TOO MUCH JUNK!! (Seven Deadly TCG Sins #6) 

"are they supposed to pack up their entire entertainment center" The fighting game community would like to know your location.

"Cries in never seeing a Yugioh duel terminal"

I love this series! Do more plz and ty

"Once Magic Online came out, Eye of Judgment was doomed" Magic Online came out a full six years *before* Eye of Judgment, in 2001. Eye of Judgment was doomed not from the start, but well before the start.

There's one issue with "Skill Challenge" games that (sadly) wasn't addressed here and is a big reason games like Magic have avoided such things since the days of Chaos Orb. Players with disabilities. Skill challenge games exclude people with disabilities by their very nature.

"It also can't be a thing where we like step aside to play something else" *Plays marbles with bakugan* "We don't want something that keeps the opponent waiting" *Struggles to close krakelios ultra for 20min*

The most successful "board game tcgs" that exist, exist in a video game format primarily. I remember that the Dungeon Dice Monsters GBA game got a good bit of traction and is still considered one of the best Yugioh games released. As is Yugioh: Duelists of the Roses which is about moving cards around a board. I thing the big thing is that, like you said, they gained traction because they were a one and done thing and self-contained, being a video game and all.

dungeon dice monsters was a MASTERPIECE and it is a down right TRAGEDY that it flopped so hard. i miss that game

Heh, well jokes on you! My card shop has a dual terminal! The machine doesn’t work but, well that’s not the point!

Man that Redekai "duel disk/unfolding box" actually looks cool. Imagine if they released that instead of those 3 useless pieces of plastic

“$669” That’s ridiculous, what the f- “Co-developed... Wizards of the Coast” Oh, carry on then.

My friends and I honestly love dungeon dice monsters. We even made homemade figures and printed copies of all the cards from online images. It is definitely different from the tcg but it is a blast to play

Funny story as a kid me and my dad played ygo together. I saw the dungeon dice episodes then saw them in the store. My father ever wise said “son I promise no one will have one and they’ll stop making them.” He bought me more ygo cards instead. Boy was he right.

What’s ironic about Bakugan is... They suck at distributing cards for a trading *card* game. It’s usually the game pieces, but you can easily waltz on over to AP the nearest Walmart or Target and buy enough for a basic game, but not the actual trading card game. Now you CAN order them online. Just pay 100 bucks for a single pack. Yeah.

One thing to note is that Eye of Judgement got a fully digital version, a PSP with the same game and mechanics, so if you wanted to play the game, you could just pick that up cheaper and not have to worry about the card cost.

There is one effective, albeit HORRENDOUSLY tedious solution to the redekai problem. Sleeves. Just sleeve the entire deck, and play as normal, but unsleeve them as you place them on the field. Then resleeve them when the game is over.

"And i dont even wanna start on the doom board game." Dark souls board game looms in background menacingly

I've got about 50 keyforge decks and have never played with the little tokens- 2 colors of mini dice and you're set!

The more and more this series progresses the more and more I'm surprised Yu-Gi-Oh is still a thing...

When I was a 7th grader I made a board/card game out of Animorphs where players would race to the final zone to beat the aliens first. You would choose a character to represent on the board and move with a dice roll on a track of panels across different environments picking up animals from a shuffled Morph Deck to use to fight enemies on panels you land on and to move through the particular environment zone from forest to mountains to ocean. If you rolled a dice and landed on a panel with an enemy you would have to defeat the enemy before rolling to move again. The biggest morphs would do the most damage but some morphs don't work in certain zones. And some morphs carry other advantageous abilities.

Man, Mahou Shoujo Relentlessly Poor Elulu season 2 was bonkers

To be fair, dungeon dice monsters was a board game more than a card game

Having your cards move around on the board is a board game Yajiro invader: 😥

I kinda expected you to mention Yugioh's "Master Rule 4" at some point since the game made placement important since the introduction of Link Monsters. Though Yugioh has an alternative to requiring the playmat to have the layout of it all: Instead you just put a "Field Center" and from there it should be sorta easy to tell where each card is supposed to be at (and that's kinda intriguing considering you have 5 rows and 5 columns in this board not counting the Field Spell Zone).

Yugioh does have quite a bit of the board game element. The addition of cards like Mekk-Knights, link monsters, and Infinite Impermanence made the exact positioning of cards on the field very important.

The strangest thing about Eye of Judgment to me is that Magic Online was around for *years* before this game came out, even made by the same company. It could've easily just been an all digital game and could've been really cool, they had the experience with digital card games to make it happen. At the same time though, if was the era of the Wii, everyone wanted to have gimmicks, and Sony needed to sell the Eye Toy somehow. Though, I will say, now in 2020 I've been seeing a lot of people playing Commander and other Magic formats over Webcams, I wonder if a game that better makes use of the physical-digital interaction would be more viable today on PC, or if there's just no real reason to with so many great digital TCGs.

When he said "Dungeon Dice Monsters"... I felt that.

I love this series, I'm glad we got another upload 💗

I love the video! But i wanted to throw this out there: when my brother and I started playing keyforge, we used pocket change for the pieces. Quarters were keys, pennies were amber, and the extra change would act as buffs/whatever else we needed. Hell Ive used paperclips for amber, Ive used my actual house keys as the keys in KeyForge. I agree they shouldn’t advertise you only need the deck, but as someone who has spent hours and hours playing KeyForge, I found it almost charming to play with household items rather than the official pieces :)

"For Yu-gi-oh... you're gonna need a calculator." Or as I like to call it: the Evilswarm-B-Gone

"you can't just play with the cards" And like that years upon years of using differently colored dice, slips of paper with effects written on, and different coinage were erased from my life.

In my experience a lot of skill challenge games run into the issue of them being messy physical things. Like with skill claw and bakugan, at what point do you release the thing? Are you going to call a judge to see if someone went over the line like a football foul?

Regarding a card game where you move your cards around on a field: I think the fact that the Fire Emblem card game, based on a Turn Based Strategy Game, didn't do this is pretty telling that it can't work. Instead, it simplifies it to just a back row and front row that your cards can move between.

I honestly would love to get into Dungeon Dice Monsters if they attempt to tweak design and make it better. We never got any of the product in my side of my country so I guess it's not a marketable product either. I just like the idea of dice becoming a board.

I know of a card game where you have to move your cards around the board. It's an Argentine game called Enadrya and the principle of it is that you have a board of 3 rows and 7 columns where you can place your cards and move them vertically or horizontally towards an Offensive and Defensive zone. How many spaces you can move depends on a speed stat from 1 to 3 that every card has, which also determines in what part of the board you can place it (some cards can start at the front outright while others start from the back and have to move forward). I really haven't played it but I remember buying a starter deck when it was just starting back in 2011 cause the concept interested me.

The worst part of Eye of judgement, at least in my experience, was that additional expansions were locked behind not just a physical card purchase, but an additional DLC purchase, which means that you could end up with a whole deck of cards that wouldn't work with the game unless you were willing to pay even more

I will die on this hill: Anachronism was a fantastic game about moving cards as if they were board pieces.

Me just discovering this series today and binge watching, only to be met with the episode before the finale: HOW DOES IT END!? *Waits silently for next episode*

To be fair with Keyforge we used dice to track aember, damage, and the various buffs. We also positioned cards differently for the various status effects. Now I know it’s not official to use dice but FFG does allow you to use different custom things to track that stuff. So when I play Keyforge with people at work we usually just bring our decks and the dice that usually come with Pokémon elite boxes. So in retrospect you only need to do the one deck buy in and have a few dice lying around. That’s how we play it and get newcomers into it cause they only have like a 12 dollar buy in. Now I do have starter sets and agree it’s a little bit easier but I hate bringing components into work so I mostly play with just dice. Also with the newer sets with new mechanics we had to improvise a bit but we make it work with just a deck and dice. I do agree though the wording should be phrased differently but it is totally possible to enjoy Keyforge with the one deck. That’s how I sell em to newcomers that see us playing and wanna try it. But anyway love this series and another great video! Look forward to the next.

it seems like having dexterity mechanics that involve physical objects could fall into the same trappings of accessibility as Smash Melee with controllers. If you only have access to certain controllers, you could unknowingly be limiting the possibility to perform certain techniques based on your equipment alone. It doesn't seem bad in bakugan, it's just a marble that opens, but in that claw game you can't really play if your claw doesn't work right

The PSP version of Eye of Judgement was cool. It didn't require physical cards.

That skill challenge segment made me question again after many years....WHY ISN'T THE TV GAME SHOW ARCHETYPE IN YUGIOH A REAL ONE?!?! i want to make my opponent bite an apple while underwater and singing la cucaracha or suffer 2000 points of burn damage

19:20 Jett Kuso making them Stan Lee cameos I see. I'm also jealous you have the impossible to find fabled Dark Magician Girl DDM!

Usually when we play commander within our squad we use mobile app for tracking our life points and other counters (like storm or poison). It's incredibly handy, as we need less dice, and absolutely free.

its funny because in yu-gi-oh card positioning didn't really matter for years and years until link summoning with the extra monster zones and the link monsters arrow pointing mechanic and archetypes like mekk knights were introduced. Now all you really need is STILL just a playmat or at least two little rectangles that can point out where the extra zones are in relation to the rest. But i still feel like it bloated the board design of the game, even if not by much

Thing to give yugioh credit, the effects can be done with coins, something else that is readily available

On the Dungeon Dice Monsters bit, I remember thinking it was a pretty cool concept but it had more limitations IRL. -The die had to fold/unfold and were easy to break, and unlike the anime/manga you couldn't unfold them in different ways, they were all the same one shape you had to just use. -The packs were single-die/single-card ones which ended up a bit more pricey than regular Yugioh packs. -The artwork was horrendous with backgroundless CGI generated monsters (it'd be a lot better and potentially cheaper for them if they used the TCG artworks or even manga/anime screenshots). -They weren't really distributing it or promoting it the way they did for the TCG. . . . . if they did just cardboard punch out roads of different shapes unfolded die could theoretically make and made the die instead be solid (with a print of the card they belong to replacing 1 face to help identification and find a way to assign said face of the die to an in-game function like the crests do it'd could probably work out). Still, my point is, I don't think Dungeon Dice Monsters flopped for that specific reason of being boardgame-like. We also gotta remember that Yugioh got lifted by the anime/manga craze it generated back in the day with most kids not optimizing any of the potential strategies the cardpool provided and the early sets had abysmal design like underpowered or overleveled vanillas and effects that directly outdid each other in the same releases (look at the cards "Spark", "Hinotama" and "Final Flame" from "Legend of Blue-Eyes", normal Spells that burn for 200, 500, and 600 respectively, then a few weeks later Kaiba's deck would get released with "Ookazi" that burned for 800, and next set "Metal Raiders" would come with "Tremendous Fire" that burns for 1000. Of course this is because the first sets were an amalgamation of the JP sets in an effort to help the Western release catch up and "Sparks" actually is actually one of the 15 Konami cards that are older than rules of Konami's version of Yugioh. Still, even in JP they came way too close to each other) I think Dungeon Dice Monsters could work a lot better with these modifications and would have enjoyed a bit more success. Heck I've already tested taping the crests on normal dice and trying to do the "extra stock unfolded die roads" thing and I can say it helps xD (did it as a kid though so maybe I should give it a more serious test run)

Oh, thank you so much. This is seriously one of my favorite RU-vid series.

But I loved Dungeon Dice Monsters! It's exactly the same thing as yugioh! Seriously though, I actually liked it more than yugioh >.

Dexterity games are generally looked down upon by the gaming community as a whole. Most people prefer the mental, thought driven gameplay. I've found that as people get older bringing out a dexterity game only gets moans and groans. When people sit down they want to test their brain not their physical abilities.

Excellent information, educated opinions, delightful delivery. I'm a bit of a arm chair game academic and this could have been a presentation at GDC. Keep 'em up! I look forward to more. Thanks

Never thought I'd be this into George Costanza teaching me about card games.

I think a good test that demonstrates this is the issue my friends and I encountered when we tried to use Ikoria cards while playing MTG on a sim called Cockatrice. Without any special components programmed in, to handle keyword counters we had to just come up with ways to track it. The less you have to track with components other than cards, the better!

I just use LEGO for Keyforge tokens (I also use red d6s for damage) Edit: For Keyforge organized play, you can't use dice :(

Always such A+ content. Thanks for doing what you do, Kohdok! This series keeps me coming back.

The gimmick of equipping an endzone could have been made into a feature where you claim the cards in the center as a resource to win the game instead of using it as an awful gameboard (which could easily be remedied with a $ 0.01 paper mat). The cards equipped could then be added back to the to the total resource pool to prolong the game. Additionally, adding another layer to it the equipped cards can be something that cards are designed around with their effects and such.

I totally started playing Keyforge without the starter set, just a few dice and shredded pieces of paper. MTG is about as bad with its life counter and tokens.

I remember when I first seen Redakai at my local card shop... it just seemed like such a bad idea. At some point I remember seeing them in the dollar store, and I still didn't want them :D

That pkmn tcg theme from gamboy hit me right in the nostalgia organ.

the bits and pieces I have made/bought to play arkham horror has indeed turned it into a board game. I see this as a total win!

As soon as you started talking about the cost of extra junk I knew the eye of judgment was going to be in the video. Btw, they did release an all digital version for psp, but I'm not sure if you can actually play other players. Another game that, in my opinion, did the board game/card game thing well was Anachronism. Yet, it had one moving piece per player and the board was simple. I think that made a huge difference.

"...Unless every console comes packed with a camera as standard..." Big OOF on Xbox One when that was a thing but it was a different gaming environment back then Glad to see the augmented reality cards getting mentioned like Eye of Judgement. One thing I heard is that you can bypass buying the cards and get a proxy scan of them to have the game register them as real. Don't condone proxy cards unless it is EXTREMELY HARD to come by but those are rare and are collectors' pieces at most

I like this series a lot!! Keep up the good work!!

I've only just found this channel, and I've never really been into physical cardgames. But I really love watching videos about game design, no matter what kind of game it is. Anyway, it seems like a lot of these games could benefit from being digital rather than physical. Physical cardgames have their place, but when your game requires players keeping track of stat boosts, status effects, resources transferring from turn to turn, etc, it'll become too much for the player to keep track of. A digital cardgame can keep track of this stuff for you, and actually change the text on the card to reflect a buff (ie. you give a card +4 attack, now it says it deals 20 damage instead of 16). Meanwhile, a physical cardgame requires you to use tokens and stuff to keep track of that. Physical cardgames seem to have a problem of designers over-doing things and forgetting that they're not making a computer game. It seems that a lot of cardgames fail to play to their limitations, which is a shame because limitation is what breeds creativity.

To be fair, for Keyforge we just use our MTG dice.

i'm surprised battle spirits didn't make it onto the list of games mentioned especially with the latest block introducing more and more places to allocate cores to

"You can't really get better at rolling random dice." Tell that to us TTRPG players.

The big thing that you've convinced me of is that I should give Keyforge a try.

How about Arkham Horror LCG? One of my favorite games of all time, and the cards are the map. But... It also means each mission you play can have a unique map!

OH NO THIS IS TOTALLY CALLING OUT MY TERRIBLE IDEA FOR A GAME WHERE YOU SUMMON MONSTERS FROM A DECK ONTO A FIELD AND THEN PLAY A MINIATURES GAME WITH CARDS.

Good video as usual. I know you don't like it but in this context it's worth mentioning that Vanguard (and Weiss Schwarz) uses only its cards* to do everything, including damage, and doesn't have the practical issues of "card boards" like the football game. Also, it would have been nice for you to mention that while "skill challenges" can be fun, as physical dexterity tests they are a major accessibility issue, which is a pretty big problem for trading card games which I know plenty of people first get into specifically because their physical simplicity allows them to play at all. *in bigger sanctioned tournaments Bushiroad technically requires you to track temporary effects with their provided tokens, but they aren't necessary for normal play and you don't have to have them yourself so it still avoids the issues mentioned in the video. Bushi also has everyone play on their paper mats at tournaments. strange decisions from that company sometimes

"I can sense a lot of you sneering" I'm sneering so fucking hard right now that I'd be concerned if you couldn't sense it.

IM BEEN WAITING FOR THIS

Looks like it is a good thing I cut the "moving on a grid" aspect of my card game project. It was a b!tch to balance anyway, but the whole 5x5 grid + channel section would have been hard to make into a correct board layout... Also, I am firmly against "skill challenges" because if the benefits are too strong, it can lead to a player winning your card game... by being good at something that doesn't directly involve the cards.

God damn your videos are flooding me with nostalgia today! I use to love jumping into random trading card games! I wanted Eye of Judgment SO badly when it came out lol...dang I was obsessed with it! But yeah, I didn't own a ps3 and there was no way I was going to spend that much to get into a card game (lol, meanwhile I'm willing to spend triple or more on just 1 single deck for Magic the Gathering >.

When I was a kid, a friend of mine and I used to sometimes play a bastardized mix of Yu-Gi-Oh and its spinoff Dungeon Dice Monsters (closest "official" thing would be the labyrinth duel from Duelist Kingdom in the anime) on a giant cloth checkerboard big enough to use the cards as playing pieces. Every card had to be placed on the board to be used - monsters had to be adjacent to attack and could move based on the roll of a single D6, while 2D6 was used to determine the maximum level you could normal summon for your turn (instead of the tribute system), spells could be placed anywhere on your half of the board and activated immediately, and traps had to be set face-down on your half of the board the board and automatically activated when a monster made contact with them (they were easy to avoid early on but once there were more monsters on the field you started having a sort of "herding" situation where weaker monsters would often trigger traps. Unless otherwise stated, traps would always affect the monster that triggered them regardless of whether that monster was a valid target or not in the normal game - that way things like Trap Hole weren't rendered useless. From what I remember, it was actually quite fun (even though I got my ass kicked all the time because my friend played TER Turbo whereas I was still fafthing about with Blue-Eyes White Dragon). The main downside is that you needed a pretty sizeable board - but it was a standardized type of board that was used for other games. IMO, merging TCGs and board games isn't unfeasable, you just need to strike a good balance. Our bastardized "Yu-Dungeon-Gi-Dice-Oh-Monsters" game was pretty simple all things considered, just needing dice, a suitable board and each player's deck. Obviously it won't work as well with modern Yu-Gi-Oh (Pendulums can't work with it, Links can't work with it, many traps now do things other than "destroy a monster" or "increase/reduce a monster's ATK or DEF") but I feel like as a dedicated game it could work quite well, or at least better than TCG/Board Game hybrids that lean more heavily into the board game side of things.

I started playing magic only 'cause there was the "welcome deck" (or whatever they are called in USA) and it was free. So we just needed an app, the decks itselves and the general rules that were in a paper inside the welcome deck box. Been an player since then. Of course I'm just playing with my friends cause I just started to really get into it last year, and we have a pandemic right now...

"Cardgame players don't like lugging around lots of crap." Me, an idiot: Carries around a fuck ton of spindowns to every commander game because atraxa and ezuri are my life

I'm not actually into TCGs, designing or playing, but a lot of the lessons in this series are relevant to other types of games as well. You directly reference standalone games and things which work in them but not TCGs (and vice versa), as well as board games on a number of occasions. It's been an interesting set of videos to watch, and this video in particular relates well to the first game I've made. It's a standalone card game called Clean Cut, which simulates a sword duel in only 15 cards, providing a complete 2-player experience for less than the usual cost of a TCG booster pack. The original concept I started from was a horrific mess. I had a gimmicky tacked on idea for a time track that was made using cards. It had all the problems you get from building a baord out of cards, but turned up to 11. Then I realised the solution was to build the game around that mechanic instead of bolting it onto the side of a "normal" game. The result was a game which has you building a VERY SHORT and much more manageable time track out of the cards in your hand, then picking up older cards to cycle them back to your hand, not needing a deck and not having randomisation as a gameplay element.

Probably my favorite episode so far

As a player of Keyforge: Bullshit. If you've played MTG or something else with tokens you know that you can always use dice to represent everything they try to sell you in the starter set. Is it nice and looks good? Yes. Is it needed to play? No. It's much like the player mats for the other games. Edit. You even made this point yourself.

Next should be "Not" expanding the game to other countries

These videos really make me want to make a CCG/TCG/LCG (I lump all three together because they are based upon the same principles of preconstructing a deck and that is mostly all you need besides the points you bring up in the video). Specifically, my game idea is based on hecatomb’s idea of combining cards to create a powerful monster to fight with. Except, instead of five sided transparent cards you stack nicely on top of each other, when you play a monster card you select a body part (head, torso, feet, left arm, right arm) and place the card in the appropriate spot. The limiting factors being the torso must be placed first (all other posts area screwed onto the torso) and the other cards behind the torso with the relevant edge’s text peaking out.

the more he talked about a card + board game, the more i was thinking "you mean, Duelyst?"

23:10 “magic the gathering arena similarly wound up on discount in board game stores worldwide” I know this was an honest mistake, but what are you talking about here? MtG arena is the online version

I'm sure someone has probably already pointed this out, but the real issue with Skill Challenges in card games is accessibility. Differently-abled players won't be able to play at the same level as each other, and that's incredibly limiting on your player base. Now, I will say, I've played against people with handicaps in Magic tournaments and other games that are almost exclusively cards. There's a player at my LGS who doesn't have hands, but he's able to pick up and play cards with just a holding station and kind of manipulate his board with his arms. But I can't see a viable way for him to play something like Bakugan or the crane mechanic without a unique apparatus. Not a death-knell for a board game, but like wheelchair ramps and closed captioning, considering how to help disabled people use and interact with your creation helps everyone. You often find ways to make things better even for your "average" player!

As both a miniature games player and a card games player, i can assure: most players like to keep one as far away possible from the other. Miniature gamers dont like to play a miniature game that has cardgame mechanics and card games gamers dont like the extra cost/effort associated with miniatures.

Got to love these vods

Uh...you actually need more than $10 to start playing Yugi Oh!, at least to play at local. Ideally one need to spend $30 to get three of the same Structure Deck or Starter Deck to build the optimal build for said deck. This is something I really wish would change in the future.

Hi kohdok, please check the instagram message i sent you in regards to this video and the game i am devloping. In short, my game is a tcg that uses cards for a board, but i still think it works well and people have found it fun during playtesting, but i still wanted to discuss this further to get your thoughts.

I have seen one game back in the late 90's that used cards as a board quite well, 7th Sea. This was a game that was during that boom time where everyone and their dog tried making a CCG to become the next MTG it seemed like. The movement of the ship across the sea and having to figure out where you were in relation to the other boat's was great. We also usually just laid out the sea cards and kept the boat near it instead of placing it directly on the sea card.

I have been LOVING this eries dude, too bad we are only one episode away from it ending :((( But I can't wait to rewatch them all again!

This sin was painfully biased to your own personal preferences. Disappointed.

“I bet a lot of you are sneering...” Nah my man I was still just thrown off/in awe by that Battle Claw.

"Dominion has a pretty simple set up and execution" *Laughs in Adventures"

Bro, that pirates card really brought me back. one year working at summer camp a bunch of us bought out the game store's stock of this and played it all the time

I play keyforge and I want to clarify something. You don't need those tokens, you just need something to represent them.... Even dice. The only limitations are: The tokens are clear to you and your opponent on what they represent. No dice used to count stuff in tournament play because they don't trust those to count... For some reason. Yeah most of us don't fully understand this either. You can also play the game online needing only the deck.

Regarding placement: I have to say that when I was going to middle school I used to play a card game named Adrenalyne XL, where the cards are players from the Serie A, the biggest Italian football (soccer) league. I think the game overall made a good use of the placement as a mechanic. As a deck had 11+ cards, 11 players on field and some on the bench. The players on field had to be put face-down in a typical football formation like 4-4-3 and 4-4-2 which created a lot of cool mind games. Now that I look back to this game, I think the placement was the only good thing.

Great I was looking forward to this episode the most

I kept expecting you to talk about the major negative of skill challenge games: accessibility. People with motor issues often just can't play them.