@@michaelhill959 yeah, but you have to have slippi open dolphin, be on Gamecube mode, then when you start dolphin hold the trigger down. Or, just don’t set the analog in the conch menu lol
I've always used my middle finger with the L and R triggers, so this is a non-issue for me. I pretty quickly removed the spring in my R trigger and kept it in my L when first starting to play this game, I don't see why you would violate game integrity for this when you could just learn to use your middle finger on R with the Z jump layout. For the record I do general digital shielding with R, light shield with L, L cancel with L and teching with R. The "optimal layout" is ultimately a personal preference, I really don't like the idea of making a considerable change that violates game integrity based on this tunnel-visioned set of how someone will play.
I agree with your sentiment, but the important issue is that solving this requires a modded controller, not just a layout switch. The shield button should just work.
Btw, you don't have to remove the spring (for people who want digital shield without 1.03). You can softly depress the L trigger while the game is starting up (down to right before the click happens; stop when there is resistance). There will still be spring, but you will only have digital shield and no light shield on that trigger. Note, this does prevent the analog L cancel, but if you really want you can do it with Z instead.
@@internnot7100 You're right. I did some research and apparently the triggers have two different clicks. So trigger tricking puts it through the first click I think. Very interesting. I don't think that l cancelling with z is viable though, because z now goes to X/Y and it is awkward to move the right thumb so much after every physical attack
one faulty mechanic i think you should consider more is port priority, i think the grab one is the easiest to fix, just make nobody grab and let their lagframes play out normally if both try to grab eachother at the same frame, in doubles it might be more complicated however, like if several people grab eachother in a chain at the same frame, you would have to have an accurate way of doing that, have checks for who grabbed who at any frame where a player grabs another player.
@@equinox3861 that is not at all what he works towards, it's the opposite. He has NERFED the boxx and he has BUFFED the gcc. Go back to twitter where you belong.
He literally says he's making these mods to buff gccs "so they're on par with box controllers" you fool. That's because boxes have an unfair advantage and should be banned.
@@equinox3861 nah not really, you have way way more angles on the gcc, there are plenty of things you can't do on the boxx that you can do on a gamecube controller, like perfect wavedashes. stop being whiny, and just go with the market, most tournaments accept it. if you don't like it, make your own tournament banning the boxx
I feel like this could be exploitable by modding a controller so that the analog threshold on the triggers starts right at the same range the digital threshold does (this could actually be achieved by pressing the triggers almost fully when plugging in the controller, no mods needed), then breaking the ground copper tracks that come from the digital button on the trigger and adding a capacitor that could delay the signal for approximately one frame. This way you would hit both analog and digital range at the same time, but would get the digital one a frame later, thus getting ADT pretty consistently. With the changes mentioned in the video, ADT would be the objectively best way of powershielding in the game, and could change the meta a lot in certain matchups if it was possible to achieve 100% of the time. Would like to know your thoughts on this
But if you have the mindset for having another button for adt it's might be giod, it's pretty situational for all thos time when you can't react at wether it's an aerial or projectile (falco exemple)
@@beansprugget2505 yes. But having a digital input that supposed to not exist in the game initially is cheating too, i'd agree that is not as much as a cheat but still.. Then worst than that, having a single button to pinpoint perfect in between coordonate of analog press as a digital press is arguably a worst xheat than having a macro. It's like having a single button actionning a robot doing the perfect pressure on a brush for callygraphy purposes, straightforward cheating. If people playing on boxx were honnest about equity or aware of that problem, they should want two stuff from that information : a pure analog press, like we've when we disable the digital in the gamecube controller ; or, still won't be equal but it'll still be best than what we have now, the last value of the analog press, aka the worst light shield. Since playing with a box is wanting to press button, having a purely mechanical, purely binary, purely garanteed, gameplay, they should'not beneficiate from the advantage of a nuance they don't perform, it's obvious to me. Only the one pulling the string halfway should have thep pros of the effort the control required. I know also why it's like that actually and it's absolutely outrageous, it's pure egoistically argumentation. Since they "nerfed" the digital press of the dash, they got the feeling that it was ok to pinpoint perfect location on a single button, so they choosed the perfect location of lightshield (even vetter than z-lightshield, by almost 10 locations), as it was ok and natural... Pure cheat. There is also mentality issues but those one are even harder to adress, and of course some of those touched by those issues would be here to argue the inarguable and try to steal all the credit from those who worked hard to be "calligraphes" (in my previous analogy) just to justified their legal for now but unfair cheats. I hope I've helped you realised the amount of rework that the community have to make to become a correct competitive community. We've to decide what we want as a group, even my advice is susceptible to debate. But unfortunatly there is no consensus now.
"Once you've removed a spring you can no longer light shield with that trigger" Yes you can. You can buffer a light shield with a digital press by performing an aerial and holding Z as you land.
hey hax i just wanted to say that you're my favorite melee content creator and i really love the work and careful precision of all you do. hope you're doing well man.
this change being on a mechanics level moreso than a controller level (I'm not sure the distinction makes sense programmatically) is kind of a deal breaker for me, I find every other controller fix really good though ^^
Hax why have you never ever mentioned the technique "hard light shield"? (I know you know this, but for others)-digital shields suffer from an issue similar to ADT in that a few early frames of the digital shield (only digital, no transition nonsense) get oowershields but for physical attacks. It messes up timing for a lot of oos counterattacks and results in weird smash attacks instead of aerials. It seems like it should be accounted for somewhere but I can't recall seeing anything for it. Why are there 2 light shield buttons but no hard light shield to avoid these unreactable powershields? It's definitely not a mechanic that needs fixing like ADT, but it puzzles me that the boxx doesn't have parity with GCCs in this respect. Am I missing something?
Claw grip if done badly can cause hand pain, people aren't taught good claw grip technique and it leads to having to switch off the gcc or suffer hand pain
I use claw. But I have small hands so im kinda relaxed/stretched out on the controller instead of having to curl my fingers to reach stuff. GCC is almost perfect for claw. I can play for hours and other than general fatigue only my index knuckle feels kinda sore from pressing jump. I also suck so maybe I'm just not playing fast enough to really hurt myself.
its also much cooler to be able to do it on a regular gamecube controller on a normal set up, rather than needing modded controllers or software or a PC set up
I don’t really like this fix but on emulator people just don’t put an input for the light press at all to get past it and suffer with tech lock outs instead and this fix is probably alright compared to that. To some extent ADT should be a mechanic in melee that you have to learn to deal with but modding controllers and the boxx circumvent it so this gives an even playing field at least.
@@lokouba I've never had an issue with it. It doesn't feel any more straining than with the middle finger behind the controller, if anything it's more comfortable because I don't have to move my index finger between two buttons in a perpendicular motion, they just sit where they naturally fall. Same way I've held controllers since the PS1 had 4 shoulder buttons.
@@lokouba yes, I play Fox. And even before I played Melee, that's how I held a controller for decades without any issues. Many other commenters have said the same elsewhere on this video. It shouldn't be any less comfortable than the alternative besides the fact that you aren't used to it. I find using box controllers uncomfortable because it's foreign to me. Same for writing with my opposite hand. I actually find it a bit uncomfortable to put my middle finger behind the controller because it either has to sit out on the hump behind the triggers or I have to slide my hands down the handle and strain my index and thumb more to reach (which also makes my pinkies barely grip so there's less leverage and more strain to hold it with the middle of my hand).
The button layout I have been using on goomwave you may want to consider adding to 1.03 as I think it is the best controller layout. Z jump, R grab (spring removed), X digital shield. This allows me to jump with Z for instant aerials, still jump cancel grab with the same motion as originally intended + buffer throw with c stick, and digital shield with X for powershields while still being able to wavedash out of shield with a different finger (when powershielding lasers I use X then WDOoS using Z to jump and L to WD), I also retained the spring in L trigger for light shield/analog L cancel.
There is a controller patch I wish happens Like Nick brawl my Chad platform fighter game, wavedash with jump air dodge at the exact same time and not quickly timed, like SSBU jump and attack at the same time etc
Every serious player already has done something regarding the adt. Though i'm against the adt fix. But I'm finally deciding that box shouldn't be legal, at least since ucf does'nt fix the most important mechanic (dashback out of crouch, smash di..) because having digital input in place of analog input is just too much with that many faulty mechanics. I've learn to perform dat powershield and it's an extremely advance technic but for a boxx player it's as simple as a dashdance... Just press two buttons... Melee competitive integrity seems dead to me. There is also a sophism in this video since you can play "correctly" with a "controller out of the box" you just have to perform a trigger trick and it's absolutely not difficult to perform, it's like saying wavedash should be just one button because it's not in the video of "how to play the game". Good video though, so many player don't know about those mechanics.
I don't understand the issue with using index finger for Z and middle finger for R. Why do you assume we only have one trigger finger per hand? Middle fingers for your triggers is better ergonomics anyway.
I mean it is crowded up there, it's not like z and r have the same size and room as a ps/Xbox controller where you can comfortably fit both fingers up there
@@burntfish123 the R button is huge and has a dip to keep your fingers isolated. There are 0 crowding issues, even with massive hands. The only problem that big hands would cause is being unable to hit Z at all without hitting R, not your two fingers overlapping.
I didn't even know about the adt problem, but it's honestly kind of absurd that it's even in the game to begin with. Breaking game integrity is definitely a big deal that the community should formally agree on if they were to standardize 1.03, but it seems absolutely insane that shielding would just randomly have 2 vulnerable frames in the middle of its animation. It's definitely bad design even if it has some real strategic ramifications. Also, not that it would be technically feasible, but I feel like the ideal solution would be to use a rollback. If it reads light shield on frame 1 and full shield on frame 2, rollback to frame 1 and recalculate those 2 frames as if it were a full shield from the start, thus eliminating the added benefit of the larger light shield bubble without changing the integrity of the game, just simulating what would've happened if you pressed the trigger in 1 frame, sort of like the other polling issue fixes like dash back. Frankly, if this were actually feasible, I could imagine rollbacks being a "better" or at least more integrity preserving alternative to the other polling issue fixes of which involved increasing the windows to 2 frames.
@@Rael0505 That's why I said "not that it would be technically feasible". I understand it probably isn't possible to implement a rollback system on base hardware, I just wanted to throw the idea out as a sort of "in a perfect world" solution. It *would* solve both the issue of the mechanic existing and the solution breaking integrity.
I recently got a high quality OEM controller with several mods. One that I debated over was going with a long trigger plug on R (digital R) and a short trigger plug on L (keep light shield but the analog distance is greatly reduced) OR getting a short plug on R and not touch L. I ended up going with the short plug on R because I have a bad habit of shielding with R (I wavedash and shield with the same button, hard to WD OoS) but I know that it will take some time to teach myself to use L for shielding instead. Keeping the light shield option on R means that when my instincts kick in to shield with R in high pressure situations, I get my light shield out ( I play Marth, light shield is essential for normal shielding imo). My conflict was that I also use R to powershield and I thought that a digital R press would make it easier to powershield (such as against repeated falco lasers - I often stuck in light shield when blocking those) but it seems like Hax is saying it is actually easier to powershield with your lightshield? While I will always use light shield, I often light shield unintentionally after a WD or in other scenarios so I figured a digital press would prevent that - but I don't know if I want to give that up if it means that powershielding is actually more difficult. I might be getting a phob next year and if I do I am tentatively planning on trying the short/long plug (which I could also swap out with my current buttons if I don't like it) and I feel like the overall advantages of not getting stuck in light shield, either when attempting to PS laser spam or any other time the analog value is unintentionally triggered (can also result in unintentional rolls), while still having full access to light shield on the other trigger, far outweigh the potential slightly tighter PS-timing on the R button. I also plan on getting the Z-Jump optional swap since frame 1 aerials sound amazing especially for double fair) Has anyone else used these mods for their shoulder buttons? Which do you prefer? I'm curious about other people's experiences.
@@lot8113 it puts more strain on your hands and wrists because you have to spread your fingers apart, and you end up resting the weight of the controller on 2 weaker fingers. Edit agreeing with you if that's unclear
another faulty mechanic is when you hit an opponent but you are at the same x value on screen with your root bone, it always sends left, you could perhaps make it send it the way you are facing in relation to what way the move sends, so a back air sends behind you, and forward air sends forwards.
To clarify: The transition from light shield to hard shield will make the shield fail for two frames regardless of number or frames of lightshielding before transition. Is the fix only for when hard shielding on frame 2, with slower/delayed transition to hard shield still making you vulnerable?
I z-jump and use my middle finger for right trigger (which is digital only). I wavedash by using z and my right trigger, just slapping my index finger and middle finger against their buttons in succession. I feel like I have all the benefits. Am I missing out on something?
idk if its tournament legal or not but my controller (its shit but it works) has a left bumper that i use to l cancel and z to jump if u then bind left trigger to shield/lcancel then u have both options available and its pretty comfortable. id assume stuff like goomwaves would also have extra buttons considering how nice they are
I genuinely don't understand the hate for 1.03. A lot of it is stuff that is already fixed by modifying a controller. Is it like a weird thing where people have to justify the money and time spent on something that shouldn't have been needed to begin with?
Honestly if the UFC team can't work with Hax$ to implement most of these fixes I'm switching to boxx. As a tradition fighting game player of 4 years coming into a game where people are okay with losing for doing the right thing while their equipment fails on them is beyond me.
I would really like people's feedback; Do you use shoulder/trigger buttons with 1 or 2 fingers for: Melee, the GC controller generally, or with any controller? I know the GC controller is unusual with only L and no ZL, but I'm interested to learn that some people do not use both the index & middle fingers for R & Z.
none of the top players use b0xx's yet we talk about nerfing the box and bringing the gc up to pairty every day? why? clearly its not better than the gamecube controller or we would see it in the results i do not think the game should be edited just to accomodate one particular 3rd party controller. it makes no sense. and i dont think the box should even consider being nerfed in any regard until it can win a tournament.
Does ADT happen if you just press all the way down on analog but don't full press (into digital). Because if not, then it just seems like another thing that people should just get used to (I'm assuming that the full analog shield is the same, shield stun and push back wise, as the digital shield).
Wait, the argument is that a GameCube controller isn't as good as the BOXX, so we need to make changes to the game and controllers to be at the same level as the BOXX? Seems backward.
What about wavedashing with jump and air dodge at the same time like Nickelodeon all star brawl, Jump and attack buttons working at the same time like SSBU?
the thing thats hilarious is that the vast majority of players obviously use gamecube controllers. Your whole argument is based on the fact that since the BOXX is legal, the gamecube controller should be able to be as good as the BOXX. the obvious reality is that the majority of players dont care about this and just want to continue playing the same melee. That is why the only real solution if you want to continue pursuing this is to make a BOXX controller that has EXACTLY the same problems as a gamecube controller. not the other way around. You are spending your energy backwards.
In his mind the only way to play Melee is on the BOXX, which is very evident in the way he frames his arguments and plugs the box at every opportunity. Must not be selling enough units.
If the boxx wasn't better than controllers people won't buy it... It's an elitist type of things. That's why ucf is not updated enough. I never understood why the first boxx project was'nt analog, but i presume it was because it was the simplest way to adress the issue that we want fixed now...
@@SanitysTheif I think that's absolutely not true, the only major impact is that it's create a glass ceiling based partially on how much people want to pay to be update...
The 107th Faulty Melee Mechanic: Why The Community Must Accept 1.13.3 as the Standard for Competitive Play. The advanced learning algorithm within the b0xx that predicts the users optimal wavedash length based on its analysis of over 100,000 games of melee is vital to the game, but is unfair to players who use a regular gamecube controller. In this patch I propose that we remove wavedashing entirely, as there is unfortunately no feasible way to bring gamecube controllers up to the level of the b0xx in this particular case.
@@equinox3861 Did you even try 1.03?? I have played on it and it’s great, dashing back out of crouch is very consistent for one. Which I like very much
"cant z-jump out of a lightshield" bruh you can press R with your middle finger. Also z-jumping should be banned. All of this BS should be banned. Let me take a quote hax said multiple times in regards to a certain swedish player who I despise "He is changing the game and community we love..." What is hax trying to do? Change the game at a fundamental level. No. We love melee for its weirdness. If you can't accept that then this isn't the game for you. Maybe rivals of ether or brawlhalla is your game. Hell maybe ultimate is more your speed. I hate to defend leffen here but hax has done more damage to the current state of the game than leffen ever did. We are in the weirdest era of controller rules. There are no rules. I could build a box with a macro that allows perfect ledge dashes and no one will know because no one is checking and its not against the rules apparently. Wasn't the intention of the rule variation that allowed UCF that the box snuck in on to make more controllers more viable and make it so anyone could compete with any controller? The state its in now if you aren't playing on a third party controller you're not winning. Those third party controllers cost $200+ get the hell out of here trying to make this game only for people who can afford to spend that kind of money.
Thinking 3rd party boards should be banned is crazy. Then we go back to the controller lottery system, where people were paying hundreds of dollars for first party boards
If the boxx wasn't better than controllers people won't buy it... It's an elitist type of things. That's why ucf is not updated enough. I never understood why the first boxx project was'nt analog, but i presume it was because it was the simplest way to adress the issue that we want fixed now...
