Ironically, Logan saying "i love you but you're not serious people" was the most genuine and honest thing any character has said in the show. Brilliant writing
@@MaverickIceman how is hearing your father, for the last time ever, tell you that he doesnt respect you or anything youve ever done in your life a bad thing? is that seriously what you're asking?
Yup, he was a shit dad but he had a firm grasp on reality. Whether he felt bad or not due to how he raised them he knew they were damaged emotionally and extremely vulnerable people who crumbled under pressure when it came to the business.
Before saying they're not serious people, Logan realized perfectly well that they are willing to lose billions of dollars just to spite him. This is when he stops playing nice guy and storms out the room. The sad thing is "You're not serious people" is the last thing the siblings will ever hear from him.
@@azimdaman11 And Roman was the only one who dared to see his dead body on the airport to pay respect while Shiv immediately leave with Tom and Kendall is just standing and staring. Connor on the other hand, celebrate his wedding with a few people and still grieving.
It's kind of interesting because the two that he seems to have abused the worst (Connor & Roman) are the ones not attacking him here. I find the whole dynamic fascinating.
They’re not serious people because he was too weak a father to raise serious people. He doesn’t really get to be right here because he’s essentially reaping what he himself had sewn.
@@cainandabel7059logan promised them all the keys to the kingdom but did such a terrible job at raising them that none of them were worthy of them, what he says is true they are idiots but it's his fault
And he himself was raised in a certain that made him into the kind of person who wouldn't raise serious people, so if you idi0t will just make it all about bad parenting and excuse his kids from all blame you should stop blaming logan as well.
@@cainandabel7059And maybe logan was born into the kind of man who would become a great father who wouldn't break his kid's spirit of fight, but the parenting he received broke that good father spirit in him, so if you as well you idi0t gonna just make it all about parenting and blame logan for everything and excuse his kids you should do the same with him and pardon him.
Also, noticed the symbolism that Connor whom he neglected the most and Roman whom he abused the most on his left side while Shiv and Kendall who mostly stand up to him and being too proud because of their narcisstic attitude on his right side? The left side got "Peaceful" endings and the right side got Bad endings
@Falren1 during the dinner tape in 4x10 you can see Kerry clinging onto and gleefully smiling at Logan. Part of her relationship with him probably was the money, but she seemed pretty genuine about her care for Logan too.
it's sad what years of manipulation did to Kendall.. he addresses everyone's traumas but himselfs; even though he was the one driven to edge and who almost was killing himself... it's just.. sad.
And when he's the one getting hurt, like accidentally killing the waiter, he buries his mistake and he doesn't even apologize to the guy's parents and let Logan was doing the job because the news blame him. He has no one to share his guilts even though he shows the sign of being broken as he doesn't know what to do until he confesses on Season 3 finale. Kendall is the true pinacle of Fall From Grace.
For people who are saying that mathsson did pay more in the end thats because he got ATN too. The original deal he had with logan was without ATN . When Logan asks "but why?" to his kids wanting more money he understands that 10% or 20% wont make a difference to them at all. They are already uber-rich he knows they are doing it just to spite him , hence "you are not serious people" which comes true at the end . Even Roman realiazing and saying "We are bullshit. You are bullshit. I am bullshit. We're nothing" .
thank you they only got more money cuz logan died and now mattson made a second go at atn, the kids played no part in him going up in price he was gonna do it orignally if logan said yes to him having atn
That’s the irony… first they wanted more money. Next they wanted to tank the deal altogether and fight each other for CEO. Had they just taken the original deal, ATN never gets put on the table and at least one of them could’ve been CEO. Saying they weren’t serious people is exactly true, and they proved him right.
I doubt Logan cared about the money or getting a little more or less. He wanted the company to go another true Shark like him. Which was Matson. Which was none of his children.
@@cmyskinsfan and half the board wanting more money is what got Logan on that plane.... Probably stressed out at that last meeting with his kids. They wanted to screw both Mattson & Logan, and managed to ultimately screw themselves by losing their father, and his company.
@@mrprimeconsigliere Exactly, at think at his core this was Logan's wish. Even if he didn't want to acknowledge it. He wanted one of the kids to kill him, and none of them had the ability.
@@jessicat2304 why would him dying change anything? It doesn't make him a better person at all, it just changes a horrible person into a dead horrible person
@@EJD339 i still believe him in this situation but not because of his behaviour, as he's shown to be able to switch it on a whim in order to manipulate others, but because he doesn't really have anything to gain from lying to his kids about Matson leaving. If they are right and he makes another offer then Logan would get more money and if they are wrong then everyone would lose the sale, which is especially damaging to the Roy siblings considering their recent purchase of Pierce. Also there's the fact that Roman himself believes Matson would leave and we have seen Rome's skill at reading people and predicting how they would react in business, as he did with the turkish president's son or with Matson himself in the past.
His final words to Kendall, Shiv and Connor was ‘I love you, but you are not serious people’ obviously it’s not nice but he was at least being genuinely sincere with them.
And the worst punishment, all four kids didn’t have a chance to talk with and say good bye, cause he was already gone (one the phone) In the end, they all got what they deserved. And still … spoiled brats.
And then Roman later was the last kid who met him after this moment because he was still feeling guilty to betray his dad. He suffered from Stockholm Syndrome.
With the amount of people in the comments just blindly agreeing that the Roy’s failures are because “they aren’t serious people” and not a direct result of Logan himself have either skipped the first 3 seasons or have been watching a different show. Logan is the last person that should be talking about that, the Roy’s aren’t serious people, but that ABSOLUTELY includes him as well as the series has shown on countless occasions.
Nobody wants to take responsibility for their own failures and shortcomings. They could have risen to the occasion but no, daddy was mean to them so they're not responsible for anything anymore
It’s scenes like this that make Succession so phenomenal. So many intertwining and complex dynamic clashes resulting in none of the folks involved being satisfied in the end. And the fact that they showcase the family dynamic without having to use flashbacks. And magnificent performances from everyone too
I really do hope they do a flashback episode of the kids when they were growing up, like the ages they are in the intro, so we can see that dynamic play out in a full episode.
Kind of insane that we really haven't seen a proper flashback in this show and probably never will being that there are only two episodes left. Master class in writing right there
You see how Logan only responds to Shiv's comment on the divorce but dosen't respond to ignoring connor and locking his mother up or hitting Roman as a kid....shows how fucked he is. Yet people still believe he's somehow more better then these kids for being ruthless
@@sergiosalazar8702Logan raised them to fail. Thats what this entire show has been about. Its all been a cycle. A cycle of in-fighting, betrayal, and abuse. The siblings were born from Logan as puzzles that he could flaunter. They were his achievements. And thats all they were. No chance to better themselves as people. No chance to escape the hell Logan brought them into. Because he had promised them his kingdom since they were kids. And thats why Logan won in the end. He rigged the game from the start. He isnt a serious businessman. He's a toymaker who beats down on his own creation, simply because of his ego.
This is "his version" of apologizing, and yet he cannot make amends for what he has done, not in the slightest. This is a small gesture of vulnerability to try and make up for a lifetime of pain. He really thought he went all the way with this, because this is a narcissist's mind. This is him at his most vulnerable, which is still only a small percentage vulnerable, and he can only stand to be vulnerable for a couple minutes before fully closing up, blaming his kids for everything, and going full "bull mode" the day after, back to his manipulative and controlling self because he feels justified. This is an accurate depiction of narcissistic people in real life. They can be "genuine" for sure, but will it be helpful? Very often, their sense of self is so skewed, that even attempts at vulnerability can go horribly wrong. I think his kids deserve more than this, and he just cannot give it. He's gone too far, he's too narcissistic, and he's passed it on to his kids. It's a tragedy all around. He also blames his kids for being "not serious people" when... who made them this way? It's him. He's the father. Sure, people make their own decisions, but he has a major part to play in who they are. So he's just seeing a reflection of himself through his kids. Because even at his most vulnerable, it is still stonewalling and selfish and ill-timed. It is sad. It's sad for everyone. He has a big part to play in this, and even though he has had a tough upbringing, he still had his decisions to make. Logan has done enough. And now he tastes the fruits of his own demise.
@@hankwedow8796 yea but not really mattson wanted atn but logan said it was off the table, so when logan died mattson tried again to get atn and obviously he had to offer more money since atn is waystars bread and buter so technically the kids didnt really get mattson to pay more he was always willing to pay more its just logan didnt wanna give up atn in the deal
The sigh of exhaustion, and the disbelief in his continuous blinking after he tells them he loves them is brilliant acting. He has such a way of throwing their shit back at them… Brilliant job.
4:20 Shiv and Kendall returning their same responses to Logan as we saw on the last episode of season 3 is brilliant. It shows you how hurt they are and the impact of that scene to them.
I think Logan recognized this though, and it’s exactly what he’s referring to that they aren’t serious… they’re attacking him out of spite, not looking at the fact that this guy will walk away
@@andrewwertz3335 This. They were willing to gather up 10 billion dollars of other peoples money to do the WRONG move in order to get back at their father.
@@andrewwertz3335 as much as it is, I think it's still not the best thing to say yes to logan again after ALL the things that he done. Troghout the show, he always had this convincing bait that he used for his children to gain his own benefit. And while maybe in businesses wise, this one dont seem to harm anyone. It still could just be another tac tic that he use. I mean he smile here, that seems desperate
While rewatching Succesion. It’s so in your face that, while it’s a comedy drama. Most conversations from the siblings are hilarious but really child like. Their actions and mannerisms are a result of having no childhood at all. Never grew up and thats a big part of the show. Logan loves them but never raised them to be adults.
What’s so wonderfully accurate is they are all the victims of their own tragedies. Logan is yes a master of business, but he didn’t know how to show warmth to his children, and he manipulated them, and it’s blowing up in his face, and the kids don’t know how to move beyond their father or live a life not defined by him, so they’re trapped in that place. Look at this weird little neon room. They’re all stuck in this place together and they can’t get out.
Logan was an awful human being, but he was absolutely right about every single one of them. Others have mentioned the Tywin Lannister parallels and I agree. He sees a bit of himself in each of his children, yet he is so frustrated by none of them having enough.
There is nothing better than the irony in this scene. The kids FINALLY grow a spine and truly, once and for all, together, defy Logan out of spite. The irony is for the very first time…Logan is actually right about what he’s telling them. He is finally giving them sage advice. But the damage is done, and that doesn’t even matter anymore.
Arguably the harshest insult in the whole show, because on some level they know Logan's being totally sincere. Its like your parents saying "I'm not angry, I'm disappointed"
Brian Cox said that was his favorite line in the entire series. He joked about wishing Logan had said it earlier, but he needed to torture his children to keep them close. It was never going to be one of them. Logan decided on Tom a while back. Kendall got closest, but he's an emotionally damaged, inconsistent drug addict. Roman had the best instincts, but he's also an emotionally damaged, impulsive weirdo. Shiv was the smartest, but she could never get out of her own way - too damaged and her scheming always backfired. But, it was never - ever - going to be one of them. Re-watching the series with that in mind, it really does stick out how NONE of them were competent. Their hilarious entitlement was so fun to watch though. 😆 My main takeaway was how true wealth is drab and joyless. Jesse Armstrong made sure that their apartments were cold and grey (and accurate.) They were immune to the beautiful scenery they got to experience. And none of them were capable of happiness or contentment.
Logan Roy, Walter White and Tywin Lannister are so similar. They are narcissistic awful people but they are so well loved by the audience thanks to their “doing it for the family” mantra that successfully brainwashed us and their actors are so charismatic that it’s hard to hate them.
Logan is very different and actually perfectly written, whereas Walter white is retarded and game of thrones as a whole is retarded. Logan Roy is a real fuckin American PIRATE!!!!!!
Because among of the other siblings, Connor learns how to survive without love. Even when he gets a girlfriend who only interested with his wealth but still cares to him. Also, in adulthood, he is trying to get closer to Logan even telling about Kendall trying to take over the company behind Logan when he's looking at the telemproter on charity event. Deep down, he still hurts but he's getting used to it.
As much as everyone loves this line, Logan sowed the personalities of these “children”. Logan was a serious person because he had poverty to push him when young. But these kids were spoiled and lived without consequence or fear of failure. By diminishing them of some real emotional care, he created insecure and entitled people as a result.
Parents like Logan always know how to cut their children in such painful ways. He can’t handle his children sticking together and confronting him. Loved Ken’s line about having their “own pile” and Shiv’a comment about everyone deferring to Logan because they’re terrifying of going against him.
They all know they have reasonable premises. Logan quite literally was gonna walk away, with money, while only carrying about giving the image of caring about the circle, despite never actually discussing what they’d get in return if loyalty
Logan's money after he dies will go to his kids. It wasn't the money that they were all after. It was the power that comes with a company like Waystar. Logan wanted it to go a killer like him, being Matson. None of his kids were even close to Logan Roy.
I will say that you are right in him calling them let-downs, but I don't think Logan thought he failed as a dad. I think he thought they failed as children, and that he was justified in his parenting. I think he doesn't think it's his fault. And that's part of the problem. He says "you are not serious people", but why is that? Who raised them to be like this? They're reflecting himself back at him. They're three reflections of aspects of his own personality. And he just can't see that. All of them are despicable people, and he has passed down the virus that was likely also passed down to him. The generational curse continues.
@@bennyjones1502 he didn't apologize ever, but here he was trying to expréss sorry the Best he could. I think that sorry was about his failure to make Serious people. He was willing to admit that some part he did not understand was his fault.
@@JozefLPslovakia of inherited money. not their own. putting your kids on a trust fund doesn't make you a good parent. Logan didn't teach them how to make it on their own, he gave them everything they have and then blamed them for not knowing how to earn it. He is the definition of a failed dad, and a manipulative, abusive one at that. he is right that they're not "serious people" but he never raised them to be, because he never wanted to see them take his place. he sabotaged his own kids and could finally see that, and, knowing how little time he had left, was starting to regret it for the first time
Coming back to this scene after the finale. Just absolutely freaking brilliant. Like many have said in the comments, there is so much happening in this scene. At the end of it all, Logan knew and accepted that his kids just did not have it. Whether he was still holding out hope that one of them would come around to it, this might have been the final nail in the coffin for him.
He never wanted any of them to succeed him, what started all of this was him seeing Kendall on the cover of Forbes being touted as the next CEO for Waystar when he was about to retire on his OWN will. He never wanted any of them to succeed him as long as he was alive, nor did he want them to cash out/leave him (he blocked Kendall from cashing out and being done with the company) he was very much what Caroline described, someone who’d kick a dog just to see if it would return.
@@Chris24_ i think is partially that, there were point's that he actually though some of them may be the one, but them they disappointed him and then, it's point zero again. This scene is probably nail in the coffin, he realises that it wasn't business strategy, they just wanted to hurt him, and because of that, they weren't worth it, like Roman in the end says "We are bullshit".
This is such a silly thing to notice. But at 77, Brian Cox sure can pop up out of a chair quickly. Hope he remains spry enough to keep working for years to come.
I think at this point Logan really wanted to end this toxic line of work that he created which has alienated him from his family. He wanted to sell Waystar off and settle down to mend relations with the family. That was why when he apologized he really meant it, unlike in that therapy episode. We all know what happens next and it's a shame he couldn't see that reality he wanted. But it's fair game when he was the one who fostered this with his kids
That's Kendall for you, one moment he becomes Logan's good boy another moment he rebels against Logan. Meanwhile, Connor has survived being alone for a long time while Kendall is too busy for always being in the top.
The important distinction is that this is probably the most open conversation he's had with his kids, not pulling one of them aside or into another room to play with and mislead. Part of me thinks he knew time was up soon and this was his way of saying goodbye.
People want to point to this scene after the finale to prove Logan was right but what you people don't realize is that Logan is the reason their like this.
Both statements are true. It's a combination of their toxic parents and them being born at the finish line, never having to struggle for success like Logan did.
@jasminecrawford42 lol yes but telling someone they can't buy something even though they have the money to do so and then robbing them to prevent them from buying it is just a self-fulfilling prophecy
@mrprimeconsigliere them being born at the finish line only makes them view the world from a different lense as we see when Logan ask Roman how much for a gallon of milk and he can't answer which is news101. However as we see with Kendall it doesn't mean they automatically lack the drive to want to go further in life and achieve greatness, had Logan raised these kids to want to positively surpass him there lives turn out drastically different.
@devstuff2576It’s still realistically mostly on Logan either way. The siblings are adults but ultimately Logan molded them. Awful parents usually produce awful results. Reap what you sow
For once, Logan really was trying here. And it truly hits home that A, he sees just how untrusting this bunch is, how damaged they are; and B, he sees the utter futility of it, that even given they’re damaged, they are just greedy and grasping and have no true sense of business, no feel at all for true deal making. And when Logan calls them dopes, you can see it’s finally hit all the way home that he has no worthy successor and never will. That he has failed in that respect dismally, and maybe he knows he failed as a parent as well. If Logan had tried this approach much earlier, who knows? The fact that those were the last words his kids ever heard from him is just tragic, but it was true. Only Connor was willing to hear him out- the forgotten, overlooked Connor. Looking out at that lot, a man like Logan Roy must have aged a hundred years in a moment
Jesus, the writing on this show is absolutely outstanding and the performances elevate the material even more. Everyone who worked on this show should be proud. Brilliant stuff
Logan made a lot of sense. The man knows what he's talking about. After his death I'm so glad Shiv, Conner, and Roman saw his way. Kendall was self centered egomaniac. Once again he lost for the fourth and final time.
What hurt me so much was that he was right, and I knew he was right, but he didn't HAVE to be right. How it ended didn't HAVE to be how it ended. But they just couldn't get over themselves and pull it together just ONCE. Anything negative anyone says about you, no matter how true it is, doesn't have to be true. It doesn't have to stay true. And it's a shame that the kids couldn't break out of it.
This whole scene is a masterclass. S4 ep2 should win the Emmy for this scene alone. The acting, the atmosphere, the background music. Phenomenal stuff.
He was very vulnerable in his last days his diner scene with Colin is especially horrifying it seemed like he was just getting to understand his own mortality
Well, his death was sudden because remember one day before, he gave a very powerful speech on ATN and when he's going to the plane, he was still energetic and even when he talked to Roman on the phone, he was speaking normally. Heart attack is unpredictable, man.
This show is crazy.. the kids are obviously SPOILED brats, living in a bubble... BUT the oldman is a piece of work himself. pitting them against one another, gaslighting them at every turn and using them for his own benefit... There is NO escape for any of them and they simply CANNOT win, no matter what. They are trapped in this reality of luxury and betrayal
This clearly shows that none of the Roy siblings are going to get the top job in the end. They are not serious people. It's going to be done of the old guard, probably Gerri.
Rewatching this scene is amazing. Logan speaking truths even I was ignorant to, watching it the first time round. By the finale his words really ring true.
The way Tywin says "My CHILDREN" with such anger and disgust, then storms off. Cersei and Tyrion remain silent at the table, unable to look at each other. Great scene.
I kinda felt bad for Logan here. He just seems sad and defeated and lonely. When he says “fine” after Shiv called him a gaslight, I felt bad for the dude.
Because he finally realises that the “munsters” he surrounded himself with really weren’t a replacement for his accolades and children. Once he gained the former at the expense of his kids. He could’ve done this plenty of times before but just didn’t value them like that
And Shiv calling him a human gaslight while she keeps gaslighting Tom every fucking time to make sure she's right and Tom's wrong. Like father, like daughter.
And this really sets up the finale. In the end Roman is finally emancipated and realizes fully he can do whatever he wants, meanwhile Kendall is still holding up to a promise his daddy made him when he was seven and which molded his entire life
Looking back at the three first episodes of the season i think Logan sensed that his death was near First with his afterlife talk with Colin Then in this scene you can see the regret on his face
Yeah I think he must have known. Or at least had a sense of it. Either that or his regrets were just finally catching up with him as he realized he had no true friends or family that cared about him. The scene where he asks people to roast him is funny but it's also sad, it's clear that he just wanted friends to joke around with but he can't connect with them in any meaningful way and everyone is too scared of him.
Logan put into 1 statement what he spent a lifetime communicating to all his kids as he saw the type of people they were becoming. And he knew it was largely his doing. And he was terrifyingly at peace with that fact and coldly treated them as failed experiments that just needed to be managed out of his way for as long as possible. Amazing storytelling. Amazing character building. Amazing acting.
I KNEW that this type of scene between the family was placed too early in the season for not to mean something. After "Connors Wedding" it feels like a last gift from the authors.
