What If Milton Lied About Micah Being A Rat? 

I agree, think that's exactly what happened. Arthur: "you're a rat" Micah: "I'm a survivor black lung" He didn't deny it for one. And two, he claims he's a survivor because he knows that the Pinkerton's would catch up with Dutch's gang sooner or later, so he chose to take the deal. Still a dishonorable rat, but he did what many people still do to this day, throw their crime associates under the bus so they can get a pardon. If there was no imminent threat on the gang, he would have no reason to betray them

Holy McMoly! I never connected that Micah never denied being a rat and instead, justifying it. After all these years. One simple reply, unraveling a mystery. You’re good my friend. Good detective work!

@@N.E.TGaming Funny how he didn't deny it when Dutch isn't around but as soon as Dutch is there, he denies it. That's your answer right there.

Micah Bell’s Plan Join The Van Der Linde gang just to earn profits as his own gang was disbanded Manipulate Dutch into robbing the ferry boat in Blackwater so that Micah could get rich and leave the gang and possibly start his own gang Work with the Odriscoll’s and The Pinkertons to capture a gang member so that most of the gang comes to the rescue and then they would be surprised with not just the Odriscoll’s but the Pinkertons aswell so that the Van Der linde gang is killed in one felt swoop. He does this as Dutch’s gang are losing profits and he see’s Dutch’s bounty which is very big and The Pinkertons are going to pay him very good for his efforts of capturing and killing most of the gang. He hears That the Van Der linde gang is going to rob a bank he gets content of this idea since his cut is going to be possibly massive so that then he could leave the gang with the profits he has accumulated. And possibly start his own gang after he left the van Der linde gang Get constantly into Dutch’s ear to go back for the Blackwater money he tries to manipulate Dutch saying is for the survival of the gang and freedom in another country. But actually he just wants the money for himself possibly stealing it all betraying the gang and stay in hiding for a while after he steals the gang’s heist. And again possibly starting his own gang. After Guarma Micah is scared for his life as the pinkertons and the authorities are closing in to the Van der linde gang harder than ever. He now works directly with the Pinkertons instead of just an informant of the Odriscoll’s that then gave the imformation to the Pinkertons but now he works directly giving them information on there plans and the state of the gang. Try to kill the Van der linde gang after giving the location of the Van Der Linde’s gang hideout in Lakay. He obviously is going to get substantial money for being an informant. Now that he has fully manipulated Dutch into believing him to be a very loyal enforcer and great friend he sees this as an opportunity to win more cash as he convinces Dutch on doing impulsive and destructive act’s and telling Dutch false narratives continuously saying that Arthur and John are traitors and that all of Dutch’s impulsive plans is the right thing to do. After the long awaited and planned train robbery succeeds he plans to take his cut of the money with Dutch and leaving the United States with him. He possibly will leave after he has successfully left the United States and possibly Force the boat captain to take him back while the gang stays in TAHITI. Because of Arthur’s interference his plan didn’t work out as he would have wanted so he instead went out to kill Arthur as Dutch fully believed him that Arthur was a traitor and try to gain a bigger trust within Dutch when he kills him. But instead of trusting him more he actually see’s Micah for who he really is and leaves much to Micah’s anger. But it worked out better for him actually as he stole every last penny of the train robbery regained the money from Blackwater has complete law immunity as he works with the Pinkertons and started his own gang, Just like he always wanted a lot of money complete law immunity and his own gang. But because he killed Arthur his past came back to haunt him which led to his death.

That’s exactly what happened. “Why didn’t you take it.” “Very funny.” Micah took it cuz he’s a “survivor.” And surviving means stabbing your friends in the back, apparently.

That's not a confirmation at all.

​@@SpawnfreakIt certainly not a denial. More like an excuse

​@@Spawnfreak if your answer to "did u betray me?" Is "id do anything to live" U are confirming it U dont deny an accusation by naming yourself something that will literally do what u are accused of

​@@Spawnfreakit absolutely is. A Survivor will do anything to survive. That's what was insinuated.

@@Spawnfreakyea it is dipshit. How could you take it any other way?

great pickup

Good eye! I missed that! Also remember when they were attacked by the O'Driscols notice how Micah was nowhere to be seen. No only he was a rat but a traitor as well he was in bed with the O'Driscols as well he set Artur up to be kidnapped by the O'Driscols when Colm and Dutch met up. Like Colm said it was to kidnap Arthur and get rid of him hell even Colm said the police will get Dutch and be off his tail those are bargain words from Micah I bet.

Several others were also absent during the O’Driscolls’ attack. Micah could’ve been busy, as some gang members are occasionally. Additionally, it’s possible to that Micah, as the most experienced outlaw and one of Dutch’s closest allies, was sent before Arthur and the rest went on to track down the gang, and found them after being apprehended by Milton. Milton knew where the gang was because he followed Bill, not necessarily because of Micah. He had the resources to launch an attack or sneak right in and hold the gang’s women as hostages or arrest them for participating in criminal activities but did not because he didn’t know where they were until he tracked Bill. I doubt Micah was able to send Milton a letter in such a short time. They may have followed Arthur too and by that point they decided to wait for the rest, including Dutch.

Because he was the first to get back to camp and put his clothes on same with aruther he gets back before Dutch and puts on his clothes aswell

​@@chrismancini5645It was Pearson who came up with the idea of meeting the O'Driscolls

Strangely enough, last night before this video came out I thought about if he lied. But I realized he had no reason too. And since he "knew" Arthur wasnt going anywhere I guess it was an ego thing

If that's the case he wouldn't tell Arthur anything at all, he would just shoot him.

​@Spawnfreak clearly you don't understand ego very well. A man like Milton would absolutely gloat and brag before killing Arthur.

@@Spawnfreak The gang has been a pain in his ass for too long and Milton's ego suffered a lot of hits, so when he had Arthur at gunpoint, it was a perfect opportunity to finally get back at him and rub it in Arthur's face that look, I finally go you, and guess how? One of you betrayed you. Dutch prided himself on having people be loyal to him, so to be able to tell at least Arthur, Dutch's right hand man, that Micah betrayed them, was something Milton absolutely took pleasure in.

also he knew Arthur had TB and he had the girls tied up. He just assumed nothing would go wrong and to be fair if Abigail hadn't gotten free Arthur would have his brains splattered on the walls

Micah was a rat since Guarma Not chapter 2

​@@gergopiroska5749There's also a theory that Micah was playing three sides: O'Driscoll's gang, Pinkertons (he might've saved them for the future) and Van Der Linde gang; He might've had Cleet and Joe as a plant in O'Driscoll's gang and had plans to reap bounty money for both gangs.

@@gergopiroska5749 It's very simple. He showed his motivation in chapter two by keeping Dutch's wanted information. Later in the game when confronted, he became a rat. Try not to wrack your brain too hard at figuring out how this works.

yep. Micah was a rat playing everyone. He doesn't have loyalty to a single person. Men like him keep their eyes open for any opportunity. So the first sign he could rat out on Dutch and get something out of it he obviously would. I mean funny thing is we saw what happened to John after helping the Pinkertons so Ironically Micah (being far worse than John) would probably have ended up hung or shot himself since Pinkertons don't have good track record of keeping their word @@SomeCanine

@@gergopiroska5749 When you find Micah hiding on the cliff and do his quest, after he leaves if you go back to his camp he has the bounty poster for Dutch that he tried to burn. He was thinking about collecting on Dutch's bounty back in Chapter 2.

Not to mention everything that came before, including Blackwater. Plus, in 1911, John destroyed the Mexican government and brought down the 3 remaining remnants of the Wild West down.

Milton wasn't lying to Arthur, he was lying to Sadie who would turn everyone against Micah for him eliminated two of his targets, he was planing on killing Arthur after all. But lying to Sadie vicariously and convincing her that Molly wasn't the real rat would sow seeds of destruction within the gang. Lets remember the betrayal was snitching about the bank, if micah wasn't picked up till after the bank heist then how is he the rat, what was his specific betrayal, it makes way more sense for molly to be that pathetic, especially since she said she was.

he thought it was funny

I know Cynic's theory might be a stretch, but it's not out of realm of possibility, considering what you said still doesn't entirely discount the odd details that Cynic pointed out.

micah just didn't give a shid about anyone but himself from the start of the game

Bruh John and Abigail were the rats...how did John get caught/left for dead and not killed? How did Milton find Arthur at the river when he took jack "fishing" bc Abigail asked him to? How TF did Abigail get away when they caught her with Hosea?? They killed Hosea right then and there but they didn't kill her and she got away? Bc Abigail was working with the pinkertons and so was John...hell John even left the gang for a year no telling what he got into or if he came back to set up dutch Also let's not gloss over the fact that John came back and started working for the law and catching and killing his former gang members/ brothers. He literally started working for the law doesn't matter why he's a former gang member who was ok going fed for his family.. He always had it in him... The gang had multiple rats...it's crazy how ppl just gloss over how he gets caught and left behind and doesn't get killed and how they didn't kill Hosea and Abigail...they didn't kill her bc she tipped them off about the robbery and let her go so she could get more members caught.

Cold line, cold and hard line

How could they have picked Micah up when Micah is at the Lakay camp before Arthur?

@@SpawnfreakMicah probably came a lot earlier😂

Maybe Levi or Fussar let the pinkertons know that the gang staying in Guarma.

Molly probably told him. True, she dies very early in Chapter 6, however she probably knew that they landed on a tropical island. She told Milton about who went missing and when she learned where they went, she also told him. Milton could simply just fabricate the fact that they picked Micah. Molly doesn't have a reason to lie, she's even drunk which makes it more believable she's telling the truth.

they know that they were in guarma because fussar and his people sent word to america

He's not denouncing that, he's providing another way to interpret the story, because often what a story tells you or characters in them can be untrue in further inspection, it can be not as cut-and-dry as you once thought, it can highlight details that you might've not noticed or details that are straight-up left out.

@@nnnnmhughuuhhjiijj9457 Usually it's just some moron overthinking things and making up BS to try to justify their own ignorant interpretation.

I think the game fully intends to put you in the mindset of the characters you're playing as. The consequences you face as John and Arthur are the consequences of your gameplay decisions. At this moment, the devs wanted you to feel like John, wearing Arthur's hat and getting revenge even though Arthur would never have wanted that - and they doubled down on pinning you in this mindset by showing a rat, getting you hyped and ready to dome Micah. Which, you do, the consequences of which will be felt quite thoroughly by the end of the first game. Not everything is literal.

@@justanobody1713 so you are saying that the game is implying that John has the mindset of a rat at that point? That's why they show the rat on top of Mt. Hagen? That just sounds stupid. I'm well aware of art being nuanced, but yeah, sometimes things are extremely literal in there meaning. This isn't David Lynch here. Also, they show the rat after Micha is dead so it definitely isn't there to get you hyped to "dome" Micha. Pretty sure the rat scene was lifted straight from "The Departed" and put there so there wouldn't be speculation after the fact as to who the actual rat in the gang was. Like Freud said, "sometimes a cigar is just a cigar." You believe whatever you want. If nothing else happy to see someone who obviously really enjoyed the game and story as much as you seem to.

@@douglascarter2078 No, I am not saying John has the mentality of a rat you fucking retard. I'm not going to bother responding further since you can't even be fucked to read.

Lol well said. I know they’re just trying to squeeze content out of a 6 year old game, but when I read titles like “Was Abigail the rat all along???” it makes me wonder if I played the same game as these guys. It’s not that deep. Micah betrayed the gang to save his own skin, simple and true.

actually this's more of a sensible conclusion to the question

Yep the better theory is that Micah wasn't just helping the Pinkertons but the other gangs too. Good example of that was the meeting with the O'Driscalls. Funny how they knew exactly where Arthur was (who Micah knew he needed to be removed since he had too much influence and strength) and Micah was basically using Pearson as the fall guy. They also didn't go save Arthur instead leaving him behind once again. Something Micah tried to convince Dutch of constantly. Either way I think Micah was playing his hand to whomever could give him the best deal. If Dutch could give him money and freedom in another country, Micah took Dutch, If O'Driscalls offered him money and a new gang or something, Micah went to them (or he just used them to get rid of Arthur), If the Pinkertons offered him a lighter jail time or freedom for the gang, Micah would help the Pinkertons etc. @@LTD1863

really good comment

Well said we’ll said, it’s totally up for interpretation though so thsi is a great theory but I still believe the most likely scenario is micah not being a rat!

Million 💀

@@Gabriel-ki7uj just wait until you see agent billion

They must have inserted him in at some point.

There is no reason for him to lie in an encounter where he holds all the cards plus Milton already knows Arthur has tb even more reason he doesnt have to lie

@@theoutsiderjess4869 Not having a reason to lie doesn't always mean the person isn't lying. Also for all we know there probably could be a hidden reason or motive left ambiguous to the players.

@@claytonveno3710 Two things: 1) Yes, it's ambiguous who the rat is or even if there was a rat. There isn't a theory where everything makes sense. Every theory has at least 1 hole. And that's how R* intended. 2) The whole idea is that Milton chose you to say that Micah is the rat. It would have made much more sense if Milton didn't say anything about it. He steered the conversation to Micah being the rat. Everybody at the camp thought Molly was, so for them, it was case closed. So Milton telling Micah is the rat out of the blue when he wasn't is just pure chaos since his plan was to capture all of them. So what, Milton tells Arthur that Micah is the rat, then kills or captures Arthur so he wouldn't able to tell anyone?

The Survivor line is a dead giveaway for me. I said the same thing.

@@siimtokke3461 My point is that there isn't any concrete evidence that Milton was telling the full truth about how long Micah Bell's involvement with the Pinkertons stretches back. For all we know he may have been a rat before Guarma or even before the events of the game itself. We simply can't rely soley on Miltons testimoney because he is a clear sociopath with ulterior motives of his own and we don't really solid proof that Micah wasn't a rat before guarma.

Where is the part where the devs confirmed it?

he lied because Sadie was there

@@nyasiamccoy5928 He had no reason to lie, he was going to kill all of them.

@@alphahale7668 if we go with that theory then how did the bank job get compromised , when Milton clearly said he picked up Bell after Guarma ?

@@nyasiamccoy5928 Arthur said it himself at some point. They were making too much noise and getting sloppy. Half of their smaller jobs went to hell because they were being too loud and causing too much trouble. By the time they tried to pull the bank heist, they were wanted in numerous states, the Pinkertons were just a step behind them, they took the Saint Denis police on a chase through the whole city just a while prior when they tried to rob the train station, killed Bronte - the guy pretty much running the city, and now they tried to pull a daylight robbery in the middle of the day in the biggest city full of cops and Pinkertons. They didn't even need anyone to rat them out at that point.

This letters and such I’ve never heard of or seen so thanks for that info.😊

There a couple missions where Micah talks about cutting people loose and late in Chapter 3 he starts planting the seeds of John loyalty.

the only problem with 2 is at the time he was not the rat only after chapter5 he became the rat

The Saint Denis bank robbery is literally the only time in the story Micah wears white.

Milton said that it was after 'Caribbean', meaning after Guarma.

There was more about the suit he wears the polar opposite of Arthur's clothes. Arthur has a black hat Micah has a white hat. Arthur has a blue shirt Micah has a red shirt. In the bank heist Arthur wears a black suit and Micah wears a white suite.

It could be possible that Micah was a rat before the events of guarma since his first big robery with the gang was the boat at Blackwater bc Arthur states in his journel that it could be a trap bc how would the pinkertons exactly know that the gang was in Blackwater and the person who informed Dutch about the boat was Micah

it's not hard to believe the pinkertons just expected a heist to happen in saint denis considering that both a failed trolley station robbery and a shootout at bronte's mansion occurred not far before it, like arthur said they got sloppy and i don't think there needed to be a rat at that point for the pinkertons to find out about their plans

There was Pinkerton at Saint Denis coz Dutch killed Brontë which would have alerted the Pinkertons immediately

@@abdulidris4819 Yup the gang was sloppy, desperate, and not very subtle. Besides chapter 1 and 5 the Pinkertons are on their trail. Even Cornwall found them in Chapter 2.

@@maulressurected4405 yh

Awesome, thank you!😊

Maybe, but I don’t think it makes sense to tell Arthur in an attempt to destroy the relations in the gang. Because Milton has no intention for Arthur to leave in that moment. Milton was going to kill Arthur if Abigail hadn’t shot him first.

EXACTLY! Milton gave them ONE last opportunity in the Bank heist to surrender, when Dutch did his usual plea deal crap it irritated Milton and he killed Hosea. Also if its between Abigail who for all they know is the camp whore (not being mean its just literally what they deem her role as in RDR1 and what they often called women in gangs back then) or the man who was part of gangs leadership and mastermind of the heist. I know me personally I would chase the mastermind. Its also evident they thought of the women that way when Sadie Adler (who is just as vicious and deadly as the men) was looked down upon by the law and other gangs as a "silly girl playing games" when in reality she could easily gun them down.

You're thinking about it from the perspective that you are personally being given information and not that these characters are supposed to be human. It could be something as simple as wanting Arthur to mentally suffer that his gang is screwed and that there's a rat before doming him. "Ha-ha, got you, and your gang is full of rats and you're all dead! Night-night, scumbag!"

@@justanobody1713 Yup that's what I took from that interaction at that point he's won.

Exactly! How would Molly have known? She wasn't around when any of them showed up.

He didn't intend to kill Arthur. He only went to shoot Arthur after Arthur attacked him. He captured the two women and most likely intended to capture Arthur too. It would entice Arthur to talk (maybe) if Arthur thinks other gang members were already ratting. Whether or not Arthur was going to croak "soon" is irrelevant because Arthur was clearly still able to talk. It's a manipulation attempt that costed zero dollars and zero cents for Milton to try.

@@justanobody1713 You literally end that cutscene wrestling for the gun that Milton is slowly aiming towards Arthur's face until he was shot in the side of the head by Abigail. So you think without Abigail present he would get the gun to Arthur's head, convince him to surrender, let him go, all with the expectation that Arthur would return to camp, wrongfully accuse Micah so as to create what? Some disarray and confusion?

@@seansteele6532 Do you not know how to read? You literally end that cutscene with a gun pointed at Arthur's face BECAUSE. ARTHUR. STARTED. THE. PHYSICAL. CONFRONTATION. The discussion about Micah occurred BEFORE THAT. Also, I literally didn't say anything about Milton letting him go and sending him back to camp. I don't know what comment you read, but it wasn't mine you fucking idiot.

@@justanobody1713 We don't know for sure since they already raided the camp to nab Abigail while Tilly escapes with Jack but no mention of Susan. Ross leads the charge during the final standoff which they arrived not very long after Arthur and John arrive.

He was going to try capture arthur, and the only reason he said that micahs the rat is IF arthur managed to escape he would cause the gang to turn on eachother. It's genius really

Nobody else needed to snitch tho. Even Arthur says this in Annesburg. They got “sloppier than the town drunk”. A major theme of the game is the Wild West coming to an end and the “civilized” word encroaching all around them. I think it’s pretty clear Micah actually is the rat, but I think it would have been better to leave it more ambiguous because realistically they really didn’t need a rat at all.

@@BasedR0nin I think he's more then a rat, a opportunist a survivor. He's not going to die for the gang. He would be the kind of person to play all sides, and he wouldn't want to give the Pinkertons Dutch. He needed Dutch because he knew where the Blackwater money was.

Micah needed Dutch. Dutch was the only person who knew where the Blackwater money was. Micah wouldn't just abandon that. 70,000 was a lot of money back then.

I think so too. All Micah was thinking about was turning Dutch in for the reward at first before the Blackwater job knowing he had an old wanted poster targeting Dutch. Then he saw how much Dutch was making robbing banks, especially that $150,000 bank heist in Blackwater and why Micah was so hesitant about the money there even in Valentine. Then as that Blackwater money begins to drift from Micah he starts reaching out to Colm to turn Dutch in for the reward and for Colm to get the heat off his own back and to insure Arthur’s death as well. Then he resorts to the Pinkertons by chapter 4 which would explain how the Pinkertons turn up so quickly at that St Denis bank and why Micah was the only one dress in white while the others are in black, to alert the Pinkertons on who not to shoot.

Its not

Milton meant to kill or arrest Arthur, why would he lie to a man that in his view wouldn't see the gang again.

@@unspun1YThe hated Arthur poking fun at him similar to niko and jimmy niko says to jimmy ur a joke and the commission thinks ur a joke people do that to their enemies when their dien

@@unspun1YT Milton even tries to scare Arthur and the gang literally at the start of the game. He wants them to get worried and restless so they make a move. It's better to divide and conquer than to fight an uphill battle. Thats just my opinion tho.

​@@minikilla3568 except Micah showed signd he was a rat i wouldbt be surprised if Micah went to milton to save his own behind

​@@minikilla3568Arthur is also cold-blooded... your point literally means nothing in regards to Micah

Abigail and Sadie are right there in the room and its not like Milton was whispering to Arthur. He was gloating and rubbing salt in the wound.

I think this is the source of a lot of theorizing. You got this great villain in the middle of this emotive, nuanced story, and they sort of forgot to add his nuance (or rather, its there, but its really really easy to miss). I'll still stand by that even without Micah the gang would have imploded no matter what, the Pinkies were onto them from even before Blackwater

Micah and Arthur both die

He probably died, cuz he ain't that fast with a gun

@@FDav-kl3ww they didn’t immediately start shooting tho

​@@chancellor1055still tho Micah bell is almost quick as Arthur tho if Charles came and Micah bell saw him knowing Micah he would have just pulled out his gun and shot Charles in the head

@@Drexzzz4I meant if he was already in camp when it happened like miss Grimshaw (I don’t know her first name)

You just hate Micah and want him to be the rat.

@@Spawnfreakyou just love Micah too much and doesn’t want him to be the rat

​@Spawnfreak Didn't the (Don't know how to spell the name) vs the Greys kinda prove what that person is saying though?

@@juicebox7372 No that’s just random speculation

Im guessing there has been more than one rat. Milton says micahs been the informant since guarma.