Frankly a full scale Warcraft-Warhammer crossover where portals between the worlds start being opened would be FASCINATING. Whether it's wc3 lore, or WoW lore, either current WoW lore or WoW lore at a previous point of development. Just IMAGINE the sort of interactions that would occur, not only between mortal races, but between the warp and the supernatural entities of Warcraft? The REAL question is how interactions would go between the higher forces in Warcraft either wc3 or WoW, and the Ruinous Powers. In wc3 I think it comes down to the Burning Legion, lead by Sargeras, or the Titans. No one else comes close to them in power. Sargeras in wc3 lore might actually help the Chaos Gods. He's... kinda hell-bent on destroying the universe, and the Chaos gods really seem to want to do that too. Sargeras would be a far, far more enticing champion of Chaos Undivided than Archaon. Far more powerful and far smarter on his own, and the Burning Legion would love the Warp, which is essentially the Twisting Nether, but created through the collective minds of mortal souls. Meanwhile, the rest of the Titans would most likely work against that with every fiber of their being, being entities that seem to like bringing order and peace to the universe... In WoW pretty much NONE of the gods of the big six universal forces would be willing to work with the Dark Gods, I am pretty sure. This includes Sargeras since WoW Sargeras actually only wants to destroy all LIFE in the mortal universe, and wants to keep reality and an orderly universe intact. Frankly, Sargeras would probably see the Warp as no better than the Void. The rest of the Burning Legion and other denizens of the Twisting Nether however.... they might be down to bring the Warp into the universe. I suspect the Void would be a terrible threat to the Ruinous powers. The Void Lords' realm and its denizens consumes everything, and the mental capabilities of the Void Lords has been both stated and demonstrated to be infinite.... I fear the Void would consume the Warp, like 40k's Tyranid Hivemind, but worse, because the Void Lords don't simply have a feral cunning... they are basically Tzeentch, with a bigger appetite. All-consuming darkness and negativity, with infinite knowledge of all possible futures. The rest of the pantheons (of Light, Order, Life, and Death) would probably avoid having anything to do with Warp. They have a good thing going and are smarter than to trust or dabble in the destabilizing influence of the Warp.
@@hardlyheroic114 I can think of no other reasonable way to do so, short of like.... some weird reality bending where somehow Azeroth and Mallus become one planet with all the land masses of Azeroth and the Maelstorm ending up located in the Far Ocean of Mallus ... except that doesn't really account for how two different magic systems can exist independently. Giant portals that allow magic systems to spill through to a degree seem the only option.
Alliance wins as a stomp. The empire may have Faith, Steel and Gunpowder. But the Alliance has, Faith, Steel, Gunpowder, Magic, Demons, Elfs, Void, Undead, Pandas and Murlocs. Also meanwhile the Empire ahs to deal with the Warp when casting spells. Alliance only needs MANA.
Wows alliance is a bit cartoonishly over the top (especially once we get into later wow expansions) compared to the relatively (emphasis on relatively) grounded empire. So its like saying a looney toons character would be another character because cartoon characters have massively powerful feats for the sake of comedy.
Oho, an interesting video concept! Hmm, now, I'm a big Warhammer fan, so obviously I'm biased towards the Empire, but I do think they probably take the hypothetical cake here. Let me do my own breakdown from memory, before watching the video and see if we match up on anything: ARTILLERY: I think this is the area the Empire dominates the most in - the Alliance only seems to have the Dwarf Mortar, which due to being small and portable must surely have a shorter range and inferior firepower compared to Imperial Mortars. They also have no equivalent or equal to the other Imperial Artillery, such as Great Cannons or Volley Guns. RANGED INFANTRY: The Alliance's use of gunpowder seems a bit weird - the Dwarf rifleman uses what appears to be a Blunderbuss, but is actually the "Blunderbuss Long Rifle". This is a very confusing name, kind of like "Shotgun-class Rifle", but given that they are described as "excellent sharpshooters" I have to ultimately conclude that they are in fact long-range shooters, and could probably rival Imperial Handgunners, possibly beating them due to superior Dwarven skill. I'd say this is a toss-up. However, they don't have a good answer to Imperial skirmishers and mobile shooting units such as Hunters and Outriders. CAVALRY: The Alliance's Knights of Lordaeron are pretty interesting. They seem pretty much on par with Imperial Knightly Orders, though interestingly they seem to rely mostly on greatswords instead of lances in order to fight. I'd say this makes them very comparable to Knights of the White Wolf. These weapons would give them the edge over Imperial Knights in protracted fights, but would make them less devastating on the charge. Demigryph Knights, however, are completely unparalleled in the Alliance's roster and would prove very difficult to stop. The Alliance does have Gryphon Riders, but these are flying, light missile cavalry that absolutely cannot take a charge and fulfil a very different role to the Demigryph. Light Cavalry is a toss-up, with Outriders and Pistoliers vs the Alliance's flying Gryphon Riders. BASIC INFANTRY: This is where I'd give the Alliance a serious edge. The basic Footman is far better equipped than an Imperial State Trooper, featuring heavy armour and shields (though Wowpedia specifically claims that they DO NOT have Plate Armor, so that leaves us assuming that their protection is roughly equivalent to a 4+ save in Warhammer). They are also described by Wowpedia as a volunteer force who have risen to the occasion to defend their homeland, which means their morale is likely very high - they aren't conscripts, they are here because they have chosen to fight for something they believe in. They are described as "lacking in specialised training", but this is only in comparison to Alliance infantry of the past. Their shields are also potent enough that they reduce pierce damage (such as from bullets) by two thirds when focussing solely on defence, which indicates that they're spectacularly resilient to firepower (maybe a Ward Save against shooting?). The only thing I could perhaps fault them on is that, being a volunteer force, they might not be able to muster as many of them as the Empire can muster State Troops, although the people of Lordaeron seem to be very willing to volunteer, so this may not be a problem after all. ELITE INFANTRY: The Alliance probably also wins here, because the Spell Breaker is a fantastic unit. It features heavy armour, a massive shield, and incredibly, a COMPLETE IMMUNITY to magic of all kinds, as well as the ability to redirect magical energies, stealing enemy buffs and transferring debuffs over to the enemy. They can even steal control over summoned units! Man, the Empire could really use some of these guys against Chaos! Obviously, there's no way to tell how magic in the two settings compares, but if total immunity to Warhammer magic is possible, that changes everything. NOTHING in Warhammer is completely immune to magic, and the possibility that these guys could royally screw up Battle Wizards makes the Imperial general very nervous. Then again, Warhammer magic is consistently shown to be much more devastating than Warcraft magic, so it's possible that Spellbreakers just have Magic Resistance instead. Empire Greatswords hit harder, but the Spellbreaker simply has such immense potential to be a gamechanger that I have to give it to the Alliance here. MAGIC: Now this is an interesting one. The Alliance has far more casters (Priests and Sorceresses are basic support units) but their powers are much lower-level than Warhammer casters, being simple buffs, debuffs, and heals. The Archmage does have superior magic, but even then they don't exactly blow you away with their power - they can summon Water Elementals, do some minor AOE damage, etc. Mass Teleport could be used in some interesting tactical moves, but still, none of this stands up to the kind of ludicrous firepower that Battle Wizards can bring to the table. Bright Wizards can incinerate whole regiments, Celestial Wizards can buff entire units at once and call down devastating comets, Gold Wizards can turn the Footman's powerful armor against them, etc. The Empire has both more powerful and more diverse magic than the Alliance, with the only potential spoiler being whether or not Spellbreakers are as powerful against them as they are against Warcraft magic. I'd say the Empire wins this point. LEADERSHIP: This is an interesting one, as both the WC3 Alliance and the Empire are lead by experienced elder statesmen that are deeply respected by their peers and have brought about Golden Ages. Terenas Menethil is a very skilled diplomat, but I don't think there's any evidence that he's a superlative general on the level of someone like Karl Franz. Uther Lightbringer is experienced and can probably inspire the men like Karl can, but there's no evidence that he's unusually skilled at leadership. Meanwhile, Prince Arthas is earnest but very impulsive and easily fooled; I can't see him beating most Empire Generals.
Footmen are heavily armoured and shielded as standard, but looking at it from a less gameplay and more lore, logistics and physics-based perspective, I think Empire troops would actually be advantaged in the basic infantry comparison. Full plate is quite expensive compared to the standard Empire soldiers' protection that typically consists of a breastplate, helmet and textile armour at best, so assuming equal military budget, the Empire troops would have the numbers advantage. And while there are units of Empire Swordsmen, the Spearmen and Halberdiers are usually more common, and those units have a distinct reach advantage, with halberds being especially useful against armoured opponents. The longer spears and halberds would enable Empire soldiers to strike first as the formations get within melee distance, and it would allow more ranks behind the first to strike at the Alliance Footmen, meaning more spears that could potentially go around their shields and into the gaps in their armour, or halberds that can strike over or hook their shields away, and while those axe heads are no maces, they can still potentially apply a good amount of blunt force trauma, especially if they hit the helmet.
Interesting points. I think the basic state troops are efficient enough for their cost whereas the basic footman is largely way too expensive for what they are. The basic, unarmoured orc, is better than the footman which tells me that it's a problem for them actually being effective.
@@hardlyheroic114 oh God, don't tell me you used point cost to determine Lore strength...you're whole video is a massive waste of time if so. Throw it all away and start completely over...
Sorry, not gonna watch, in my head the matter is so clear there's no need to dig deeper. Warcraft is super high fantasy, fairytale-like medieval world with relatively small population, Empire is giant and way more resourceful in comparison. Just the fact that Warcraft is made as a world to adventure in or to tell a story while WH is made to have armies and civilisations clash should be enough of an indicator. Of course WoW power levels are all over the place even without playable characters so it can always be argued that Warcraft named characters would just wipe the floor with everyone but then the whole discussion gets pointless.
If you’re still checking comments, could you do warriors of chaos (around the end times) vs the horde at its peak? (If it’s had one. Not much of a Warcraft expert myself.)
Based on my knowledge, that would either be some time before warcraft 3 or after warcraft 3. Personally, I think that the warriors of chaos would beat pretty much anyone at their peak, but that's an interesting suggestion. Thanks!
Ok hear me out, the proportions and body sizes of foomen in Warcraft are similar to the Nosrcans and Kislevites in Warhammer, they wear similar bulky armour and oversized swords. I'd put the warcraft footmen alone at the same danger level of chaos warriors if not chosen yet they fight with the apparent discipline of state troops of not better.
Actually the siege engine is the exact same as a steam tank, heavily armored, frontline artillery vehicle powered by steam and therefore no horses. It's just that the empire has 9 of them and alliance dwarves can make as many as they want to. Also remember Alliance is not just lordaeron (one human kingdom), it is also Quel'thalas (high elves, comparable to asur if not as powerful), two dwarven kingdoms, and also a few other human kingdoms, and they have a history of war, the two orc wars for instance But if we just look at Lordaeron, it has SEVERAL paladins, the equivalent of sigmarite warrior priests, except last I checked warrior priests can't bring groups of dead soldiers back to life mid battle, or surround themselves with unbreakable magical shields for extended periods of time. Seriously, what is the counter to a formation of 20 guys in plate armor with twohanded warhammers surrounded by unbreakable shields casually slaughtering an entire unit of soldiers, especcially if you don't know these have a timer.
Quel'thalas is not... REALLY part of the Alliance. They are on friendly terms, and many High Elves do fight in Alliance armies thanks to Dalaran being a kingdom of both humans and elves, you can't really count on Quel'thalas to commit a ton of its resources to fight for the Alliance. The Dwarves and to a lesser degree the Gnomes can be counted on though. Very staunch allies. In WoW Quel'thalas is outright HOSTILE to the Alliance. High elf assistance is scarce as their population is small. A fraction of a fraction of the former High Elf population. But you do have Night Elves!
On a technical note, while the Empire cannot make more steam tanks, they can make the next best thing,the Landship. These are sailing ships on wheels used as tanks, which were originally intended for use by Marienburg. However when Tamurkhan attacked Wissenland during Throne of Chaos Campaign they were appropriated by the Empire.
In my Opinion Warcraft3 ( not WOW) has the most similar lore/setting/ambient to the Warhammer universe. And you can literally feel and see many elements of warhammer in WC3( especially the reign of chaos, proving the point that WC supposed to be Warhammer but due to disagreement with GW over license, WC developers abandoned Warhammer lore and modified multiple factions and lore to be a distinct game. Playing WC3 i couldn't ignore similarities between these two lores. WC3 has : demon chaos, Undead, green orcs, dwarves, cannons, muskets, look at the foot man armor , paladins of the light ( doesn't that ring any bell), high elf, night elf, look at the buildings and how similar they are to warhammer, ogre, goblins....
It's pretty easy. Alliance has less numbers but are much more powerful. Mages, Paladins, Rogues, Warriors of Legend are all insane. Like Dalaran alone is prolly as strong as the High elven Archmage Council. High Elfs + Dwarves + Gnomes + Lordaeron + Minor Human Kingdoms clap the Empire imho. Tanks, Mages, Ressurecting Paladins, Teleporting Rogues to backstab heavy hitters with similar power level to Warhammer Vampires. Also the Alliance just has Artillery like Cannons aswell, used in even the first war already.
I recommend Eternal strife warhammer custom map for WC3 frozen throne. It is not as good as totalwar warhammer but it is ok and you have more control over your individual units. And its economy is direct wood and gold with Food supply system like warcraft3.
Basically the empire would be fighting not only a more prosperous version of itself but Dwarves, Gnomes with mech suits, a nation of werewolves, wood elves, aliens with space ships, elves who can use powers of Cthulhu like beings, and have tech the rivals the skaven’s stuff including tanks, a long with a lot of powerful mages and warlocks so yeah warhammer fantasy’s empire is going to have a bad time fighting the alliance even the forces of chaos during the end times will get smacked around by wow’s alliance
Ok so if it’s the Alliance of Lordaeron then it’s more even. In terms of technology they are about even but magic the alliance has them beat. Warcraft magic is as powerful in some cases and more in other cases than warhammer magic and is way more reliable as well meaning you are going to have guys throwing fire balls, summon ice storms and all sorts of stuff at the empire way more often then the empire can respond with. Then there is the paladins who can both heal their allies and smite their foes as well. Ultimately here I think the alliance would be able to push the empire back but not conquer it. But going by gameplay for Warcraft to judge how they fight is a bit disingenuous. The siege of Lordaeron cinematic for BFA showed the Alliance using a lot more tactics typical of fantasy armies but also showed footmen using spears and shields rather than swords. So for lore wise the battles in Warcraft are far larger in scale that would be difficult to put into a RTS at the time
The difference between Warhammer and Warcraft's warmachines, is that if you implement physics, Imperial steamtanks might fall apart, but _every_ warcraft machine also falls to pieces. Empire will still have its cannons, mortars, hellblasters and rockets.
I mean empire has steady supply of artillery, gunpowder and even some tanks and while alliance has some technologically adapt races; logistically id question their supply of sufficent long range combatants so most battles would be Knights and other medival armies occationally supported by gnome tech against Knights supported by weapons of Mass destruction meaning overall victory for empire. Tho magic is something of a equalizer think warhammer magic takes the cake too as magic in that setting is used to do battlefield changing spells, while warcraft is more small scale, even if more numerous.
I disagree in literally every single statement. The Alliance has many more tanks then the empire. They have artillery aswell. LIterally mass producable magic armor for footsoldiers supported by several magic/light users. Also mass destruction magic is something that alot of warcraft mages are capable of. We know Dalaran can basically nuke a Country if they have to. The only thing Warhammer has is numbers, they are inferior in almost everything, especially if you count the Warcraft heroes. Cause they scale to ridicoulous achievements.
@@daddymasamune5485 but aint artillery and tanks mainly whit gnomish and dwarven forces, whit each race having their own military streangth and production? While the empire has more balanced/regulated armies as per their gear, thats a serious logistical advantage and as they say ”amaterurs talk tactics, experts talk logistics”. My thought was as follows: if empire were to invade azeroth their logistics would gurantee adaptability to whatever force they would face be it artillery versus elfs that rely on skirmish tactics and humans that have their stregth in large medival armies and fortifications. While more advanced dwarws could be beaten whit mobility and cutting of supply lines, as for mages mobility and suppressing bombardment would work wonders i think. Gnomes would be greatest threath, what whit their tech, meaning it would inevetably turn into war of attrition. As for azeroth invading empire initial assault would inevetably be highly sucesfull, but only as long as army would be able to stay together and compansate each races tactics whit anothers, but if each army would have their own commanders divisions would ultimatly create same logistical weaknesses that empire could exploit, tho if command structure were to be unified under competent commander they’d have a chance at winning. While i am more awere of warhammer mythos i have to admit my knowlege of warcraft goes skin deep and therefore must admit i May have gotten some things wrong about azeroths production technology and logistics in which case i admid im brobably wrong. As for heroes, while undoubtedly useful as special forces, would require a clarification on rules pertaining to realities of warware, as combat is a hectic matter where no matter how strong or agile one is a single unlucky projectile or swing of a sword can pierce/cut a heros neck, or give that nasty splinter that lets the disease in, turning Black in a couple of days and leading to necrosis. After all Alexander the Great, in all his greatness ingloriously croaked on some wine/poison/tropical disease.
@@ns7495 the alliance tends to fight in combined forces. The only ones who don’t are the night elves. But gnomes, dwarves,worgen and humans tend to fight together. If we are going by the modern alliance every human soldier basically gets a rifle along with their plate armor with the the humans also having their own tanks which are basically towers with treads and massive cannons on them with Siege towers having cannons and ballistas. Then there is the gunships which are basically flying navy ships that would lay waste to the empire’s formations. Then there are the mages like Jania Proudmoore who could drown the entire empire’s army in a tsunami she made (which she almost did this to the horde’s capital before thrall talked her down) so basically the empire is dealing with a army that has it’s basic infantry equipped like their elite units, have technology that rivals the skaven and magic that is 100 times more reliable. That’s not including the warlocks, death knight, void elves etc. that would make the empire have even more bad days
@@shadewolf0075 ah my mistake then, yeah if they have combined military structure my hyphothesis was completly off, thanks for replying and apologies on my faulty thesis.
@@ns7495 Well, if you put it that way the Warhammer Empire army would crumble really fast after loosing a lot of their heads. As soon as most of the Instructors/Captains/Marshalls would die off due to the SI7 or similar units, their great logs don't work anymore. I think it's a bonus that the Alliance doesn't rely on it so much, cause they can act much more freely. It's really about if they can field a huge field warfare or not. In Azeroth there are too many chokepoints for that, and in the Empire its too wast to enforce it. Hence I would give it to the Alliance no doubt. But it's all due to the hero characters, which are bonkers in comparison to Empire Lore characters which prolly are part of the weakest in the entire Fantasy Lore.
In my honest opinion pitting the alliance of stormwind against just the empire shows just how over the top warhammer fantasy is. Because if we throw in the dwarves, high elves and Bretonnia, I highly doubt the Alliance wins
I think the problem is getting all of those groups to work together. Bretonnia, High Elves, Dwarves are willing to work together but their level of cohesion with the empire is generally lower I think.
@@hardlyheroic114 they seem to work well enough together when there is a bigger threat such as chaos. But either way, if those warhammer factions work together, it is absolutely over for the Alliance
@@hardlyheroic114 they seem to work well enough together when there is a bigger threat such as chaos. But either way, if those warhammer factions work together, it is absolutely over for the Alliance
Posing any fantasy faction against the Alliance is a funny ordeal, because eventually, Alliance gets it's own Omniman. If you were to include WoW into your calculations and not just Warcraft you would have to account for the Aliance's part of Heroes of Azeroth (player characters). It sounds silly but they ARE part of the lore by now. They pose an interesting dilema for the Empire as there's nothing you can really do to opose them in a head to head confrontation. Heroes of Azeroth are neigh unkillable warriors with world-destroying deity-like creatures mounted above their fireplaces. They are versatile, some being straightforward (though extremily devastating) meat beaters, but many also posessing supremely powerful magic, of arcane and divine nature. Perhaps if they were to just stand still in a field and let the Empire beat on them, then yes, an imperial army definitely could whittle them down, but why would they? They would run circles around most armies only attacking them when and where it hurts the most, and easily demolishing any fast strike-group the Empire sends after them. Because Billy the Witch Hunter and Sir Longshlong the Gryphon Knight might be very impressive combatants in their own right, but they definitley compare poorly to Deathwing the natural-disaster-causing ancient dragon, who the HoAs already slaughtered. There's at the very least 20 of them as 20 is the ammount of players required for a mythic raid, but there is probably more seeing as there at some point were 40 player raids. Plus all the baby HoAs that didn't kill Kil'Jaeden and the Lich King but definitely achieved the in-universe power level of a high level character, that may be running around. In a defensive scenario and an offensive scenario, they would use their high mobility (most of them have access to flight in one way or another) and absurd power to behead the Empire, by T-posing through their defenses to slaughter their leadership and leave before enough bodies could be thrown at them. That would leave armies of The Empire disorganized, perhaps even demoralized, open for Alliance's actual army to come in and mop them up. A field battle with the HoA's would be less one-sided, as all of the bodies which are to be thrown at them are all right there. But the Imperial General would still have to use some proper trickery to not allow themselves and their artillery to get immediately murdered. But unlike a full scale war, a single battle against the Alliance armed with the HoAs is definitely winnable, as they, while supremely powerful, are still succeptable to being struck down with giant cannon balls and wittled down with numbers. Not that they would allow that to happen, not easily at the very least. Some might say "Oh, but the Heroes of Azeroth don't count They're not part of the alliance military, they're just freelancing heroes! Maybe they'd help in a defensive war sure, but not in an invasion." And that seems sensible, but if you actually look into it, you'll see that it's kind of untrue. Heroes of Azeroth (that come from Alliance nations) are heavily entertwined with the Alliance military. Granted, they could probably easily go do their thing without it, but they just don't! They seem to be genuinely motivated by a patriotism! They not only work with the military to stop demon invasions and ends of the world and whatnot, but also willingly and frequently attack the Horde, both it's own HoAs and it's military instalations. They even willingly join regular military campaigns that aren't meant to repell any great threats, just to advance the faction's personal interests. Like in Pandaria or Battle for Azeroth. Many of the HoAs have genuine military ranks! And it's not like Alliance people don't already know that Horde is full of sentient beings that could be reasoned with! They learned that way back in Burning Crusade! They just don't care, they want their side to win! Anyway, it MAY be kinda like "unfair" or "not in spirit of the thought experiment" to include Heroes of Azeroth into this lineup, but I mean again, they ARE part of the lore and DO work for the Alliance army so... Karl Franz mythic raid boss?
1) He already said he only compared WC3. 2) Player characters only destroy bosses in massive groups of their own, so how many player characters are you assuming? 3) There are RPG variants of Warhammer. Are we including those two or can we simply conclude that you are an absurd fanboy?
1) ok 2) WoW lore is never clear on how many there are in cannon for ~Create an Illusion that each player's character is THE hero~ reasons, but there has to be at least 20 of them I feel like since that's the minimal group size for a raid. 3) There are RPG variants of Warhammer but the characters you can make in those aren't part of the official Warhammer cannon are they
@@IvanChernykh-bi4br 2) You are cherrypicking. You assume WOW heroes based on the game and then you go "hurr durr we are never sure how many they are". The fact is that IN GAME there are legions of them. Period. 3) Canon*. And OFC they are.
Man I don't even know what point you are trying to make haha, like, it makes sense that in cannon there wouldn't be hundreds of thousands heroes of azeroth and thousands of Lich Kings they've all nae naed on, I don't know why it wouldn't. But even if there WERE legions of them period, that wouldn't really help the Empire's chances any haha And also there is a tangible difference! To my knowledge, no warhammer lore materials mention random unnamed adventuring bands fucking with any of the major factions. And like why would they? imagine being a scaven player and reading in your new codex "And then some adventuring band appeared and killed Ikit claw, their designated melee fighter looted his armor set". That just wouldn't happen! Whereas in WoW cannon Heroes of Azeroth ARE what killed the Lich King, they ARE what killed Sargeros, Ragnaros and Deathwing. Meaning that while not every individual player character, but Heroes of Azeroth as a concept, ARE cannon.
If you included WoW though, Wrath of the Lich King era and after Alliance would wipe the floor with the Empire. The advancements in technology and magic alone would give The Alliance a massive advantage.
I did a bit of reading into what the alliance gets up to. I think their use of large airships would be extremely decisive and the empire, at that point, has no real counter to those kinds of things.
@@hardlyheroic114 That is not even the half of it. Do remember that in Warcraft 3, Steam Tanks / Siege Engines were nothing more than steam powered battering rams that would be next to useless in a fight vs enemy troops but are amazing for demolishing fortifications. By Wrath of the Lich King and in one certain quest at Redridge in Cataclysm, Alliance engineers have eliminated the that weakness and can make Steam Tanks into absolute horde killers (and by horde I mean both meanings to it).
@@alpotenciano4437 A lot of people accuse warhammer of being over the top. I think they're sleeping on warcraft being over the top and crazy. What is a guy with a sword going to do against a tank?
@@hardlyheroic114 Both are settings where guys with swords can take on a gunline survive and kill the gunners or knights with swords can charge in and wreck steam powered tanks though. Both the Empire and the Alliance still for the most part rely on guys with swords, spears bows and other medieval weapons along with the gunpowder and Steampunk tech but the Alliance by the time of Wrath of the Lich King and after absolutely outclasses the Empire in magic, technology and I also forgot to take into account aerial superiority.
Wc3? Yea probably not. In wc3 higher end Azerothian casters are more large island level of power, or at most continent level. Past that you have to look to powerful titans and demons. I am sure warhammer casters scale beyond that. But WoW? Magic gets pretty damn insane in WoW. We're talking planet busting magic within reach of mortals.
@@richardashendale922 Planet busting magic is within reach of mortals in Warhammer as well. With a sufficient ritual infact there is no upper limit. If the ritual is completed the desired effect takes place and cannot be stopped. Rituals can scale into the absurd with millions of deaths needed etc but it happens. Warhammer wizards have *way* more power, but there are way less of them and their power isn't safe like WoW mages. Need a clear answer on how Chaos works during the fight to decide anything. Cause if chaos just works then the Empire could just summon demons. If it doesn't work then their spells are all safe, so they just start blowing up cities and whole armies left and right with no fear of Curse of Tzeentch. If chaos *only* effects Warhammer wizards then 1 that's dumb, and 2 they probably lose. Too many WoW mages and Warhammer magic is too dangerous to use. I'd guess more Warhammer wizards blow themselves up or turn into chaos spawn than are defeated it combat...just like every other version of Warhammer.
@@Michael-bn1oi ok but planet busting magic in WoW doesn't require absurd rituals or millions of deaths to power them. In some cases, destroying the planet is merely the price paid to power a spell by one mere mortal. That actually goes all the way back to before Wc3. So saying warhammer magic is way more powerful is just absolutely disingenuous. Iirc doesn't the empire hate summoning demons? The alliance can summon demons of its own regardless. In wc3 it probably WOULDN'T because it's forbidden. In WoW? The rules are more flexible. It honestly isn't dumb for chaos to only affect warhammer wizards in this conflict, especially depending on the length and circumstances of the conflict. Warhammer casters wouldn't know about the alternative magic system the Alliance uses or how to train yourself in its use, and vice versa. Tzeentch and the Ruinous powers would have no claims to the magics or souls of Azeroth, so his influence would not impact Azerothians since the energies fueling their spells do not come from the warp... of course this depends on where the battles happen to an extent. If the Alliance is in the Warhammer world their access to their source of magic may be limited unless it spills through from their world and vice versa. In wc3, the magic used by the Alliance would be the Arcane, which calls upon energy that just exists in the world like an element such as air or water. In WoW, the alliance would also have druids and shamans which do not use the Arcane, and to a lesser degree, warlocks who do occasionally use Arcane energy, but mostly use energy from the Twisting Nether and the Void. Now if the conflict dragged on long enough.... things would get really screwy. Both sides would start learning how the magic of the other side works. The higher powers of both universes would start to take notice of one another, and the mortals of the each other's universe... the Ruinous Powers would likely start to clash with the higher forces of the WC universe. This would be a complicated situation. The magic of each universe works differently. Chaos would have no hold over the powers of the Arcane and the Nether, but I imagine Chaos would TRY to find some way to connect the warp to Azeroth's mortal souls and those energies of the Arcane and to the Nether, and other aspects of the WC universe, which in WoW would include the 6 universal forces of order, chaos, life, death, light, and darkness, and their respective dimensions, the Nether being one of which. Likewise, I imagine the higher forces of Warcrafts universe would have an interest in the warp. Most likely they'd realize it's not worth trying to conquer or use the Warp and just try to seal it from their universe. Though some might be more easilly persuaded to let the warp in... particularly demons of the Twisting Nether in wc3. In WoW entities from the Nether, shadowlands, elemental plane may all be willing to let the Warp in... but the bigger god-like forces of those realms (besides the elemental plane) would most likely scramble to shut that all down. In the interim, the Empire would probably try to learn how to use the magic of Azeroth since it's safer, essentially making the magic of the warp... meaningless. But it would take time for the Empire to learn to use the Arcane. Perhaps the Empire would learn of the other types of magic that are not connected to the Arcane such as shamanism and druidism, and the Holy Light. The relationship between the Arcane and the Nether and necromancy is a bit messier in wc3 than in current WoW. Like I said, a complicated situation. In closing? I do suspect a shorter conflict would see the Empire's casters lose this for the Empire. A longer one? If the Empire learns of, and masters the magics of the Warcraft Verse before they take too many impactful losses? The Empire not only could take the win, but could stand to benefit from being free from the influence of the Ruinous Powers... unless they warp manages to connect itself to the universe of Warcraft. Which could be argued to be possible.
The REAL question is how interactions would go between the higher forces in Warcraft either wc3 or WoW, and the Ruinous Powers. In wc3 it comes down to the Burning Legion, lead by Sargeras, or the Titans. No one else comes close to them in power. Sargeras in wc3 lore might actually help the Chaos Gods. He's... kinda hell-bent on destroying the universe, and the Chaos gods really seem to want to do that too. Sargeras would be a far far more enticing champion of Chaos Undivided than Archaon. Far more powerful on his own, and the Burning Legion would love the Warp, which is essentially the Twisting Nether, but created through the collective minds of mortal souls. Meanwhile, the rest of the Titans would most likely work against that with every fiber of their being, being entities that seem to like bringing order and peace to the universe... In WoW pretty much NONE of the gods of the big six universal forces would be willing to work with the Dark Gods, I am pretty sure. This includes Sargeras since WoW Sargeras actually only wants to destroy all LIFE in the universe, and wants to keep reality and an orderly universe intact. The rest of the Burning Legion and other denizens of the Twisting Nether however.... they might be down to bring the Warp into the universe. I suspect the Void would be a terrible threat to the Ruinous powers. Their realm consumes everything, and the mental capabilities of the Void Lords has been both stated and demonstrated to be infinite.... I fear the Void would consume the Warp, like 40k's Tyranid Hivemind, but worse, because the Void Lords don't simply have a feral cunning... they are basically Tzeentch, with a bigger appetite. All-consuming darkness and negativity, with infinite knowledge of all possible futures. The rest of the pantheons (of Light, Order, Life, and Death) would probably avoid having anything to do with Warp. They have a good thing going and are smarter than to trust or dabble in the destabilizing influence of the Warp.
I would argue that once you add in WoW Lore, ignoring player action, a lot of the advantages the Alliance has start to compound, after all the current Alliance in WoW is not a revival but a continuation, and while Blood/High Elves mostly ended up fading out, they were replaced by Night Elves, also Gnomes were formerly introduced into the alliance between WC3 and WoW, whereas before they were close allies. Additionally, Draenai and Worgen/Gilneans joined them in a more active manner once events had pushed them to crash land on Azeroth/actively participate in the world because Sylvanas is a fucking bitch and Garrosh is a warmonger. Also it should be noted that if the Empire were to invade Azeroth, wether in parts or as a whole, it seems likely that just like during the waning days of the 3rd War in WC3 Horde and Alliance would work together to defeat the threat, as they have done in basically every single Expansion of WoW, because afterall, the only people who are allowed to defeat the Alliance is the Horde and vice versa.
The Draenai and Wargon joining the alliance had nothing to do with Garrosh or Sylvanas? The Dreanai joined the Alliance while Thrall was still in power, and the Wargon joined with the Alliance due to the nightelves helping them control their wargon form... which is forbidden druid magic and independent of the actions of Garrosh and Sylvanas. In fact, if anyone gained allies due to one side being shit heads, it was the horde. The Horde got bloodelves due to the Alliance turning their back on them because of their mana addiction. And the horde got goblins due to Alliance hostility towards them when they had been a neutral faction.
@@Vorance the alliance turned their back on the blood elves for working with a demon and the naga. The Draenei also where going to consider talking to the orcs after they were slaughtered by them, the Worgen joined the alliance for the horde invading their homeland
