I don’t have a “patron” deity as I feel it’s very orthodox Christian patron saint type thing to do, but if I did, Ægir would be it. Yes he’s a Jötunn, but he brews beer for the Gods. I’ve brewed beer for 12 years now and I’m currently very involved in the beer industry. I think it comes down to intent, and by all I’ve read Ægir’s intent is of good will toward the Æsir. In the Lokasenna it says Ægir’s hall is a place of peace.
As a former Christian I was taught growing up that God didn’t create evil. Evil is anything that goes against God’s will. On the other hand, my Jewish friends said they are taught that God created both good and evil.
As someone who is almost a year into Norse Heathenry I want to thank you for these videos as I find myself coming back to these videos over and over to find more and more knowledge in my journey thank you
Hel is indeed "misunderstood" in modern times, because as Bryan Wilton wrote, her "sun-facing" aspects have been transferred to other goddesses. Many death goddesses also oversaw birth and life events, but now represent just one aspect.
I really admire the approach that you and other pagans have towards the diversity of spiritual experience. As someone who found their way out of Christianity thanks to atheism, I nevertheless have a deep hunger for spirituality, but could never find a way to intellectually justify it. It turns out I am still thinking in terms of latent Christianity 😅 It seems that there is a whole range of options between Christianity and atheism.
Sounds more to me like you're agnostic. I am as well, and also a former Christian, but thanks to this channel (and my own interest, casual as it is, in the subject) I'm finding myself more drawn to Norse paganism.
I'm in exactly that position too. It's helping me a lot to watch stuff like this, and to think back to the time before I became a Christian, when I was probably the most genuinely open-minded I've ever been. Beliefs like this make much more sense to me, as they actually connect to the land and relate to the group living there, whilst not being exclusive.
@@nachobidness2553 True, although in the actual mythology, Farbauti weren't nessecarily "frosty" since I don't know if it's ever confirmed what type of Jotun he was.
@@Lupinemancer87 I didn't mean to imply that Farbauti was a frost giant. I was referring to the Marvel Laufey as Loki's frosty father. This wiki excerpt is interesting: "If Fárbauti as 'dangerous striker' refers to 'lightning', the figure would appear to be part of an early nature myth alluding to wildfire (Loki) being produced by lightning (Fárbauti) striking dry tinder such as leaves (Laufey) or pine needles (Nál)."
@@Lupinemancer87 More specifically, the larger, impersonal chaotic forces, as opposed to the more pastoral, local, and approachable Venir. I included the wiki quote because I found it to be an interesting interpretation. A lot of heathens quote the Eddas, but don't really speak much about the myths reflecting how our people perceived the world.
I saw a video by Arith harbor (sp?) That changed my perspective on Jormangand, from giant evil snake, to a midgard protector villainized by Christian writers. So, I offer prayer to Jormangand to help protect me from snakes at my job. And its actually worked! At least I think it has worked.
@@mariafury1047 Arith Härger ä = ae, it is one of the three letters that only excists in north germanic alphabets and in some non indo-european languages like in hungarian, finnish, estonian, and so on. Ä=aa, Ä= ae Ö= oe,
@@marcusfridh8489 I am aware of the correct spelling as I am studying Old English. However, my ipad doesn’t can’t do what is necessary and I didn’t have time to cut and paste.
This is honestly really nice. Having multiple, distinct yet fluid gods mirrors the fluid complexity of reality that just doesn't fit into nice boxes. Especially in a time before the mechanization of the universe, this wouldn't have been a problem for believers. And its nice that you aren't trying to take these ideas, concepts, and views and MAKE them fit into modern, mechanistic boxes. I like that. Your videos are always a breath of fresh air compared to the Christian theology and apologetics I am around so often. Even though I don't believe, I still find myself always coming back to your videos. Keep going and I hope your channel keeps up the momentum
When I was younger and didn’t believe in this the more concrete way I do now (half-joking half-seriously: Mythological studies radicalized me into paganism), I was fascinated by the idea of polytheism because I have this inclination to classify things into little groups and lists. I loved going on deep dives of old and new religions and seeing what every deity was in charge of what, what where their stories and relations to one another and where they “lived”… sometimes I would even rewrite my own mythology. For some time, I was quite enamored with the idea of Thor and Sif being star crossed lovers during the Aesir-Vanir war - I was writing Asatru Fanfic, basically. How embarassing...
Okay but like that's like the best way you /could/ be a polytheist. You aren't letting the faith stagnate: Ancient faiths would change the stories and write new ones all the time. You're just continuing the oldest tradition any faith has: Telling stories about the gods.
As someone who is new to the faith, this helped alot. And also has answered some questions I had. Always hungry for more knowledge, I look forward to the next video 😎🍻 Thanks ocean,truly
Really informative. One of my favourite things about Heathenry is that there is no central authority, it’s a personal journey - but that does mean that it can be hard to understand the stories and the Gods.
The last time I told someone I was polytheist with no other explanation they asked if I was Buddhist. I politely told them no, Norse polytheist, then they noticed my Morning amulet and were pretty stunned yet curious. Had a good chat with them on my spiritual beliefs vs his as an evangelist. I was kinda surprised when he told me to have my gods bless me, it was kinda touching to hear from a Christian.
I think a couple of months ago on a video I said I’d like to hear more about landwights and you have very graciously provided that and so much more. Also I like to think of Christianity as like a Zoroastrian fanfic, it seems like that’s where they got all their best ideas, the Bible was the original fanfic and nobody can change my mind.
That was a really, really impressive pun. Then you tied it in with a final Loki pun. You write a damn good script for your videos too. Hail to you Ocean!
Loved the intro. Some time ago, I was having a think and it occurred to me that house mice might be the physical embodiment of ancestor spirits. If for no other reason than they have been living with us since we started storing grain and having permanent shelters.
Is it possible the Vanir are more interested/involved in the happenings with elves and dwarves? This would explain Freyr's tooth gift and the Aesir being chiefly involved with humanity.
I wish we had the whole of Cicero's text--or that he'd been able to finish it, perhaps. On the Nature of the Gods could have been many a conversation I've had on Twitter today, and it's tantalizing that we're missing much of his discussion on providence.
Yeah there's a whole section of On the Nature of the Gods that's just missing. It's frustrating to realize that when reading it, because the missing section likely discusses the Skeptic's view on the Gods, which I would have loved to read.
Really liked this. I guess my outstanding (unanswerable?) question is where the boundaries between the gods are? Are the Norse "Sol", Anglo-Saxon "Sunne", Celtic "Sulis" and Baltic "Saule" the same "entity", for example? They're all Sun Goddesses [probably] from a common linguistic root, but that doesn't necesarily mean they are the same goddess.
in case you aren't aware of these terms: "hard polytheist" and "soft polytheist", the former position would say that all those gods Are distinct entities, while the latter would say that they are all different names for the same goddess.
Yes if you are a soft polytheist that believes that every god is related to each and one singular being. Another example: Hephaestus is Vulcan and they are the same being. No, if you are a hard polytheist that becomes that they are separate beings due to them being in different cultures and the cultures viewing them differently. Example: Hephaestus is not Vulcan due to Hephaestus is Greek, Vulcan is Roman. They both have similar characteristics but different and separate
@@covenawhite4855 That is a soft polytheist worldview of deities or singularity of all gods just being one god but different in terms of regional mythologies, cultural beliefs and how they act / function in terms of said cultural worldview. It becomes henotheistic or soft polytheistic really fast
I mean, I personally think that gods can "split off" or "give birth" to other gods that are very similar, or at the very least can be multifaceted and understood by different people in different ways. I think it very much depends on exactly how different the god is understood. If they could, within reason, be considerably similar to the point they have only one or two differences, I may argue they are the same, understood differently because of cultural differences (for example, a culture adopting another cultures god but using a different name or using their own methods of worship/ritual). But for the most part, it seems like some people do get a little carried away with combining gods 😅 depends on your own ideas, though! To each their own, the gods are likely unfazed, as they clearly deal with both soft and hard polytheists alike! I have even had a god tell me (indirectly, in a way) that what I call them doesn't matter, as they remain the same regardless of my interpretations.
I find the Landwights interesting, some pagans with animistic beliefs have sacred trees or sacred places that they avoid disturbing because of their connection to spirits but the Norse were busy settlers. They killed animals, they cut down trees, they mined the land etc. I wonder how they reconciled exploiting resources with acknowledging nature spirits.
I have a few guesses as to how that might've played out. Keep in mind that I haven't done reasearch, so this is all speculation. Though places or particular things were considered sacred, it may be the case that not all were - as such resources would be gathered from more profane areas. It is also possible that the use of a resource might be held sacred in itself. Such as wood having a sacred use as protection in the construction of sheilds or house building. The same could be said for medicinal plants for healing. Some people were also probably just dicks and harvested sacred things or from sacred spaces despite their sacred status.
In other traditions we tend to see prayers and sacrifices being done to appease land/nature spirits in conjunction with hunting or lumbering as a sort of exchange. "We took this so to compensate and show appreciation we'll give you this." Obviously cutting down trees or digging a mine or killing animals is going to happen because we need the resources. The goal of the relationship between humans and the land spirits therefore is not one of total abstinence but rather one of balance. We are to not take more than is necessary and we are to express gratitude for what we take
I've often thought that there may be universal essences or beings with different characters that are given different forms in different cultures but are the same. So Odin and Zeus, or Tyr and Mars, for example, may just be different faces from different cultures for the same essential beings.
Just wanted to say keep up the good work. Felt it was important to pay respects when seeing good arguments both for and against and even more importantly the different perspectives and respect for differences of opinions.
Amazing video as always, Ocean! Loved all the puns at the beginning (especially the "low-key" one just after the intro.) I've been checking out and considering polytheism (esp. Heathenry) for a while now, but I haven't fully entered into practice yet. I definitely lean towards Rokkatru in some regards. With Loki and family certainly playing a big role in that, but also Skađi. (Ægir and Rán too, loved your video on them by the way.) Though I am not just interested in Rokkr, I have a general interest in, like, everything Norse. So Æsir and Vanir get some love too. As for Gods outside of Heathenry, I'd definitely take some form of syncretism (if I'm using the word right.) I could probably incorporate some Kemeticism and Hellenism. My favorite non-Norse Gods come from there. (I must have some sort of Chthonic bias since they're Anubis, Thanatos, and Hades.) Honestly, the only hard exceptions I could think of would be the Abrahamic gods. I'm not interested in the whole exculsive worship thing. (Edited some grammar and phrasing.)
I love the background music, though it often reminds me of how my old church always had calming music playing while we listened every Sunday morning. 🤣 it always has been, and still is, calming to listen to while people talk.
As a devotee of Heimdallr, I was disappointed yet again that this, bit not surprised, that this enigmatic God was not mentioned. I don't blame Ocean Keltoi for this, as honestly, Rigr could take up several episodes. I just hope that as I watch more episodes of these great discussions, my fulltrui will get a shout out (nudge nudge hint hint) ,
This is such a phenomenal video with a great over view and several jumping off points for more in depth reflection. One of the things I've most been drawn to is the idea of order vs. chaos. I read a series of books growing up that made me cognizant of it being as much a way of parsing the world as good vs. evil. I love how you describe the Jotun as chaotic, not necessarily evil. The world is such a varied and nuanced place, and that's what's so beautiful about it.
I really enjoy your work! I’m so glad I was able to find this channel. I sometimes feel a bit weird because as a former Christian, I have to explain to some of my still Christian friends that no, I do still believe that the persons of the Trinity are real. In particular, I would consider Jesus among the last of the demigods or at lease deified humans. However, given that as far as we are aware, exclusivity is demanded, I no longer worship them though I acknowledge them. They have a really hard time grasping that I acknowledge their existence even though I separate out a lot of the claims made. I for instance tend to consider the Unmoved Mover properties to require such transcendence as to disqualify the Abrahamic god as conceptualised in Christianity.
So do you believe the Christian God was just another god that tried to claim more authority than He rightfully had? No disrespect intended I just find that idea interesting.
@@FlyingAlfredoSaucer I’m not even necessarily certain that the Christian (or Abrahamic) god did, that it was left more to the religious establishment to eventually do so.
10/10 on the puns at the beginning And amazing video!! And I do count the saints as their own mini gods to people. I am still looking into saint things and things like that. Love the video!
Okay, I'm definitely loving your videos! You're engaging me and challenging preconceived notions driven into me by fundamentalist beliefs. This is EXACTLY what I need right now! 💖💖💖
The kind of "overwhelming" power felt from a spiritual experience is something I feel whenever I look out at nature. Just observing and taking in the Natural world, in like a forest or by a river or what have you, gives me the same overwhelming feeling one would get in a spiritual experience. This is what has lead me to animism, and more specifically Shinto. Your videos are awesome and I appreciate them. My patron deity, if I have one, is Amaterasu, the goddess of the Sun and Queen of all creation
Ocean, that was good. Especially the beginning. Something in your speaking of the importance of nature. I always liked a lot of stories and songs from the Norse, and the Danes, and because, though yes they raided, they did more trading and into the Celtic lands, they also settled. The music and artwork showed that, then DNA proved it. But, until the christians came, they, like the natives here in the americas, held wolves and ravens, crows, well, all corvids, as good. They respected their intelligence, never drove them away. More often they were hailed, welcomed. As all the corvids can mimic any sound as well, if not better than parrots, I'd imagine that would have impressed people. Plus how daring they are. And wolves, well obviously they were admired. Probably fed, tamed, as we have dogs, lol. But some of the old music is often dedicated to them. 👍💖🥰✌😷🎃
Firstly, I'm just starting my studies into Norse Paganism and this breakdown was very helpful. Thanks! Secondly, referring to certain Christians as "people who think their god is like Tigger--he's the only one" is just amazing. I actually laughed at that simile.
Gods as entities that evoke and deserve awe - though maybe not always worship or devotion - is also a very good way of explaining Japan's Kami. They are not perfect, sometimes they are not even what humans would view as good, but they have their place in nature and are worthy of respect if nothing else.
Also the loa of Haitian voodoo. They are powerful spirits who are both loving and selfish at times, much like people. And the loa represent some aspect of nature or human concerns.
Okay. I wasn’t sure about the channel at first. I’m a little jaded when it comes to following folks these days. But, after my fellow Mississippian and soldier Bjorn recommended you, I’m at home, now. Thank you!
One thing i have enjoyed so very much about your videos is how fun you make our religion. Yes it is serious but doesnt need to be all fire and brimstone like others. It makes it more approachable and a bit easier to understand.
Personally, I do tend to see the Gods as omnibenevolent, but specifically within the context of Virtue Ethics. The Gods are the source of all virtues, as They form the cosmos in which virtues exist, and They also each exhibit Their virtues perfectly. This doesn't mean that the Gods are always nice, nor that Their virtues are never in conflict between each other or with us, but that whichever virtues each God has, They have them in the maximal degree.
A lot of the Aesir and Vanir have seem to have intermarried and/or procreated with Jotuns. I don't think it's a stretch to view the Jotuns as an elder pantheon of gods who were revered and worshiped at some point. Like the southern European Titans and the Celtic Formorians, both of which were devolved into adversaries of the new patheons of gods that supplanted them.
What if the Vanir and Titans are Old Europe non-Indo European Gods. While the Olympians and Aesir are Indo-European Gods. There was a time in Europe before the Indo-European invaded called Old Europe peoples
Theeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeere it is! I've been searching for this definition bit for a little while. Not to say that it's new, I just wanted to make sure I was on your level of understanding before I attempt to make too many comments about the gods you believe in. So moving forward, I should be able to understand that when you say "god" I can hear "remarkably great, unextended, powerful mind" without fear of misunderstanding you. I run into a number of immediate problems that will necessarily keep me divorced from adopting your belief, but I at minimum understand you a little better now.
Thank you so much for your content. As someone very new to Norse beliefs, and very lost, having content that explains complex concepts in understandable words is incredibly helpful. Still, I have quite a basic but central question: If the Gods are not (entirely) physical and do not reside in specific places, why are the depicted, not only in contemporary and ancient art, but in the poetic stories, has having a form, a body, a face, objects, such as weapons and clothes, and living in realms? Don't get me wrong, I understand that the God shift between many forms, and embody human concepts (law, order, justice, love etc.) and natural phenomena (lightning, snow, wind, etc.), but they also have a (human-like) form, correct? If not, why is it so common to find in altars wood carved in the (physical) image of Thor, for instance? Probably there is something I missed regarding this in the video. Thanks in advanced if someone can explain this to me.
As a polytheist I tend to identify Yahweh as an Elohim, a warring god of the canaanite pantheon and son of the god El Elyon (father of all canaanite gods), whose veneration became a very strict henotheism at a point his followers conflated him his father and later with the very concept of monad/one/first-cause itself. If we look at the archeological record of the ancient levante between the IX and V century BCE you will see exactly this process. The same process could have been developed in any other canaanite city-kingdom where patron deities were privileged in civic cult over fertility gods like Baal Haddad (god of storms, thunder and agriculture) and Asherah (goddess of fertility and mother of the Elohim).
-Natura Deorum (Cicero's mentioned book) mentions one 'sect of polytheists' that have physical gods, although it's mentioned in a satyrical way just to criticisize them: Epicureans. -Catholic Saints: they are asked for favors and people pray for their help (in different forms) - at least in Spain-so they seem to me really similar to ancestors.
This is rather interesting to see your viewpoint on this. I actively worship the Æsir mostly, but also many of the Vanir as well as some Jotunar like Skadi
I am so glad I came by this channel just by happenstance you were the only person I've ever heard speak of any kind of religion or gods or anything like that that I actually think makes sense awesome channel
Thank you so much for bringing up Gods sitting on a throne in the sky. As a christian people often also mistakenly tell me I believe in a sky daddy. I find that the vast religions of the world bring us closer to the light and though many have a path, all reach salvation as following the light would mean in technicality following Jesus validating your belief. God will only care you have faith and live a good life, he or in your case they I would imagine not care about us rendering them into human thoughts like mono or poly theist
i personally don't believe in any gods, but I've always thought that they are borderline Lovecraftian - IE; incomprehensible. the stories of muscly men hitting clouds with hammers are simply the best way to explain to them when their very nature is unable to be understood by mere people.
Hey man, new to this polytheism thing but I’m enjoying it and find it very interesting. Can you recommend more books on the subject, possibly reveal what all is sitting in that library behind you? Thanks!
I tend to favor a belief system and philosophy that de-centralizes human self-importance and acknowledges that we are part of an incredibly complexly interconnected web of life on this planet - and that reciprocity between all forms of life is essential to life itself.
Just recently found your channel and love it so far, would you be willing to do a video on the different gods halls, like bilskirnir for thor or folkvangr for Freya i think thatd be a great video
Dude I carved Futhark runes onto oak disks. I'm just starting to study Asatru/Heathanism. Seeing the gods would be great. You should do some video's on Heathen meditations.
Does this imply that the gods don't have a body in their plane of existence either? Are their battles fought so differently then ours? Are they even what we would consider a battle?
I believe they do and that they could if they choose to just be some guy walking down the road 😂 BUT that is just me it what brings me comfort and feels right to me .
Correction re 2 minutes into this: Epicureans in antiquity did hold a doctrine that the gods were physical beings (blissful immortal animals) that lived in the metakosmia.
Great video! Keep up with the great work! The only point I think differently is the association of the æsir with mankind, i mean of course they have interest in humans but i think the Vanir are just as connected to us as the æsir. Besides, the æsir also represent aspects of nature like thunder (Donar), wind (woden) and the sky (Tiw).
