The 64mm Burr Rabbit Hole 

And tbh It could have been way a bigger video🤪 had I had a few more DF64s and other burrs to test .. but omg I think I’ve found my limits lol

Yea man i was thinking the same thing. Thank you for taking the time to do all this for us Josh. Really appreciate you sharing your passion and knowledge with us 🙏🏾

Couldn't agree more. This was awesome. I'm learning and about to invest a lot of money, so glad I found this...

@@AlternativeBrewing well, when you reach 50K subs, you can run these tests 3 times (a day or a week pause in between, your pick) and let's see if your results are consistent or if there are jitters in the data set :) one run is not a big enough sample, you know...

Glad it was helpful!

Wow, thank you!

Awesome, thank you! and welcome 😀

Awesome! Thank you!

My pleasure!

You're welcome 🫶

You're very welcome!

Thanks so much!

😌 Glad it was helpful!

Awesome, thank you!

My pleasure!

Glad you enjoyed it!

You're so welcome!

You're welcome 😊 glad you liked it

Thank you very much!

Wow, thanks! Glad you enjoyed it

You're welcome 😀

Glad you enjoyed it!

My pleasure 🙏

I sometimes wonder if there would be a business in setting up a pop up cafe-like set-up with 7 grinders, all pre-dialled in and have a crew of invited aficionados taste all the burr differences. This would certainly be of extreme value to the more intense geek home baristas trying to figure out what grinder they prefer without having to spend 100k and test them for years 😂

That would be somewhere I'd love to hang out! 🫶 thanks for watching

Glad it was helpful!

You're very welcome!

Cheers 😀

thanks so much!

No problem!

Awesome! Thank you! Good choice 👌

😂 yep

😂 Glad you enjoyed it!

100% 🙌 the tricky part ... getting it consistent enough to be reliable 😂

Thank you kindly!

Which video was it?

That's so awesome ! 🫶 😀 Thanks for sharing!

No problem 👍

Thanks Frank!

100% ! unfortunately Australia has not received their shipment of these, but as soon as I get my hands on them 👌

Thanks so much! 👌 Had a tonne of fun making it! I learned a lot too, which is always valuable. Thanks for watching

You're very welcome! SSP MP would be my preference over SSP HU for espresso tbh - It is a knife-edge when dialling in, and it depends on what coffee you're using with what spectrum of the flavour profile you're targeting - however, SSP MP are 'multi-purpose' 😀 so work equally well for filter too, whereas the HU's would be great for a long-lasting set, mainly for milk-based or darker than medium Espresso only IMHO

I have the SSP MP for about a month now and while I can only compare to the titanium, the SSP MP seems to be a more balanced overall. Really quite happy with it and not planning to put back the titanium.

Hi there. What a huge effort!How about the cast burrs? Would you still chose them over the itamills or HU for espresso? Thank you

Niche Zero probably?

The SSP HU's most certainly would. As well as Gorilla Gear 👌 Thanks so much for watching 😀

Thank you kindly!

Couldn't agree more! thanks for watching 👌

So was it the v2 or the v3 cs dlc?

yeah - sorry - i didn't put myself through this to sell burrs as much as I wanted to really break down what each burr set meant to coffee IRL 😂 sometimes coffee tastes so close - I'm too hesitant in forming a bias that I have to truly say something that's sitting on the fence. That goes for positive and negative bias. I rarely do sit on the fence though fwiw 🫶

@@AlternativeBrewing I just corrected my comment, very positively.. pardon me please for being so critical...

thanks 😀

Regardless, great effort on the video! Huge task. Kudos

@@ME-mf7xp hahaha never! Lol

Waiting for you to make the same video 😀😀

@@taufikramadhan9403 ha! I'll need 7 fellow odes or df64s or something. I have loads of grinders but not any repeats lol! Actually... I do have 3 df 64s (different models), a fellow ode, a g64, and the hb64... hmmmmm

@@LanceHedrick do it, do it, do it!!!! Double Dog Dare YOU!

Hahaha thanks for the concern! Yeah it was hectic but enjoyable.

Thanks so much for the kind words 🙌 Yea - these were version 1 Lab sweet burrs. Keen to get the newest versions for sure 👌

Would love to hear about your experience with the cast steel 👌

Are you referring to the mizen burrs?

No pre-infusion at all. This might be the main difference. Certainly PI makes a huge difference to the overall time of the shot. Sounds like the burrs just need to be seasoned though. In my experience with unseasoned burrs - shots always run wild until the burrs are broken in. FWIW - I did not have a hard time grinding fine enough. Perhaps maintaining the 18g, or 1g over that in the VST basket could make a change to time.

You bet!

You got this! I’m keen to check out the Fellow Opus ✌️

@@AlternativeBrewing As i have already the stock burrs of mazzer (033m), i am between cast and MP burrs, i drink light/medium roasts for espresso I don't care for heavy body, but i don't want it to be totally absent I hope that MP will not disappoint me at this

@@AlternativeBrewing Guess what I bought SSP multipurpose and after some time they gave me more clarity, better acidity and a cleaner cup Money well spend

@@wakeawaken430 that’s what I love to hear 🙌

thanks 😀 !

I didn't like the cast burrs.

@@BensCoffeeRants how much have you seasoned?

@@ahpadt I used them for like 4 months but did also have other grinders I was using. So they weren't seasoned. The Option O Mizen burrs seem better out of the box no seasoning required. I never noticed much difference for flat burrs and seasoning for conicals I think it's more important however for some reason maybe the ssp cast burrs need seasoning, because some people seem to like them and say they improve with seasoning. But I don't have patience for that.

Thank you! Cheers!

🫶 thanks so much for the kind words

Yes for sure. - however I hadn't had any experience with Cast Steel Burrs leading up to this - and the amount of fines that came out of the chute when grinding from the CS burrs caught my eye a little - imagining less than ideal clarity from the shot - and in retrospect of the live test - the CS burrs never had the most clarity - always great balance of body with texture integrated with sweetness and acidity;

Great point! I might have to put this in another video 😀

@@AlternativeBrewing Be Sure that we are unpatiently waiting 😃

Just to clarify, you're happy with the flavour of the current stock burrs but missing texture a little in the extractions? Before purchasing a new burr set - I would recommend perhaps playing around with Ratios, lowering the ratio may achieve this - or lowering the extraction temperature too as well. I'm yet to be convinced my SSP HU tests are conclusive to its flavor Profile - as I'm yet to really played around with the way I brew with them. I've heard and read feedback from both camps on the SSP HU burrs - one side saying similar to what I find - "they provide a very classic full body espresso, not highlighting brightness too much , however without a lot of negatives either - so not a lot of bitterness, dryness or lifeless shots. Then there's those who say the love the clarity and sweetness that come from the more uniform Espresso burrs. To answer your question - the difference between #1 and #2 is not a lot. 1,2,3 seems grouped in that particular presentation - and almost a clear difference as a group, to #4 and so on.

Glad I could help! NOt difficult at all. The top of the Grinder comes off real easy - and then it's 3 screws on each burrs set 👌

SSP HU, I'm not sure I can explain this thoroughly. In my experience with side by side recipes, it never has anything but high texture and body - though, as stated in the video - I do believe these particular burrs require a different approach to brewing - to get the best out of them. Apologies - for supposing the burrs are no good in relation to the test - I know plenty of those who love these SSP HU burrs. I have to follow the rabbit hole a little more to unlock the full potential of the ones in particular.

@@AlternativeBrewing Thank so much ☺️ Love your content

I believe they are compatible yes. As SSP mention ECM on their own website. IMHO ive never thried the stock ECM burr - but know a thing or two about stock products - and generally - they'll do the job just fine - however you don't get much better a burr manufacturer than SSP.

Hey! An 83mm version burr would not by default taste better than a 64mm version of the same burr - as the Grinders are still have variance with in them - notably - the size of the motor, RPM, burrs, burr chamber etc... so these will have impact on the profile of the grinder. I am yet to have any experience using the P64 unfortunately, nor the Zerno Z1, so I cannot help in with these comparisons ... yet! I agree though - there are so many flat burr grinders to choose from. Whatever happened to the mid-range Conical burr? In this regard - I have been pleasantly surprised and enjoy coffee from the Varia VS3 Grinder, as it is a conical, slow RPM grinder given great results for price. Otherwise - I wouldn't suggest DF83 over DF64V if you prefer Filter Coffee - low rpm Filter coffee, along with the ability to perhaps purchase a higher uniformity burr set in the 64mm size is a much better option than the stock standard 83mm burrs, and there's not many options out there for addition burrs otherwise. If not thinking about upgrading burrs at any stage - than the DF64V still makes better sense with the variability of RPM allowing for more profile variance. Does the roaster you source from roast Filter coffee by any chance? It sounds like they may only roaster an espresso style, as this would make sense why it tasted great in a moka pot but you struggle with filter brews. Filter brewing requires a very different approach to roasting, in order to be able to extract the nuances in the cup when it comes to brewing it 🫶

Other than the SSP Red Speed MP burrs, all were a higher uniformity of a bi-modal distribution. SSP HU and GG having higher again than regular Italmill burrs.

I had the same problem and ended up buying a new grinder 😅 Did you manage to find a solution?

SSP MP Red Speed or Silver Knight would be the best for this - though they are expensive. - For half that the Fellow Ode Gen2 are an improvement on the Gen1s - though - on the flip side - maybe not a bigger enough improvement idk - I just got the Ode 2 recently - still trialling it out. Will let you know for sure 👌

Yes - all true - and I do hint towards this in the video. The fact the burrs are so different from one another- there’s very little way to represent them in a relatable and easy to follow comparison - so I chose to dial them in to a reasonably simple recipe. Perhaps I should revisit the SSP HU Burrs at some point to really explore more of the capabilities- as for now, with my understanding of them, they have not been able to brew with high clarity, sweetness or bright acidity - as HU suggests - but usually brew a great texture, depth and complexity.

Yes - it is meant to be such - though- I cannot say for sure - as I do not have a Peak side by side with it 😀

So this is often the case with these style of burrs and brewing espresso. 1: there’s a period of breaking the burrs in. At least 2-5kgs at a fine grind, before it settles to be very consistent. Often this period of breaking in, you experience fast flows. 2: These style of burr produce a much higher uniformity of grind the default burrs - this means flow rate is generally faster. So adjusting HOW you make espresso, by working with the new faster flow rates, and brewing with a higher Brew Ratio like a 1:3, and /or using more or less coffee in the basket can achieve better flavour results on the espresso

@@AlternativeBrewing thank you for the tip!

Hey, I would have used the the SSP CS V2 Silver Knight Burrs. The SSP CS Espresso Burrs are the Red Speed version that I imagine a much better for Espresso versus the Silver Knight V2 burrs - that aren't superb for managing the flow on espresso. Runs a little too fast. - However - all depends what you're using them for. Espresso is always harder to achieve - so if its Espresso you're brewing - Id go with the V3 Red Speed.

Yes 🫶

Eventually! There’s not as many variations atm, and yes I would propose the same outcomes but would still like to do it 😁

Apologies yes, you are correct Ben - each manufacturer has their own wording to describe the treatment of hardening the surface of the burr. I cannot comment on whether DLC and Silver Knight are similar in hardness - trying to dig up this info on the net - though this most likely will have to come from the manufacturers. The SSP Cast Steel Burrs - are in fact - of the Silver Knight coating 👍

Did you compare too the Itamil titanium with S Steel for espresso ? are really different for taste a'd clarity ?

​@@tarekh1377 me? I didn't have the titanium and regular stock steel burrs in the DF64s side by side unfortunatly so can't really compare them besides from my memory (or lack thereof). But I remember really liking the results from my Titanium burr one and thinking maybe I liked it better than the plain stock steel burr DF64 (which I also liked). For the extra small amount some retailers charge to switch from stock burr to titanium coated one, it's worth it I'd think, but if you already have the stock burrs, they're good for espresso too. I wonder if the titanium ones would be better for filter coffee though! The steel ones weren't great there, but that's comparing vs SSP HU and MP burrs.

@@BensCoffeeRantsthanks, I drink only espresso and I have stock burrs I like them ! I remember I was close to add extra and choose the titanium burrs , but i thought i'm going to quickly change stock burrs for ssp, but at the moment i don't see it, i want a balanced espresso a body and clarity,Itamil are good for that the cast burrs can offer better, but what i see he is tricky and difficult to adjust for espresso like he is designed for the filter !

@@tarekh1377 I actually prefer the stock burrs to the SSP Cast burrs, but the cast burrs might get better clarity after seasoning, I didn't get much clarity out of them and didn't wanna bother seasoning them with 15-30lbs of coffee :O Oh one possible advantage of the non coated burrs is that they should get seasoned quicker, but besides possibly with the SSP cast burrs I haven't noticed much change with flat burrs before and after seasoning.

The SSP cast burrs are made in the tradition of the Ditting burrs yes. The cast burrs will do fine for any recipe, more so than High Uniformity burrs, - you'll just be adjusting to the right grind setting which will be much different to standard burrs. I found you have to go finer You certainly can do a Turbo shot in the picopresso - just got to pump fast! 😂

@@AlternativeBrewing Thank you kindly for answering!

ahhh - espresso does drastically change the perceived flavour as it cools. What you may want to try do is pull a longer Lungo style espresso - so less concentrated. This may help alleviate some of negative flavour your getting. As espresso is so concentrated - it only needs to taste a little off, to be really unpalatable. Alternatively try heating your cups or adding some hot water to the espresso - like an americano / long black 👌

Would have been the V1s 👌

@@AlternativeBrewing Thanks for the quick response!

Yes it can. THough I would suggest - you more likely to discover it does a better job at the nuanced coffee, and dialling in for Milk with 2:1 ratios may be more of a chore

Could the HU burrs on the super jolly improve the super jolly's shots from a clarity and complexity standpoint? It seems like they just produce heavy shots but maybe they have some ability to do this. I like that the lifetime of the burrs is greater with the red coating .

@@JuliusSP1 100% they will yes. If you're just using default Mazzer burrs, the the SSP HU will improve the overall quality of the coffee produced 👌

Very! This was my first time using any cast steel burrs and am pretty set on getting a pair now

Thanks so much for shopping with AB! These burrs were the ones I had available at the period of receiving the 7xDF64s. There are many many other burrs left out of this video - 64mm Mazzer burrs, Gen2 Ode Burrs, Fiorenzatos own & so on.. the Geometry of the Burr makes a bigger difference than the coating in regards to the perceived difference of a burr sets flavour profile. So wether Red Speed or Silver Knight SSP MP burrs, it’s relevant to the hardness of the burr - however both have similar profiles.

@@AlternativeBrewing somewhat. Don't underestimate the massive effects a large coefficient of friction can have on a cup!

@@LanceHedrick Care to Elaborate on what effects you have noticed from higher coefficient of friction? I bought a pair of Red Speed cast burrs from Sworksdesign because I kept finding forum posts about the silver knights potentially taking 30+ kilos to break in- but Red Speed appears to be higher coefficient of friction. If red speed generates more microfines, I'm afraid i might find myself a bit disappointed lol.

@@ME-mf7xp it's a video on burrs. Can you even blame me!?!

@@Zirassi haha I can only speculate but I definitely taste a difference. Ill *hopefully* be getting a laser soon and all can be known objectively

Not sure - but I'm keen to find out

Also my thought.... DF64 Gen 2 - stock DLC or SSP HU burr set (for my daily medium-to-dark espresso blends)? I have good offer atm and I must make decision soon...

all good 🫶 yes they were all burrs that had had plenty of coffee run through them already

Eureka? These are made in Italy, so I only imagine they may be of good price within Europe?

@@AlternativeBrewing yes spécialita is at 400 euros, oro single dose 600 euros and xl 650

@@David-pn1bc Check the "turbo" as cheapest Eurekas 65mm.

hahaha 1000% 👍

With markers and alfoil for these test grinders.

I am curious too!

I’m not sure about ‘very’ subjective as in I’m trying to subjugate my viewers- it’s subjective from the perspective your watching me taste and explain everything in order to reach an understanding - yet that result relies on my subjective experience of taste.

align cast lab sweet make a big difference with uniformity,mine on ode before shimed the alignment is very bad.

@@JayLinItachi yeah I had them in a df64 but also had another set in a p64. I remember thinking they were about the same in taste with only slight benefits to going lower RPMs on the p64. I can't remember for sure but I thought maybe I liked them better at first. the df64 which I had the shop align when they installed the burrs and it might have been decent at first but alignment got thrown off (going by sound of burr touch) possibly from having a bunch of coffee end up above the top burr in the burr carrier. Not sure if alignment really stays in place with shims or might have just been a df64 v3 issue v4 might be better or just was a misbehaving df64 some seem better than others. I have a theory if you start with a higher uniformity more unimodal burr when alignment is off you still get good results so that's a pro for the Ssp MP.

@@BensCoffeeRants how are you liking the mizen burrs now?

@@samwise2010 I still haven't gotten them! First batch was a little short for some grinders so they included a set of shims to make them taller, I opted to wait for the 2nd batch that didn't require shims, however, got impatient after another delay so I'll be getting the shimmed version SOON, and then the non Shimmed version later as well :D

@@BensCoffeeRants I have them and they are very yummy

Coating has the effect of reducing heat as well. So yes , creating less fines and grinding overall far more efficiently will create a more narrow grind distribution and better cup profile. It doesn’t take much to shift the profile when reducing fines out of the cup- as fines will usually make a a large proportion of the surface area during extraction.

Yeah I used to get headaches, and yes they were bad 🥲 now it’s restless sleep and dehydration 😂

I've heard this as well yes. Though I have not tested this myself

@Alternative Brewing Okay. Thanks for the extensive review! They all look good to me. I like clarity but I also like milk based drinks. Maybe gorillas are the best for me?

@@sebaba001 Yea I'd agree with that 👌 Gorilla were good for this 👌

I can understand too, it's only the coating. But this does make a large difference to how the beans interact with the surface of the burrs. At a microscopic level, a better coating will heat up less and provide less friction and allow beans to funnel through in to the teeth of the burrs more consistently - rather than tumbling about a little more. When beans a broken up - every time there is a fracture of the bean - fines are created. So the less the burrs need to work - the get the beans to the final grind size - the better the outcome is.

SSP MP Burr Set by far 👌

@AlternativeBrewing I just got the Option 0 P64 w the SSP Brew burrs.

Perfect 🤩

I was😵‍💫 thanks for watching