It takes a different kind of person to stand proud in the middle of your bridge, knowing that in seconds, the ship and everyone on it will be destroyed. Say what you want about the TOS version of this conflict, but this had me glued to the screen just as easily. Well done.
The lines the Romulus officer state about “in a different reality we could have been friends” is lifted from TOS episode where the Romulan ship was chasing Kirk’s Enterprise.
@@WheeledWarrior69 There are many scenes that basically lift the script of the TOS episode, word for word, in the SNW final episode. While it was probably intended as a homage, Secret Hideout seemingly refuse to develop hard hitting content, and reach for the work of others to dangle memberberries and take something that worked once... to repeat it over and over. After 5 years and now 14 seasons... I would have hoped they would be developing something that pushed out of the memberberrie zone to develop something unique with it's own identity. It's as if the Secret Hideout board are afraid to let their creatives off the leash... Which considering they staffed SH with people who are not fans of Trek means anything they produce will have that tinge of passive aggressive reviling of what Trek is. PS3 might be getting good word of mouth... But dig behind the superficial and it's got exactly the same problems as every other SH Trek show. 5 years, and they haven't gotten their act together.
I like seeing that Pike had compassion even for his enemies. Perhaps they could have been friends in another reality. Or maybe, since this is a potential future, Pike can just make an alternate timeline all together.
Keep in mind that under his orders several hundred Starfleet personnel were brutually murdered without provocation before you get too gushy about him. He rose to power in a society that values treachery the way the Klingons do honor.
@@fmlazar I can't remember how much they show of him in this version, but in the TOS version of these events they show several scenes from the Romulan perspective and he is very much against the whole mission. He doesn't want another war, and at one point even confides to his friend that he wishes Kirk would kill them so there wouldn't be one. Mark Lenard killed it in that role, and it's one of the reasons the original is one of the best episodes of TOS.
None, obviously, that's the advantage of having an exterior view, it's also a piece of media, if that was a real event, I'd probably not have the same feelings.
@@madlarkin8 Much like the Romans, "wasting" (in multiple senses) a perfectly good highly trained, and expensive 10th of a force. Note also that the Roman way was as much a punishment on the executors as the executed: it wasn't clean (a decimation wasn't carried out with blades, but with blunt sticks and clubs) and it wasn't the other sections of the force doing the execution, but rather the messmates of the condemned.
What I find really interesting is the parallels between Pike and the Romulan Commander. The Romulan Commander considers his fate sealed, accepts it and exits with dignity; in a way almost showing Pike an example. Pike by the episode's end manages to accept his own fate rather than trying to alter or fight it. And from all appearances is prepared to meet his fate with as much composure and dignity as he can muster.
That was the lesson Pike needed to learn. Sadly, his tragic, undeserved, cruel fate leads to the best outcome for the galaxy. DSCs done a lot wrong, but casting Mount as Pike, reinvigorating the prime version... combined with Anson just hitting it out of the park... to me is worth all the sins of DSC.
@@MadSpectre47 Eh, he gets to spend the rest of his days in a mental paradise that puts the holodeck to shame, with a woman who loves him and is into Orion cosplay. Not that dark. The cruel thing is he has no idea about that part because Time Crystals are a*holes.
It's certainly so far (including S2 of SNW) the best written and acted and filmed/edited one of them. Ad astra per aspera comes in at 2nd only because it got a little too caught up in the dramatics of the messaging.
I like the fact that the production shine a light on Pikes face, The Hot dot method, they used it when on TOS when a character was being focused on, nice little call back! Plus this scene dose great job of showing the nature of the Romulans in their imperial age, ruthless and cunning, but sympatric and nuanced, but still clearly villainous. Plus, the destruction of the warbird fits into their Romanesque nature, the Romans would punish entire units that were found to behaved dishonorable in battle, the practice was called Decimation.
1/10th was killed. Deci meaning 10. they could of just killed the captain. This is the thing. Romulans are the most human of all the aliens. the most significant story of TNG was when all the major forces was looking for an ancient civilization for their own selfish reason. Data decoded a message, while everyone was bickering. Ferengi was mad because there was no profit. Klingons didn't find a new weapon. Picard was annoyed because no one else would listen to the message, then the Romulans sent a personal message about some day.
Omg. I just realized that Pike is THE ONLY ONE who knows how romulans look like. And its before Kirks encounter when it was revealed officialy. And he cant reveal that cus of temporal rules. Omg.
On April 18, 1943 over Bougainville Island, US fighters intercepted a Japanese flight of 2 transport aircrafts with escort fighters for the Imperial Japanese Navy Admiral Yamamoto Isoroku and shot his transport down killing him and the crew. While Yamamoto was demonized by the US for planning and executing the Pearl Harbor attack which brought the US into WW2, he in fact opposed hostility with the US and the war with China as well as opposing Japan's alliance with Nazi Germany. His opposition was so vehement that the Imperial Japanese Army had planned to have him assassinated, so in order to save him the Japanese Naval Ministry sent him to sea protected by naval personnel. Of all the Japanese high ranking officers, he was one of a handful that had lived in the America and attended the US Naval War College. Following the Panay Incident in 1937, as Deputy Naval Minister he apologized to the US Ambassador and privately warned him of the grow hostile militarism in Japan. By 1941, after years of trying to prevent war with the US, it became clear to him that Japan was going to war and he had no choice but to do his duty for his country knowing there was little if any hope of victory.
@@michaelzahnle5649 So we can expect a bunch of fighters to ambush the guy in the blue coat and uniform over some jungle on their planet with some P38s? Sounds reasonable.
Having recently rewatched both this episode and the TOS episode it parallels, the differences of Pike and Kirk are highlighted quite well. Pike is the quintessential Starfleet Officer. He's compassionate, competent, confident, always looking for a diplomatic solution. Kirk, on the other hand, is more pragmatic (tactically, at least). He'll pursue diplomatic options unless he thinks they'll lead to greater problems in the future. Where Pike sought a purely diplomatic solution to the crisis with the Romulans, ignoring all the historical and present evidence that such a solution wasn't forthcoming, Kirk called a council of war and took the advice of Spock and Stiles, pursuing and engaging the Romulan ship until the ship was destroyed. In both cases, the correct course of action was to destroy the Romulan ship. And, by the end of the episode, Pike realized that and also realized that fate cannot and should not be fought.
The problem with this whole episode -- as far as Pike's actions go -- is that it was _stupid_ for Pike to seek negotiations at all. The time for negotiation is passed when your adversary has snuck into your territory, blatantly and deliberately violating a peace treaty, and launched an unprovoked sneak attack on your outposts, killing your personnel and destroying your facilities. It would be like us crawling to the Japanese to negotiate after the attack on Pearl Harbor. There is no negotiating at that point. The other side _has already started a war_ and at this point what you have to do is fight it. After you have beaten the enemy, _then_ you negotiate.
@@Hibernicus1968Vengeance is a rubbish reason to fight a war, and just leads to pointless death and suffering. Negotiation, if it works, is often preferable. The trick is knowing how and when to do it. Destroying or capturing the warbird, THEN negotiating for peace (which is what happened in TOS) was the right call. Pike simply miscalculated by trying to make peace at the wrong moment with the wrong person.
@@Cailus3542 Pike was an idiot even to _try_ negotiating with _any_ Romulan after their attack. This isn't about vengeance. You couldn't be missing the mark by a wider margin if you tried. When the enemy has launched a totally unprovoked attack, destroyed your outposts, and killed some of your people, there is no negotiation. There is already a war on and _they started it._ They started it because they had decided you were weak enough for them to attack successfully. If you respond by trying to negotiate instead of by defending yourself, you just proved them right. Bullies aren't looking for a fight; they're looking for _prey._ Don't be prey. It's not about vengeance; it's about deterrence. In the original "Balance of Terror," there was no war because Kirk aggressively hunted down the attacking Romulan ship and destroyed it. The Romulans were looking to launch a war of aggression against the Federation, and his attack was a probe to see A) how strong the Federation was after a century of peace, and B) Whether the Romulas' new plasma weapon was a game changer for them. The failure of this probing attack was what persuaded the Romulans that the Federation was still too strong for them to want to fight an all-out war with. Kirk never negotiated with the Romulans -- that would have required contact with the Romulan Empire's leadership. He simply tried to get the captain of a defeated ship to surrender. It was strength and a willingness to fight back that prevented a war, not negotiating from a position of weakness -- this episode showed that _guaranteed_ one. Deterrence, not vengeance.
I feel like the Romulans would have either denied the allegations despite the evidence or claimed the ship was rogue and laid the blame on them alone. Execution for "letting oneself be caught" doesn't really solve any diplomatic issues.
You didn't pick up on the subplot that they were looking for an excuse and doing it this publicly meant that the Empress had all the justification she needed, unlike when Kirk was responsible for this, in which it was a very sort of private affair That didn't involve drawing the star empire in or publicly embarrassing the Empress
You're looking this from the Federation's perspective. The Romulan didn't want to solve the diplomatic issues, they always wanted to look for weakness of different faction to exploit. When Pike tried to pursue for diplomatic solution, the Praetor saw this as Federation's weakness. Thus came the Romulan's conclusion that the Federation was so weak that they will use diplomacy to solve any issue, even when one of their station was destroyed by the Romulan Warbird. This can be compared to the appeasement policy that Nevil Chamberlain did to Nazi Germany before WWII.
When I go back to the original series I will watch this episode thinking there’s a cloaked Romulan fleet watching Kirk charge headlong after this one ship, and then deciding they do not want to mess with a whole federation of these madmen.
They used it in TNG and Picard. I just think it's inappropriate to use it in this case, since it does mean "may your day be filled with peace." Furthermore, most languages have different phrases for "see you later" and "farewell."
@@weremus8639 except for that first romulan in unification who has a full conversation with disguised picard and data, then says jolan tru before walking away. Seems to be interchangably greeting and farewell like ciao But i guess i always percieved it as a more patriotic salute type of phrase, based off the conversations i remember it from
"In another reality they might have been friends". But they weren't in this reality and that phrase is generally reserved for those in common cause. Romulan to Romulan.
Aside from everything else that's great about this episode, the costume designers in SNW deserve an Emmy. Not only did they beautifully update the TOS uniform, but those Romulan uniforms are incredible.
Shocked people dont know this script is lifted off from "Balance of Terror" in the Original Series. A key difference is the romulan commander self-destructs rather than be captured after being defeated in battle.
I feel like we've seen a scene exactly like this before....oh yeah, ST:TNG and TOS. Of course, there has to be an unbelievable number of ships this time, because that is what makes better viewing - just upscale everything.
Yes, the whole point of the episode is that we've seen this *exactly* before, this is the TOS episode "Balance of Terror" and that is Mark Lenard's Romulan character. It's an alternate timeline with Pike still in command of the Enterprise to show him the kinds of things that would happen if he tried to change his fate as per "The Menagerie". The comet, the outposts, the Romulan's dialogue, everything is line-by-line the same conflict except where Kirk presses the attack, Pike tries to negotiate and it blows up in his face.
It never happens because at this point The federation has scans and samples of the technology of future Romulus from the narada and technologically leap frogs massively forward from where they should be in The prime time line. The Star Empire also tries to finish wiping out the Vulcans, Federation knows about what they are and their links to the Vulcans, etc etc. Also in the kelvin timeline the enterprise is destroyed in 2263, balance of terror happens in 2266
@girl1213 More like what happens *with* him because the romulans were as surprised as anyone else when he showed up and only afterwards and after a period of Time wondering "Just what the f*** *happened* here?!" they started to interfere
still unsure why they chose to do a nearly word-for-word remake of "Balance of Terror" ... with Both Pike and Kirk....does a lot of this happen in this show?
No. This is the first and only time they did it. It's the season finale, and it was for a very specific reason. Pike changed history, and his future self came back to put it back the way it was because the change went very poorly. It was meant to demonstrate that Kirk had to be the one to handle it, with Spock, or it would be a disaster. Which, is the part I have a problem with. Fate is a very stupid concept, and this show plays with it a little too much. But, aside from that, great show.
@@DoremiFasolatido1979 Actually, Star Trek has a loooooooong history of this sort of thing. Every series except perhaps Voyager has done this at least once. The only reason Voyager didn't was because they were in another quadrant of the galaxy.
@@protoborg recurring themes, near same storlyline, occasional direct references to the TOS, yes....word for word dialog without the actual original cast in there (the DS9 episode that was an "homage" to Trouble with Tribbles") I don't remember a single other time they did it like this. But after the previous post, I went and checked it out ... and saw what they were going for.
@@protoborg Actually, they did. Voyager Episode "Timeless" Harry Kim and Chakotay had escaped Voyager's destruction and reach Alpha Quadrant, but eventually saved everyone via a message back in time.
I do feel for the Romulan commander. He is a serial killer. But also a man of some conscience. How would Pike have been able to help the Romulan commander (and his crew) after beaming his crew over to Enterprise? The Romulan commander is a serial killer. The Romulan's crew would have spent the rest of their live in a Federation jail. And I doubt that Romulans take prisoner exchanges.
One day the Romulans lose their world and they're forced to accept it, and then from that moment relations improved with starfleet, even before the loss of their world, relations were better. Until of cause they sabotaged themselves by causing the synths to go rouge, therefor reducing their numbers even more since starfleet called off the rescue attempt.
This is the dialog from the episode "The Balance of Terror" I'm glad that the writing has improved but don't copy dialog from TOS that's just cheap. I'm beginning to think of this as another Star Trek timeline. In the TOS no one had ever seen a Romulan until until the Balance of Terror episode.
Well the vulcans and romulans had warp drive earlier than humans and explored the earth cultures. It looks like the romulans admired the roman empire and modeled themselves on it, albiet with some changes as well.
The Romulans are pretty progressive in terms of gender parity. We see many strong Romulan women in positions of power. Their male subordinates are quite willing to follow their orders.
This isn't an accurate future because this Captain Pike is a fish out of water and hasn't kept up on intelligence for over 7 years. Further, he's not up on crew and ship capabilities. Of course, he'll perform badly. It's like me, a 1990s Marine, being asked to fight a battle with modern equipment against a modern enemy without any idea what's going on. From my standpoint, the Cold War is over and we're friends with Russia and fighting Iraq.
Its about character. Pike and Kirk have the same knowledge of the Romulans as they would in their respective timeframes/realities. This is still his Enterprise. This is still his crew. He knows what it can do. What changes is how he and Kirk responded to the situation at hand.
@@JcBravo8 That and the Future Pike wanted him see what happen. If he changed his fate...As Kirk prevented the conflict. Thus saving millions of lives... I would add. Kirk was willing to sacrifice the Enterprise to make sure. As Spock warned him what would happen. If they got away...
Not really that friendly. We know their weakness and they know our. As you can see in Ukraine today. Putin has threatened NATO with Nuclear War if it is push in Ukraine. For some reason Putin has forgotten about M.A.D. which prevented a full war between the West and East during the Cold War era. A show of strength is the best defense to some.
They had chosen to change everything else about this incident they should also have changed the character personality of the Romulan commander into someone more blood thirsty.
Bit of a PSA for more recent Trek fans; here is the same scene from the TOS version of this encounter with Mark Lenard as the Romulan and Kirk commanding the Enterprise: ru-vid.com/video/%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BE-cYnk4AqUpfA.htmlsi=i_4cE4pz0FeY87K_&t=101
Ah the pathetic ramblings of fools, desperately clawing for reasons to hate the new, even when it's a fantastic show. "Hurr hurr, you could've used the ship." Yes, that's the entire point, the Romulans are: Dealing with a failure, showing their own forces the price of failure AND showing how certain they are of victory to the enemy, that they can just throw away ships, with a single power move. "Reeee, Romulans would've denied the ship worked for them." Clearly spoken from the ignorance of only watching clips, the Romulans here are **declaring war**, what do they care about covering it up at this point? "B-b-but Pike's 7 years out of date!" He's captaining the same ship and all information on the Romulans is antiquated, they don't even know the species at the start of the episode AND practically nothing Pike could've 'known about' would've changed the outcomes. 7 years makes no difference here. "Stealing lines" It's meant to be the exact same episode but with a different captain, of course the lines are going to be the same, it's how a homage works, you invalids. What next, going to complain Kirk says the same lines in DS9's trouble with tribbles to Sisko at the end? The hilarious part is, if you were this overly "critical" of the TOS or TNG you're so vehemently defending by attacking, you'd find far more wrong with those than you'll ever find with SNW. Be an actual trekkie instead of a toxic fake fan.
I tip my hat to you good sir. I found the episode probably one of the best in Star Trek. Too many people out there being critical and complaining about stuff just to be trolls for attention. I am excited to see more out of season 2. The Lower Decks cross over. Showing what happened with Kirk when that space amoeba killed the crew of his first ship. So many secrets they are keeping!
I've seen a couple clips from this episode now. How can they say Strange new Worlds is canon when this totally violates the TOS time line? Kirk's Enterprise had this encounter with the Romulans and was the first to see their faces, not Pike. (I haven't seen this series; I'm just going on the assertion I read that says it's canon to TOS)
This was an alternate timeline where Pike did not have that incident that crippled him and allowed Kirk to be the Enterprise captain for the events of The Balance of Terror.
I would advise you to research before saying anything because this is an alternate reality where Pike decides "I know who dies in that simulation that ends up crippling me" And tries to do something about it, not realizing that without Kirk on the enterprise's bridge, things go very very wrong and it leads to decades of war so bad the monks on Boreth give him another time crystal to go back and fix shit. Admiral Pike shows up as Captain pike is writing a letter to one of those "destined to die" students, and because he knows that past him won't accept what he says without proof, drops Pike into the Point of Divergence for that timeline.
@@TheOtherNeutrinoExcept Kirk didn't get command of the Enterprise due to Pike's injury. The Menagerie states that Pike was promoted to Fleet Captain or whatever. Kirk met him then. The incident on the trainee ship occurred after that. This show is fuxking stupid.
I feel a sense of disgust that the writers are portraying the Romulan commander as an honourable man merely obeying orders issued by an unjust leader. He killed many thousands of innocent people, and the fact is, he could have chosen to not do it, either by leaving the military before that or refusing the order and getting executed. I feel as little for him as I would a Nazi or Imperial Japanese soldier trying to offer up the same excuse.
Should have beamed all crew & the cloak device over to enterprise... then make a run for it! xD Also beam a few BORG ice drones over & let them deal with them :D
this captain does a good job, but this episode, ripoff as it is, can't come close to the TOS original with MARK LENARD (who later became Sarek) as the Romulan commander. That acting and writing were on another level.
I'm pretty liberal but I've been a Trek fan since I was a kid. Why are there black Vulcans? Black people are from a region of Earth where their skin tone and hair have evolved to maintain their bodies with the heat of Africa. White people, their and skin is adapted for colder environments. Worldwide, people evolved due to the environments that surrounded them. (I knew Jamaicans in the Army who would be freezing if it was 40 degrees out. Funny place to put Jamaican servicemen actually...in upstate New York.) Vulcans, Romulans, Klingons, Cardassians....none of them could be considered white or black. Even Vulcans had a Mediterranean feel to them. Humanity was what gave Star Trek diversity. That our differences was what made us strong. The fact that we had a Russian on the bridge during the Cold War, a Black Female officer, a Japanese helmsman who later became a Captain himself....that's the embodiment of how humanity was stronger when it was united. It was due to our differences that we learned how to relate to others! I don't think I've written "woke" anything anywhere but this wokeness in the production is insulting.
Are going to act like our man Tuvok hadn’t been a thing for 30 years? Even Klingons (post TMP change) have had a variety of skin tones. Look at the range of Klingons in The Undiscovered Country.
How is that even a question? We have Black Humans. Vulcan Tuvok from Voyager is Black. Black Vulcans means that Black Romulans will also exist. Romulans are a GENETIC OFFSHOOT of the Vulcans.
“Misdirection is the key to survival, never attack what your enemy defends, never behave as your enemy expects, and never reveal your true strength, if knowledge is power then to be unknown is to be unconquerable.” Why did the romulans stand off against a terran defence fleet? thats out of character "Never attack what your enemy defends" Why were the majority uncloaked? "Never reveal your true strength" This is so NOT how the Romulans work... Sitting there Uncloaked, telling Pike "That commander shouldnt have let himself be caught"... Pfft...
You’ve clearly never actually seen this episode. That must be the only explanation for your I’ll informed comment. It’s an homage to Balance of Terror, speculating how it may have played out if Pike and not Kirk was in command.
Mark Lenard didn't own those lines, Paramount does. And they can use them however they please. And you really really really don't seem to understand the context of this episode.
How? It just shows that Pike was in a situation that needed a Kirk and failed because of it. It's where he learns to abide by the dictates of Fate as he's just been shown the consequences of his avoiding it.
if that is what you gathered from season 2 of SNW, then it seems like you were looking for something to criticise, given in context with these episodes you referenced they are finely written and enjoyable episodes, just like everything else from both seasons.
Season 2 was objectively better than Season 1 particularly in the back half. Only people with severe coping issues and desperate need of physical contact with grass think otherwise.
Since you never watched it, it can be understood that you failed to understand that the WHOLE POINT of the episode is that it's a revisit of "Balance of Terrror" if it was Pike instead of Kirk still holding the center seat.
What a poor remake of the original episode. Mark Leonard gave pathos and depth to the Romulan Commander - this poor actor is never given a chance to be anything but a cardboard cutout of a villain. Really bad writing.
