The Mysterious Fate of Loras Tyrell (Winds of Winter Theory) 

Not to be the pedantic one here, Cersei never had to worry about marrying Loras. He is a Kingsguard after all. Willas was the one she almost had to marry.

Loras being conveniently unrecognisable could mean that it's an impostor while the real Loras runs off with Aurane Waters to live happily ever after as pirate kings

He's at the same place as Benjen, Tyrek, Gerrion Lannister and Gerold Dayne. Together, they'll take Westeros when the time comes.

I’m on the “Loras is alive but disfiguringly injured” side. The parallels to Jaime are too strong to be a red-herring, and this should serve the same character purpose as Jaime losing his sword-hand.

I don't necessarily think Loras's wounds are a lie. However, I definitly think he will survive and this will have a huge impact on his arc. The loss of his beauty due to the boiling oil will be the equivalent to Jaime losing his hand and GRRM keeps reminding us how Loras is just a younger version of Jaime.

The thing I find unbelievable is the description of the wounds. A crossbow bolt, another crossbow bolt, a mace to the ribs, AND boiling oil... There's a limit to how much punishment a body can take, no mater how brave and willing the person is. Broken ribs alone should've been enough to f*** him up, let alone after already being pieced by a couple of really sharp pointy sticks. I just can't see someone in that state still being at the front issuing challenges and getting oil poured on him. The wounds are also rather specific and detailed. Not "he was gravely injured and can't be moved" but itemising each specific wound. It's strikes me as someone who's not used to lying trying too hard to sound convincing.

I don't think it's outlandish that the Tyrells found nothing of value on Dragonstone. It was Stannis's seat for a long time; he would've plundered Dragonstone to finance his armies, and he was pretty impoverished going into the north. If there's anything to be uncovered on Dragonstone, it's probably a secret known only to a Targaryen.

Rolland Storm "Bastard of Nightsong" is one of those really cool minor stormland badasses. The dude helped Edric escape and was the only one to stay with Davos when he was arrested for treason. A duel between him and Loras honestly would have been really cool, even if there is not really a POV character to observe it. Speaking of artefacts, given the sort of things Euron is up to, maybe that Celtigar horn said to call krakens forth could be a lot more important than anyone realised.

I’ve never considered Loras actually being dead. I’ve always assumed the Tyrells are protecting their resources waiting for the inevitable conflict to start. I imagine history will repeat itself and the tyrells will not be largely involved in the conflict until it’s too late. Perhaps they join Faegon after he takes kings landing only for a real Targ and 3 dragons comes to remove the king of the reach once again. This would fit George’s style of storytelling well i think

I believe it was Lady Nym (Nym's Shadow) from Dire Wolf City pointed out that when Cersei calls the small council together late at night Aurane Waters is already in attendance the council chambers when she arrives. Later, Margarie shows up, clothes crumpled and hair all a mess, like she had to get dressed in a hurry. The implication is that Aurane and Margaery had been up late fooling around so Aurane may have had A LOT more contact with the Tyrells (or A Tyrell) than you think 😉 it also ends up being another case of a Valyrian man Cersei finds attractive spurning her for a brunette if true 😂

There is a theory I heard that Loras may have been injured, but his family exaggerated the wounds to hide him and keep him safe from Cersei. The Knight of Flowers is alive and well but is being kept in the shadows until it was safe for him to reappear. I'm not sure if I buy the theory, but I give it a more likely possiblity than some ASOIAF theories

My favourite example of a Schrodinger's Cat character is Davos. In three consecutive books, the fate of Davos Seaworth is ambiguous, and it would have been a valid interpretation of the text to believe he is either dead or alive. In A Clash of Kings, Davos is thrown from his ship and sinks under the Blackwater Bay and we don't hear from him again until the next book; it is very plausible that he could have died then. In A Storm of Swords, we last see Davos about to be executed by Stannis, and then when Stannis arrives at the Wall, Davos is nowhere to be seen and they mention that they had to burn a man to achieve favourable winds; it is very plausible that he could have died then. In A Feast for Crows, Davos is said to have turned up at White Harbor and is promptly said to have been killed, with his head mounted on a spike on its walls; it is plausible that he could have died then. A Dance with Dragons is the first book in which Davos appears and does not potentially get killed off at the end. The perfect set-up for Davos to be the prologue character for The Winds of Winter and getting insta-cannibalised upon setting food on Skagos.

The tale of Loris's demise at Dragonstone is written in such a way as to cast doubt in the reader's mind with regard to its authenticity. We all know that GRRM likes to repeat story sequences when he can and I suspect we may see one here. Just as Renly's 'ghost' was seen leading the charge in the Battle of the Blackwater, Cersei may come to believe she is seeing the ghost of Loris when he finally surfaces to defend his sister's life and honour.

I think that the stories about Loras are a lie to cover up the fact that he is beginning to learn how to become a horse. He will ride in a horse to Margaery’s trial to rescue her.

One great thing the show added that wasnt in the books was Aryas scenes with Tywin Lannister. Those were awesome

I like your thought that the Tyrells could offer Dragonstone to fAegon. In that council meeting where the Tyrells pleaded for help, Cersei refused to recall the Redwyne fleet, describing Dragonstone as "a dagger at her son's throat" in Stannis' hands. Why shouldn't the Tyrells seize the dagger for themselves, and leverage it to secure a marriage pact, form an alliance, etc? Given Aurane's shady conduct, and that no pro-Lannister source confirms his report about Loras' injuries, I don't believe it. I think it was just an initial step in the Tyrells scheme to give themselves leverage to double-cross Cersei. Any alliance between Aurane and Loras was temporary and born of mutual convenience.

I do like the theory that he was swapped out and had someone else put in his place, just like Loras did himself with Renly's armour at the Battle of the Blackwater, then it could have been made to seem like Loras was killed even if it was someone else. If whomever it was really was covered in boiling oil, then it's likely he's so disfigured that it'll be impossible to identify who it was. Hence any doubt about his death could be put aside, as a corpse would be present. Then again, it would certainly be an interesting story if he was the one at the battle and did get disfigured, but survived. It would be in line with Martin's theme of turning fairy tale stories on their head like he did with Quentin. The frog prince (Quentin) tried to marry the beautiful princess, but got killed by the dragon, the beautiful knight (Loras) was horribly mutilated and disfigured, etc, etc

I don't think there's much evidence that Ser Rolland Storm would make a reckless and risky decision like single combat against Loras. Stannis, one of the strictest commanders who has a good eye for competence and loyalty, made him castellan of Dragonstone for a reason. Rolland Storm, even though he betrayed Stannis's trust when he helped Davos ship off Edric Storm, has been described as strong; level-headed; loyal in that he only supported Renly because his trueborn brother and Lord of Nightsong, Bryce Caron, did so, and then supported Stannis after Renly died instead of joining the Tyrells; and he was loyal and competent in successfully commanding Stannis's rear guard at the battle of the blackwater instead of bending the knee and likely receiving lordship of Nightsong since his true born brother, Bryce Caron, was killed in the battle. Lastly, Davos has a good opinion of him and considers him one of the King's men loyal to Stannis.

Odd that they'd let Loras go in first, but maybe that's just the westerosi way? Thoros and Ned talk about the ironborn rebellion like this

Looks like a nicely done video. Hope you can do a revive magic video where we see how each person gets revived and what it costs. Cat berric the mountain drogo th white walkers snd so on. It's interesting how george keeps revival fresh

Most underrated asoiaf youtuber

*Loras is a character that becomes even more interesting when we realize he's cocky like a young Jaime Lannister. I think it would be interesting to see him alive and participating in the Winds of Winter. Tyrells are very cautious. I believe they would keep Loras hidden alongside Margaery to protect her, because we (and them) know Cersei will try to destroy Margaery soon.*

God damn it! This is good content! The last 3 or 4 videos I've watched from this guy has been exactly the shit I wonder about!

Strange I didn't think loras was a big deal on his fate. I just thought he was healing up after a siege Though a video on characters that we think are alive or dead would be interesting on how george takes it from the hound. Tyreck Lannister etc

Always love your videos mate keep up the great work

Great video as always : ) you should do a video on what you think the fate of House bolton will be, and how Roose and Ramsay will meet their end

Oh, I bet Loras is alive but severely disfigured. So that the title the Knight of Flowers will become somewhat a mockery. I believe eventually Loras will be more disfigured than the Hound. Otherwise, he should make full recovery - as for the ending of Dance with Dragons he is mentioned as one being wounded but out of danger.

Good video Quinn I hope you feel better soon

Can't wait for Loras to show up with like two scratches, a bruise, and a tiny burn and be like, "Uh, of course the Maesters didn't want to leech me. I was perfectly healthy?" "But you were struck by two different crossbow bolts!" "Yeah, but they both barely grazed me." "What about the mace?" "Glanced off my armor. Did get a small bruise." "...And the boiling oil?" "Mostly missed. Got a small splash, nothing serious."

I was looking up for that one!

I'd love to hear your thoughts on Victarion's future, as well as if you think Bran will become evil or manipulated into doing evil. Great video, as always, thanks!

It's not strange that the castellan of Dragon Stone wouldn't duel for control of the fortress. His duty would come first, and that would mean trying to hold the castle against a seige. DS is a very strong castle, and he would have a better chance holding out than risking it all on a one vs. one deul against one of the best swordsmen in Westeros.

I don't find it implausible that even a notably martial and impulsive man would refuse the offer of single combat to settle a siege; it's an incredibly stupid offer to accept. While some people *might* be baited into it to satisfy their honour or ego, we can't take being smart enough to rise above that bait as evidence of anything.

I don't think there's anything of value to the southern lords on dragonstone. The only thing of value there is the dragonglass that the watch needs. So when the tyrells say there's nothing of value there it's meant to be a way for the reader to be like "yes there is! They need the dragonglass for the others!" And kind of highlighting how the southern lords are fighting the wrong wars

YYYYuuuuussss...I think he's alive and well. Wonder what Quinn thinks...

“The castle is held by the forces of the one true king” Ah. A fellow StannisMan. I salute you, comrade.

Loras is too beautiful to be hurt 😢

Just a crackpot theory Jamie compares himself to Loras Cersei is described as being like Aerys 2nd and Loras is the younger brother and a member of the kings guard idk maybe Loras will be the one to put down Cersei he is the youngest brother. Probably not true but it’s fun to speculate on TWOW.

i saw someone on reddit a while ago that thought Loras had been injured, but not as severely as was put on and was being experimented on by someone like Qyburn or something like that. thought it was a pretty cool idea but i don’t think George would ignore the parallels between Jaime loosing his hand and Loras getting burned as stated in the video :)

No offence but I think you’re a bit off about Roland Storm rejecting Loras’s duel being false, as he was probably mimicking Stannis when he was offered a duel by Cortnay Penrose(which he also rejects).

I can see the Tyrells faking (or at least exaggerating) Loras' injuries and the casualties they took in capturing Dragonstone. It gives them a great excuse for not sending him or their troops to aid Cersei. Rolland Storm might have wanted to duel Loras, but his duty is to hold the castle. Risking his own life (and however much he might look down on Loras for being gay, must know he's an effective fighter) shouldn't prevail over fulfilling his duties to his liege Lord.

Theres a huge mountain on dragonstone called dragonmont. Im sure there are still some drsgon eggs in little crevices and caves.

Simple: Loras is Sir Robert Strong

The biggest flaw in GRR Martin's writing style, aside from the fact that he never writes, is that he uses death fake outs waaay too much. He has faked out so many deaths in the book it is actually comical. It's way overused by him. I'd say it needs to stop, but given he hasn't written anything in 13 fucking years, I suppose it already has. I feel like he is in a competition with Patrick Rothfuss over who can hold out the longest before releasing a new book. Both of them had the previous books in their respective series released all the way back in 2011 and have been promising a sequel ever since and completely failing to deliver the entire time.

Great video

@2:14 Not that (as far as Cersei knows,) there's anything of importance or value on Dragonstone (there's LOTS of dragonglass there, which is extremely important for fighting the Others, but Cersei 1. doesn't know that and 2. wouldn't care if she did know.) Wanting to recapture Dragonstone is something Cersei wants mostly to remove an annoyance (part of the Redwyne fleet is already blockading Storm's End while it's under siege by an army, so clearly the whole fleet isn't even necessary to invest Dragonstone. She just really wants to remove Stannis' last 2 holdings south of The Neck for the symbolic value of the Iron Throne controlling everything south of it. The reason it's purely symbolic is neither Dragonstone nor Storm's End have nearly enough soldiers to be any threat to the armies of the Reach, who are on Cersei's side (though she is pathologically unable to realize this.) Stannis took the vast majority of his troops with him to The Wall.) Overall the whole reason she refuses to budge the Redwyne fleet is all about her hatred of anything Tyrell-related: 1. she doesn't want to do anything to help The Reach and 2. it's Margaery and Loras asking her

Nah I don't think injuries are a lie, but it's pretty obvious that he'll survive from a narrative perspective

Cercei didn't almost marry Loras in the books, that was in the show. Loras is a knight of the Kingsguard, he can't marry, which is fine with him since he's gay. But in the books, Cercei is almost married to Willas, the eldest of the Tyrell children

There are no artifacts on Dragonstone because Stannis obviously scrapped the island clean of any valuables in order to fund his war effort. Especially dragon eggs which are "more valuable than gems"

Great vids

Quniton warged into one of Dannys dragons. He became a dragon rider like he wanted.

I for one am happy Victarion was not killed in A Feast. His chapters are some of my favorites.

6:06 it sounds like they say "Mance," unless Mace has some archaic pronuncuation i'm unaware of

if winds and dream are never released (the former i’m cautiously optimistic about, the latter is a pipe dream), there’s going to be so much fan fiction….

Alleras ~ A Loras. I won't elaborate, look into it.

I think the rumors of his death have been greatly exaggerated, particularly the boiling oil. I think perhaps Waters just told Cersei what she wanted to hear in order to please her and really nothing more. Tbh, he probably wanted to get in those skirts like pretty much every other one of Cersei’s “trusted male advisors.”

I think Loras’ injuries did happen, but were exaggerated. He’s seriously hurt, probably for life, but he’s not like, super ultra dead

Loras is absolutely in perfect health and out of all of the familes in Westeros, the Tyrell's are the most likely to remain; they were never meant to be key players, theyre simply present to be the immediate power for whomever they choose to follow. Their loyalty to the Targaryens will probably be a key factor moving forward, but thats kind of the extent of their involvement. As Margaery states "...we returned to Highgarden to manage the affairs of the Reach as we had for thousands of years... and will for a thousand more. Other great houses take lions and wolves for their sigils and draw their power from the gold in their mountains or the cold of their winters. But mountains run dry, winters yields to spring AND THE ROSE BLOOMS ONCE MORE"

Can you pleeeeaaase do a video on Margaery and what role you think she will play and what will happen for her “trial” 🥺 i think the show doesn’t do her justice

Everyone who was there to see it are either Tyrell and Redwyne men who are sailing to the Reach or Aurane Waters' crews on the Crown's ships. Aurane was likely playing Cercei from the beginning and greatly exaggerating the events to Cercei would create enough chaos in the aftermath for him to set off. From how George talks about Loras, I doubt that Aurane's account of the events is accurate. Important characters dying off screen has always been something the readers are taught to doubt. Information being slightly off is a core part of the story and side novels.

Cool video man. I think Young Griff is Raeghar and Lyanna's son. The blue is a nod to Lyanna, the Blue Rose. Jon is Ned and Ashara's son, they were wed in secret, before he was forced to marry Caitlyn to help the war effort. Ashara is alive in the form of Septa Lemore.

He ain’t dead I believe. He made up that rumor so he could go fight off the iron born in his lands the reach

Sorry, but I think there will be something found on Dragonstone everyone seems to be overlooking but very valuable - *dragonglass.* The point here is that all the combatants for the throne are all focused on political power while the menace of the Others grows, and what is truly valuable is scorned by the powerful who should use it for the common good.

I don't think Aurane Waters lied to Cercei, i think he was lied too. You know he wasn't in the battle, probably didn't even leave his ship, so the Tyrell bannermen just "reported what happened" to Aurane, and he told the Queen

imagine if Ned had sent Loras after the mountain like the kid wanted…. he would’ve been cut in half as soon as they came face to face.

No one gonna beat Garlan in a fight!

Cersei was only supposed to marry Loras in the show. In the books he was already in the Kingsguard and the marriage offer was to Willas.

0:26 not trying to be obnoxious but does anyone know why FaB2 is shown in the graphic, while the first is not? Are the two books "stacked" in this graphic or are they so closely tied that they're considered one book?

"He ain't even hurt."

He may be alive, but when he comes back he will be disfigured and learn a lesson about vanity (no won't learn that lesson). Or maybe Qyburn will geta hold of him and be brought back as undead thing like the Mountain.

Just putting this out there martin has a history of burning people and switching then out

Roland Storm might have denied to duel with Loras because he knew that his win will bring nothing, except for some extra time maybe. There is no way Cersei would cease her attempts to retake Dragonstone.

Marjory was going to be judged by the Faith? ....of the Seven...?

Got you with the like and comment 👍

anyone else find it ironic that Cersei shows contempt towards Loras for his 'unnatural' romantic inclinations when she hersefl has 3 children by her brother?

I was just pondering this question after reading AFFC once again. I basically read each series book every year or two to pick up on something I may have missed. IMHO this "grievous" injury is a ruse. Could Aurane Waters be in contact with Faegon and Jon Connington? He served Stannis and I just don't buy this account.

Is the siege of dragon stone in the show?? I don’t remember and wouldn’t understand why they didn’t put it in the show.

Loras is Azor Ahai

Every plot is a shrodinger plot line since twow will never be released

Tbh even when reading it for the first time I never really took the claims that Loras got horribly injured and was dying seriously and still don’t. Unless Winds comes out and proves me wrong I’m sticking to that he’s perfectly fine, but the Tyrells are simply consolidating their strength, including Loras, back home to help with the Ironborn. And I 100% don’t blame them as the crown intentionally does not want to help them and is refusing to believe it’s anything more than the typical raids despite everything saying otherwise. I think it’s very likely we at least hear about him being in the reach next book, as it wouldn’t be long before people start to recognize the most famous young knight in Westeros who also happens to be a kingsguard

GRRM: "Damn it, I'm just not quite sure what to do with this flower. Do I prune him, do I keep him around? Better leave him off the published page for now, then write three versions to see what fits: one where he lives, one where he dies, one where it was all a lie."

Loras, if alive, does not have to be beautiful to defend his sister - BTW did he not say once that although he is the better lance his brother is the better sword? Of course Garland is not on the Kingsguard. I am starting to like the idea of a disfigured Loras not as new Jamie, but a new Sandor/Hound totally cynical and only out for revenge - OR a new Brienne, as heartbroken as she is over Renly and wanting only to do honest service in a knightly cause.

Q is definitely alive

Margaery chose trial by combat? I thought i recalled Mace mentioning she was obviously innocent since she did NOT choose trial by combat, implying she was confident the charges would be disproven.

I love Queen Margaery so much 🙉

Stannis may have a dragon egg or two , either with him or on Dragonstone why else would a Bravosi banker lend Stannis money especially when his position in the North seems so dire. That part has always bothered me.

Oh i haven't finished A Storm of Swords yet and i feel like this video has spoilers, i shall return later

Anybody half dead are subject to get their fingerbones stolen. Like who has Ned's bones?

Im not saying Quentyn is alive, Im saying he might be

different mic?

Cersei went full Eric Cartman on Margery

That's not what a Schrodinger's Cat is. A Schrodinger's Cat is when there's no way to find out whether the cat is alive or dead without looking to find out and until you look, the cat is assumed to be being both alive AND dead at the same time.

GRRM is a Master of leaving a Characters fate to be unknown Until then.

Is it possible that Loras = Volonqar? He is the little brother of the tyrell clan. A mirror of Jamie if Loras becomes a Queenslayer 🤔

He's a Schrodinger rose.

I'm not dead!

I feel like Dragonstone really is just empty- Stannis has surely sold everything of value to fund his war

Why would anyone agree to a 1v1 if they are besieged? Even if they win, there is no guarantee the sieging force will just leave. Even in the world OIAF that doesn't make sense.

I never read the books but do you think it's leading to Cersei using wildfire to blow up everyone like in the show?

“Devoted to the warrior” doesn’t mean that Rolland wouldn’t have turned down a duel. A siege and battle is equally as devoted to the warrior as a duel is