The Mystery and Murder of Ser Hugh of the Vale: ASOIAF Theory Analysis 

A legitimized bastard of a cousin would actually check like all the boxes here, that's a great thought! It would allow him to wear Arryn garb, not been seen as a threat by Jon to Sweetrobin or even Harry probably, but also allow him to actually be a possible heir assuming the others were whisked away making him someone Littlefinger would need to do way with or get control of...

@@randominternetguyoffical Yeah, not Jon Arryn's bastard, as there is a hint he couldn't have children. And Lysa might have been paranoid about him just like Cat was paranoid about Jon Snow.

@@randominternetguyoffical also, a knighthood is what Ned considers for Gendry. Also also, before sweetrobin was born Jon Arryn must have considered the matter of his succession. He was old and childless. So, legitimizing the bastard of a cousin would be a good solution in order not to let house Arryn end. And once SR was born, he became less relevant.

@@vpapako Cat wasn’t paranoid about Jon Snow. She was a small petty vile jealous cunt with misdirected anger at Jon Snow for Eddard Starks “infidelity” and intentionally chose to make Jon feel unwanted. She completely deserved the gift the Stranger gave to her at the Red Wedding.

Nor that Jon Arryn was sterile. He could have children, just not healthy ones. @@vpapako

Thank you, very glad you enjoyed the video and the dive into Ser Hugh, I agree people don't usually talk about him enough!

I had no idea that was the case! Great little easter egg kinda thing

So id probably rule that out on the fact that we know Lysa and LF were bangin already (revealed end of ASOS) and that she like exclusively trusts him over what appears to be everyone else. (like she's quite paranoid) and on that fact that LF seemed quite certain that only the two of them knew about the details of the poisoning. Like only GRRM could say for sure, but to me at least its not really an option and its far more likely that Lysa would have been either hateful of mistrusting of this arrogant youth that may pose a threat to her sons legitimacy and who is a knight something she seems to fear sweetrobin will become(?) (shes at least afraid of him playing rough with other boys and I can even see fear that Hugh could influence her son driving her away from him outright)

@@randominternetguyoffical Yeah that makes sense to me, thanks for clearing it up

@@ron_ald69 Always down to ramble off my thoughts on bizzare nerd stuff lol Glad you're enjoying talking about it too!

Im stoked to hear that, I was worried the video wasn't gonna be much liked cuz Hugh is so random XD

@@randominternetguyoffical Happy to see the video got so positively received and rightfully so I feel the lesser known chars are somewhat even more Interesting because most don't know much, Also always cool to see how they tie in with the big players

Thats actually a pretty interesting thought, could serve both ends too.. removes ser hughs voice from the equation and drives ned against the Lannisters. Honestly its a pretty decent play by LF

Saw that! Thought he did a great job too!

Thank you! That means a lot to me, I'm happy that the ramblings are being listened to and appreciated.

Thank you! Im really glad youre liking the videos! Ive been on a lil break recently, just too much goin on but eventually Ill be workin on putting out somemore =)

This is gonna be a major topic in Littlefinger 5 so I had to dance around it a bit, but I promise it will be gone over in more detail!

Thank you! 😁

A very good point and something I should have brought up now that you mention it!

@@randominternetguyoffical I've never seen anyone break this down. Nice catch because in hindsight ser hughs death is a huge ? After lysas confession

@@willbeard4835 I had a few nice convos about it with Hills Alive and again with some folks on the Glidus discord and after a bit I was like, this ties into Littlefinger well and its a great topic. And yeah I think its certainly more interesting and probably more important than most think of on first read 🤔

@@randominternetguyoffical I'm definitely going to go back and read the first book again to see what the text says about hugh. George is great at leaving clues. Thinking about it more the show also portrayed the mystery around hugh well too. Thanks again man this is why I love asoiaf

@@willbeard4835 Lemme know what you discover, might make fun topics for future talks. Always glad to dive into the theory madness!

His finger prints certainly appear to be all over this one

Thanks Goose! Always glad to see you and good to know the video was interesting. I was a little unsure if folks would find it worth watching

@@randominternetguyoffical definitely worth the watch, I hadn’t considered any other motives for littlefinger killing Ser Hugh, but that makes complete sense!

* cue drum noises * XD XD XD

I think that that is a likely choice and would make a lot of sense given that John Arryn took good care of him

So I'm gonna go into the LF x Varys relationship in a later video, but fundamentally I think it comes down to 2 lines.. "Littlefinger.. the gods only know what game Littlefinger is playing" (or something close to that said by Varys and "When you knw what a man wants you know how to move him.." Said by Littlefinger So I think that what were seeing in these two lines is that Varys doesn't know what motivates Littlefinger and why that makes Littlefinger a mystery to Varys. So under this.. I wont call it logic, but under this assumption, we can surmise that yes Littlefinger probably has the power to mislead Varys and that he is probably one of the only figures in the game that really can actually do this as Varys does go to Ned. Another way of looking at it is, Varys told Ned Ser Hugh was involved.. We the reader learn he wasn't,... So someone tricked Varys or Varys wanted to trick Ned. And since Varys doesn't have a motive to trick Ned into thinking the Lannisters are bad at the moment and because he doesn't really seem attached to Ser Hugh in any other way.. I think we gotta eliminate that option. Which kinda leaves us that yeah LF dooped him or at least mislead him in some way to help make the Arryn murder go down easier and without him as a direct suspect.. I mean cold all be author error too XD

@@randominternetguyoffical you think Varys the spy master didn’t know Little Finger was beaten half to death by a Stark, humiliated, rejected, and fooled into deflowering a girl he didn’t want that was such a big deal a proposed marriage between Jamie Lannister and Lysa Tully was taken off the table? You think Varys didn’t know Little Finger was resentfully in love with Cat and was using Lysa for influence? Varys absolutely knew. He was feigning ignorance to give Ned enough of a lead to investigate on his own without seeming to want to get involved. “God only knows what so and so is up to” = Everyone knows so and so is up to something bad and the readers know it.

@Phillip Margrave knowing some is devious is different than knowing what motives their deviousness.. You say he knows.. and he may. But he says to Illyrio (who like I don't know why he'd lie to or fail to inform more) that "the gods only know what Littlefinger is up to".. Additionally, maybe he knows what happened but doesn't know the full story or details, maybe he only knows a certain version of the tale? I feel theres plenty of room for him to be deceiving here

I certainly agree that that is part of the equation and probably the baseline part of the equation but I do think that the Crescent moons mean something.. they get brought up way too often and house errands symbol is the Crescent moon and Falcon so there is something going on there imo 🤔

That's a great parallel there actually that I didn't think of. If Jon Arryn is the kind of man too keep a brothers or cousins bastard near by and give him a chance at honor and a place in the household that would really speak to Ned either to affirm his choices with Jon Snow or to even inform them(?) We don't know how long Hugh has been attached to the Arryn household but still a fun thought.

That assumes Jon really is Ned's bastard, though...

@@tarvoc746 I think it works as long as Jon is "a" bastard. Like its more likely Hugh is Jon Arryn's cousin's or brothers bastard, like how Jon Snow is likely not Neds bastard. Obviously speculation, but the parallel does at lest exist, if were supposed to draw something from it or even if its intentional thats debatable, but its fun to think on.

@@randominternetguyoffical I guess.

You probably misspelled there lol

Unless the people of the Vale are fans of a certain 20th century austrian painter

> "...secret Aryan" AUF DER HEIDE BLUHT EIN KLEINES BLUMELEIN, UND DAS HEISST...ERIKA! XDD

@@sergeant_chris6209 Or Persians.

@@sergeant_chris6209 I didn't see that till just now either lol I'm assuming he means Arryn XD

Further proof that Littlefinger is using the time machine from unsound variations to own bran in the time lord wars via manipulation of the lanisters! No doubt there will be a follow up video on this updated madness!! 😂

i did not know your channel, i really enjoy this clip. i am a huge martin fan from germany and i have a big webpage for my PnP GoT group, so i am often looking for new nice ideas for my compaings

@@MichaelFMeyer-lz5fv Glad you liked the video! I got a few others on Ice and Fire and Martins work, I'd say the Littlefinger videos are probably the most interesting lol Do you run your games online or in person? Im a pretty big dnd fan so I'm really curious about GOT dnd

@@randominternetguyoffical we are playing the year 288 AC, so Littlefinger is just working in Gulltown, but we met him once

Could just be an easter egg or a dropped thread 🤔

0_0 It all makes sense now! SER ROBERT HUGH OF THE VALE!!

That... is a legit interesting question. I have several thoughts one being that there might be a trial a'la the show but with some significant differences, one being a present Jayne Poole... He could end up in a Stone Heart trial 0_0 Or murdered in a back room with a dagger by Sansa(?) All of which leave open the possibility of a long listing of events in either an attempt to confess and get mercy or as a legit gush of guilt... As for accusations, I doubt anyone could make one or pin it on him at this point other than like a Time Traveling Bran(?) If I had to guess wildly I think there's a chance of confessions, especially if Bran is somehow at a Stark run Littlefinger trial..? And like in general I think some confession is afoot for Littleifinger before he meets huis death. All that said Martin loves an unspelled out mystery lol

This is a spicy take... and I'm here for it

The idea of him suspecting the two did the murder is quite interesting, why would he not go direct to Ned tho? Do you think he maybe thought he couldn't trust him know really knowing who Ned was as a person?

@@randominternetguyoffical yes,he didn't know ned and therefore didn't trust him or perhaps he didn't trust pretty much anyone after realising that his lady murdered his lord. It wouldn't be surprising. I think we should also consider the idea that he was an overly confident young knight and perhaps thought he could deal with it by himself. Or he didn't want to talk to ned because he was "paid"for his silence( the knighthood).It could be a combination of all or some of these reasons ,as well!🙃 Apologies for the late response. I really enjoy your LF videos. They're so studious and fun. I can't wait for the next one ♥️

Idk if that's true tho. Like consider that, we don't hear about him having killed anyone previously at tournaments... He only tries to kill Loras because Loras tries to trick him with the horse in heat, basically hes trying to rig the match and thats watch prompts Gregor to attack and only once he was knocked from the saddle... He only tries to kill the Hound because the Hound intervenes he doesn't just randomly try to kill the Hound like out of nowhere...

We always tend to see him getting really angry before he kills somebody... like loras does some blatant cheating and embarrasses him in front of hundreds. Ser Hugh is just there.. Idk seems like theres more a foot what with how it affects Ned and how Varys and the Hound both comment on it.

Its the circumstances that matter to me, like those attacks make sense and fit the character, the Hugh thing... idk if we can say it fits, personally Id argue no

Unless legitimized(?) which some people in he comments brought up. So I'm kinda leaning towards a cousins or uncles bastard or such that was legitimized. Would explain the colors and the arrogant personality of Ser Hugh

He could easily be a bastard of another Arryn tho. And since there are no rules as to colors many bastards in the series choose their own house colors to imply legitimately or attachment to their house. Additional since Lysa miscarries several children we suspect that Jon is not infertilite but rather that he has some else wrong, (or if you want to get Tin that Lysa has been moonteaing the babies.) While it is speculative and while it could easily be grrm doin his thing. Neither the presence of colors nor Jons history with his wives are a good indicator that Ser Hugh is not an Arryn. He appears to be of that house in one way or another.

Im gonna touch on the LF x Gregor relationship in an upcoming and somewhat attached video. Wanted to leave room for that discussion though cuz I believe the killing of Ser Hugh was only part 1 of their interaction.

@@randominternetguyoffical alright, I look forward to seeing what that entails

@@SupposeIRose Did you watch the Preston Jacobs series Riverlands of the Dragon? The video I'm doing is going to expand on that but I'm making an entirely different claim, imma build on some ideas then offer up an alternative.

@@randominternetguyoffical I did but that was years ago so I don't really remember.

I actually heard that mentioned and I am excited to see him in the episode!

Its certainly hard to prove but I think there's a solid chance he's a obscure dead cousin's son or a brothers bastard.. You don't really see rando squires dressed in house garb once they become knights unless they belong to that house. Its certainly worth considering seeing how LF needs to hold down heirships to the Vale.

@@randominternetguyoffical but even do Harry would still be the heir. Even if Hugh came up to the vale and said that he was the bastard or a distant cousin, nobody would have proved been able o prove it. I mean the cousin situation is more plausible but he would have been mentioned by someone in the vale. Like there would be some throwaway line when littlefinger or someone else explains the line of succession to Sansa that ser Hugh died in the hands’s tourney 2 years ago so now it goes to Harry the heir. SOMETHING would have been said

This is certainly an interesting theory and I personally like the idea that sweet robin is actually a little fingers kid

@@randominternetguyoffical it also helps explain why Lysa took Robin and booked it back to the Vale before Ned showed up. Robert was obviously oblivious, but they had to suspect that Ned would see it right away.

And feel free to run with this...I don't have much research/creator time to make anything of it on my own. 😎

No doubt, but hes also maintained a place in noble society and not rampage murdered anyone we know of at a social event to date prior.. Like I would say just cuz someone is crazy, even a psychopath doesn't mean they kill literally anyone for no reason. Like Larus was the unplanned attack that day not Hugh. Hugh was a planned murder.

@@randominternetguyoffical yeah okay entirely true, I’m just saying he’s unhinged and has no problem doing arbitrarily inhumane things to even close relatives at random. Why wouldn’t he be the kind of person to just totally kill someone for the sake of it? Maybe he likes that sort of thing.

@patrickhenry1249 i think thats a great reason why he'd have no qualms doin someones dirty work for money.. Like even an act as sensless and violent as what he did to the hound wasn't unmotivated, the motive is just really dark and evil and personal. Grrm doesn't seem to like the "just cuz" as a motive cuz no one irl does things jusy cuz, theres always human depth even in acts of depravity. Idk thats my take at least

I think it was a real murder mostly because, it does seem to be planned by Littlefinger and I can't really see why youd put the mt up again someone if you didn't mean to have them killed. Especially with what the hound says about it.

That is part of what stands out to me like. If he was just a normal bastard why would you bother doing that? It's all rather interesting. I don't know if george intended any of it though but it is interesting.

Bastard born, not base born. Dunc explains the difference to Egg when talking about some Blackfyre related things. I think it's supposed to implying that he is a bastard and both of his parents were highborn. The Great Bastards were Great because they were highborn on both sides, ALL of Aegon's bastards were legitimized. Only the GB's are seriously considered for a rebellion to take the Iron Throne once Aegon legits all his bastards. LF got rid of him for Vale reasons, pretty sure. And he is about to do the SAME thing to Harry...too bad Sansa is going to notice that loose gorget THIS time and fix it, saving his life and likely putting hers {and LF's} in danger. Whoever Hugh's mother is-she is of highborn blood, almost for sure.

Var-eyes?

Well it is very interesting that Peter was trying to hire faceless men or at least knew that they were expensive. How do you explain Ser Hugh using Arryn colors and sigils? 🤔 John Arryn is supposed to be Is overly proud and prickly when it comes to his honor, how did Hugh get all his trappings and cloaks?

@@randominternetguyoffical Squires wear their master's colors and sigils. And after Jon's death, Lysa flees. Who's to tell him what to do? The king himself knighted him.

@@aaronginsberg4993 I don't know that we see any other Squires wearing their master's colors? I thought we saw them wearing their own house colors like for example Podrick Payne where's the colors of house Payne right? Or like Robbs squire wears frey then later when his squire changes, hes dressed in whatever gear the westerlings have (sea shells I think 🤔) Maybe I'm wrong but I thought it was pretty standard to wear your house garb.

@@randominternetguyoffical When Arya arrives at the Twins she and Sandor are stopped by a knight of house Haigh and his squires. The squires have House Haigh sigils on their jerkins. Other than that, we really don't have much explicitly in the text. Cat's chapter says she doesn't recognize Robb's new squire and that the knight behind him is wearing seashells. She ties the two together because they look alike but the squire isn't said to be wearing seashells. Other than that, GRRM seems to be pretty shy about describing what squires are wearing.

@@aaronginsberg4993 question becomes, are the House Haigh squires from house Haigh? Again I believe Pod wears house Payne gear, coins and such? But I'd need to look that up. 🤔 Interesting question tho and one I probably could slip an addendum in to the description on once I do some digging

So we never hear about Gregor killing anyone at a tournament weirdly tho. (And like its something that would have been added if we were supposed to think back on the killing as readers and go "Ohhhh, he kills people at tourneys for fun) We hear a lot of other stuff but nothing like that. And while tournaments are quite brutal the ramifications of killing somebody when you're not in a position to like pay off their family or really deal with it in the way a much larger house would.. it kind of makes sense that he wouldn't be killing people unless they were poor small folk who had no recourse against him. (Which we hear about extensively even prior to Aryas time with Gregor in the Riverlands) Things to consider at least from a literally standpoint.