Why DUNE's Messiah Is A Lie? | Dune Explained 

Its a little bit more nuanced than this: Herbert asked is there an evolutionary quality rather than something continually manipulated or constructed via machines or ideologies that could lead humans to peace? The atrocities were happening continually and although spice had allowed Humans to free themselves from the enslavement by thinking machines they were no closer to producing and living in a truly egalitarian and peaceful societies. Spice, although its had given men, particularly almost god like visible powers with which to manipulate their own thinking processes, other men by force and cohesion by controlling fabric of space-time itself, it had also exposed their ruthless politician reflexes for power as they reverted back into a desperately brutal and cruel feudal existence, as baroque as it was.

That’s the thing about evil. The vast majority of villains aren’t evil for evils sake, they truly believe the are doing the right thing in their eyes.

@@ryanhampson673 true, evil hides behind good. Hiding even from itself.

It's certainly a trolley problem on a cosmic scale. Being omniscient and prescient on top of this doesn't mean the trolley is going to spare the most number of people. Especially if it means sacrificing ones family and beloved for the many. I mean, what monster would do that to kin and companion for complete strangers? A noble idiot likely would. Paul chose family. Leto the younger endeavoured to be free of such tyranny.

“Before man was, War waited for him”

Good catch my man. Lets keep them honest

Paul Atreides is ALSO a Hakkonnen LOL 😂 That would have been awkward

I mean, the BG are capable manipulators. I think they would have found a way, like they have done for millennia.

But its not the name he carries. Most royalties even in our time are relatives anyway. I think the Bene's have always worked to keep the power in balance, as they said the Atreides are getting defiant and they started building a military than can rival the Emperor's which is not good, the Harkonnens are sadists but they can be controlled. The movie didn't mention but I think in the book Duke Leto resents the Emperor for something resulting in tension between House Atreides and House Corrino.@@chasx7062

Nah, it probably would have worked. Leto would have agreed if it meant permanently ending the millennia long feud. It's still a feudal society, remember, and sacrifices like that have to be made for the good of the House.

They might as well live in Alabama.

This is literally the story of every religion

@@PearTree450 +1

​@@PearTree450please don't talk nonsense, I assume you haven't even explored religion, I suggest exploring islam and it's message and then tell me if it's made up or if it's the truth

@@omarbaasz Only thing islam has taught is terrorism and hatred against any non-muslim through jihad.

@omarbaasz I have same conclusion I'm afraid

This is a great way to describe the Bene Gesserit, but I don't believe they can really be described as completely cold and dispassionate, as that is our touch point for understanding how they understood the spice-induced cosmic Imperium and why they chose to breed a super being, with the qualities that they, as females, still processed: with human qualities. This comes about because the spice that had changed the course of human history and evolution had given males, with carefully controlled amounts, superhuman attributes with which they were able to spread across and then control the known universe. Where males were cerebrally and physically deformed by the consumption of spice in order to produce such powers, females instead were not despite being able to consume a more refined form of the spice, that gave them access to internal experiences as a form of prescient intuition from the genetic memories of all the other females who had lived before them. Their physiologies gave them psychic powers that males could not match and which would kill them if they consumed the same refined spice liquid, but that they themselves could not wield as a power in their own right. For instance, they could not be Guild Navigators; they could not fold space-time, nor could they match the Sardaukar, an order, as they were, in its own right. To wield power, the Bene Gesserit needed to access the very core of male being.

Yet it Paul who has *61 BILLION* people slaughtered to secure his place on the throne. So how are the BGs the bad guys?

@@daniels7907 The Bene Gesserit created Paul thru Jessica, its just that Jessica chose a Y chromosome from Leto instead X LOL

@@chasx7062 - So? Most of the Landsraad can say the same. The BG breeding program was aiming to create the Kwisatz Haderach, but a secondary goal was to advance evolution more generally. How else do you suppose that somebody like Feyd could even hope to challenge somebody like Paul? Answer: because Feyd was a product of the same breeding program. Most of the nobility was, along with commoners of genetic merit. The so-called "Jessica crime" was disobeying her orders out of love. Also, for inexplicable reasons, because Jessica *could* still have produced a daughter. Even normal women IRL don't usually wait 15 years between pregnancies. Remember that Jessica had control over her body and could have conceived and sex selected a female child at any point during those 15 years.

@@KymHammond their outward demeanour is more due to their discipline and conditioning. The Litany doesn't erase fear, it divorces their high cognition from the effect of terror. It certainly makes for someone very difficult to break. It also means it's near impossible for an acolyte to be in direct opposition to their overarching plans. In this manner they were TOO successful with Jessica. She was bred to have relentless ambition like her sire. The order never realised how far that actually was and the lengths she would go through for her children. Thus the impossible occurred many times with her.

Nope, that's got harkonnen written all over it. :)

The Bene Gesserit actually planned for you to write those words 6500 years ago

Only in that the superbeing would have "powers" that extend from themselves and thereby through him rule the universe. In their story universe the spice had already given humans god-like attributes like a prescient vision for safely navigating through folded space-time, so their breeding plan was not so far fetched or egotistically driven as it would be in our universe.

He was never meant to be a "god" outside of public relations. The *real* purpose of the Kwisatz Haderach was for the Sisterhood to gain a male BG who could both see the male line of Other Memory (which the sisters could not), as well as having a souped up version of the prescience possessed by Guild Navigators, allowing him to observe distant events and see the future. In this way, they hoped to be able to better plan the future of humanity. Remember that advancing human evolution was one of the BG's primary objectives. All those people with cool abilities were products of the BG breeding program, which was meant to maximize human potential.

@@daniels7907Agreed. Fixed. Spice was found to give males and females different attributes. Females are able to drink a refined liquid versions of the spice via the collected water of a drowned young worm which gave them access to their genetic memories. Males died from drinking it but in controlled environments and consumption were able to develop super human attributes.

@@KymHammond spice has nothing to do with folding space-time - thats a Lynch movie thing only. It allows for folding space time to be safer because the navigators can see briefly into the future using it, but the same general process was achieved with computers before they had been banned. Folding Space time though did not require spice.

@@stephengrant4841 by using the Holtzman generator. Yes..

Idk, in Dune and Dune Messiah many people in the know say he is the KH. They literally defined the KH as being the only being who can see all genetic history and Paul was the one to do that. The problem with all of these types of discussions is that there are legitimate flaws in the “in-universe logic” of all of this combine with real inconsistencies between books.

i was wondering how come feyd rautha didn't get the KH stuff? Who're his parents btw?

​@@lemon4087paul become KH after drinking elixir of life and survived.

"For all the power of the empire, mastery over memory, mind and body as well as time and space itself that all meant nothing in the face of the most powerful force in the universe that every human has - the power of choice." ... op do u know how metal that line is

@@strgrlszn Sometimes, very occassionally, the simple truth is awesome 😁

Noted!

You highlight some interesting points. Leto!! chose to exist in semi worm form - the makers of the spice - for protection, longevity and as a way of escaping the demands of human emotions that really weren't evolved to deal with the spice. The Kwisatz Haderach was intended to be a Bene Gesserit - i see him as a Krishna like figure - not to be manipulated by them but rather as part of them all sharing the genetic memories and god like prescience: they would then all be gods or have the same powers and be part of the same hive mind. Ali was the Bene. Gesserit who was meant to mate with Feyed-Rutha to produce the Kwisatz Haderach. Ali was the only Bene Gesserit who was able to share all the male memories as well as all the female memories.

Paul was too moral, or too weak, to fully embrace the Golden Path, he skirted it, but set the pieces. He couldn't see past the sacrifices needed to save humanity, and was burdened by the BG's betrayal of his father. I see him as an incredibly selfish, indecisive figure, strong enough to lead millions in a jihād, but too much of a coward to give them a future worthy of their deaths. He did however secure his children's place among the Fremen, by accepting his weakness and indirectly provide humanity the push they needed by allowing his son to do what he could not.

@@mdc3227 Don't forget that Paul is only a character in a novel who the author uses to talk about themes like power etc, rather than providing a simplistic narrative of heroism and salvation.

Nope, no such thing as a "kh", thats just BG shorthand for the current goal of their breeding plan. Leto II was more powerful for the simple reason that from his birth he benefitted from all the training and lessons that were evidenced from his father's life as a truely unique first of his kind individual and I'm sure alia's situation was in instructive too. What BG manipulation? if jessica had had a girl as per the plan, you think the bg would be able to "manipulate" the Harkonnen to not hate the atreides enough to forgo the blood feud or not scheme with the emperor to acquire access to the most valuable commodity EVER? you would probably all ready need to be a super being to suppose you can do that. Jessica does not have an ego problem, she loved her man and said fxxk the party (as in political) Family first bitchs ! paul had no balls for the golden path because no one ever in the entirety of huumon existence, has ever had the balls. paul grew up normal (elite normal, I guess) until he was 15 and only then would he be taken out of his comfort zone and clue in to what would be necessary to avoid huumon extinction by going down the golden path ie. -living long enough and being strong enough to cope with living that long to bring about the conditions to make the scattering come to pass thus avoiding extinction. Not until leto II, a pre born, a male abomination helen would say, with no conception of sweet fxxk all, except through other memory, picks up that load and makes it his own, brings a tear to my eye thinking of that boy and his sacrifices. cheers

I love chatGPT in the way that lazy RU-vidrs got more lazy and made it apparent by using chatGPT and people that are passionate about the story keep making amazing content like this

Thanks a Iot! Yes I deleted some old vids. I wasn't super happy with how they turned out, but I'd love to try remaking them sometime and do a better job.

The BG seemed to have been trying to actualize the Platonic figure but the Nietzschean one is what they created.

love the ayaka pfp while delivering dune's crazy lore 😭

art imitates life 😉

You aren't quite right at the end. True that anyone can be a kwisatz haderach - if they have the right genes for it, like Paul and Leto did. The generational waiting list was necessary - without them mixing the genes like they did, there would never have been a man able to be prescient to that extent and also survive the Water of Life and the bene Gesserit version of it.

but the eugenics do play a huge role in the making of KH, just like we have evolved from our ancestors to have the strongest genes to adapt to harsh changes in our environment! :DD (p.s. this not darwin from a burner account, trust me)

Pure semantics? The three abrahamic ? religions of Christianity, Judaism and Islam stem from the same monolithic God? They only differ in prophets & messiah? The KH & LAG are essentially the same Messiah that the BG were waiting for. They just repurposed their god for the fremen. just like if the Romans repurposed the Egyptian god horus as Jesus christ?

@@chasx7062 except the Bene Gesserit don’t care about the Lisan Al Gaib and it wasn’t supposed to have any actual significance outside of being a way to one day manipulate the Fremen, if necessary. And the KH isn’t a god to them, or a messiah. That would be the wrong terminology. Have you read the book? They didn’t repurpose the KH and redress it as the LAG - again, they were supposed to be completely unrelated.

Not quite. The questions Herbert asks about God pertain to power and human essentialism, not faith.

@@KymHammond Human Hubris always puts themselves above God and why they ALWAYS fail. YOU see when they respect the Worm God, they survived, when they worshipped Paul, their victories led to their downfall.

From my understanding, he isn’t. But if he was willing to sacrifice everything, he would be. It was a conscious decision by him to not become what he could’ve

he is in theory (the shortening og the way) he can see psst and future, but not work the way the bg intended, his son is a better KH in my opinion he chooses to follow the path that helps humanity

He is in that he can do what the Bene Gesserit wanted the Kwisatz Haderach to do. He just isn't the Lsian al Gaib because that was a fake story. Those two titles are completely separate things.

Paul is a pre mature KH but he refused the Golden Path. He technically wasn't supposed to exist.

@@stephengrant4841the result of his actions was to fulfill the fake prophecy, in a sense he made it a true prophecy in hindsight.

Spreading human stupidity across the universe may be Elon musk's wet dream for money laundering, but not good for humanity

@@chasx7062 The amount of stupid in this phrase is flabbergasting.

@@shadowbandit3975 why dont i see my reply? has it been censored?LOL

@@shadowbandit3975 did i say some about elon musk for his cult to delete my post??? LOL

The Last Jedi?? LOL

The point is there are no good guys in Dune whatsoever, Atreides may look like them in comparison to Harkonnens only. BG main objective was to reach peak of human potential and leave humanity as something far superior it ever was, but it doesn't mean they were benevolent order of loving nuns.

yet they're the inadvertent victors of the story, they achieved their goals of peak human existence and removing the threat of their extinction (the scattering) 😉

Change of plans. Also paul was not the only person who could be ancestor to the kwisatz haderach. The other one was the nephew of baron harkonnen, and they collected his seed between the movies to make sure they can continue their plan (it get some screentime in the book). At this point paul was a liability.

Well the Space Karens couldnt control Paul, so he was NOT their puppy kwisatz haderach, so he needed to die... Question is why didnt they control Jessica to control Paul? Villeneuve's movie made it seem that Jessica was the driving force for Paul's vengeance

Not all Bene Gesserit had female, some has sons. And those that were born all needed to be tested for their prescient abilities: to be able to handle pain and to test the strength of their minds so that they could be used in the breeding program. In a dropped scene after Paul kills Feyed-Rutha a cousin of the emperors steps forward to try and kill Paul. Paul immediately recognizes him as another like himself so Jessica/s choice to have a son was an extreme gamble. Moheim chose to recognize Paul as he passed the test. The Bene Gesserit wanted to kill him as he was showing up in their visions as a disruption to the breeding plan and the stability of the Empire

Nobody answered my question lolz…..Why did the Bene Gessesit order to kill the Paul and the atreides while also not wanting Paul or Jessica harmed?? Like moheim says in Part 2 that she ordered the emperor to give spice control to the Atreides because they wanted Paul dead but then in part 1 she is very clear “they are under our protection”

@@Game_Invasion The Bene Gesserit were schemers, the space karen's lied all the time to mind trick their acolytes !!! Of course they didnt want to kill Jessica... i believe in the books it was the spacing Guild who wanted to kill Paul coz they saw him as the bigger threat than his father

Herbert did not write Paul as a villain. Have you read the book?

He wrote the book as a love letter to his wife. It's as much Jessica's journey as Paul's. She inadvertently triggered the entire cosmic tragedy. And while Paul has qualities of Paragon and Pariah, he's chosen to preserve the lives of those he loves above the unnumbered billions. There's no limit to atrocity when committed out of love. That's the warning. A trolley problem with an omnipotent tyrant preserving what matters to him to the detriment of everything else.

@@mrbluebell2735 hmmm The HighTowers in the Dance of the Dragon?

@@poisonapleproduction - In a famous quote, Herbert said that charismatic leaders should come with the warning label, “may be dangerous to your health.”

@@daniels7907 never read the book? Then how do you know Paul is the villain? Tiktok?

The imperium is the villain in exactly the same way it remains today.

No, they actually weren't. That's an idea that comes more from the film adaptations more than from the novel series. Paul is a crybaby because Reverend Mother Mohiam made him undergo the test of humanity, which *all* Bene Gesserit have to undergo, and Paul had received BG training. Because Mohiam actually preferred that Paul survive the conspiracy against House Atriedes, after the test she instructs Jessica to skip ahead in Paul's BG training because Mohiam feels that he will need to have the Voice. Note that by this point everybody (including Paul) knows that this relocation to Arrakis is a trap. Duke Leto simply chose to face it head-on, rather than take the House and flee into exile. Yes, the BGs would turn against Paul. Given that he unleashed a jihad that killed *61 BILLION people* is that really the wrong thing to do? Alia really did suffer from abomination, so was it wrong for the Sisterhood to be worried about that too?

@@daniels7907Paul's mistrust of the sisterhood at the time of his testing comes from his father and other teachers. He most likely understood that his mother was meant to have a daughter.

@@KymHammond - That doesn't mean that the Sisterhood wanted Paul dead (at first). Nor Jessica and Leto really. Indeed, Jessica *did* conceive a daughter (Alia) just before the attack on House Atriedes. The BG breeding program could still achieve its goals. Paul was bitter about the test, even though *all* BGs have to do it. He also resented their closeness to the Emperor, and he had unrealistic expectations as to just how overtly they could manipulate the Emperor. Basically, Paul just wanted to blame *somebody* for Imperial court intrigues and he didn't want to blame his father, who led the House to Arrakis despite being fully aware that it was a trap. Indeed, that it was a trap was the worst kept "secret" in the Imperium.

@@daniels7907Never mentioned the order wanting Paul dead. Jessica conceived after Paul was tested and had survived. When exactly is not known. A bit late to try and get the breeding program back on track when they had already backed the move. Insisting on Paul's petulance is a strange remove from the story.

no, breeding humans and creating a super-human is an extreme idea.

Spice is the most important substance in the universe, without it there would be no revered mothers (they need spice in their creation). It is extrem important therefore having a strong grip on it is necessary.

Spice gave humans superhuman abilities with which to defeat the robot machine and then to manipulate the very fabric of space-time itself. The spice is the substance that all humans now rely on for maintaining power.

@@uwesca6263 so how did they know/ensure that the kwisach would end up on arrakis? Was it coincidental that the emperor sent the atreides to arrakis or did the Bene gesserit “guide” that to test if Paul was the one?

@@sarasweet3578 it was a plan in the making for thousand of years. I suppose the original idea was to have the kwisach being born and molded by the bene gesserit and than enter arakis as their prophesized messiah. With this the fremen would immediatly follow the kwisach and kick of anyone who currently rule over arrakis giving the sisterhood the sole power of spice. And with their widespread network of agents and the strongest army there is they could ruled the known universe. That paul ended up on arrakis was kinda surprising. But the emperor sent leto to death for his extrem charisma, charisma strong enough that a bene gesserit gave him a son despite not allowed to do so by her order. You see the emperor ordered his with of giving him a son, which she refused. So leto could make something even the emperor could not. This among other things marked leto for death.

@@uwesca6263 okay I see. Thank you for your responses !

It is the inner human dimensions that the Bene Gesserit and the Kwisatz Haderach share through prescience which is spiritually associated with the Golden Path, as the salvation for humanity. The Kwisatz Haderach is a savoir in the sense that his becoming makes it possible for the Bene Gesserit to action the Golden Path. At this point however and had his becoming happened at the right moment they all would have been sharing a God like consciousness. Paul is only a Messiah really for the Freman based on the myths and prophecies the Bene Gesserit has spread so that they could work safely. For the Freman the prophesies for filled their collective desire for a home world paradise that they were willing to fight as an army for.

LITERALLY, i want a fanon piece where that happens so bad

I will make a video about it!

To "teach humanity a lesson that they will remember in their bones": that sheltered safety was tantamount to utter death, however long it would be delayed. In essence, another breeding program LOL with a special gene to prevent people with Prescience from manipulating people and seeing the future. Also involving terraforming Arrakis, thus killing the worms and curtailing space travel. This Oppression made people more curious and eager to explore so when Leto II finally dies as determines, his death will trigger baby worms from his body to turn Arrakis back into the desert and produce spice again and allow humanity to explore far and wide to escape from oppression and future tyrants... (Although this is just Elon Musk wet dream to spread Human Stupidity across the Universe)

He kinda did. In the later books set several thousand years after Paul was alive, the Fremen are dirt beggars.

@@stephengrant4841he didn’t he’ll Leto is half fremen