to your question: A) Yes! There's no other board like the Cheater out there. Koruas carve very well. The Cheater carves better. It is the more carving specific design that isn't limited by having to appeal to some kind of cool factor... B) The issue is your physical dimensions. You're very tall, but relatively light for your height with big feet. Many of the boards that may offer what you want aren't really wide enough or are too short. The Nidecker Escape 162 XL (extra wide) could work very well. There's a 169, too. The waists are in the 270's... Board is camber dominant but not super stiff. Nidecker understand edge grip!! The board is a true allrounder and very cheap. Only down side: soft base will wear down quickly - but at least it's fast. I'm sure there are other options, but this could be a good one. Hope that helps! Check out my other videos! I'm sure there are more that you'll like. Cheers, Lars
Great video brother. I’ve been on only cambered boards my whole life until a few years ago. Then I got the star dare camber with rocker in tip and tail. Most unconventional I have is a 2023 Rome Ravine Select. It’s rocker tip to flat camber back to front insert pack, then traditional camber all the way back to rocker tail. It’s pretty good help in the float, a little chatter at speed. Playful overall. It’s a little fat at the waist, but not volume shifted. I got the 158. I love it. I got a Ride Berzerker for this season. It’s a smaller waist width, much more traditional camber, quadratic (3x radius) sidecut. Stiffer flex. Throwback board. Probably a baby to the Deep Fake which is a baby to the Commissioner.
Great topic! You are spot on! I designed flat board back in 2005 for T9 but they didn't want to open the mold for it. I was going to adjust for the lack of camber with some carbon, core materials and core profiling to make it still have good flex and pop. I wish I would have just made them in a sample press, they would have been ahead of the others. Great job on the show!
Camb-rocker or hybrid Cam-Rocker comes in two flavors. Your Stranda Shorty is one. Burton just recently released the Barracuda, and its rocker from the front contact point to center, and a small camber on the back leg. Your video is educational and i appreciate that. I suspect rocker compresses to a pre-determine amount, but this could also mean you accelerate on the curve faster because the rocker board carves into a larger arc on a curve.
Thanks for the comment! The rocker has nothing to do with the size of the arc or acceleration through the turn. Turn size depends on sidecut radius, board angulation, board flex relative to rider weight and even a bit on snow conditions.
Great analysis, and the demo at 15:50 showing how the sidecut and board shape interact on edge is brilliant. The hybrid camber boards you can get today are the most versatile option, and most of the 'camber' boards being sold are actually hybrids, and they can carve fantastically, even with early rise on both ends. The only thing my true camber Donek is better at is carving on hardpack, which happens to be the majority of my riding. If I had to only have one board it would be a hybrid camber.
Now I understand why I got polite "why are you riding this" vibes when you tuned my hybrid rocker a couple of years ago! It was OK when I was riding mellow soft stuff in Banff, though I never did like the squirrely feeling getting off the chair. I rode it once more in Fernie after you took care of it, but it just didn't "feel" right here. Now I know why; how cool to learn about the technical aspects behind my "feelings" about the boards I've tried.
I have a ride war pig, similar shape to the stranda. And I absolutely love the shape. The war pig is flat though, so no camber, but I spend my time in the deep usually. So it works for me. Loved the information though.
Great video! I have a new board that I just got this year in sales that is the Salomon super 8 pro which is backseat camber aka camber to flat in the nose as I was feeling optimistic about the season BC is getting this year bring on the pow! I wanted something to complement my ride smokescreen with standard camber profile which is a great little carver but not awesome in the deep. Interesting I went back to an old catalogue of my first board which was a burton blunt and it didnt even mention cam or rocker! Here is an exert: 2009 Burton Blunt While all your homies spend their weekends washing dishes to afford the competitions so-called premium park stick, youll be busy shredding the Blunt til your legs fall off. Immortal strength with a heart for park destruction, this low-maintenance twin gets upgraded with the bite-free slide of our Rail Ready tune, and ultra-light Pro-Tips to help you pretzel out of that rail you just slaughtered.
Thanks! I find it much nicer than making people subscribe to Patreon and pay me monthly… feels weird. This way if you spontaneously feel like it, you can just ‘buy me a coffee’… or two…. or ten…. Hahahaha 😅
@3:10 yes I've been telling people this since 2002 park city Olympics rip shane...it was from his research into circa 1890s wooden skis and widest under foot
Rocker for good fluid dynamics, which is powder in snowboarding scene(or pond skim if you're considering doing that). Hence you see all ships have either flat or rocker bottom. I got 12 borads and ride Japan mostly. The two I'd definitely bring on deep pow days are flat and rocker.
So cool seeing him ride the water skies down the mountain 😎 Also anyone else notice how little edge hold they had? He had to of been moving at like 50km/Hr side slipping down that mountain hahaha terrifying
I hear ya! Have you watched this one yet? I’m talking about that there. ru-vid.com/video/%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BE-wK6qYIN89rI.htmlsi=LnLo4YxYcUt_Xng8
@@Justaride-Snowboard-Channel Yes, I watched that one too! Thanks. ;-) The thing is, even though I don't have a lot of experience in snowboarding, in my limited one, I've tried full camber, flat, and mellow rocker (same stiffness give or take). And the last one I found much more predictable and forgiving. For example, the turning initiation is easy because the turning point is always near the axis of symmetry of my body. Also, it doesn't need a lot of speed to carve, since it's always kind of pre-bent. On the subject of carving, due to the shape of the cut, you WILL load its nose and tail even at a low angle. Yes, the board will not spring up, but I'd argue this is good because it will allow a rider to master that transition at one's pace just with the knees.
good point, put your feet further apart and see how differently that rocker behaves. also to add to your carving comment, the spring out of the turn is overrated, the board simply cannot spring you into the air, you have to do it yourself on any board. it can take varying degrees of its own weight out of the equation but it is mostly cosmetic.
It's interesting. From late high school through college I rode a skate banana and a Rome that was mustache rockered. But those were like by far my most straight line at full speed years. Then I became an instructor for a few years and dialed in my carving and now I only ever want to be on camber. There's a shape for every style. When I was younger and just hauling a** the rocker probably helped me keep from exploding cause I could react so quickly with smear turns instead of AASI robot technique. Now that I'm more controlled and technique oriented the deflection and stuff from rocker that you mention is far more noticeable. To each their own. Different shapes for different styles.
@Justaride-Snowboard-Channel Just a thought on the hybrid camber board. If the contact points weren't raised above the centre of the board this would make this profile alot better surely? But not sure if anyone offers this?
Great explanation. I have an arbor formula rocker board and really don’t like it. I had a hire button custom that was heaps better and was old too. It seems to get great reviews but it’s not for me as an all mountain board. Maybe I’m not as good as I wanna be but I just can’t get on with it. I am now looking for a more rear bias board for Australian resorts.
I like to ride fast both switch and regular, I want tons of pop when hitting jumps, I like stability and predictability, team traditional camber all the way!
Hi Lars. What's your opinion on the hammerhead carving boards with big camber and long edges like the Nobile N8 and SG Soul? I daily ride a K2 Alchemist 163 and it's pretty long, but always been wondering about those specialized boards that the Japanese and Korean carvers ride.
Never tried one, so can’t speak from personal experience. But the concept is proven. It makes sense. Still gotta get the flex and camber profile right.
I rode a Burton full camber for years and never seemed to progress, perhaps I had no confidence as I was catching edges too much. Last year I switched to hybrid camber (Jones Mtn Twin) and immediately became a better rider, and progressed much faster. I imagine I'm losing some effective edge, pop, and whatnot from not having full camber, but I feel the pros of hybrid camber outweigh the cons.
Mostly rode a version of rocker since the banana and was always happy but always wondered why I looked like a complete newbie getting on and off lifts 😂 Back to camber for 2025
For the camrock design, i did one custom at home very early 90.. I felt pure alpine boards were to much direct on gripping, and freestyle boards just shit (at this moment), so why not a mix even to go in the powder !!! The custom was180 long, 18cm width 🙃 SG type Board with an asymetrical sidecut, but symetrical nose/tail, strong camber and long nose rocker. Surprisingly. it was quite easy riding for a so long/narrow and stiff board ☺but for powder forget it. The nose was more forgiving than a pure alpine, but the narrow shape and the stiffness was a problem. A good shaping experience.
I struggled with learning carving on a hybrid camber (flying V, but not Burton) board. I switched to Nitro Team board, which has the simplest shape and regular camber. Only then I started to feel that I am getting it. Very predictable board, that for some reason, is often marked as "advanced board".
Lars curious what you would consider the Biru. 25 years with full camber so stuck in my ways but does the Biru have a little more powder float with that early rise?
It has a very big nose, and the width offers plenty of float. It's a great camber board that does extremely well for its amount of camber. But if you want a pow board, the Treesurfer, Shorty, Bowlrider or Descender are the better choice. Either way, in case you ever buy a Stranda and you go straight through their page rather than through a dealer, feel free to use this link. It'll support my channel. Thank you for the engagement here!!🙂www.strandasnowboards.com/ref/878/
It’s camber. Them calling it camber dominant banana is a bit of a joke. It rides well, but it’s simply slightly detuned camber. I actually like it. Just their marketing drives me nuts… 😅
@@Justaride-Snowboard-Channel I've always called it "traditional camber with an extra flex point in the middle". My favorite Mervin boards are the ones with the C3, tbh.
@@elho001 I hear ya, but I don't think that's true. I could perfectly well 'market' the fact that Stranda uses a lot of ash in their boards, which is far superior to many other wood types in regards to tensile strength, flex retention and dampening at the cost of about 5% extra weight, which in return isn't even a disadvantage in regards to edge grip and that would simply be true. 🙂
speaking of flying V… I had a Nitro gullwing for one season. It’s pretty much a flying V… it was not really confidence inspiring - especially at the chair lift and t-bar… had my worst edge catches with it and sold it after 20 days of riding. Went back to camber and never looked back 🤷♂️
Does a swallow tail on a board with a cambered tail negate the anchoring effect? I bought an Endeavour Archetype which is full camber with early rise nose but not tail, although it has a big swallow cut tail. I haven't used it yet, however it seems some people find it a bit lacking in real powder. I'm planning to bring it to Japan, but I have a little voice in my head telling me my Skate Banana will still be better in Japow!
Great question! The issue with the Archetype is the width and the setback! It's not very wide, which is less floaty. But the bigger issue is that the reference stance is way too far forward for the amount of taper. The rider is placed way in front of the sidecut centre..... Once you set the board back from reference by at least 1.5" it'll ride better in every situation. Generally a nice feeling board, I find.
@@Justaride-Snowboard-Channel Thanks for your reply. Interesting about the reference stance, I would have thought a reference stance would normally be centred within the sidecut!
@@prodish to keep things simple: all the 3-D designs including lifted edges and all that suff may have very mild advantages in pristine powder. Everything else is hype and gimmicks. Most people ride mountains... not cat skiing powder fields on the one dedicated cat skiing board.... So for me personally a normal base profile without any 3-D anything with a long nose rocker, camber in the middle and mild tail rocker is the best thing. Why does a company like Gentemstick that builds some of the best pow boards in the world for $1500 a piece not do any of this? Because they understand that you can't make a wheel rounder! ;-)
@@Justaride-Snowboard-Channel 100% agree. Lifted edges can be interested in pow. I bought new Burton with this kind of edges (Burton Channel Surfer) for my trip to japan to test it in real pow. Most probably I will regred that choice when I will hit some groomers 😁
I wouldn't go quite that far, but nobody would get hurt with that either, hahaha.... We need variety, and it's all fun. As long as you pick consciously! ;-)
Wait, so it's not just me? I've been fighting on my flying V for years, trying and failing to learn to make nice carves (I mostly ride on hard snow and ice). Daaamn is it fun in powder though. I think I'll keep it for the rare pow days, currently considering the Yes Standard Uninc or a similar aggressive "camrock". Not looking forward to catching edges again though, I hope I survive my first run 😅
It's camber between the feet, rocker in the tips! That's Nidecker's Camrock. NS did rocker in the middle, camber UNDER the feet. At least that's what I understood. We'll find out at some point, ha! ;-)
Would love to have an opinion…. Never tried one. But really…., triple camber just seems so weird and unnecessary. I can’t wrap my head around it. Definitely gonna try to get on one.
@@Justaride-Snowboard-Channel Ha, my Ptoto FR 161X is for sale. Didn't really care for it. Just picked up an Amplid Singular. I think I'll like it better.
@@mikeyseifert80 I did have a NS Proto Type 2 once that I kind of liked. In fact I still have it but have not used it for years as I like my other boards so much better
Many thanks @justaride-snowboardingchannel and everybody else commenting, really great video! Been riding for almost 30y like many here, only camber except for a Custom Flying V for 3 years in 2010-2012. After seeing so many positive references about the regular Orca I bought one laat season. With the most respect for TR I sold it after a few weeks. The over steering on hard pack when going fast but also after exiting the lifts was really scary! I just can’t understand why you would ride (any form of) rocker except for powder (I have a flat top Special Effects for this)? Is it just me and should I try a Golden Orca for example or stick with (mild) camber anywhere else?
Demoing/borrowing something else if the opportunity arises is always worth it. I am one of those who started riding about 30 years ago and thus obviously learning on and exclusively riding camber for more than a decade. The first rocker board I demoed was like a cheat code for buttering, but would wash out even in mellow carves in all but the most perfect grippy snow. I at that time, after more demoing settled for a T.Rice Pro Pointy (without caring who TR was) which would hold up to carving (with same technique as for camber) while being good enough in pow and not too bad for freestyle either. I later did demo a Burton Custom Twin Flying-V and it was pretty similar in terms of playfulness and buttering, but not match holding an edge on hardpack. I nowadays do have C2x, C3 and camber boards in my quiver. Sure camber is most edge hold in icy conditions and hardest carving, but I can also lay my extra short and soft C2x butter stick pretty hard - much better than I could butter a long, stiff camber carving board. Also, while I manage to get through an icy steep mogul field with all of them, swiveling around on a hybrid rocker is a lot less effort and more fluent than jump turning a camber deck. So there is definitely positive/likeable traits that hybrids have to offer to the experienced comber rider. But you need to find the right board for you and there is more opportunity to find a specific rocker or hybrid board to not work at all for you, where a random camber board (with few exceptions) at worst is just "solid, but nothing special".
Great comment! Thanks man! I'm gonna put myself out there and risk it: The Orca is the single greatest marketing success in the history of snowboarding for not a single other reason than the rider behind it! That's my true opinion... The board is so heavily overrated and not marketed truthfully either. I had guys come into the shop, 6'3", 240 lbs asking to buy the 156 or maybe 153..., because that's what the internet told them... Thinking that that could be a good idea goes against all the physics in the universe, and they would still believe that I'm an idiot trying to sell them the 162 or 159..... The entire Orca thing was nuts, Shops couldn't have enough in stock. Everybody blindly wanted an Orca. Best marketing ever! Lib wants me on a 153 or even 150. I tried the 156 and it was still way too unstable. That tail has nothing.... Like.... it's so much too soft!! Of curse you get people telling you how well their Orca carves, but without disrespect, you gotta take into account the definition of carving that some riders have. Just riding the edge is not carving, and you can do that on any board. However, in powder the Orca has its benefits, and that's what the marketing should have been all about. But instead it was the new best snowboard in the world for everything.... Travis speaking into the camera how it's more grip than carving in hardboots, because he's done it all and the Orca is just the best..... It was mental to see this level of brain washing. Orca rant of the day. I guess I need to apologize to some Orca lovers here right away. :-) Sorry guy! Not liking that board one bit.
@@PeterBelling Its a 2020 GNU Finest 155W. "Normal" size for me would be more like 159, but in a multiple board quiver I wanted the extra softness to make it the butter stick. 😀 The wide also giving extra platform there and avoiding bootout. It does carve really well for the specs I choose. Limitations (at my specs) are: 1. In (heavy) slush it will bend when you try to push a bump out of your way, 2. whiteout in a mogul field where you can not see the direction of the incline and thus be off balance at times you go involuntary butter easily, 3. In flat pow sections with centered stance you after a while feel your back leg. So perfect combination with a stiffer freeride, pow or carving board for sure. A very freestyle focused rider that does not size down on this and not see frequent (or only steepish) pow may well consider as quiver of one, I would say. Base out of the factory was terribly slow, but nothing a stone grind or proper wax could not fix.
I started learning with a flyingv and upgraded to camber couple years later. Still remember when I first tried camber I feel too catchy and fell a lot so I detune the board at contact point. Now i can go with much higher speed and can carve quite well on my toe edge but still struggling on holding my heel side carve. Should I sharpen my contact point back? The funniest part is when I try to switch back to my flyingv recently, I almost cannot ride and hold my edge which is exactly what u said 😅
Yes, the reason you catch an edge is that you make the wrong edge come into contact with the snow at the wrong time. Detuning the edge (or switching to a "forgiving" board) is avoiding the symptom, not fixing the cause. Yes, edges can be too sharp, but with good riding technique that does not lead to catching an edge, it will rather make a carved turn feel so locked in almost as if you could not exit it and are pulled more into the turn than you intended. Give the well tuned edges a try and if you struggle, get an instructor which can both identify issues in your technique and suggest exercises to overcome them.
@@elho001Thanks for your insight. I am not saying detuning the whole edge but only the 4 contact points. As I really like buttering and also want to carve with higher speed at the same time. Hope this makes sense to you.
@@garytklai Yes sure, I got that and I am aware that detuning the contact points is a popular thing. For a pure park rat it probably may make sense, but personally I am perfectly fine not doing it. 🤷 I do like both carving and buttering as well, but did learn on true old full camber about 30 years ago. Thus always keeping the board with the downhill facing/forward moving side angled up from the ground (exercise: do continuous spins/pirouettes on the ground) is something I internalized from the days on. Do I never ever catch an edge? During normal riding, actually yes, when goofing around trying freestyle tricks that I do not master yet, no. But those happen at slow speed without consequences and often are cases like landing with the board sideways (like if you made it only 270 degrees through a 360), where no detuning would help anyway.
Would love your thoughts on where triple-base/TBT, from Lobster and Bataleon, fit into this picture… (full disclosure, I do not like them at all… felt like riding a wok)
@@iamkeir hahaha, WOK has a hilarious!!! 😂Wokboarding! Carve a WOK! I’ll try that this season! 😅 As you probably know, they try to maintain full camber down the centre, and flat base for ollies that may be fine and a good idea… Edge to edge however it’s for the most part ‘weird’. I like the idea. But I don’t like how it actually rides.
@@Justaride-Snowboard-Channel I think as you demonstrated when you tipped the rocker on edge, eventually a cambering effect kicks in, to some degree. I think that just doesn’t play out the same on TBT because the rise is perpendicular (although I’d like to physically see it to confirm). It’s a funky ride, either way.
This is all great.. But what confuses me is that all the pressure we put on tip and tail while carving hard should be taking us out of our immaginary rail.. So rocker boards would seem to be naturally better suited to stay in a carve even though they don't have as much spring out of it.. Why would a tensioned board be better for railing carves? It doesn't make sense to me.. Even tho i know it works
This is hard to explain without diagramming some stuff, but think about the forces acting on the contact points alone: on a cambered board, the force applied by the rider pushes the side cut onto the snow, and if you reduce the force, the board wants to return to its natural shape, which STILL has the contact points fully in contact with snow, maintaining grip. In a rocker board, the force you're applying helps engage the contact points, but the board wants to lift them back from the snow, which means the board is more prone to disengage naturally. When fully tensioned on a smooth surface, at ideal angles, both boards should carve the same; but we're rarely riding on ideal conditions, or exerting even force on the board all the time.
19:32 I'm not sure that camber with its contact point behind the back foot will do you any good either. In the case of rocker at least you will have 2 points (middle and back) instead of 3. With camber, you will have just one (back).
I’m not so much thinking of contact points but rather what the rocker pre load in the centre does. I think no matter what else is going on in a board, that reverse loaded arc is not functional on hardback.
Been riding 4 years now. Started riding on a camber hybrid, rode a rocker hybrid as a demo board at the end of last year. Liked it so much, bought the same model this past summer. But I am a blue cruiser and a small amount of freeride when we get snow on my property.
The ones that are well-designed are outside the contact points, to increase floatability without impacting the grip the board can generate. Even Bataleon, which probably has the most aggressive 3D shaping from the mainstream brands, starts their 3BT at the contact points, keeps it minimal for their most aggressive models, and the upkick in their bases is outside the contact points.
if mervin thought banana rocker was the end all be all, they wouldnt be making full cambered boards again! powder you can ride anything mikey leblanc rode a sled. surfboards need rocker because they wont turn without it. surfboards rocker is like snowboards sidecut.
@@Justaride-Snowboard-Channel also depends on if its only being used in powder, all mountain, resorts, conditions, or a combination of all. keep up the good info!
Dart is great!! I like the 160 a lot. According to Wolken the 164 is even better. Depends on what you want. In powder and tight trees the 156 is great. Carving on the 160 was amazing. Overall too much taper for my flavour. But great board.
The snowboard "ollie" is a lie. I came back to snowboarding after experiencing only camber boards and i wanted to try all new profiles, flat, rocker, camrocker and hybrid. And I did. They are all fun and they work just fine for pretty much anything. The feel does change but not the overall physics of gliding, turning and springing. I also found out the boards "springiness" is overrated. Its your body doing the jumping and the springing, out of turns, the board can barely lift itself up when tensioned, much less a rider. If you don't believe me, get a park/street "noodle" and try some proper unweighted turns on it, you'll notice you can do them at slower speeds but the "springing" sensation is still there. Its because that's all it is, a sensation created by the board lifting a portion of its own weight up. Think about a trampoline, hundreds of fibers and springs and you still have to work your own muscles to go up, put your board on two wooden blocks (dont try this at home), stand in the middle and try to spring up higher than you would from the floor. you wont. your weight is too much for any board to lift up. To sum up, regardless of what we tell ourselves as snowboarders, the board's rebound does nothing for your jumps and little for your turns. it does do something for absorbing changes in terrain relative to the speed of passing through those changes that much is true, but the spring of the snowboard that would make the "ollie" possible is a lie.
I disagree! 🙂 Nobody argues that the board is doing it all for you. That is obviously impossible. But the board is a part of it, and I think it’s very much noticeable.
I'm gonna add something here that may be hard to understand: In more advanced training sessions people discuss how much 'performance a given rider gets out of their board'. This has everything to do with the timing and efficiency of the body movements in combination with the board. Do you accelerate through and in particular out of a turn? Are you 'loading the board', which has a lot to do with fore-aft movement?! When a rider is at the level where they achieve all that, the board becomes an active element of their riding. If someone (and I'm not saying you in particular!!) doesn't experience the board as its own unit of energy, as its own part of their experience, they're likely not at the level where they get 'much performance out of a board'.An example is my friend Tim, who has become an insanely good carver. Like.... wow!! Beautiful to watch and all. He keeps telling me that his greatest struggle is to stand back up out of a turn and change edges. We can be riding the same board down the same slope, and I'll be getting air in between turns while he remains glued to the ground... So he'll likely confirm your take and agree that the board makes hardly any difference.
I'm a skier, and for sure i think the addition of rocker is useful for people that have zero technique when they go off piste. Camber on the other hand is what you want for everywhere else on the mountain. If you are a strong skier and you are using a rockered ski on piste or in the terrain park you will feel like the tails want to wash out if there is a long and large amonut of rocker, this is much more noticeable if the ski is also tapering away from the true radius of carve before the tip and tail. This is the BS of "multiple radii", which is obviously an oxymoron. You cannot have multiple radii on one ski. It is simply not possible. For me a perfect ski has zero taper at tip and tail so you have a nice long effective edge, beefy camber of 6mm or more, very little rocker in tip or tail, less than 3mm, and not starting more than 15cm from tip or 10 cm from tail. Anything else is just not required, assuming you can actually ski well in the first place. The best all round ski i have used to date is still the Atomic Theory from 2012. That ski was great at everything, maybe with the exception of massive cliff drops, or huge kickers in deep pow where a lot of rocker will help you rise back out of the snow on landing, but how many people are seriously dropping 20 foot plus cliffs all day every day? Thing is skiing and snowboarding are technical sports and people do not want to put the time in for lessons, or do not have the time/money to invest in that method. I remeber watching a girl in Courchevel a total beginner skiing around with a private photographer, utterly out of control on beginner runs.... an instructor private lesson would have been better use of the money. However, all of this is just my opinion, not a fact 😂😂😂
"Thing is skiing and snowboarding are technical sports and people do not want to put the time in for lessons, or do not have the time/money to invest in that method." Right on the money! - I don't agree with the multi sidecut, though. If the radii are blended well, it makes a difference and can be good for certain applications. But there are lots of variables, and not everybody does it well.
@@Justaride-Snowboard-Channel Re. the multi radii. I am yet to be convinced it works as multi radii, but it defo helps in powder, as the tapering helps with how the ski floats through the snow at tip and tail 🙂 I guess i'm biased to my own requirements because of where i ski (France) and what i like to ski on. I used to race and compete in freestyle comps so i was trained in SL/GS to begin with then trained for moguls/air, made national teams in race and freestyle. So i ski with very good technique on everything. And i guess i like a ski that is rock solid on a carve as a result. But for sure people could do with many more lessons than they take currently. It really opens up more of the mountain and a lot more thrills and fun if you get that dialled before you hit terrain parks and off piste environments. I trained up my wife from first snow contact, and it took me about 2 months one to one lessons (60 days) to get her going with really sweet parallel turns where she could control speed and radius on any groomer and get up to a good speed while doing so. Conversely i have a mate who does a week or two a year and i keep trying to tell him we need to hit the blues and greens and work on his technique, but all he wants to do is go fast.... he'd be a far better skier if he had taken me up on it 20 years ago 🙂
@@theoutsider6191 hmmm… I’m not sure we mean the same thing when we talk about multi radii. It has nothing to do with taper at all. It’s also not ‘serrated edge design’ with bumps. It’s simply a single curve that is not making a perfect circle. It’s been used in race skis and boards forever, and it has nothing to do with edge grip or technique either. Maybe you can clarify.
@@Justaride-Snowboard-Channel I know what you're saying, but you cannot have multiple radii. If you have a "multi radii" what you will have is areas of the effective that are not in use, effectively, because the true parabola is not being followed, for whichever radius is not being carved at that point. So the example i used is more extreme than we are talking about here, because what the tip and tail taper do is exactly that, they move the edge away from being an effective edge. It is just more dramatic than the subtle changes that pretend to create a multi arc ski parabola. This is a fact of geometry and why slalom race skis will not have multi-radii stated. And it is why most skis will come with a stated radius of sidecut which you can feel as you rail them over and don't try to manipulate the length of turn. The true arc reflects the arc of the turn the dimensions create, or in the case of "multi-radii" the dominant radius which you will feel as you rail them over without modifying the turn. The method of varying turn length is down to how the skier transmits force to the edge through angulation and forward/rear pressure. IMO multi-radii is a bit of a gimmick like massive amounts of rocker being helpful for "initiating turns", or even better the dynastar tip bobbles from back in the 80s or the Rossi credit card both of which pretended to dampen vibrations..... Don't get me wrong, its only really about enjoying yourself, i guess i'm just a nerd for the type of skiing i like. I know loads of park skiers love the noodly type ski that is soft as, and no doubt has this sort of sidecut, so if you don't really care about edge hold the mutli-radii reducing effective edge hold is desirable. And to be fair the young guns are far better in the park than me 🙂
@@theoutsider6191 great comment and clarification!! Really appreciate this!! You said it yourself, it comes down to what the skier does!! IMO multi radii sidecuts, when done well, follow the pressure distribution and weight shift the rider creates through the entire length of the turn. My Stranda Cheater has something like an 8m radius the first 10 to 15cm of the EE, which then gently transitions into 9m for the rest of the EE. This helps that big, long board to enter turns with less effort - if you actually move weight into the nose. The whole thing is so subtle that you otherwise don’t notice a thing. Just one example of where I find it a good design.
Could you see the humour in it? The entertaining factor? That’s the whole reason I put both into the video. The board JG spins on snow isn’t even a rocker board or meant to be one. I agree with what you’re saying, and I thought that was obvious. ✌️
Its all Lib Techs fault ... frankenstein boards c2 and c2x only works because of sidecut disruptions . The Burton flying V is an epic fail they ride horrible in all conditions
EPIC FAIL is good! Hahahaha.... I couldn't agree more! It literally just didn't work.... Remember the Burton Sherlock? That profile was criminal!! The amount of rocker and early rise on the same deck was incomprehensible..... Hahahaha! Thanks for the comment!! :-)
