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What Is the Origin of the French and German guttural R - Stephan's Theory 

Loquidity
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Stephan demonstrates and discusses the guttural R, the uvular rhotic used in standard French and German, especially in relationship to other European languages. Existing theories of the origins of this very particular sound are compared with Stephan's own theory of where it may have come from, the alleged Merovingian attempt to sound more like Jesus.
Special thanks to Colin Gorrie for sharing his expertise on linguistics and history on this topic with the public, especially his paper "Adventures of the 'Guttural R'." www.colingorrie.com/articles/...
Thanks to the German Bundeszentrale für politische Bildung (The Federal Agency for Civic Education) for information regarding Jewish history in Germany: www.bpb.de/themen/zeit-kultur...
Some specific information about the Merovingians was gleaned from online entries of the Encyclopedia Britannica.
‪@loquidity4973‬

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10 фев 2023

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Комментарии : 50   
@frb1808
@frb1808 Год назад
Among Romance tongues, Portuguese also has the uvular R, although it is only pronounced when the R is at the beginning of the word or when there are two Rs in succession. In other places, the R is pronounced as an alveolar tap. Spanish shares that distinction, although its trill is an alveolar one, not uvular. In European Portuguese (specifically in central and southern Portugal), the raspy sound is maintained. In Brazil however, it has weakened to a velar fricative or even a pharyngeal approximant. Puerto Rican Spanish distinguishes its Rs in the Portuguese manner as well. Regarding the theories you mentioned, the most probable is that it may just be a Parisian affectation of early modernity, very similar to the origins of the Received Pronunciation in southeastern Britain, where the cities of London, Canterbury, Oxford, and Cambridge are. From there, it spread to other parts of Europe with varying impacts. Let us recall that in European diplomacy, commerce, and high society, where English now is, French before was. Most of Europeans kept their old Rs but many Germans, Danes, and Portuguese got a bad bug of it. The Quebeçois kept the original French R, which is an alveolar trill. Molière also noted that the R of French (of his time, which is the 17th century) creates a sort of earthquake in the mouth, which can only be done if the tongue is to made to vibrate due to turbulence as air is forced through a small opening between the raised tongue tip and the back of the teeth. Germanic R is originally a trill, and it is apparent from the High German of Bavaria, Austria, and Switzerland. The Flemish also roll their Rs, so are the Scots. In most standard dialects of English, it weakened. In Standard German and Standard Danish, it became raspier. Ashkenazi Jews got their Rs most probably from Germans who started rasping their Rs (from whom they learned a Germanic language that became Yiddish). Hebrew R is an alveolar trill, just like in Arabic. Modern Hebrew gets its uvular R from the Ashkenazis who comprise the bulk of the Jewish Israeli population, although other Jews like the Yemenites, Sephardis, and Yemenites maintain the old R. Another language RU-vidr made a similar video, and many of the ideas here originate from her research: ru-vid.com/video/%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BE-DY9MDA4WQzE.html
@loquidity4973
@loquidity4973 Год назад
Thanks for sharing! At least one other viewer has made a similar observation.
@edengolocfc
@edengolocfc 2 месяца назад
In southern Sweden we use the Danish/German/French R sound
@loquidity4973
@loquidity4973 2 месяца назад
Good to know! Thanks for sharing!
@Fritz999
@Fritz999 Год назад
Now a little personal: My parents were born in Essen and they used the R like the French. In the Sauerland (Westfalen) were I grew up, the people used the rolling R. Myself, I used it like the Queen of Britain, when I was speaking German. I had acqaintences from different areas in England who used the R in different ways.
@loquidity4973
@loquidity4973 Год назад
So I wonder if Germans in more rural areas were more likely to roll their Rs than people in more urban areas. Any ideas?
@Fritz999
@Fritz999 Год назад
@@loquidity4973 Yes, I think so. Living where people still speak Fränkisch, there too they do, but a milder form. Then we have the Schwarzwald rolling, the Oberschlesier and Schlesier rolling, plus all you mentioned. Not to forget Austrians and Swiss. Yes I have to think that pretty well most rural areas roll their R's.
@loquidity4973
@loquidity4973 Год назад
@@Fritz999 … which kind of confirms my theory that the uvulae R was initially used by the well connected elites. Thanks for your thoughts on that!
@Fritz999
@Fritz999 Год назад
@@loquidity4973 The areas in England, where there is a clear Saxon history, and in the country side, the R is usually rolled as well. Such I noticed when speaking with such Englishmen.
@loquidity4973
@loquidity4973 Год назад
@@Fritz999 Thanks for sharing! I wonder if Scottish Gaelic has a rolled R. I know that many lowland Scots roll their Rs, and they are to a large dregree descendants of Anglo-Saxons and Scandinavians.
@eb4661
@eb4661 Месяц назад
In Norway, the city of Bergen is the local center of the “guttural r”. It is known to have spread, even in modern time (last 50 years) more and more. Today this R is used around Bergen and Stavanger, and the western coast. Its origins are debated: Our local professor of linguistics states it developed from the French upper classes and is believed to be a speaking error of some noble man or men in the late 1780s or just into 1800. The claim is it spread from the top of society downwards. With regards to Norway, Bergen have for more than a thousand years been the most international city and heavily influenced by especially Germany, but also England, France, Netherlands and Portugal. (Scotland is more like local waters.) So, our local authority on the question says the city dialects of Bergen commonly used it from approximately 1850. To me, this didn’t sound right, as I would believe it went back to Hanseatic times, when Germans had a major grip of main harbours in Northern Europe. However, being a living witness to how fast languages changes - diminishing local dialects in greater and greater areas in proximity to “guttural R”, how English/American influenced young people of today are, and the fact London (also influenced by seafarers and Hanseatic) didn’t adopt it, I have to say it is extremely likely this guttural R came about somewhere around the time of the French revolution.
@loquidity4973
@loquidity4973 Месяц назад
Fascinating theories! Thanks for sharing! Northern German dialects tend to have a rolling or trilling R, so I find your theory of the French connection a little more convincing than the Hanseatic one. It's fun to chew the cud on this one, isn't it?
@eb4661
@eb4661 Месяц назад
It is both fascinating and somewhat scary, how in general changes of languages spreads. I find it overwhelming likely the spread of the guttural R was a phenomena of sociolect, peers and what those eager to be peers adopts unconsciously. As long as it is funded on growth on what one may find positive for society, it is ok it spreads. However, it is scary witnessing languages of inferior cultures spreading from the bottom of society based on fear, admiration of violent powers and a total lack of understanding of what “respect” means and normally is acquired. If the above is correct, it should follow that language/sociolect is both a measure of how developed a society is, and a predictive measure of likelihood of success in life. And it is, as I see it. BBC have now programs in pidgin-english, pretending such a dysfunctional cultured language is of value to keep, maintain and develop. Many kids in Oslo speaks Kebab-Norwegian, and claims to be proud of it. “Nigga” is claimed in “black cultures” to mean friend. Stating “fuck” in every sentence, “you’re know”. Etc. etc. Surely, any and all of those aiming low in language will never reach top in large corporations or organizations. (Except a single handful in for instance music industry, riding on the poor they truly exploit selling them ideas that nothing good grows from.) My boy of 12 is fairly good in English, mainly due to internet and interests. He regularly transforms words of English into Norwegian, sounding a bit archaic - especially since the equivalent of those transformed words are available in Norwegian. His friends does the same. Having him reading all books of Henrik Ibsen may do some counter-balancing, but I’m not sure this change in language that is likely on it’s way is harmful. Perhaps it is for the better. It is moving fast though!
@loquidity4973
@loquidity4973 Месяц назад
@@eb4661 Change is always scary. And I think all changes carry both good and bad with them. “Low culture speech” has always had its place and function. People just need to understand the big picture to make informed decisions for themselves.
@seorsamaclately4294
@seorsamaclately4294 Год назад
When I read the video's title, my first association was: the Franks. The Scots also refer to English people as Sassenachs (Saxons).
@loquidity4973
@loquidity4973 Год назад
Oh, do they!? I am sure they also have a few other expressions for the English . . . ;-)
@cardenova
@cardenova Год назад
I like this theory. Legitimacy was always taken seriously among the nobility of Medieval Europe. I never realized the similarity (and possible connection) between the French/German R and Hebrew’s uvular consonant (“Chet” according to wikipedia). As for the religious branding of the Merovingians, well that is definitely possible, if not likely. The Hapsburgs and many other dynasties often did style themselves as distant descendants of Jesus, who of course was born Jewish. I know the Old Testament was written in Hebrew too. I’m not sure I understand the Ashkenazi part you mention however. I’m not Jewish and don’t really understand the distinctions between Jewish groups, I always thought they were primarily geographical; so if you’re implying that their recent settlement influx helped inspire the idea through language contact then I think I understand, though I’ll admit I’m less sure about. Super interesting theory nonetheless, one that ultimately is, at least so far, the most convincing one to me, especially in regards to French. It’s worth noting that Francia and the H.R.E. (Medieval Germany) were seen as the center of both power and Christianity for many centuries; so it’d make sense that any usurping force would want to adopt this feature. One correction: European Portuguese use the uvular R too, though that’s been theorized to come from French anyway.
@loquidity4973
@loquidity4973 Год назад
Thank you for your commentary and encouraging words! As I said, it's merely a theory, and an evolving one, as I gather feedback from viewers like you. 🙂
@cardenova
@cardenova Год назад
@@loquidity4973 Of course! You explained it very well too! Glad I came across the video.
@loquidity4973
@loquidity4973 Год назад
@@cardenova Thanks for watching! I hope there are a few others that might be of interest to you.
@theoderich1168
@theoderich1168 Год назад
Hallo Stephan, da ist ja das angekündigte Video, vielen Dank dafür !!! Interessante Theorie.... 2 Dinge fielen mir spontan dazu ein: Kannten / kennen Juden ein gutturales "R" ? oder haben die Merowinger vielleicht ein "ch" abgewandelt ? Interessanterweise kennen die südlichen und nordwestlichen Nachbarn, also die am Rheinfall und die an der Nordsee, beide diesen harten Kehllaut "CH" (merkwürdige Analogie 🤨😉) Und auf der anderen Seite fällt es mir schwer vorzustellen, daß Erwachsene sich einen bis dato unbekannten und ungewohnten Laut/Ton aneignen, den sie vielleicht nur schwer aussprechen können. Sprache wird ja eher mit der Muttermilch aufgesogen und ich fände es eher natürlich, wenn in einem bestimmten geographischen Raum Menschen gleichartige, ihnen ganz eigene Arten des Ausdrucks entwickeln; schließlich ist Sprache unmittelbarer Ausdruck der Seele. Übrigens eint und verbindet die BeNeLux-Länder, das östliche Frankreich und das westliche Deutschland eine uralte Tradition: der Bergbau, der hier immer sehr intensiv betrieben wurde und auch einen bestimmten "Menschenschlag" hervorbringt.
@loquidity4973
@loquidity4973 Год назад
Vielen Dank für die Erläuterungen, vor allem in Bezug des Menschenschlags. Das wären wohl die Menschen im alten Reich des Lothars, einer der drei Enkeln vom Karl der Grosse. In Bezug auf Kindererziehung der Merowinger kann man sich ohne weiteres vorstellen, dass da auch jüdische Erzieher und Ratgeber auch eingestellt wurden um der nächsten Generation eine umfassene Bildung zu gönnen. Danke schön! 🙂
Год назад
In Portuguese there's both
@loquidity4973
@loquidity4973 Год назад
Both of what? The uvular R and the rolling R?
Год назад
@@loquidity4973 Yes. I think the uvular comes where in Spanish it's double, like when it's rr or in the beginning and ending of words if I'm not mistaken
@loquidity4973
@loquidity4973 Год назад
@ In Spanish the double RR is still a rolling R formed by the tongue against the upper palate and the vibrations caused by the air forced in between.
@cardenova
@cardenova Год назад
@@loquidity4973 He’s explaining how it differs from Spanish in that wherever there a trilled R in Spanish (as you explained), a guttural R in Portuguese is used instead, as a rule of thumb. There’s no trilled R in the language, not even in Portugal, Brazil, Angola, etc. BUT in some dialects, a uvular “tap” is sometimes used for the letter depending on where it is, which is unlike French, where (I believe) the guttural version is used almost exclusively for all Rs regardless of position.
@Fritz999
@Fritz999 Год назад
Come to think of it, when I first came to Canada, in the early 1950s, there were still Yiddish speaking people around and I heard quite a bit of it. I don't remember any heavy R rolling.
@loquidity4973
@loquidity4973 Год назад
Yiddish, French and German all use the uvular R. The question is whether the Ashkenazi Jews already used it before they came to Europe or whether they adopted it.
@Justen1980
@Justen1980 Год назад
It's interesting to me how the popular regal names Charles and Louis came from so many variants of this era. Carolus Magnus & Clovis (Latin), Karl der Große, Chlodwig-> Ludwig (Germanic), Charlemagne & Louis (French). Clovis was the grandson of Merovech, I believe.
@loquidity4973
@loquidity4973 Год назад
Yes, and it raises the question of these names' origins, too, doesn't it. For instance, "Ludwig" appears to be a Germanic name, but I always wondered if the "Lud" part may be a derivation of the Latin word "lux" (light). Perhaps it was a nod to both the Germanic (Chlod-) and Roman (Lux-) influences on Frankish society. What's in a name, right? ;-) Thanks for your contribution, Justen! 🙂
@Justen1980
@Justen1980 Год назад
@@loquidity4973 Very interesting! I always assumed the initial Ch- sound went silent along with half the alphabet when the Franks decided to utter Latin! I've seen a few "explanations" for certain historical linguistic developments such as the modern day lisp sound of Spanish coming from their King's speech hundreds of years ago. And the famous English -ing ending originating from the renaissance royal court scribes penchant to replace the germanic -end.
@loquidity4973
@loquidity4973 Год назад
@@Justen1980 Thanks for your excellent elaborations and examples! I was not aware of these things. 🙂
@dinocat8
@dinocat8 Год назад
Hallo! Das ist eine gut durchdachte Theorie! Mir hat das Video sehr gut gefallen, besonders wegen alle Aussprachebeispiele. Bayerische Dialekten klingen ganz anders als "standard" Dialekt, den wir in Schulen im Ausland lernen. Bitte erläutern Sie den "Franks" Zusammenhang. 🤔 Entschuldigung für irgendwelche Fehler. Dachte, ich könnte doch ein bisschen schreiben auf Deutsch üben, denn habe ich nur selten die Gelegenheit dazu.
@loquidity4973
@loquidity4973 Год назад
Danke schön für die gelungene Antwort auf deutsch, Dinocat! Und ich bedanke mich auch für die positive Reaktion zu meinem Video! Das hat mich sehr gefreut. Vor allem im Amerikanischen English wird das Wort "franks" in Bezug auf "sausages" oder "Würste" benutzt. Das kommt von den "Frankfurter" her, also von den Würsten wie sie in Frankfurt beliebt sind. Und Frankfurt ist natürlich nach den Franken benannt. Das war einmal ein Ort wo die Franken den Fluss Main überquerrt haben, wahrscheinlich an einer breiten und relativ seichten Stelle. In English, just in case: In American English especially, "franks" refers primarily to a type of sausage, based on the German "frankfurters," or "Frankfurter," a type of sausage popular in the Frankfurt region. The city of Frankfurt literally means "Franks' ford," where the Franks forded over or somehow crossed the river Main, where Frankfurt is located. So, the word "franks" lends itself to silly wordplay. Thanks! Danke!
@dinocat8
@dinocat8 Год назад
@@loquidity4973 Vielen Dank für die Erklärung! Ich habe heute etwas auf Englisch gelernt -- "franks" bedeuten Würste! Ich wusste, dass es eine Wurst auf Deutsch war, aber mir war nicht klar, es war das gleiche in Englisch. Und danke für die Übersetzung, es hat mir wirklich geholfen!
@loquidity4973
@loquidity4973 Год назад
@@dinocat8 Bitte schön! 🙂
@yannschonfeld5847
@yannschonfeld5847 Год назад
Hello Stephan. As for the guttural or the phonème /r/ en français (uvular r) comes from the Frankish invasions after the fall of the Roman Empire. If one follows the regions wihere the rhotic /r/ remains (at least for the generation born late 19th century or early 20th century when the French educational system had less influence on the populations, that map follows fairly closely those Frankish invasions and influence. I know in Brittany even where French took over from Breton that has rhotic /r/, in eastern Brittany from the middle ages, the rhotic /r/ remained. The same in south western France to say nothing of Catalan dialects still spoken in southern France. Your theory is upheld in most linguistic circles in France. I noticed it myself having traveled in France over 35 years and spoken with my university professors on this subject. When I first started learning Breton on small farms over 40 years ago, I had to notice how much the rhotic /r/sounded like West Country English (the last Keltic regions to fall to the English and so kept their linguistic habits) or even to certain North American dialects where many of the first settlers came from the West Country or Scotland and later Ireland to say nothing of Wales. As for the Ashkenazi influence, it would appear to be the other way round. Historically, be it Hebrew or Aramaic would sound more closely to modern Arabic. The Jews who settled in these Germanic speaking regions adopted the uvular /r/ especially in Yiddish. The Jews post world war two who survived the Shoah perpetuate the uvular /r/ in modern Israel and the Sephardi or Mizrahi Jews who came from outside Western Europe speak with the rhotic /r/. A very interesting topic and the Merovingian connection would appear to be the best explanation to this observation where ancient Gaul and ancient Germanic regions came under the sway of those leaders, especially Clovis who founded this dynasty. Vielen dank Stephan!
@loquidity4973
@loquidity4973 Год назад
Thank you so much for the explanations, elaborations, and clarifications! I have often wondered about the mixing of Celtic and Germanic cultures in late antiquity and the early medieval period. So, the original Hebrew R would not be a uvular rhotic then? That's my mistake! Thank you, Yann!
@yannschonfeld5847
@yannschonfeld5847 Год назад
@@loquidity4973 Hello again Stephan, when one hears Israelis speaking Hebrew it gives an impression that this is how it should be pronounced. It's a fair assumption to my mind. Their grandparents or parents probably spoke Yiddish and this was transferred into modern Hebrew. I feel sorry for the Israeli Arabs who speak Hebrew when many of the words in Arabic are the same and so if they pronounced them as in Arabic, it would be historically more correct.
@loquidity4973
@loquidity4973 Год назад
@@yannschonfeld5847 Good point! My understanding of modern Hebrew as it is spoken in the modern state of Israel is that it is actually a recreation of classic Hebrew, mostly based on religious usage of ancient texts as well as some oral traditions that survived. I do believe that Aramaic (most likely the language that the historic Jesus spoke) did survive in the Middle East, too, but it probably evolved quite a bit over the last two millennia. I really need to educate myself more on the languages of that region, which is so fascinating and has had such immense influences on European and the World's cultures.
Год назад
Hmmmm
@loquidity4973
@loquidity4973 Год назад
Could you please elaborate?
Год назад
@@loquidity4973lol interesting theory. Now I'm thinking about it
@loquidity4973
@loquidity4973 Год назад
@ I would love to hear more of your thoughts about it. It‘s just my theory. I want to hear what others are thinking.
@artvandelay8830
@artvandelay8830 Месяц назад
But it's a modern fashion. It can't be Merovingian.
@loquidity4973
@loquidity4973 Месяц назад
Are you certain?
@artvandelay8830
@artvandelay8830 27 дней назад
@@loquidity4973 There's a Frenchman describing 1650's phonetics, who states so, in a book.
@loquidity4973
@loquidity4973 27 дней назад
@@artvandelay8830 Ok, so that's one source of information. Even assuming that this gentleman was sincere and thorough in his methods, it is not exactly proof. But, thank you for sharing. It is definitely important evidence. All I am saying that multiple possibilities are still on the table. Just my opinion.
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